And, of course, this article isn't really a lecture aimed at Iran. The argument has no power — I assume — to persuade Iran that that there are 2 different kinds of speech, that one can tout free-speech values about one and not the other, and it's hypocrisy to regard the 2 kinds of speech as the same. It's an argument aimed at those of us who support free speech and think it's hypocrisy not to protect the offense to religion and hate speech and lies about history.
[W]hile Holocaust denial didn't begin with Iran, Tehran's contribution to the practice has been especially shameful... Iran's Holocaust cartoon contest arrives amid worsening anti-Semitism across Europe.... The Iranians who organized the cartoon contest believe that shunning Holocaust denial means Western commitment to free speech is shallow. The real hypocrisy, though, is that by the deliberate offense of the world's Jewish population, the cartoonists are mocking a group that in many ways is as threatened and marginalized as they are.Charlie Hebdo deliberated offended Muslims, so how is Iran hypocritical to "mocking a group that in many ways is as threatened and marginalized as [Muslims] are? I don't see an argument based on hypocrisy. I see an (undeveloped) argument that Muslims ought to identify with Jews.
ADDED: What would it take to develop that identification argument? How would you paraphrase what the Atlantic writer, Matt Schiavenza, is saying to Muslims? It's something I hesitate to put into words.
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It seems to me that Muslims are often marginalized in Western Culture precisely because of things like Holocaust denial. Wide brush, but.
I am Laslo.
Did any Jews kill the "artists"?
Muslims will never get it. Cartoons about the silliness of others' belief systems is protected speech under any freedom of speech commitment. That is healthy whether a Priestly class fears losing respect or not.
What is prohibited is erasing of historical data of genocide that arose from Priestly classes tacit approvals. That also is healthy whether a priestly class fears losing respect or not.
And tell me again why possessing a Bible is a capital offense in Muslim lands.
I don't see this contest as a spotlight on Jews nor do I see Matt giving a message to Muslims, nor do I see a "wide brush."
In effect, the act of humor/mockery brings Iranians to the same level of discourse as the Dutch and French cartoonists.
The Iranian regime is now painting a target on its back, one that Rouhani tried to erase with his new position on the Holocaust.
This will be interesting.
Schiavenza writes "the cartoonists are mocking a group that in many ways is as threatened and marginalized as they are."
Right now the biggest threat I see to Muslims is other Muslims -- ISIS, the judicial system of Saudi Arabia, etc; they see their biggest threat as the Jews.
So:
"How would you paraphrase what the Atlantic writer, Matt Schiavenza, is saying to Muslims?"
I'd like to buy the World a Coke.
I am Laslo.
How are Muslims threatened and marginalized when they are a growing immigrant population in the West?
It sucks they have to emigrate in the first place, but they have chosen to immigrate to places where gay rights is a pretty big deal these days.
Were the Irish threatened and marginalized when they immigrated or were they just new people to America who needed time to get on their feet in a new land?
Why aren't people immigrating to Iran, or hell, China?
"How would you paraphrase what the Atlantic writer, Matt Schiavenza, is saying to Muslims?"
"Can't you see that you're all just oppressed little brown people together?"
I'd have to agree with the Iranians here – I don't see how Charlie Hebdo-style offensive speech is more worthy of protection than Iranian-style offensive speech.
I thought Iran was The House of Cartoon.
Contest is not really tit for tat.
Give Piss Christ shot..
What is the point of denying an event that has so much historical evidence to the contrary?
France does not have ‘freedom of speech’ so much as it has hate speech laws
Link shows some of the Holocaust Denial cartoons
No one has been murdered over these cartoons.
House of Cartoon Facebook has some interesting cartoons of O-man published on behalf of other cartoonists.
Nothing recent.
I assume it is a legitimate site.
Give Piss Christ a shot..
I'm sure the Iranians are very upset with the criticism and plan to cancel the contest.
Hashtag diplomacy.
I think that Schiavenza is saying that if the Iranians want to to make it illegal, in the West, to offend Muslim sensibilities, they have to stop denying the holocaust.
"But there's a difference between drawing an offensive caricature and participating in the negation of an established historical fact."
Muslims consider the existence of Muhammad, and his status as the last prophet of God to be 'established historical fact'.
"How would you paraphrase what the Atlantic writer, Matt Schiavenza, is saying to Muslims?"
On the other hand, I'm not sure you can paraphrase his argument at all. He's babbling nonsense because of the incoherence of his worldview.
I've always thought it peculiar that anti-Semites deny the Holocaust. You'd think they would applaud it. In fact they do applaud it. But it didn't happen and is all a Jewish trick. Strange people, the anti-Semites.
I have to agree with Pace Wove. I had a hard time extracting much from the article other than the basic fact of the cartoon contest and Holocaust denial. Each outrageous act committed by a Muslim jihadist lessens any sympathy that I might otherwise generate for such a backward people.
I would like to see/hear some active, very public denial of sympathy for these acts from our immigrant Muslim communities. On the other hand I relish any discomfort that visits the Saudis, if ISIS went after them I would have a hard time deciding who to root for.
Lets see the cartoons. And then lets see the reaction of jews. My guess is we won't get the same reaction. And I'm willing to put down money on my bet.
If Sharia Law dictates that you can never depict Mohammed, eat pork, celebrate Christmas, etc..
Then we are told to comply by the left as to not offend muslims...
Then, is that not forcing a Christian nation to live under muslim rule?
I like how the French are the ones who publish the cartoons, but Iran immediately goes to the anti-Semitism in response.
"ADDED: What would it take to develop that identification argument?"
He would have to somehow eliminate any last, lingering clues he might have. Tough question. Maybe it should be multiple choice;
A Strong drink?
B Sleep deprivation?
C Radical brain surgery?
D Grad School?
How would you paraphrase what the Atlantic writer, Matt Schiavenza, is saying to Muslims? It's something I hesitate to put into words.
Understandably, because it's bigoted and self-serving- "Hey, Muslims, c'mon, bros. We all know that the real bad guys are the (kafir, gentile) Europeans, but nonetheless how dare you challenge my superior victim-privilege (insert inane sophistry re free speech and 'established historical fact')".
"the French are the ones who publish the cartoons, but Iran immediately goes to the anti-Semitism in response."
It makes sense to me, given that France has laws specifically criminalizing Holocaust denial. (And that there is an immense reservoir of antisemitism in the Muslim world.)
Memo to Iran House of Cartoon.... Holocaust satire and holocaust denial satire has been done.
It does show how wise Eisenhower was to insist on making movies of the camps and forcing the Germans to walk through the camps and see what their leaders had done. A local Mayor and his wife committed suicide after the walk through the camp.
There is no parallel. There are 1.2 billion Muslims. They aren't marginalized or threatened. They've just made a couple century's worth of self-defeating stupid decisions so they look pathetic in comparison. The day they decide to think smarter they'll be on the road to bettering their lot. It's up to them as to when that day comes. So far, they are not off to a good start.
"The day they decide to think smarter they'll be on the road to bettering their lot. It's up to them as to when that day comes."
You really think that 13 centuries of marrying your first cousins can be overcome that easily?
I seem to recall Israeli cartoonists getting enthusiastically into the spirit of the thing and producing their own anti-Semitic cartoons. The best and only proper response, I think.
Jews have been marrying their first cousins longer than Muslims have been around. There are a few genetic disorders that Jews have because of it--tay sachs disease for example. Otherwise what it has done is concentrate good genes. In-breeding is dangerous only if you are in-breeding inferior stock.
"Otherwise what it has done is concentrate good genes. In-breeding is dangerous only if you are in-breeding inferior stock."
Bingo !
You have hit the truth, professor. Fortunately, interspecies breeding is not possible or the middle east would have a large population of smart goats.
ah yes, liberal scolds explaining something. That should put a stop Iraning aspirations of nuclear weapons and regional hegemony.
"Why aren't people immigrating to Iran, or hell, China?"
I don't know about Iran or China, but people migrate to Hell every day.
The real hypocrisy, though, is that by the deliberate offense of the world's Jewish population, the cartoonists are mocking a group that in many ways is as threatened and marginalized as they are.
Wait, the Jews are as threatened as the cartoonists, or as Muslims? Neither makes very much sense--the Muslim cartoonists aren't threatened and the Muslims keep reminding us that there're more than a billion of 'em...does that sentence make sense to anyone?
When I was a teen-ager I thought it was clever to say, I don't care if a joke is funny, so long as it's dirty. Now I suppose I could act Iranian and say, I don't care if a cartoon is funny, so long as it's anti-semitic.
I'm open-minded: Show me a funny cartoon that mocks the Holocaust, and I'll laugh.
The equivalent to mocking Islam and its prophet would be mocking Jewish religious observance or scripture.
Then again, Jewish religious observance doesn't include anything like jihad, so perhaps it's not so equivalent after all. About the closest you'd come might be a cartoon mocking a God who would ask a father (Abraham) to sacrifice his son?
And (need it be said?) it's also different because everyone knows Jews aren't going to respond to a cartoon by murdering the cartoonists, let alone murdering whoever they might find in a halal grocery.
Pretending the Holocaust did not happen, or that there's something funny about mass murder and attempted genocide, is a just very long way from making fun of someone's religious faith or practice.
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