"Texas students shouldn't lose instruction time for holding gun-shaped Pop-Tart snacks at school," said Guillen. "This bill will fix this."This bill will fix this. That's what they always say. This will fix that. There's a problem, so accept the solution I have right here. Don't look at my solution and imagine new problems. Just look at the problem, the terrible problem, the thing that happened that one time in Maryland...
December 13, 2014
Texas state legislator files a bill prohibiting schools from punishing students who engage in pretend gun play.
"Rep. Ryan Guillen... said he filed the bill after a second- grader in suburban Maryland was suspended for two days in March 2013 for chewing his Pop-Tart into the shape of a gun."
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43 comments:
When the only tool you know is a hammer, every problem is a nail.
I'm opposed to such laws, or rather, I'm irritated that such laws are necessary, or at least thought by some to be necessary. Schools are increasingly not allowed to use judgement and common sense in running their affairs, as more and more mandates descend from on high.
It wasn't just one time.
On the other hand, there is no "fix" for this level of foolish stupidity.
The law they should be passing should be a repeal: Get rid of the institutional policy of "Zero Tolerance" that is where this all came from. It was never anything but a way to institutionalize leftist indoctrination with the added benefit of letting school authorities off the hook for having to make any type of reasoned judgment. Public schools have practically become children's prison nowadays.
It is ironic that this type of legislation is typical in Maryland. Sixty Minutes once ran a story on women grabbing somebody else's infants and breastfeeding them; a bill was introduced the following day to ban the practice. I thought writing a law to cover weird circumstances was a liberal Democratic Party trait, and--mirabile dictu!--Rep. Guillen is a Democrat.
Too many stupid cases like this and we are supposed entrust our children to these idiot "educators"? The following case is about a boy using his FINGER as a weapon!
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2014/03/04/boy-who-used-finger-like-gun-suspended.html
It seems like a better law is to outlaw 'zero tolerance' rules in schools.
It is curious that puplic schools are managed by the most educated managers of almost any proffession, and yet leap to 'zero tolerance' as a way to avoid being held accountable for their actions.
How about a bill to fire school officials that are criminalizing how boys play?
Yep -- zero tolerance really means zero judgment. People are so terrified of having to make a decision that they'd rather follow rigid rules to stupid conclusions.
But the Texas bill follows the typical legislative syllogism:
Something must be done!
X is something.
Therefore, X must be done.
Three-day waiting period to munch a Pop Tart.
Here in Texas, with a Concealed Handgun Licence, one can skip the NICS check for firearm purchases, but we still don't have Open Carry.
The parallel legal structure for Pop Tart gnawing might include a note from one's dentist and enough wax paper to avoid getting one's pockets sticky from the filling.
Brandishing is brandishing, no matter the filling, the species of tree from which the stick was taken, or the manufacturer of the squirt gun.
Don't mess with Texas. Or the Texans will mess with you.
There's a problem, so accept the solution I have right here. Don't look at my solution and imagine new problems. Just look at the problem, the terrible problem, the thing that happened that one time in Maryland...
Isn't that exactly the argument that the idiots who passed the original law in Maryland used?
And suspending and expelling kids (usually boys) for asinine reasons like poptart play guns happens all the time in the blue states.
"Too many stupid cases like this and we are supposed entrust our children to these idiot "educators"? The following case is about a boy using his FINGER as a weapon!"
It doesn't matter whether there is a real weapon or not. What matters is what the school's disciplinary rules are. If it establishes a rule that no one should engage in pretend play that exhibits threat and violence, then the children should be expected to live up to that standard.
What level of discipline do you want at your child's school? Some parents and citizens prefer more discipline.
Being required to stay in your seat is tough, but it's a rule that is often applied.
Maybe more school choice is the best answer. Assuming choice, what do you choose for your child. I'll bet most parents would choose zero tolerance (even if they might bitch to the press if their child violated the rule and got suspended).
There's a problem, so accept the solution I have right here. Don't look at my solution and imagine new problems.
You seem to be attempting to draw a parallel between the sort of ridiculous demagogues people like you fell for in 2008 - and will again in 2016 - who proposed to use legislation to fix human nature, and this Representative who wants to enact a ban on a specific and irrational practice by government employees. Your attempt fails.
Or maybe I'm just not trying hard enough to "imagine new problems". The new problems that will be caused by prohibiting schools from punishing students who engage in pretend gun play. What new problems will emerge if children are allowed to play with pretend guns at school in a manner in which children were allowed to play for the duration of the 19th and 20th centuries?
Just look at the problem, the terrible problem, the thing that happened that one time in Maryland
"The incident was soon followed by similar cases in Virginia and Florida, where students were punished for mimicking gunplay with their fingers or toys."
Serves Big Brother right for being such a pig about child's play.
Althouse: "It doesn't matter whether there is a real weapon or not."
This is Liberalism distilled to its 190 proof finest. It doesn't matter what the facts are.
The problem is the rule, not a zero tolerance policy. Although, it seems reasonable and rational not to make a mountain out of a molehill. The response to violation of any rule should be proportionate to the consequences of the behavior circumscribed.
A proclamation from the Legislature, with verbal agreement from the Governor, would be appropriate.
A bill that might have some effect would be one that requires a rough equality in the number of male and female teachers.
Ann Althouse said...
"Too many stupid cases like this and we are supposed entrust our children to these idiot "educators"? The following case is about a boy using his FINGER as a weapon!"
It doesn't matter whether there is a real weapon or not. What matters is what the school's disciplinary rules are. If it establishes a rule that no one should engage in pretend play that exhibits threat and violence, then the children should be expected to live up to that standard. "
Rules defined by whom? People with an ideological agenda or with a CYA agenda? The only law needed is to remove from these officials immunity from their actions. Let them be personable liable for their conduct and this kind of stupidity largely disappears.
and administrators.
"Or maybe I'm just not trying hard enough to "imagine new problems". The new problems that will be caused by prohibiting schools from punishing students who engage in pretend gun play."
I'm picturing a disruptive student who gets expelled for bad behavior where one element was that he was brandishing something gun like and his parents, mad that he was expelled, waste the taxpayers' money by suing the school on the ground that the statute was violated.
I'm also picturing kids with toy gun, displaying them roguishly, in mockery of teachers who can't touch them because some nitwits in the state legislature passed a law.
"Or maybe I'm just not trying hard enough to "imagine new problems". The new problems that will be caused by prohibiting schools from punishing students who engage in pretend gun play."
I'm picturing a disruptive student who gets expelled for bad behavior where one element was that he was brandishing something gun like and his parents, mad that he was expelled, waste the taxpayers' money by suing the school on the ground that the statute was violated.
I'm also picturing kids with toy gun, displaying them roguishly, in mockery of teachers who can't touch them because some nitwits in the state legislature passed a law.
'Ann Althouse said...
"Too many stupid cases like this and we are supposed entrust our children to these idiot "educators"? The following case is about a boy using his FINGER as a weapon!"
It doesn't matter whether there is a real weapon or not. What matters is what the school's disciplinary rules are. If it establishes a rule that no one should engage in pretend play that exhibits threat and violence, then the children should be expected to live up to that standard.
What level of discipline do you want at your child's school? Some parents and citizens prefer more discipline.
Being required to stay in your seat is tough, but it's a rule that is often applied.
Maybe more school choice is the best answer. Assuming choice, what do you choose for your child. I'll bet most parents would choose zero tolerance (even if they might bitch to the press if their child violated the rule and got suspended).
12/13/14, 9:38 AM'
This an interesting point of view. My daughter went to a Montessori school until eight grade. When allowed outside for recess they were a bunch of little savages. no attempt was made to edit the kinds of play except if things got physical. Yes they played "war" or "cops and robbers" with whatever high caliber weapon the school yard and their imaginations provided.
It is very important for a childs' mental development for these childhood fantasies to play themselves out. To hinder them is to face development problems later on.
Idiots. But it is Texas, the fertile ground for idiots.
Vicki from Pasadena
I think the grownups kept more track of us than we knew, but they did not interfere unless things clearly got out of whack - and I do mean clearly.
But schools today are not schools, they are factories.
And run by moms who think "something should be done" to make rocks softer so that their little dumplings won't hurt themselves on, or with, them.
I am picturing a world of vouchers where school choice allows parents to select away from public schools. Raise the costs, financial and otherwise, and people will select other options decreasing the size and scope of governmental control if we are fortunate.
Vicki dear,
Folks who live in rock houses should not throw glass!
Are students expelled for promoting pro-choice or reenacting premeditated abortion? If the issue is violence, then there are more human lives sacrificed in planned parenthood rituals through lethal injection, decapitation, or dismemberment. Perhaps the difference is that guns are noisy and violate privacy screens.
Anyway, the issue is not gun reenactments, but disruptive behaviors. The original intolerance of the former, clouded the actual issue, and invited a new rule.
The law is silly, there was a perfectly reasonable answer to the Maryland debacle. Just execute the principal, the whole teaching staff, the schoolboard and anyone who trained any of the above.
I'm fine with schools making rules against pretend guns as long as there's no gender discrepancy in the suspensions.
Ann Althouse said...
"Maybe more school choice is the best answer. Assuming choice, what do you choose for your child. I'll bet most parents would choose zero tolerance (even if they might bitch to the press if their child violated the rule and got suspended)."
This is the only real answer.
And my kids would go to the school with combat classes and gun safety classes. If there isn't one I might just try to start one.
It doesn't matter whether there is a real weapon or not.
Wut?
victoria: "Idiots. But it is Texas, the fertile ground for idiots."
Enough about Wendy Davis already!
While we are on it, having someone from CA call other states fertile ground for idiots is simply too rich for words.
Drago (3:05 pm) wins the thread!
"I'm also picturing kids with toy gun, displaying them roguishly, in mockery of teachers who can't touch them because some nitwits in the state legislature passed a law."--Ann Althouse
If your kid does this, "rogueish" pointing of a toy gun, like some black kid we could mention, at someone, who didn't know it was a toy, I got no problem with the teacher, the cops, or the kid beside them shooting their ass. Your genes won't be missed.
You don't realize how rough housing by very young boys even of five or so can be seen as a sign of mental disorder so that they can be suspended, expelled or drugged as a condition of not being expelled. Things that are unacceptable - such as knocking other kids down - are no longer treated by getting parents to punish their children. No, now everyone "understands" and what they understand is that some violent psychopathology in at work and that a professional psychologist is needed. So minor roughhouse by a young boy is very dangerous to that boy. This is the problem the lawmaker is trying to meet and it's bigger than anyone who doesn't have young kids in school right now can believe.
That said I agree that the law should take aim at "zero tolerance" as a whole.
No Drago,
I was talking about Rick Perry.
I'd put up any Californian against any Texan. People are still moving to California in droves.
Vicki from Pasadena
victoria: "No Drago,
I was talking about Rick Perry."
Oh, well then you're an idiot.
victoria: "I'd put up any Californian against any Texan."
Having lived for extended periods of time in both places, I'd have to say you would be mistaken to do so.
victoria: "People are still moving to California in droves."
Check the growth in state populations and you'll see that Texas is gathering up greater numbers of "droves" than California. That is not necessarily a good thing from a Texas perspective though.
More importantly, since the insane morons you've voted into office have put in place hilariously stupid rules/regulations/policies, more than a few companies have decided its time to high-tail it outta CA.
Toyota for one:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/04/28/toyota-move-texas/8358361/
Some businesses of course, cannot easily transplant primary operations. But a lot of those are building up subsidiary/divisional ops in other states. Hence the large migration of company assets/operations to Utah, Arizona, Colorado, Nevada etc.
But hey, whatever. Those are just "facts". We have seen clearly in recent weeks what the left thinks of those "things".
What new problems will emerge if children are allowed to play with pretend guns at school in a manner in which children were allowed to play for the duration of the 19th and 20th centuries?
Hell for most of that time kids in many parts of the country brought real guns to school, and hunted on the way there and the way home.
victoria said...
"No Drago,
I was talking about Rick Perry.
I'd put up any Californian against any Texan. People are still moving to California in droves."
Only a moby trying to make Californians look dumb would post something so easily refuted. The only people moving TO California are from Mexico. Educated productive people not so much.
While it may have been 'one time', but that one time was not isolated to one rogue administrator. A lot of these policies are written approved and applied by a whole host of bureaucrats. When the failing and wrongness of the policy comes to light, it's easy enough to say 'oops', but where was the logical thinking when they made it up in the first place?
There shouldn't be a need for a law like this, but it demonstrates that the state when you have to make laws indicating it not a crime to do a certain thing.
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