Writes Josh Barro in "Don’t Want Me to Recline My Airline Seat? You Can Pay Me."
So stop worrying that you're bothering anybody that hasn't offered you money to stop doing that. [About anything. Not just on airplanes.] And await the day when we'll all be able to raise money by going about annoying people doing anything short of what gets us arrested or sued in tort.
And I don't think I'm contradicting all the many economics-y things I said in the comments to that other post today about reclining airline seats:
[T]he airline, it has chosen to go for quantity not quality, and it's trying to get as many buyers as it can get by lowering the prices and making the seat space as small as it can be. As long as people keep buying the cheap seats and scorning the expensive seats, these people are all making the bed in which they lie.And:
My reaction is: You people all deserve each other, and I don't want to be anywhere near you. I'll save all my money and stay out of your planes.
[D]on't express emotion through violence because you're frustrated about annoyances, especially the routine annoyances that are bundled into the low price you shopped for.And:
Some airlines have [made the seats nonreclinable], so maybe the market will produce this solution… if it's what the consumer really wants.ADDED: Josh Barro writes about economics in The New York Times, but his degree is a bachelor's in psychology.
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55 comments:
Uber librul Barro thinks he is being clever.
Ann, I think you are off base on this one. He is not doing an annoying thing to be annoying. He is utilizing the features of the space he purchased. If, instead he had his head-phones on and was loudly singing along with the music he was listening to and when asked to stop, replied "pay me". I think that would be appropriate to your comment.
"So stop worrying that you're bothering anybody that hasn't offered you money to stop doing that. And await the day when we'll all be able to raise money by going about annoying people doing anything short of what gets us arrested or sued in tort."
I have rarely had anyone complain to me about my seat recline
Because some people feel like it would be impolite to do so? These are probably also the same people who think you are being impolite by not asking.
The airline did not decide to go for quantity over quality. Customers decided they would shop for airline tickets primarily based on price. To ignore customer demands in a competitive environment is to invite bankruptcy.
Also 'rarely' means that some have. So! Some are complaining and some are silently seething. (and some dont' care, probably)
When I read the sort, the water throwing woman is the bad guy. What right did she have to escalate so much? She sounds like one of those smug liberals who cling to their moral superiority and righteous indignation the way conservatives cling to guns and religion.
Start a Stop the Seat Reclining movement. Boycott airlines until they:
1. install Knee Defenders on all seats, or
2. install Knee Defenders on specified rows of seating, providing a price break to passengers selecting non-reclining seats.
If airlines decide to use Knee Defenders, let me know if I can buy stock in the company.
How much will Josh Barro pay me not to pour water on his head?
I don't think I follow this.
The reclining seat comes with the ticket sold by the airline, and the occupant is entitled to take advantage of it.
If I am the passenger in the seat behind him, I will indeed become annoyed and then some, but at the airline and the industry in general, and next time I go somewhere I will drive myself, or just forget it and conduct my business by correspondence.
They will need air lawyers to negotiate and threaten each other. The lawyers will be sure to get paid before the plane lands.
"Ann, I think you are off base on this one. He is not doing an annoying thing to be annoying. He is utilizing the features of the space he purchased. If, instead he had his head-phones on and was loudly singing along with the music he was listening to and when asked to stop, replied "pay me". I think that would be appropriate to your comment."
Let him pay me then, or you are wrong.
GOT IT! Perfect economic solution.
The airlines rent Knee Defenders. Then those people that think they are paying to get reclining seats will be trumped by those people who are paying to have their personal space protected.
As with economics, the market will provide solutions, to a point.
TSA prechecks was instituted because many people were vocally annoyed by removing articles of clothing and standing in long lines. (It also expedites the security process for TSA and helps airlines.)
Some airlines (Delta is one) provide economy seats with extra legroom (recliner room?)for a nominal fee.
The rest of us either put up with it or schedule alternative travel (AA) or select travel at better times (flights with more open seats)if possible.
Let the person who doesn't want the reclining chair in front of them pay for the first row, pay for the emergency row or pay fro first class.
I made my point about "cheap" and "scorn" in the previous post. My only addition:
Althouse is writing six inches shorter than usual.
Josh Barro is an annoying twit. This is just another example.
I will gladly accept money not to fart on the airplane.
I'm stickin' with "dick".
How much would I have to pay an economist to get him to stop annoying me by talking like an economist?
Talking like an economist, this is known as non-relational contracting.
In a different profession, similar to economics, this is otherwise known as paying them to leave.
Why is the person reclining the bad guy? The thing she did wrong here was escalate by tossing water, but she had every right to complain to the stewardess. She bought a seat that reclined, she has a right to use it--just as the person in the window seat has a right to open or close the window shade during the flight. Sure, you can be more courteous by opening or shutting the shade as your passengers may request (or not reclining if the person behind you requests) but you certainly have a right to the features of your rented seat.
As other commenters have noted, if the issue is that seats and legroom are too tiny, then by all means don't fly coach on airlines that do this--pay a bit more on other airlines or pay more for other, roomier seats. This is no different from complaining because the seat next to you is taken when you'd rather have the row to yourself. You're not entitled to more than you've purchased.
he's not an economist.
while you could pay the person in front of you not to recline their seat, it should also be pointed out that almost every airline allows you to pay extra for extra space in premium economy or business/first class. If you don't choose to buy that product, you can certainly save money by flying regular coach, but you need to take responsibility for knowing what you've purchased.
"Paying them to leave" - that's what you do for prostitutes.
It sounds like two assholes got into it.
Anyone over 4' 9" who has flown on a domestic passenger jet in economy more than once in the last twenty years knows that reclining your seat is a total dick move. You have the right to do it, sure, but it's a total dick move. If the person behind you is anywhere near 6', it's more than a dick move, it's a sign that you're an unmitigated asshole. Especially if it's a "rush hour" flight, between 6am and 11 or 3pm and 7pm. That's when business travelers are trying to get where they are going, and trying to work at the same time. If this woman was any kind of heavy traveler, she wouldn't have reclined in the first place.
That said, fuck this guy and his little toy. He's obviously too much of an asshole to ask someone nicely for a favor. What a passive aggressive dick. I bet the lady who hit him with the drink was his wife.
"How much wold I have to pay an economist to get him to stop annoying me by talking like an economist?"
It's a trick question: no matter what you pay them, you can't get them to shut up.
Although they call it perfect price inelasticity.
In his "Problem of Social Cost", Coase was quite humble about his theory and acknowledged one limitation was his use of competing forms of production to describe its predicted outcomes. Cows vs corn; wood-fired locomotives vs crops that can burn from sparks landing next to the rails, etc.
Rather simply, the higher margin use can buy the other out regardless of legal entitlement, given certain conditions.
It's not as easy to arrive at what constitutes the "efficient" outcome when it comes down to so-called cardinal comparisons of consumer utility.
... In this article, the analysis has been confined, as is usual in this part of economics, to comparisons of the value of production, as measured by the market. But it is, of course, desirable that the choice between different social arrangements for the solution of economic problems should be carried out in broader terms than this and that the total effect of these arrangements in all spheres of life should be taken into account. As Frank H. Knight has so often emphasized, problems of welfare economics must ultimately dissolve into a study of aesthetics and morals.
Is there enough money in the known universe to pay lawyers to write laws in common English?
Airplanes: just like riding the bus but shorter.
Clearly, the passenger behind owns rights to the tray and magazine pocket of the seat in front of him? Perhaps then he has the rights to the back of the seat. If the Knee Defender installs there, perhaps he is well within his rights.
Why do the seats recline? Everyone hates people who recline.
I don't know why that first question mark is there. Surplus.
"Don’t Want Me to Recline My Airline Seat? You Can Pay Me."
"Don't Want To Get An Epic Beatdown? You Can Pay Me.
Wow, even simple cases of mutual propriety are impossible to reconcile without a court's intervention.
"Althouse is writing six inches shorter than usual."
Sounds like retaliation because she (based on your writing) called you short. Petty, Shirley you're a bigger man than that.
I am, I admit, astonished at the vitriol toward reclining passengers. I have never heard, or heard of, anyone asking the person behind them for permission to recline a seat.
Nor have I ever heard anyone get angry because the person in front of them reclined. But then I always seem to be surrounded by tourists and not people trying to use laptops.
(screaming babies, now...oy!)
We Lawyers write laws in Common Law English which is a cross between Dickensian wordiness and Oxford English as spoken at King's College Cambridge.
Where should I send the bill?
Heh! I wasn't offering to pay for an excuse...I was wondering if the universe could afford to pay lawyers to stop writing (that is, acting) like lawyers. I'm betting it doesn't.
That would almost explain it, if every other phrase of your Dickensian wordiness had (O.E.D.v2 p175 L. col 47, def.2, plur.) references embedded without which the sentence would be opaque...:-)
(Does anyone have an OED who can tell me which word I picked? Gosh, I hope it's not obscene!)
A pox on my grammatical errors.
Thinking like an economist, I would not pay Josh Barro to refrain from reclining. If this was standard practice then everyone (even those who do not like to be reclined) would recline in hopes of a payout.
What I would do is pay the person ahead of the person reclining into me to recline too. It should be easy to do since no matter how polite the person being paid, one can point out that the person behind is in no position (literal or figurative) to complain.
Ann probably hates the new nail polish that changes color in a drink spiked with drugs.
Manners are gone, Althouse. Josh Barro is offering solutions for the world we live in, not pointlessly pining for the world you wish it still was.
My dad had a 36" inseam. People used to slam seats back into his knees all the time. The seats shouldn't recline.
I looked up the Knee Defender, and it goes on the tray. I say the man was within his rights to use it.
Freeman Hunt wrote: Clearly, the passenger behind owns rights to the tray and magazine pocket of the seat in front of him? Perhaps then he has the rights to the back of the seat. If the Knee Defender installs there, perhaps he is well within his rights.
The passenger in front owns the recline lever. That doesn't mean she owns the recline space.
As Freeman points out, the passenger in back owns the tray, &etc.. Furthermore, the passenger in back may be very obese or very tall or have very large knees or be a parent carrying an infant. In these cases the recline space is no longer as claimable as the economist thinks it is.
What we have is the tragedy of the commons, writ in scrimshaw. The airline hasn't properly assigned the recline space to either party so it can be claimed by whichever one makes the stronger claim. Since it is an airline, "stronger" means "more sympathetic."
The guy with the tree growing over the fence in my backyard, how is that different? Don't I have control over the space I paid for, i.e., can't I cut the limb back to the fence line?
Anyone over 4' 9" who has flown on a domestic passenger jet in economy more than once in the last twenty years knows that reclining your seat is a total dick move.
I'm 6-1/200, fly coach, and reclining is just not a big deal. It's nowhere close to as annoying as having an huge fat person in the next seat overflowing into mine. The idea of flying 8 hours across the Atlantic (or 5 hours across the continent) and not reclining to sleep or just change your sitting position is absurd.
Another common reason for reclining the seat is that the person in front of *you* is reclining -- is the person behind me who doesn't want seats reclined going to work his way up the plane and get everybody to sit up straight? Ridiculous!
Look, you bought a coach ticket. All the seats recline and the feature is commonly used -- this is well known. So be prepared to deal with it, or pay for an upgrade, or drive, or whatever.
If I use up all my money paying econbloggers to shut up about the fucking Coase Theorem, I won't have any left to pay lawbloggers to shut up about the fucking USN&WR law-school rankings.
All the seats recline and the feature is commonly used -- this is well known. So be prepared to deal with it
He did deal with it. He put Knee Defenders on his tray arms.
I really laughed at the absurdity of the situation and the comments to it (here and in the NYT -- I read most of them there and the tilt was to slap down the author of the piece). I fly frequently and in past years, I have been accompanied by my 6'4" partner (who wonders what comfort there is in reclining your chair by 4 inches anyway...). I have to say, the airlines won in this one: they created a right on both sides of the recline line and left it to the passengers to duke it out (each one claiming a right that is, in fact, theirs, but in conflict with that of the other).
There is no good solution except to cut the incline at least by half. Airlines have to be clear: you want cheap fares, this is the best we can do. The public then decides if it's worth it. If enough say "no", we'll get more room (and higher fares). That's economics!
Paul Zrimsek said...
If I use up all my money paying econbloggers to shut up about the fucking Coase Theorem, I won't have any left to pay lawbloggers to shut up about the fucking USN&WR law-school rankings.
LOL!
I objected to the MATS policy of boarding families first, so the kids spread out and contaminated the entire airplane.
How about this? How about short people get seats with the same relative seat size as "sensitivity training."
I can't say this has ever been a problem for me on airplanes--no one has ever objected to my reclining, nor have I had a problem with someone else's reclining. My issues generally have been the following:
1) Excessive carry-ons and violation of carry-on limits. I hate when people who do this never leave enough space in the overhead compartments for my one, flexible bag, because they decided to pack for months and didn't want to pay the checked bag fee for their skis and crap. Airlines need to be stricter about this, but people sneak stuff on when the gate is crowded.
2) Delays. Flights are booked so close to one another than a ten minute delay in the beginning of the day turns into a hours long delay by the end of the day. I try and get the earliest possible flights for this reason, but airports need more gates and runways if they want to book more flights out.
3) Sick people. I get that they have to fly too, sometimes, but they really should hand out masks for them. It's very easy to catch others' colds on flights.
4) Having to get up constantly to use the bathroom. Sorry, that's on me--I drink a lot on the flight because I get dehydrated. I try to limit it when I have a non-aisle seat.
5) People bringing stinky foods. There should be a special section for such people. I love Chinese food, but on flights it's nasty smelling.
6) Kids who won't behave. I know it sucks even more for their parents, but at least make an effort to keep them under control. I can be very tolerant if it at least looks like you're trying to alleviate the situation.
7) Unstable pricing. The fact that the answer to the question "how much does it cost to fly from NY to Miami" has answers as variable as the weather is an issue--after all, if it varies by day of the week you fly or how far in advance you buy, and even then can fluctuate all year long, how can a consumer adequately get the sense of value between airlines? Even using Kayak or Expedia, it may be that United is cheaper than Delta one day but more expensive the next, so it makes little sense for say Delta to offer a slightly more expensive flight and advertise better legroom and perks. Generally, the cost of first class is so much more than coach that you can understand putting up with some of the indignities (others you can't avoid--delays of the flight hit all classes equally). Though I suppose like the hotel industry, reputations among competitors can spread, and certain airlines can become known for slightly higher prices for a more pleasant flying experience, even customized for certain passengers (adults only sections, mid-class, etc.).
I have a practical concern for reclining. I fly a lot - probably 3 trips per month. I wish there habit to check with the person behind you before reclining. One, it protects the knees. I'm gotten my knees jammed so many times it's not funny. Secondly, it protects laptops. If you're using a laptop on your tray table, it's very easy for the screen of the laptop to wedged between the reclining seat and tray table. I have this fear of seeing my MacBook Air exploding as the person in front of me reclines.
I'm not against reclining but I do check with the person behind me to make sure these room and no ones losing knees or laptops. I wish more people did the same.
Reclining seats are an anachronism from when there used to be enough room on airplanes.
Just as easy to say, "I have the right to use my laptop on the seat tray, and you have no right to take that away by reclining." (More realistically, you have no right to crush my laptop's screen by your sudden and violent throwing back of your seat.)
Amazing how quickly we resort to "rights" language when perhaps language of compromise or accommodation is called for.
We Lawyers write laws in Common Law English which is a cross between Dickensian wordiness and Oxford English as spoken at King's College Cambridge.
Where should I send the bill?
How much would I have to pay you not to send the bill?
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