"On a United flight from Newark, New Jersey, to Denver, a passenger in a middle seat of Row 12 decided he didn’t want the woman in front of him to lean her seat back. So he pulled out a Knee Defender and locked it into place on his food tray, making it impossible for the seat in front to be reclined. Whether the man politely asked the woman first if she would be OK with that is unclear. The woman was not OK with that. She wanted to recline her seat. She asked the man to remove the Knee Defender. He would not. A flight attendant then asked him to remove it, informing him that Knee Defenders were prohibited on the flight. He still would not. At which point, according to news reports, the woman in the front seat threw a cup of water at Mr. Knee Defender."
From a Chicago Sun-Times editorial titled "Leave the Knee Defender at home."
Oh, come on! Why are we talking about the Knee Defender? A woman threw water at a man. That's the serious infraction. Who cares which of a million things you might do on a plane to bother somebody else?
ADDED: To answer my own question: 1. Knee Defenders are a specific, new piece of technology that readers might contemplate deploying. They seem to offer to solve a predictable problem, and they seem to offer people a way to deal with an annoyance without any interaction with another, so you'd better take into account that you may be laying the groundwork for a very dramatic interaction. 2. As for the water-throwing woman, readers don't divert their attention onto her for exactly the same reason — I'm guessing — that she thought to throw water at him. It's what women have been doing for decades... in the movies. It's a cliché: When a woman is outraged, she throws a glass of water in the face of the person who caused the outrage.
This actually isn't how normal people behave in real life, but: 1. Embedded in the big and small screens of movies, TV, and video games, we've lost our instinct for the lubricated subtleties of social interaction that would have developed naturally if we lived with real fellow humans in the flesh, 2. The inside of an airplane isn't the normal society of the human being. Our fellow humans are present in the flesh, but far too much for normal behavior to make much sense. We attempt to find solitude and isolation where it is least possible, so we're forced to find weird ways to preserve our well being until the flight is over.
August 27, 2014
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170 comments:
"Please let me recline my seat."
"No. I need to work on my laptop."
"Oh yeah? Well my cup of water says otherwise!"
Splash!
The $22 plastic contraption consists of two wedge-like pieces with rubber grips that fasten to the seat tray. Once it's attached, the unfortunate person in the front cannot recline. The product comes with a courtesy card. It reads, according to The Mirror:
“I realize that this may be an inconvenience. If so, I hope you will complain to the airline. Maybe working together we can convince the airlines to provide enough space between rows so that people can recline their seats without banging into other passengers.”
Why are we talking about the Knee Defender?
Because it's on your blog ( to misquote Seinfeld ).
But it does seem an interesting topic to me: Outside of safety related issues, what rules can the airlines set for passenger conduct, and what can they do to enforce those rules.
If I can't use a Knee Defender to keep her from leaning into my space, she can't use a Sneeze Guard to keep my spittle off her forehead.
My understanding is that the Knee Defender is banned on United, but the guy used it anyway. Good luck to him flying United again. (I say that like it's a bad thing?)
The woman threw the water at the guy. Doesn't say it hit him. Probably hit the person next to him. Threw like a girl.
The most unsurprising thing about this is that they flew out of Newark. Typical NJ residents.
The person in front paid for a certain service, which included a seat that reclined. The airline wanted to provide that service, but another customer, in violation of the terms associated with their purchase, prevented the airline from providing the expected service.
I'm not saying the throwing of water was justified, it was not. But what recourse does the airline have to deal with the Knee Defender asshole?
It just shows how hard airline travel is getting to be - searches, cramming people together, suddenly cancelling flights because there aren't enough passengers. Now fights between passengers. Flying is still the fastest way to get around a big country so the airlines hold on as businesses but the situation reminds me of Detroit making bad cars and ignoring complaints in the Fifties and Sixties. There was no way out - and then there came the Japanese car. What I am hoping for is personal jetpacks.
I don't recline my seat, because I am unwilling to stick it in the other person's face. There isn't any room, anymore. I HATE airlines.
I don't recline my seat, because I am unwilling to stick it in the other person's face.
Seriously. I don't care about my knees! I care about the fact that the airlines have smushed so many seats in the planes that if anyone reclines it becomes terribly claustrophobic. They should completely remove the ability to recline from coach (except possibly on international flights). It is completely ridiculous.
Oh, come on! Why are we talking about the Knee Defender? A woman threw water at a man. That's the serious infraction.
You women can throw drinks in a man's face and nobody thinks twice.
Seriously. The one who was in jeopardy was the man. Dis-obeying the direction of a Flight Attendant in flight can get you met at the landing gate with guys holding handcuffs.
It may be wrong, but that's the way the thing can unfold.
What a passive aggressive way to interact with the person whose seat is in front of yours.
...we've lost our instinct for the lubricated subtleties of social interaction that would have developed naturally if we lived with real fellow humans in the flesh,...
Parents and schools need to "have that talk" about social intercourse.
I don't see why throwing water at the guy was such a "serious infraction." What is the wronged party supposed to do? Sue the other passenger? Lawyers--who are even less popular than airlines, by the way--always talk as if there was some easy non-violent way to resolve personal differences, while working constantly to make the courts unusable for ordinary citizens.
To Shanna: if you think airline seats shouldn't recline, then you must be a loyal customer of Spirit airlines - their seats don't recline.
People should get a life. Airline seats recline, coach is cramped, and carry-on space is limited. If you want more space for yourself or carry-on, then you are free to pay for it - buy a premium coach seat, business class or first class.
By the way. use SeatGuru to make sure the seat you select when you buy your seat comes with no surprises.
Original Mike said...
I don't recline my seat, because I am unwilling to stick it in the other person's face.
Or, you could recline, and the person behind you can recline, and everybody is happy. ( except for the poor schlub in the back row, but really, are you going to make everyone else less comfortable just to please him? ( In fairness, I would happily sit in the last row, unable to recline, with the person in front of me reclining, 20% of the time, if the other 80% of the time I could recline and therefore be much more comfortable. ))
And note, the person in front of you is not reclining into your space. The seat is made to recline, it is their space ( that they paid for ) if they choose to use it.
I used to fly a lot on business. Not so much currently.
I took a flight several weeks ago and it occurred to me that air travel has now sunk to the Greyhound/Trailways level of the 70s. Dirty, cattle herded and bare bones. I would much rather drive for anything within 400 miles. Who needs scabies from the illegal immigrants being flown around now by Obama?
The man is 100% in the wrong here. The person has the right to recline.
The real issue is laptops didn't exist when airline configurations were designed. Combined with deregulation, terrorism and bankruptcies the legroom (and associated recliner airspace) has been shrunk to the bone.
The man in a complete jackass. Typical NJ/NYC (lack of) manners and consideration. I flew into White Plains once and the flight had to be diverted to Newark due to fog. I have never heard people whine and bitch so hard in my life. What a miserable bunch of people and toxic culture of rat-race misery..
I don't like people in front of me reclining too far (naturally). I myself like to recline just a little and respect the space of the person behind me. I think Knee Defender guy is in the wrong here simply because no one is allowed to modify the way any airplane equipment works. He shouldn't be able to modify the way a seat works anymore than he should be able to modify how the bathroom works or the cockpit dooor.
I need to know the race and sexual orientation of the two parties involved to successfully evaluate this affair.
It doesn't bother me a bit when people recline in front of me in airplanes. To be honest, I hardly notice, and have always wondered why people get so worked up about it. It's a plane, that's how it works. I'm just glad to have the ability to use it.
Why didn't they just swap seats?
The real issue is laptops didn't exist when airline configurations were designed.
That isn't true. Laptops have been around for over 20 years. Airliner cabins are reconfigurable and airlines have been cramming more seats into the cabin for a long, long time.
Last November, I was on a particularly unpleasant KLM A330 flight from Atlanta to Amsterdam. The seats were so close together that when the person in front of me reclined, it was very difficult to get out of my seat to stretch my legs or to go to the bathroom. That was an uncomfortable 12 hours (give or take). For the return flight, I'd managed to get "Economy Plus" seats for an additional $99 each. They had several inches more legroom and were much more comfortable. The Economy Plus seats weren't available for my flight to Amsterdam and if they aren't available, I'll never fly KLM again.
"It just shows how hard airline travel is getting to be . . . What I am hoping for is personal jetpacks."
I can't agree more. A simple flight from Portland to home in Salt Lake City turned into a nightmare two weeks ago, involving a long delay on a runway due to the ground crew over fueling the plane and barely making a connection after being told we were rebooked to make a second connection and not arrive home until the middle of the night. My in-laws made the 14 hour drive home in almost the same time it took us to fly a 700 mile flight (which should never need a connection given that it was always full in the past - but airlines operate in a strange world). An eventless flight seems to be the exception these days.
But I am not waiting for a jet pack. Just driverless cars. Once I have a car that will take me to my destination while I read, sleep, work, or play a board game with my family, I will avoid the airport like the plague. The only exception will be international or - maybe - a coast to coast flight.
Or maybe I should adopt Althouse's non-travel for vacation policy and live a happier life.
By the way, that is twice in two years that I was literally sprinting with my ill wife and young children through an airport to make a connection due to airline negligence. I hate air travel.
"They should completely remove the ability to recline from coach (except possibly on international flights). It is completely ridiculous."
Yep.
"The plane made an unscheduled stop at O’Hare Airport and both passengers were escorted off."
The captain made the right decision. Glad I wasn't randomly on that flight.
Everyone is indefensible in this case.
This American Life did a story on the knee defender about a year ago. I thought then, and I think now, that someone has no right to alter the seat the airline provided another passenger.
I have seen some flight attendants request people be judicious in their reclining, and will ask people to put their seats up when the meal comes around. Perhaps the airlines could cut down on all the talk about not smoking (we know! we know!) and give a little talk about making sure the other person knows you are about to recline, and then to recline only as much as you need. Easy solution!
I like to recline a bit because the forward tilt of the top of the seats makes me have to bow my head down and I hate that. I don't recline a lot.
The WORST is when you have someone (often a kid) in front of you recline their seat AND THEN LEAN FORWARD. What?????
But again, asking a flight attendant to say something to the offending passenger is always going to be the best option.
Yet another reason to be happy that I'm short!
"Or maybe I should adopt Althouse's non-travel for vacation policy and live a happier life."
We travel, but by car.
We hate planes, and every story like this drives it home. Once you are in that tube, you are in a crazy world, under the rule of a "captain" and his "crew," and everyone is subject to physical coercion to make it decently acceptable for everyone, liquor is served, and let's just hope all 200 people hold in their emotions until we all can get out of here.
Why would you get on a plane… short of a sudden need to do something in person and far away? All I can think of is a sudden illness or death in the family.
What is the probability a male passenger wielding a Knee Defender is also sporting cargo shorts and lots of body hair?
Re: "To be honest, I hardly notice, and have always wondered why people get so worked up about it."
Probably depends on your size. I'm 6'4", and flew cross-country with the passenger in front of me reclining the entire time. By doing so, his seat was pushing into my knees -- there was nowhere to put my legs that didn't have my knees pressed by the seat in front when reclined. Sucked it up and read.
However, the guy in front of me could feel my knees pressing his seat, and obviously thought I was doing this to annoy him on purpose. His response was to bounce hard against the back of his seat, over and over.
I asked -- nicely -- for him to stop, and he told me to f**k off and resumed his seat dance, harder. We had a few words and the flight attendant came over; he told her I was 'kicking' the back of his chair.
She looked at my position -- knees immobilized -- and explained to him there was no way I could be doing such a thing. So of course after she left he resumed bouncing back against my knees. More words, another visit from the flight attendant. I offered to move to another seat, but it was a full flight.
Long flight. We had a conversation at the luggage carousel.
I think the airlines should eliminate the recline function of all their seats. Flying today is incredibly uncomfortable largely due to a reduction in seat size and the placement of more seats. When someone reclines their seat it is nearly intolerable for the person behind them. It amazes me that there are not more incidents like this.
"Why would you get on a plane… short of a sudden need to do something in person and far away?"
Zanzibar, Zanzibar,
Zanzibar is very far
You can’t get there in a car
It’s too far to Zanzibar
Flying can be uncomfortable, but imagine complaining about the ability to be in Europe in 7 hours to the people who had to sail the Atlantic for 6 weeks.
Or imagine telling the Donner party you just can't stand having to take your shoes off at the TSA line.
They'd all weep for us, I'm sure.
I think the airlines should eliminate the recline function of all their seats. Flying today is incredibly uncomfortable largely due to a reduction in seat size and the placement of more seats. When someone reclines their seat it is nearly intolerable for the person behind them. It amazes me that there are not more incidents like this.
#21stCenturyProblems
After a particularly miserable set of cross-country flights last year, we found ourselves with a family obligation a few weeks ago that required us to travel cross-country again. Not feeling quite prepared for another sardine experience, we chose to stay off the planes and instead, drove all the way -- from New York to Washington State and back again. It took a lot longer than flying would have, of course, and cost more, what with hotels and gas. But it was fascinating and fun and unforgettable. What's more, not once did anyone pat me down, require me to take off my shoes, search through my toiletries or recline a seat into my face. Try to get THAT out of any flight!
"let's just hope all 200 people hold in their emotions"
New product idea for the makers of the Knee Defender: The Emotional Barf Bag®.
First, scream "Racist!" at every police officer.
Next, assume in any confrontation, the police are in the wrong, and acting out of racial malice.
Third, order the police to PROTECT those inciting murder, as below:
http://www.samizdata.net/blog/~pdeh/protest_muslims_intolerant_clip_mrez1.html
And now you are suprised that these same police declined to investigate this particular group committing crimes?
Police officers are human beings, with jobs and bills like everyone else. When the boss says "Look the other way, or lose your job" that's what they do.
The airlines sell everything else now. Why not have a section where the seats don't recline. I'd pay extra for that.
Is THAT it?
Details, details please.
Was he an old guy with arthritic knees?
Did she commit battery for throwing water?
Any possibility of rape involved?
Maybe racism?
Oh shucky-do. Is THAT it?
"It doesn't bother me a bit when people recline in front of me in airplanes. To be honest, I hardly notice, "
you must be flying in first class then.
i've flown plenty of times over the last 8 years and when the person in front reclines their seat it felt like they were in my lap. no room to even read a book let alone work on a laptop
Betamax...I don't know if your 8/27/14, 9:55 AM is fiction or fact, but as a 6'4" person occasionally on an airplane, I end up being immobilized if the guy in front reclines. Unless I get a seat on the emergency exit row. My sympathy is with the man in back, although rules is rules and upon notification by the attendant he's out of line -- WITH THE ATTENDANT who then calls the Sky Marshal or whatever. The girl in front, that's assault and I hope he presses charges. If there's anything thing worse than being locked into an uncomfortable position, I bet it's being locked into an uncomfortable position in wet clothes.
If I paid for a ticket, and the seat CAN recline, then I should be able to recline if I wish. Period.
And let's get real - while wrong to throw a cup of water, it is hardly "assault", except to the litigiously inclined.
DanTheMan – I believe the post you want to comment on went thataway.
Better a glass of water than a fist to the face.
The woman is in the right by the way (not on the water throwing obviously). She has a right to recline her seat. And he has no right to use a knee defender and was told by the crew to not use it.
RE: Betamax...I don't know if your 8/27/14, 9:55 AM is fiction or fact, but as a 6'4" person occasionally on an airplane, I end up being immobilized if the guy in front reclines.
Fact. One of the many reasons I only fly as a last resort.
I'm with Peter K and Betamax 3000.
I'm 6" 5" tall--and fortunately my business travel days are over. I flew enough on business that I could frequently get upgraded to business or to first class.
But my knees took a beating over the years from the cramped condition in coach. I always seemed to wind up behind some little schmuck or a 5" 4" tall woman who didn't realize what they were doing to me when they fully reclined against my knees.
Ah the joys of business air travel. Do I miss it now that I'm retired? Can't say that I do.
Well, the next time I'm on an airplane, I'll ask the person behind me for permission before reclining the seat. You tall folks have convinced me that it matters.
Tee hee.
From what I understand, you have a right to recline. But if you force a whole column of people behind you to recline, that is kind of a dick move.
I will recline when the person behind me is reclined, or if that seat is empty. If the person ahead of me reclines, I will often recline slightly to ease my burden while not imposing on the person behind me.
My most recent trips have been to Europe for work and there is no other practical way of getting there. I think alcohol helps--a lot.
How tall was the guy?
This is all solved by learning to fly and getting your own airplane.
You'll be alone all the time.
Even wife and kids won't be interested, as most male airplane owners discover.
Ans where is this famed women work together better? She couldn't have come up with a better idea? She has to escalate it?
I do not like it when people in front of me recline and so I do not recline. The Golden Rule. For violators, I like the suggestion of getting out the barf bag and making hacking noises (calling Dinosaurs) just behind the head of the bastard in front.
"The person in front paid for a certain service, which included a seat that reclined. The airline wanted to provide that service, but another customer, in violation of the terms associated with their purchase, prevented the airline from providing the expected service. I'm not saying the throwing of water was justified, it was not. But what recourse does the airline have to deal with the Knee Defender asshole?"
Yeah, but my question isn't what should the airline do, it's why do we focus on one infraction rather than another?
As for the airline, it has chosen to go for quantity not quality, and it's trying to get as many buyers as it can get by lowering the prices and making the seat space as small as it can be. As long as people keep buying the cheap seats and scorning the expensive seats, these people are all making the bed in which they lie.
My reaction is: You people all deserve each other, and I don't want to be anywhere near you. I'll save all my money and stay out of your planes.
But if you want to make me look at these desperate people who for some reason must travel and must travel cheaply, I say the lady was over the top throwing water. The crew was dealing with the man. Why didn't she let them? The airline has its rule and was working on enforcing it. The man was pathetic and stupid, but it could have been worked out.
The woman crossed the line into violence.
I flew to Australia recently. 15 hr plane ride. I looked at Premium Economy, but for flights Down Under they are 150% the cost of Economy (for flights to Europe, they aren't much more expensive than Economy). Going back next year, and I think I'll bite the bullet. My feet were the size of watermelons when I got off the plane (turned out my BP med "interacted" badly with 15 hours in a chair).
These two were in the "comfort seats." That means they had expectations of comfort. That was their first mistake.
Alyssa wrote -
"It doesn't bother me a bit when people recline in front of me in airplanes. To be honest, I hardly notice, and have always wondered why people get so worked up about it. It's a plane, that's how it works. I'm just glad to have the ability to use it."
Agreed. And I say that having just rode economy three legs each way to Budapest and back. Compared to previous times, airline seats barely recline at all anymore - even on international flights. When I have to get out of my seat, if the seat back is a problem, I just ask or even wake the person in front of me to raise their seat long enough for me to get out. No big deal.
"I don't see why throwing water at the guy was such a "serious infraction." What is the wronged party supposed to do? Sue the other passenger? Lawyers--who are even less popular than airlines, by the way--always talk as if there was some easy non-violent way to resolve personal differences, while working constantly to make the courts unusable for ordinary citizens."
She's supposed to inform the crew and let them do their job enforcing the rules. Obviously!
You don't get to resort to violence on a plane in a nonemergency situation. Sure, tackle the hijackers. That's rational. But don't express emotion through violence because you're frustrated about annoyances, especially the routine annoyances that are bundled into the low price you shopped for.
Sometimes, on these blog comment threads, betamax "reclines" his comment right after mine and he gets all the attention and lols. Grrr.
This practically causes me to go mental and I want to water board him or something.
I wish someone would invent the Knee Slapping Comment Defender.
Alyssa wrote -
"It doesn't bother me a bit when people recline in front of me in airplanes. To be honest, I hardly notice, and have always wondered why people get so worked up about it. It's a plane, that's how it works. I'm just glad to have the ability to use it."
Agreed. And I say that having just rode economy three legs each way to Budapest and back. Compared to previous times, airline seats barely recline at all anymore - even on international flights. When I have to get out of my seat, if the seat back is a problem, I just ask or even wake the person in front of me to raise their seat long enough for me to get out. No big deal.
"I don't recline my seat, because I am unwilling to stick it in the other person's face. There isn't any room, anymore. I HATE airlines."
But sometimes you want to recline to pull your face back from the seat back that got reclined into your face. Are you the one with the nerve to say the reclining stops here, or does everyone recline and leave the final squishing to the people in the last row, who wouldn't have chosen it either but have no option.
Lyssa not Alyssa. Sorry, my tablet's auto correct apparently doesn't like your name. Bad tablet bad!
"I do not like it when people in front of me recline and so I do not recline. The Golden Rule."
That's the way I look at it.
"And let's get real - while wrong to throw a cup of water, it is hardly "assault", except to the litigiously inclined."
It's assault. Pretty much the same as spitting on someone, just not as gross.
Assuming the guy wants to respond and does not have a handy cup of water, what is the range of responses you think available to him? Ask the stew for a cup?
The amount of time spent on this debate is too damn high.
They're both wrong. Two wrongs only make a right in politics and blogging.
Uh, lady... could you please move your longer, less humorous comment... the one you reclined right over mine one minute ago?
I hope I don't have to use my Comment Defender.
News flash. Even back rows recline. They did on two of the six legs I just took. I should know, I was in them.
I agree that she had every right to recline the seat, and if he had a problem with that he should have purchased a different seat (maybe front row, or first class). The price we pay for cheaper seats is less legroom, and if the airline makes it so seats can recline, that's their deal.
It is outrageous that she resorted to throwing water--that's the sort of oafish behavior that people only do when they're confident they're not going to be retaliated against. Let the stewardess handle him.
I really feel for the other passengers--having their trip diverted because of two obnoxious people. Unless the fight escalated to the point where it was dangerous to continue to their destination, would it have been so bad to separate the two, or give them a warning and deal with them at the destination?
As Betamax and Unknown mentioned, for a certain segment of the population, a person reclining in front of another doesn't just enter the second's bubble, but is actively pressing against them and infringing their free movement.
Betamax, I think after a polite request to move their seat was rejected, I'd probably be trying to "get comfortable" in my seat until they decided they might rest better by not reclining.
"I think the airlines should eliminate the recline function of all their seats. Flying today is incredibly uncomfortable largely due to a reduction in seat size and the placement of more seats. When someone reclines their seat it is nearly intolerable for the person behind them. It amazes me that there are not more incidents like this."
Some airlines have done that, so maybe the market will produce this solution… if it's what the consumer really wants.
". Are you the one with the nerve to say the reclining stops here,"
Yes. I won't do that to the person behind me. Like dbp said, it's a "dick move".
I fly about once a year. I'm 5'10". I have rarely had any problem. It's not very comfortable, but I know that going in. I just sit and read a book, or snooze.
I am amazed at the distance you can go, in relative comfort, for a relatively small amount of money.
If I have an issue with anything, it's the security theatre you have to go through, but even that is not usually that bad.
It occurs to me that this guy planned (and purchased) in advance to be an asshole.
My knees go deeply into the backs of recliners.
I do not move them and insure that the recliner is not comfortable.
It is absurd to recline your seat in coach and the airlines should eliminate the reclining feature of seats. Absent that, if you think it absolutely necessary to kick back, kindly inform the person behind you that you intend to lean back and then ease your seat back. The usual approach for people who recline their seats is that they simply slam them back as soon as they sit down, long before the plane is ready to take off. These people are vile and are to be avoided if possible or otherwise you have to employ the deep knee approach. When they slam back on your knees you will be prepared but they will not. They will heave this way and that, they will fuck with their button over and over but if you persist with your knees gouging into their backs they will quit. And sit up straight.
Best to avoid it entirely and pay for first class. Then, at least, you are among those who fly a lot and are not likely to smash their seat back on your laptop or drink.
Just buy first class you cheap Scottish bastards.
Why didn't the Sun-Times just rag on airlines for smashing people together?
Re: "As long as people keep buying the cheap seats and scorning the expensive seats, these people are all making the bed in which they lie."
Elitism, I feel. The seats are not necessarily 'cheap' -- they are less expensive. But one's wallet determines the perception of "cheap" and the ability to "scorn" the expensive seats. Yes, it is a choice, but the choice exists within one's financial abilities: I do not "scorn" the ability to buy an Audi (for example) instead of a Ford, I just do not have the resources for such an upgrade.
"...these desperate people who for some reason must travel and must travel cheaply..."
Regarding "travel cheaply" see above. Perhaps "quickly" might better apply. As for the reasons of these desperate people: these may include marriages, family illnesses, etc, all fit within one's paycheck and their available days off.
Well, they don't serve peanuts anymore on flights due to allergies, so let the people in coach eat cake.
betamax3000 said… "...I'm 6'4…"
I feel you don't write like you're 6'4.
Yeah, betamax, act your height.
"Why didn't the Sun-Times just rag on airlines for smashing people together?"
I don't blame the airlines--they're reacting to the consumer, who has decided that lower prices are worth every bit of discomfort and indignity they're enduring. It's going to get worse before it gets better.
Of course, some enterprising airline can charge slightly higher prices and make the seating less crammed, while letting the more price-conscious customers suffer. Part of the problem though is ticket prices vary so much by customer and flight that it's hard to consistently read which airlines charge more than others unless the difference is huge.
I haven't really had a problem with seats in front of me reclining too far--we're usually talking just a couple inches--and the completely vertical position is very uncomfortable for long flights. I think though it's up to the airline to weigh the costs and benefits of reclining seats, and consumers who need more legroom will have to pick their seats accordingly.
Another of many reasons to avoid flying whenever possible.
"My most recent trips have been to Europe for work and there is no other practical way of getting there. I think alcohol helps--a lot."
It helps until it doesn't. Then you've got belligerent jerks that force the flight to divert to O'Hare and you're 2 hours off schedule.
To Shanna: if you think airline seats shouldn't recline, then you must be a loyal customer of Spirit airlines - their seats don't recline.
What sense does that even make?
When they gave seats the ability to recline, their was room to do so. Now there is not. I have had people recline in front of me to the point where I could barely hold a book in front of my face. It's awful.
If I flew more I might buy one of those knee things. It's less passive aggressive then kicking the back of someone's chair 'accidentally' and it solves the problem.
Me, I've never had a drink on a plane, even though when I'm not flying I like to have a glass of wine with dinner.
I read 40 years ago that alcohol has a big effect on you when you're up in a plane, took that seriously, and didn't want to feel bad. And I've always had trouble getting any sleep on a plane. But somehow it's totally embedded in my psyche: don't fly and drink. Just like don't drink and drive.
There are so many things about air travel I hate. I'm glad I don't travel for work anymore.
United is vile. We were on a United flight for a vacation recently and the economy seats are not only so close together, but they've redone the seat itself so your head and neck are pitched forward. Awful.
Actually Southwest is great as far as economy air travel goes. Just pay the extra $12.50 to get in the A boarding group.
My personal pet peeve are the lowlifes who board a plane carrying a bag of McDonald's. Disgusting.
Ann Althouse said...
betamax3000 said… "...I'm 6'4…"
I feel you don't write like you're 6'4.
I write like I'm TEN FEET TALL. That's how I am interpreting it, anyway.
I also write HANDSOME.
"Never" is an exaggeration. I might have accepted a free glass of wine once or twice when I was in first class (which was only because I'd racked up a lot of miles and got a free upgrade).
"I also write HANDSOME."
I read every man to be handsome (about like Cary Grant) and every woman to be beautiful (about like Jennifer Connelly).
It's just a think I find I do… until I see a photograph, which tends to shock me… though I know how to prepare for the revelation of the actual looks.
Sometimes, it's amazing in that the person actually turns out to look great, though rarely exactly like Cary or Jennifer.
I'm not going to give up flying, because the vacations we take are more than worth the hours of hell cooped up in the plane. But because they are now, truly, hours of hell, I do not fly without copious amounts of (legally prescribed) drugs.
Maybe that's what we all need - instead of seat defenders and flight attendants as certified mediators, we can all take Xanax and call it a day. Just don't complain if your seat-mate drools on you while he sleeps.
Is this thread reclining into the previous thread? I'm enjoying hanging out here, talking about this and that, and I realize I'm avoiding looking back there to see what's happening. Is everyone getting uncomfortable? Angry? Do I need a drink before I look back? Should I throw water in there?
From what I understand, you have a right to recline. But if you force a whole column of people behind you to recline, that is kind of a dick move.
Yes. Exactly. Reclining a teensy bit to have a better angle for your neck is ok, but there just isn't room for more. If people would just attempt to be courteous of others, we would have a lot fewer problems.
I've been flying for more than fifty years, sometimes quite frequently (twice a week). I used to love it. Anymore, I'll drive for two days to avoid it now.
When forced to fly I get nostalgic about flying orbits over the Sahara - oxygen mask, parachute harness, rock hard seats, urinating into a relief tube and the real treat of C-rations for the inflight meal.
"Comment Defender." What a cute nickname for your wife, Meade!
Well now we know what happened on Malaysian Flight 370. The Seat Recliners rioted over the Knee Defenders using Knee Defenders and the pilot took the wrong side in the fight.
Meade said...
Yeah, betamax, act your height.
I already thought I was a looming presence...
"I just sit and read a book, or snooze."
I'd use an audiobook… and noise cancellation headphones. You have something to occupy your mind and you can exclude the environment both through sound and closing your eyes, and with the right book and narrator, it becomes much easier to sleep.
The technical solution would seem to be a seat that works like a "wall hugger" recliner.
On these, the seat itself moves forward when the seatback is reclined. Thus, when you reclined your seat you'd use only your own knee room.
To be precise, in the movies the woman tosses a glass of wine in the man's face, not water. So watch out, Meade.
"a think I find I do"
a thing
I won't pretend to find that mistake cute.
"I'm not going to give up flying, because the vacations we take are more than worth the hours of hell cooped up in the plane."
Why? Where do you go? I can't think of anywhere to feel that way about, or I might go.
Keep in mind that I have no sense of smell, so going somewhere in person to smell how it smells isn't a factor for me. On the other hand, if the stinkiness of a place is considered a downside, I'd like it better.
An example: if I were to fly to -- say -- Madison, Wisconsin to attempt stand-up at an Open Mic night I would have to fly coach. Which is probably why I am waiting until I can afford First Class.
"When forced to fly I get nostalgic about flying orbits over the Sahara - oxygen mask, parachute harness, rock hard seats, urinating into a relief tube and the real treat of C-rations for the inflight meal."
Nice sentence, and thanks for whatever you did for the good of mankind when you were doing all that.
Ann Althouse said...
"...I'm enjoying hanging out here, talking about this and that..."
I like when Althouse joins us in comments, i.e. coach! My only problem is when Meade reclines into my knees...
Ann Althouse said...This actually isn't how normal people behave in real life,
"Is this real life?"
Oh, it's on an airplane, and airplanes aren't the normal society of the human being. I mean, neither are office cubicles or university lecture halls, really, but if that's what it takes to make an assertion that something which happened in real life isn't how normal people act in real life, then sure.
Ann Althouse said...
"I'm not going to give up flying, because the vacations we take are more than worth the hours of hell cooped up in the plane."
Why? Where do you go? I can't think of anywhere to feel that way about, or I might go.
We're off to vacation in Austin and San Antonio next week, places you've been to and, apparently, enjoyed. I'm not driving there from NJ. Much rather spend one day each way on flying.
Thinking about it, I think about a flying travel day as a day to read a book, which is what I usually do. I like reading a book. Sitting in the airport and on the plane reading is an ok thing, even if somewhat uncomfortable (really just the part on the plane).
"My personal pet peeve are the lowlifes who board a plane carrying a bag of McDonald's. Disgusting."
I have never done that. But I can't tell if your are using sarcasm because you are jealous of the tasty meal, or if you just think anyone that eats McDonald's is disgusting, or if you are a vegan preaching your religion. Please clarify.
For those of us with presbyopia, it's damn near impossible to read when the seat back is reclined into your face.
"Why? Where do you go? I can't think of anywhere to feel that way about, or I might go."
There's no way to see the southern night sky without getting on a plane.
I once had a broken seat that would not go upright. So from takeoff to landing I was forced to recline. I couldn't help but think the person behind me thought I was making a "dick move" the entire flight.
I am the type of person who would not recline just because the person in front of me did. That is just the way I am.
Sometimes I wish I was that dick who didn't care about those around me. You know, the guy at the theater who sits on his coat so he can see the stage better, without considering that he is blocking another person's view. There would be real benefits to being a dick.
Me, I've never had a drink on a plane, even though when I'm not flying I like to have a glass of wine with dinner.
When I was studying abroad in Australia and meeting a bunch of Americans for the first time, I bought them a round of drinks. And then somebody else bought a round of drinks and somebody else bought a round of drinks. And I had a nice happy buzz when I got on the plane.
We were out over the pacific when I got up to go to the bathroom.
The next thing I knew, somebody was banging very loudly on the bathroom door.
What the hell? Why are you banging on the bathroom door?
I opened the door, and nobody was there. I walked back to my seat.
Guy next to me: "Where have you been?"
"I went to the bathroom."
"You've been gone for two hours."
I find it amusing that people are referring to reclining as a dick move.
It seems to me there are two categories of airline passengers:
1) People who like their knee/table space, and are willing to give up reclining in order for everyone to enjoy that same space.
2) People who like to recline, and are willing to give up their knee/table space in order for everyone to enjoy the same reclination.
The airlines have already chosen a compromise, with seats that recline, but don't recline as much as they used to, and not nearly as much us recliners would like.
I don't see how it is a dick move to take the small amount of comfort the airlines offer me, and which I have paid for. If the person behind me is extra tall, or has a particular ailment, and requests politely, I will keep my seat upright ( while not imposing on the person in front of me in the same manner. )
"We're off to vacation in Austin and San Antonio next week, places you've been to and, apparently, enjoyed. I'm not driving there from NJ. Much rather spend one day each way on flying. Thinking about it, I think about a flying travel day as a day to read a book, which is what I usually do. I like reading a book. Sitting in the airport and on the plane reading is an ok thing, even if somewhat uncomfortable (really just the part on the plane)."
You can drive and listen to an audiobook or have the passenger read to the driver. It's much nicer in the car. The conversation is much better too.
Where we've been in the past few years: La Quinta CA/LA, Sedona/Grand Canyon, Italy (obviously a flight), NYC, Estes Park, Lake Placid NY, Disney (Orlando), and Oregon. My husband takes only 1 week off at a time, and never more than 2 weeks in a year, so driving is pretty much out of the question. And even if he would take the time, driving with small boys for days on end is, to me, less relaxing than the tin can in the air. Will we drive more when we're older and alone, and care less about time and more about money and comfort? Very likely. But for now, it's about sucking it up and getting the boys to see what they need to see ... and getting us adults a change of scene, which always seems to put things back in perspective. As much as I hate to fly, I love the vacations we've taken.
@Ignorance: Granted. You paid for the right to stick your seat back into the other person's face.
Thinking about it, I think about a flying travel day as a day to read a book, which is what I usually do. I like reading a book.
I have a very high tolerance for airplane nonsense because this is exactly what I do…when the person in front of me makes that difficult then I get irritated which is exactly why I hate the reclining. I had my book on top of the seat in front of me once in order to read it and was hoping that person would catch a clue. Nope! Good news is most of the time this isn’t an iss
ue.
Also, it’s really hard to judge which planes are going to be a problem and which are not because one airline might use multiple different types of planes depending where you are going. They might switch things up at the last minute too. It’s hard to predict.
Ignorance is Bliss
Total dick move to slam your seat back. It is not your fault if you are a dick but it is the airlines fault for allowing you to be one in that particular manner.
1) People who like their knee/table space, and are willing to give up reclining in order for everyone to enjoy that same space.
I think you are forgetting 'people who like more than two inches between their face and the nasty airline seat in front of them that probably has a million germs'.
Ann Althouse said...
"We're off to vacation in Austin and San Antonio next week, places you've been to and, apparently, enjoyed. I'm not driving there from NJ. Much rather spend one day each way on flying. Thinking about it, I think about a flying travel day as a day to read a book, which is what I usually do. I like reading a book. Sitting in the airport and on the plane reading is an ok thing, even if somewhat uncomfortable (really just the part on the plane)."
You can drive and listen to an audiobook or have the passenger read to the driver. It's much nicer in the car. The conversation is much better too.
LOL. It's 27 hours of driving, so three days (at least) each way. No. Sitting in the car driving for six days of my vacation? LOL. No. I am LITERALLY LOL thinking about that.
Week before last I went from Atlanta to Amsterdam to Edinburg to Amsterdam to Vancouver BC to Minneapolis to Atlanta. Five days.
You survive this by:
1. Having noise canceling headphones hooked to
2. An iPod with hundreds of hours of music
3. An iPad with hundreds of books
4. A stack of magazines
5. Access to power to keep 1 through 3 operating. I use a brick that is good for a couple of charges. Two of the many planes I was on had power under the seats
6. First Class seat
7. Do not utter a single word to another passenger
Very profitable trip. Never in one place long enough to get jet lagged.
I'm so glad I'm short (and I never recline).
So, why don't people just switch seats? Surely someone nearby doesn't need to recline, or doesn't mind if the person in front of them does. All that is required is a little common courtesy. Whatever happened to that?
On an international flight to Germany the person in the seat in front of me aggressively reclined the seat. The tray table was down and there was an unfinished glass of Coke on it. The Coke spilled all over my pants. I spent the rest of the flight soaking wet and sticky.
I loved those pants. They were a light purple cotton pant kind of like harem pants, but not so I Dream of Jeannie like. The stains from the Coke never came out and the pants were ruined.
I could have used a set of those seat defenders then.
Shanna said...
I think you are forgetting 'people who like more than two inches between their face and the nasty airline seat in front of them that probably has a million germs'.
No, I'm not. If the person in front of you reclines, and you recline too, then you come out even. Probably better than even, since as you angle your face is pointing more toward the ceiling, while their chair is heading toward your chest.
The same rules apply here as for driving a car: 1) courtesy; 2) caution; 3) common sense. And if all else fails, the knees-deep-in-the-back trick can come in handy.
Original Mike said...
You paid for the right to stick your seat back into the other person's face.
The right to swing your face ends at the back of my seat.
If you don't want my seat in your face, all you have to do is recline. Problem solved.
Michael said...
Total dick move to slam your seat back
Agreed about the slamming. Just as intentionally kneeing/pushing/bumping the seat in front of you is a dick move.
@Ignorance: Transferral of the obligation to the person behind you to also be a dick (pay it forward?) compounds the affront.
With that kind of stinky attitude, maybe he needed a bath.
"The right to swing your face ends at the back of my seat."
Yet, you're not a dick.
The rypical seat reclining passenger is usually someone whose relaxation extends to flinging their arms behing their heads into your space. They are often, usually, clad in sweats or actual pajamas. Bare feet a must. Lots of heaving around to get comfy.
Ignorance
Knees in the back is not a dick move. It is a "stand your fround" move. Executed in your own space.
Designed for dick moves.
RE: "I feel you don't write like you're 6'4. 8/27/14, 11:10 AM"
I was trying to try to figure out something to say about prejudice and discrimination against height (I wonder if Beta is also left handed?) but then I realized that I thought he was a midget with a wicked sense of humor. Handsome, but a midget.
What a great product - though I wonder if the whole incident was not a staged PR move by the marketers of this device.
Original Mike said...
@Ignorance: Transferral of the obligation to the person behind you to also be a dick (pay it forward?) compounds the affront.
Accept that neither is being a dick. If you have a problem with the amount of space allotted to you by the airlines, complain to them. Don't complain to me about using the space that they gave me ( because I paid for it. ) If you don't wish to use the space allotted to you ( including the space into which your chair reclines ) that is your option.
Michael said...
Knees in the back is not a dick move. It is a "stand your fround" move. Executed in your own space.
If your knees are pushing into my chair, then it is not your ground, and it is not executed in your own space.
It's interesting that the person who made what many here are calling a "dick move" was, in fact, a woman.
Should there be another phrase for when females make dick moves?
Accept should have been Except. Although you really should accept it.
Do they sell Knee Defenders in the SkyMall multipage adds they call magazines?
" If you have a problem with the amount of space allotted to you by the airlines, complain to them."
Gee, thanks for that helpful advice.
I don't want to make the person behind me uncomfortable. I've never met him, but I do have one reason to be empathetic; the poor bastard's on an airplane.
Ignorance:
I can see that you are a recliner.
My knees are in my space. When you launch your chair back into my knees you are invading my space. I will not yield my knees in my space to your dick head back.
Simple. You are welcome to recline into my knees. I am just not going to move them to make you more comfy.
By the way, do you own your own seat extender or do you have to ask for one?
Original Mike said...
I don't want to make the person behind me uncomfortable.
Neither do I. That is why I would never discourage him from reclining his seat.
Michael said...
By the way, do you own your own seat extender or do you have to ask for one?
Neither. I actually have no idea what a seat extender is.
"That is why I would never discourage him from reclining his seat."
Oh, aren't we cute?
Ignorance
Seat belt extender. For fat people who are too big for a regular airline seatbelt.
"Simple. You are welcome to recline into my knees. I am just not going to move them to make you more comfy."
Michael, I guess this is the rub--some people are too tall for their seats (or to put it another way, the seats have too little legroom for some people). In an ideal world, airlines would clearly disclose how much legspace passengers have with the tickets they buy, taking into consideration that the seats in front of them will recline. Then the passenger can decide if it's worth dealing with such cramped space, or if like obese passengers they have to purchase special seats.
Of course, now we're getting into the issue of size discrimination and that headache. But a free functioning market ought to enable consumers to vote with their feet, so to speak.
In the world we live in, airline passengers should try being reasonable and understanding to one another. I prefer to recline, but if the person behind me was clearly too tall and asked me if I would refrain from reclining, I'd most likely indulge them rather than start a fight over it. Life's too short to start fights over something like this.
Original Mike said...
Oh, aren't we cute?
I don't know about we, but I sure as hell am.
But my point is that for some people, the most important consideration in comfort is having space in front of them, while for other people, the most important consideration is being able to recline. If you are the former kind of person then offering to not recline is not some noble gesture if it is accompanied by complaints when the person in front of you reclines.
In an ideal world, there would be plenty of space for everyone. In a world slightly better than ours, they could sort the passengers with the recliners in the back of the plane, an the uprighters in the front. We do not live in that world.
The airlines, the ones who have a strong incentive to make people as comfortable as possible ( within the constraints of packing them in like cattle ) have chosen a compromise of allowing the seats to recline a small amount. That limit seems fair to me.
Michael said...
Seat belt extender. For fat people who are too big for a regular airline seatbelt.
Oh, a fat joke. I get it. Once you told it right. Sorry I didn't figure out what you were talking about. But, not being fat, I had no reason to make the connection that you failed to make.
And really, if you thing about the geometry of the way seats recline, a fat person will clearly lose out in the everybody-recline scenario.
So, wow, fail on so many levels.
When people are crammed together like cattle, many of them begin to act like...cattle. Empathy and decorum go out the window. "This is my little space here and I'm gonna do whatever the hell I want!"
No ones even adressed "seat overflow" (off topic I guess)
I just bite the bullet now for first class. The premium is well worth it. It amazing how much more civil people are if you give them just a little more space. Plus, I'm 6'2" and I can actually cross my legs.
Where you're analysis goes off the rails, Ignorance, is I would love to recline. But I am also cognizant of the impact on my neighbor of following through with my desire.
Ignorance
Fat people always recline. Always.
They also lap over into the adjoining seat. This has caused me to employ the technique we used in kindergarden of drawing an imaginary line down the middle of the arm rest to indicate territory. Draws a dirty look as well as a line.
At a lanky 6-2, if someone reclines in front of me, my knees are in their back whether they like it or not. I've politely asked people not to recline for this reason, and they've agreed not to.
If they didn't, then they'd be more unconfortable than me without even trying, I promise you.
I am just 6'3" tall, so Beta has me beat. But I'm tall enough to have experienced the shock of a seat slammed back against me knees. Ignorance, it's not a dick move for my knees to dig into the back of your reclined seat. There simply is no place for me knees to go except into the back of the reclined seat in front of me, unless you think I should try to angle my legs into the aisle or into the space of the person next to me. Reclining my own seat doesn't help - that just moves my head back from the top of yours. I used to travel constantly as a CPA/auditor (before I got dumber and became a lawyer), and before that I remember sitting in a jump seat on a military cargo plane from Alaska to Seattle - I grew to hate air travel and now avoid it whenever possible.
Just Mike
The civility in first class is very real. Most of the people there fly so much they are very mindful of other people and of the simple courtesies that de-stress the experience.
"I read 40 years ago that alcohol has a big effect on you when you're up in a plane, took that seriously, and didn't want to feel bad. And I've always had trouble getting any sleep on a plane. But somehow it's totally embedded in my psyche: don't fly and drink. "
This is still good advice.
I've been in the middle seat of a 5-seat across section for 13 hours to Tokyo. The reclined seat was the least of my problems.
I've seen passenger fight over overhead bin space on a flight out of Moscow. No one seemed to notice.
I've seen a lady in the exit row refuse to end her phone call so the flight attendant could get her to acknowledge the exit row question. She was escorted off the plane.
I flew on an early 60's Corsair in Tonga that had the original seats. Roomier than today's business class although almost no overhead space.
"Why? Where do you go? I can't think of anywhere to feel that way about, or I might go.
We fly 20+ hours quite often to go to Bali.
lgv
Back in the 80s in China it was first on to the back, last on to first class. Boarding communist style. Cases of cokes piled in the entry way. No announcements. Accelerating on the turn to the runway and then takeoff. People still putting stuff in the overheads. Westerners aghast. Locals nonplussed. Ancient aircraft. Doilies on the armrests
Original Mike said...
But I am also cognizant of the impact on my neighbor of following through with my desire.
Are you cognizant of the impact on the person in front of you of them not reclining?
Michael said...
Fat people always recline. Always.
As is their right, and is quite reasonable since the person in front of them is likely to recline.
I'm 6' tall, and while I would certainly like more leg room, I've never had a problem with not having enough room for my legs. Even with the seat in front of me reclined I have most of an inch to spare, if I sit with my butt fully back in the seat.
Less than 15% of the adult male population is 6' or taller. A significantly smaller percent when you include women and children. It doesn't make sense to expect the vast majority of people to make themselves less comfortable on the off chance that an unusually tall person happens to be sitting behind them.
As I said, if such a person asks nicely I will agree to not recline. But it would be silly to expect the standard to be not reclining.
Ignorance
I suppose. So thrilling to work on a laptop from that comfy position, especially with the device half closed because of the angle of the seat in front.
When the recliner lurches back you have to take care the top of the laptop is not caught under the folded tray. Will snap a computer in half.
The fattest fat guy will not utilize his "right" very long what with my knees in his reclined kidneys.
"Are you cognizant of the impact on the person in front of you of them not reclining?"
Given that I'm not recalling, yeah.
By that logic I am of course cognizant of the impact of me reclining, because the person in front of me reclines, and the impact is trivial.
Try being cognizant of the possibility that it might not impact you the same way it impacts them.
On these, the seat itself moves forward when the seatback is reclined. Thus, when you reclined your seat you'd use only your own knee room.
Brilliant. That's how it should work.
Me, I've never had a drink on a plane, even though when I'm not flying I like to have a glass of wine with dinner.
I did once when it seemed like the plane might crash. I figured it would hurt less if I'd had a drink or two. Nearly all the other passengers seemed to have the same idea.
Airlines have no reason to care about my opinion though. I'm done with flying (hopefully) until I take my kids to Europe after they've studied enough history to appreciate it. Airplanes are too crowded now, they often force you to watch terrible movies, they almost never feed you anymore, they make you go through peeping tom body scanners, and I've twice had to stand there while my suitcase was searched in the middle of the airport. "Yeah, no problem. I'm cool with all my stuff being spread out on this table. No, no, of course I don't mind having to pack again." No thanks to all of that. Driving is fine. There are interesting things to see on the way.
Team Knee Defender.
"because the person in front of me reclines, and the impact is trivial."
Trivial to you. But you refuse to listen to the tall people, and the people trying to work or read. Because to acknowledge them and respond appropriately would impact your comfort.
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Original Mike said...
Trivial to you.
Congratulations on your reading comprehension. Now try a little thinking: apply that concept to your previous comment. If done correctly, maybe you will get my point.
But you refuse to listen to the tall people, and the people trying to work or read. Because to acknowledge them and respond appropriately would impact your comfort.
As I have said repeatedly ( who is refusing to listen to whom? ) I would most likely honor a polite request from a tall person. Beyond that, I will settle for the compromise implemented by the airlines: the amount of recline is severely limited, and control of the recline is granted to the person reclining.
The unwritten rule on this, in my experience, is that it's okay recline on the red-eye, but not on daytime flights. I think most regular business travelers get this, but vacation travels seem to need that extra inch of room for 90 minutes even though everyone else on the plane is using their tray table. People that put their seat back are like people who don't tip. It's not illegal, but you're still a dick for doing it.
On one flight, there was a guy in front of me that slammed his seat back on my laptop, so I slammed it (and him) back forward. The seat goes both ways and if you want to push it into my space, I'll push it right back into yours.
The unwritten rule on this, in my experience, is that it's okay recline on the red-eye, but not on daytime flights.
This makes sense to me. I don't get why you need to recline on an hour long flight at 10am. Are you really taking a nap?
International flights are a completely different story of course.
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