May 25, 2014

"She's just here stabbing like a wild, mad lady... I can't even reach in to get the dog because she's swinging the knife."

"This lady was walking around, I think, with the intent to kill the dog... Who walks around with a butcher knife? We all walk our dogs around here."

Said Kathy Suggs, owner of Angel and JoJo, the pit bulls that were killed by a woman with a filet knife. The authorities fined Suggs $200 for having loose dogs and allowed the woman with the knife to keep the knife.

Self-defense is a bitch.

74 comments:

Nichevo said...

Yes, yes you are. Happy now? Just know we'll be rooting for the dog.

Wince said...

I'd say once you start stabbing a pitbull, you don't stop until he drops or runs away.

If the owner had to "reach in to get the dog", but couldn't, tells me the pitbull did not relent.

Is a blade that long legal in California?

Sorun said...

"Duran's dog suffered bite wounds to the back."

Case closed.

traditionalguy said...

But what about the electric shock dog collars...you mean they don't work unless the dog agrees to it?

Jogging in neighborhoods over thirty years taught me that many territorial dogs will streak out toward the street snarling murder but stop at the curb because of fear the human jogger who stops and faces them and snarls back.

But the smaller the dog the more likely it will come on out and leap with sharp teeth aimed at about crotch level height that the can leap to. That is when self defense is called for. Think of the head as a soccer ball and you are making a corner kick.

Never run from them......

cubanbob said...

Have dogs, put up a fence. It's simply the responsible, neighborly and dog loving way to behave. Heck get an electronic fence as well so the dog doesn't get that close to the physical fence and scare passerby's.

Ipso Fatso said...

"This lady was walking around, I think, with the intent to kill the dog," Suggs said.

So Suggs, she came on your property and attacked the dogs for no reason? Or you were walking your dogs and she attacked them? Suggs, how do you explain the bite marks from your dogs on Duran’s back?

If Duran was not on your property, she was perfectly in her right to defend herself, her dogs and her friend. Your dogs are dead because you are a negligent owner. The sad thing is that you will probably go out and get another 2 dogs and treat them as poorly as you have these two. You are pathetic.

Michael K said...

I don't like pit bulls anyway. I walk my dog on a leash and would react just like that woman did if my dog was attacked. Maybe she had had previous problems with those pit bulls.

I actually worry more about coyotes around here. One was watching us the other morning. My basset hound wanted to go after him but I think the basset looked too much like breakfast to the coyote.

Original Mike said...

"Just know we'll be rooting for the dog."

Not all of us.

grackle said...

I was at a park a few years ago. About 200 yards away was a man walking 2 Rottweilers. They were not on leashes. Then the dogs saw me, paused for a second and began running at full speed towards me. The man stood there, watching.

I drew my 9mm and drew a bead on the dogs. I was waiting for them to get close enough for accurate shots. I would've opened up on them at about 50 yards.

After I drew and aimed he quickly stopped the dogs with verbal commands. I think he meant to call them off all along but wanted to put a scare into me first. He almost had 2 dead dogs on his hands.

What some dog owners do not realize is that if their large dogs, most of them bred for attack, get into an attack mode is that they may not be able to stop them.

If you own an animal that can wound and/or kill there's an obligation to keep the rest of us safe from such an animal.

My pet peeve are people that own exotic animals who are careless or ignorant in their handling and housing of them. Reptiles, poisonous insects, animals of prey, all sorts of wild animals better left in the wild are a danger to the public if bought amongst us.

http://tinyurl.com/l7unpux

http://tinyurl.com/kmprjpo

Big Mike said...

@grackle, we have leash laws in our county. If you lived here (which I don't recommend since refugees from blue states have turned this county blue and Virginia purple) you'd have been within your rights to shoot even after the owner called them off.

And people wonder why concealed carry laws are so popular.

Jupiter said...

"Suggs acknowledged that her pit bulls got loose through an open garage, but she believes Duran overreacted."

Like I say, Dog People are all completely insane.

Jupiter said...

"I would've opened up on them at about 50 yards."

That's too far out, you would almost certainly miss with a handgun, and the bullets might go a long ways.

Freeman Hunt said...

We have leash laws. No one thinks it applies to his dog because his dog is nice.

Michael Fitzgerald said...

Get yourself a "Black Cat" by Cobra. No dog, coyote or cougar will come near you with that little bit of electricity in your hand. No need to engage the animal, no risky spray, no bloody knife. Stops aggressive animals instantly from 50+ yards away, every time.

holdfast said...

I have to think it was self-defense, because if she attacked two pitbulls with just a knife, she's either completely nuts or a world-class knife-fighter.

And after the pit bull "incidents" we had in New Jersey, I have no sympathy for a pitbull owner who exercises less than 100% control over her dogs.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

"Just know we'll be rooting for the dog."

I won't. Won't be rooting for their ignorant, white-trash owner, either. Amazing the number of conservatives (and I'm a conservative) who don't think their ethos of personal responsibility applies also to the dogs they're responsible for. One thing I'll give to the white middle-class liberal (at least around here) is that they are often exquisitely sensitive to the sensibilities of the people they actually live next to. To everybody else, they act like fascists.

holdfast said...

@grackle.

I'd suggest something more than a 9mm for Rotties.

Emil Blatz said...

Having once had the experience of watching my Cocker Spaniel viciously attacked by an out of control, unleashed Cane Corso, I understand this situation. At least she was able to defend her dog. People need to control their animals and respect the zone of instinct they operate within, as they interact with other animals and with humans.

When my dog went to the emergency room at the veterinary hospital I was still in shock and I asked the vet, what could I have done? Pepper spray, a Taser, a gun? She said that they had recently treated a pit bull which had attacked someone in the area, and that the dog was walked into the vet facility with Taser leads still stuck in it, and a wound on its skull where the victim hit it with the claw end of a claw hammer. The vet suggested a gun, but warned "you have to be trained and make the shot count, otherwise you are merely making the pit bull angrier."

In the specific situation I was in, a gun would have been a risky solution, with homes nearby and lots of hard surfaces for a missed shot to ricochet off of.

It's not always fun and games at the dog park.

Big Mike said...

@Jupiter, a running dog can cover 50 yards in not many seconds. If you open up at 50 you can still take a second shot at 20.

Fernandinande said...

Who walks around with a butcher knife?

Someone who might be attacked by pit bulls. I sometimes carry a sword-cane.

Joe said...

three German shepherds

Useless damn dogs.

Sam vfm #111 said...

Coyotes can be a problem in Texas

Texas Gov. Perry fatally shoots coyote

great Unknown said...

@Jupiter:
Depends on how many rounds in the magazine. With a 9mm, you have quite a few shots at long distance, and can still save 10 for close-up work if necessary.

They way I visualize the scene, the shots would have been traveling downward, and buried themselves in the ground if they missed. But you point of considering what's beyond the target is well made.

David said...

Killing 2 pit bulls with a knife is pretty hard ass. My guess is that the pits were so intent on attacking her dog that they paid little attention to her. It would be mighty hard to kill a pit bull with a knife if the pit bull were giving you full attention.

etbass said...

It would be hard to hit a fast moving dog at 50 yards with a shotgun, much more a pistol.

TomHynes said...

The first rule of a knife fight is bring a gun. Rick Perry killed a coyote attacking his dog with his 9.

SteveBrooklineMA said...

Filet knife... slightly more effective than dog biscuits?

Quaestor said...

That's too far out, you would almost certainly miss with a handgun, and the bullets might go a long ways.

My policy is don't criticize someone's self defensive actions unless you know the circumstances in detail.

Even a hefty breed like the Rotweiler can make 20 mph in a dead run, 30 feet per second. If you open fire at 50 yards and miss you have 5 seconds to make a second shot. If one waits until the target is significantly closer the opportunity for a second shot at a moving target is down to two or three seconds. That's very narrow timing when one's life is a stake.

I've seen a schutzhund-trained Rot take down a 250-pound athletic man in a split second. Two Rots can kill with ease. If I'd been on the receiving end of that charge I'd shoot at 80-100 yards; at that point the intent of the owner is reasonably clear. If the dogs have been allowed to charge for 10 seconds the situation is exactly like the dog owner shot at you with a fire arm, the bullets are on the way.

I own a giant breed, the Scottish Deerhound, a dog physically and psychologically capable of running down and killing a 500-pound stag. If one of these charges you with intend you'd better open up immediately, you have no time to think about it. Luckily for you that scenario is about as likely as being attacked by a T. rex; Deerhounds have been selectively bred for 600 years against that possibility, unlike Pit Bulls, Rotweilers, and many other "macho" breeds favored by the virility-challenged.

Nichevo said...

A filet knife is a wildly inappropriate combat weapon. That said, because women are ignorant, it might look scary to them, and that's why she brought it. One does wonder what a woman is doing walking down the block with a filet knife ready at hand for semi-wild dogs.

Hey Crack, 200 years ago that could have been you. I suppose your owner's fine would have been lower due to inflation.

MadisonMan said...

The pit bull owner is angry because it's easier to be mad than to accept that she is 100% at fault for her dogs' deaths.

Anonymous said...

A few years back, we had two young, male dogs that would run wild in the neighborhood unleashed. I haven't been scared of a dog bite since I was 5 yrs old and suddenly, there I was, on my property in my own backyard, with two dogs bearing down on me by the side walkway. The feeling was exactly the same.

They were loud. One held back at the entrance. The owner of one, three houses down, called them off. The more aggressive one took several more callings. It was a standoff at 10 yards for several tense minutes.

I've always been grateful to that first dog for standing down. You could practically hear his doggie thoughts: Hey, hey, come on brah, let's just go home. It's not worth it.

Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...

I don't have a dog in that fight. But, yeah, 9mm if that's the best you've got.

effinayright said...

Right now, I expect it Suggs to be Kathy.

At least I hope so.

Mary Beth said...

Nichevo said...

A filet knife is a wildly inappropriate combat weapon. That said, because women are ignorant, it might look scary to them, and that's why she brought it. One does wonder what a woman is doing walking down the block with a filet knife ready at hand for semi-wild dogs.

5/25/14, 3:23 PM


It might be all she had. It worked.

Quaestor said...

A filet knife is a wildly inappropriate combat weapon.

Especially against a Pit Bull.

A real Pit Bull, i.e. a canine with a real fighting pedigree, is a truly dangerous animal. After centuries of breeding for various and nasty blood sports (Dog vs. dog fighting, bear baiting, bull baiting, etc., before Shakespeare and his business associates bought the Globe, that "wooden O" was primarily a venue for such spectacles.) the Pit Bull in aggression mode is impervious to pain. Law enforcement officers have discovered that pepper spay will often not deter a Pit Bull attack, which is why we hear stories about allegedly harmless dogs being killed without warning by cops.

Even a purpose-made fighting knife is a poor weapon when confronted by two aroused Pit Bulls. The thought of that poor woman fighting for her life with nothing but kitchen cutlery gives me the willies.

The Godfather said...

@TomHynes: You said "The first rule of a knife fight is bring a gun." If only you had been advising the Romney campaign!

(Just in case there are some bleeding heart liberals on this thread, my remark is a metaphor, not a call for violence.)

MathMom said...

Michael Fitzgerald -

Get yourself a "Black Cat" by Cobra.

More info please. Binging and Googling get me videos, bands, and all sorts of things that probably don't repel aggressive animals.

??

Freeman Hunt said...

Yes, more info on the Black Cat please. A gun is fine, but it's a pretty big deal to draw a gun in public. Would be nice to have another option.

Nichevo said...

But a filet knife? Nobody has only a filet knife in their house unless all the others were stolen to prove a point. If you have only two knives it should be a 3-inch paring knife and an 8-inch chef's knife. If she had one of those I would have understood.

A filet knife, either you know what you're doing or it came in a set, and if you know what you're doing you don't pick it. That sort of knife is whippy, not straight, tends to bend and snap for a nothing. You are not slicing cutlets off the dog, you're stabbing it and twisting the blade so it bleeds faster.

Let's grant that she was within her rights. Nonetheless, probably a crazy woman, or wildly stupid.

holdfast said...

I remember as a kid seeing a news story where cops (Montreal I think) tried to stop a pitbull. Three of them emptied their revolvers (.38 Special, I assume) and the dog was still alive with a fourth cop finished it off with a shotgun.

tim maguire said...

The woman probably walked her dogs with a knife because she'd had trouble before. Suggs got off easy--it's her fault her dogs are dead.

Original Mike said...

"But a filet knife? Nobody has only a filet knife in their house "

Every fisherman has a filet knife, for Pete's sake.

Michael K said...

I've been thinking about a sword cane since seeing coyotes around here. California idiots banned mountain lion hunting 40 years ago and we have them all over. One killed a mountain biker about 8 years ago and attacked another woman biking that same day in the same area. Her husband, an oral surgeon, saw her in the pre-op room before her surgery and he fainted. Most of her face was gone. Another woman riding with her beat off the lion.

I know a place in London that has sword canes but am not sure how to get it home. They used to have gun canes but that is probably illegal in England now.

jeff said...


"Even a hefty breed like the Rotweiler can make 20 mph in a dead run, 30 feet per second"

I dont know who is arguing that dogs dont run fast, so you win that straw argument. The disagreement is on hitting a dog sized moving target with a pistol at 50 years. Essentially, you're advocating spraying shots down range and hope to hit the dog. People typing on the internet will hit that dog with the first shot. Everyone else will hit something else and at 50 yards, the second shot going into the ground and not some kid way down range is iffy. You have the right to self defense, but not at the expense of whowever is down range from you.

Nichevo said...

I said ONLY a filet knife. A fisherman would know full well this is not the right tool for the job. Probably take a marlinspike or a fid or a thousand more lethal objects to the big show. Is this chick a fisherwoman? Was she in between coatings?

Ann Althouse said...

Maybe it was something like this, which is slim and folds. I could picture a woman carrying that around in her pocket.

grackle said...

It would be hard to hit a fast moving dog at 50 yards with a shotgun, much more a pistol.

I had no choice but wouldn't it depend somewhat on the type of shot? The targets were coming unwaveringly head-on straight into my aim. I was loaded with Hollowpoints, 10 + 1 rounds. I would have had, what, 3 or 4 seconds? I think I could've gotten off 4 or 5 accurate shots within that amount of time. If they had reached me I would have offered them my off-arm to gnaw on while I tried some head shots.

I'd suggest something more than a 9mm for Rotties.

You go with what you have. I'd rather have my 9mm than the filet knife the lady used.

Big Mike said...

@grackle, if the 9mm will take a grown man out of a fight, it should do the same to a dog. If you carried a .45 ACP you'd have fewer rounds to work with, and fewer still if your carry was a Smith & Wesson 629.

@holdfast, I'd like to have a .30-06 if you tell me in advance that I'm going to be in a gunfight, but it's pretty hard to do concealed carry with firearms chambered in that round.

Fritz said...

""But a filet knife? Nobody has only a filet knife in their house "

Every fisherman has a filet knife, for Pete's sake."

Or three or four. Unlike most kitchen knives, they tend to be well sharpened. She could have picked worse.

Nichevo said...

Ann Althouse said...
Maybe it was something like this, which is slim and folds. I could picture a woman carrying that around in her pocket.
5/25/14, 7:56 PM

Sure, Ann, I can picture a lady carrying that around too. Because she doesn't understand what is involved in killing a man, or a dog. In other words, ignorant.

It sure is pretty. The only thing that would make this better is if it had Swarovski crystals. Have you ever watched any kind of surgery? Do you have any notion of how tough living tissue is? I'm not even talking about bone. (That said, bite into a pork sparerib bone then try the same on a beef bone. Ouch).

Stick that into, say, my thigh while I'm trying to go all Harvey Keitel on you. Sure it may go deep. Now twist it. Or wiggle it. Or try to pull it out to ward off my friend Christopher Walken. The odds are excellent that the blade snaps off at the handle. My leg hurts, but I can now share my pain with you absent further risk of stabbing. I might even bleed out, but your future will still involve more cowbell.

You might have done better trying to gut me, but you might or might not get past my six-pack and/or my abdominal fat. If you went for a stab to the heart, this would be the classic case where the blade would snap on a rib. I just don't like your odds.

Best bet for such a knife is to go from behind for the throat (i.e. murder)...or maybe another artery, femoral, brachial...which is where exactly on a dog? I wouldn't even like to go for a kidney with that toothpick.

I will say this, once the man is subdued, it might do for torture purposes. But not against resistance by man or dog. You might as well take up a scalpel. At least go for the catling.

This woman, either she is some kind of dogwalking ninja, or else she got really really really really lucky. And frankly it makes me think the dogs weren't trying that hard. I'd like to know what kind of wounds the dogs had.

Nichevo said...

Ann, let me try and put this in terms that you might understand better. It would be like wearing stiletto heels on a three day hike.

Nichevo said...

IIRC the Vietnam era "Hush Puppy" was a suppressed S&W 9mm, designed expressly for Navy SEALs silencing watchdogs. If it's good enough for our SOF operators, I suppose it's good enough for me.

RMc said...

And this is why I own cats.

Nichevo said...

Exactly, Rob! No one need feel badly about killing cats. There are at least 101 uses for a dead cat, which is more than they have to offer when they are alive.

Nichevo said...

Is there some part of the story I missed where this broad is a fisherman or a fisherman's wife?

richardsson said...

I saw the feed online form KNBC, the L.A. station, where she showed the knife on camera. She used a 10 or 12 inch chef's knife, not a filet knife. It was similar to one I've used to cut steaks, slice roast beef, slice oranges, etc. If it's properly sharpened, it would be able to kill a dog but I wouldn't want to try it.

Nichevo said...

You carry that, I guess, because you are a gardener, is that right? So this is an occupational tool. I carry a mini box cutter and a multitool for my work, either of which I feel would be far more lethal than that farm implement. In fact I'd rather have the fish knife.

That would just annoy me. You couldn't hardly stab hard enough with that to penetrate and while nasty looking the cuts would be superficial. If you went at me through a jacket it would do nothing but get caught.

I have no particular reason to think you would get through a hairy coat with one swipe of that thing either, and once the dog has eaten your face then it will lick its wounds and move on. The dog is not going to be intimidated by that blade. The point, not the edge, is what wins fights, and even the edge is both safer and more dangerous when it is sharp.

That thing is designed to be non lethal; that thing is designed to stop you from hurting yourself. I am NOT a tree, I am a man. You will observe that doctors do not use sawtooth blades except on bone. They use sharp pointed blades to cut flesh. That is not a sharp pointed blade.

That...you know what, that is a best effort to be sure. Better than nothing. Good job! Carry on! I know you Meadhouse type people like praise.

I wasn't speaking of @rooting@ for the dog against @you@, but if you're regarding that as your big edge, yes, I am @betting@ on Mr Rottie. The more so as I doubt you ever get it out in time. I will admit as a tool, it is presumably sturdy, but no, just no.

Get a pistol if you're afraid. Are you a convicted felon, that you feel unable to carry something more useful? Surely not- your wife, a law professor!

Nichevo said...

I don't recall if I edited my prior comment to say this but, Meade, I apologize to the killer of the dogs, I would in fact rather have the fish knife than that thing.

Quaestor said...

Maybe it was something like this [folding fillet knife], which is slim and folds. I could picture a woman carrying that around in her pocket.

Nope. It was a fixed bladed fillet knife like this, but likely much cheaper, like $8 at Walmart.

Ann is good at gleaning information from the web articles she selects for commentary. However, this time she didn't watch the embedded video. If she had she would have seen the knife proudly displayed, complete with blood stains.

Michael Fitzgerald said...

Hi MathMom and Freeman Hunt- Try googling "Black Cobra stun gun". The Black Cat is a little hand-sized that throws an arc between 2 posts and makes a noise that scares the animal. Way better than any knife, gun, or spray because you don't have to engage the animal at all. When you see trouble coming, hold it up and press the trigger. The dog or coyotes see the electric arc and hear that crackling and they keep away. Even 50 yards away or more, they won't approach that spark and that noise. You too Meade, put that bone saw away and get a stun gun.

Anonymous said...

Hunting knives is a most important thing for your survival tool kit. Hunting knives helps in many ways as they are being used by military personals, pilots, hunters and all outdoor enthusiasts.

Nichevo said...

Yes, I repeat without the apparently unwelcome detail that your pocket pruning saw or whatever that is would not be an effective weapon.

Nichevo said...

skip that last one. I see you decided to back out that whole piece of the thread.

Nichevo said...

Richardsson, I didn't see the video you describe, but that makes a little more sense. I would go for a pitbull with my 8 inch Wusthof if I really had to. I agree it would not be my first choice but it would be my first choice of the knives I have in the house.

But Quaestor, while I didn't play the video in Ann's link, I did see the still picture and it did appear to be a real fillet knife of the cheap sort. It seemed to have blood on it so I assumed that it was the real thing.

Big Mike said...

I agree that the woman in the picture appeared to be holding some sort of kitchen knife and not a fisherman's filet knife. Though a good reason for carrying a filet knife is that most of them come with a cheap scabbard that can be put safely in the outside pocket of a purse or hung from a belt.

If I think I'm going to be bringing a knife to a dog fight I'd rather have a K-bar or maybe better yet this knife (available via the Althouse Amazon portal). As Crocodile Dundee said. ...

Fernandinande said...

Blogger Joe said...
three German shepherds
Useless damn dogs.


More like useless damned media, can't keep a simple story straight:

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/animal-rights/2-pit-bulls-attack-ca-street-stabbed-death-woman-protecting-puppy
"They then turned and started attacking Duran’s 6-month-old husky/Queensland heeler-mix puppy, reports the Victorville Daily Press."


"This lady was walking around, I think, with the intent to kill the dog."

See why she stupidly says that, here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2639037/Woman-stabs-two-pit-bulls-death-filet-knife-attacking-her.html

tmitsss said...

By any chance were those Rottweilers named Zeus and Apollo?

David Davenport said...

Hi MathMom and Freeman Hunt- Try googling "Black Cobra stun gun". The Black Cat is a little hand-sized that throws an arc between 2 posts and makes a noise that scares the animal. Way better than any knife, gun, or spray because you don't have to engage the animal at all. When you see trouble coming, hold it up and press the trigger. The dog or coyotes see the electric arc and hear that crackling and they keep away ...

Ummm-hmm. Why don't you test the validity of the Black Cat or Cobra ( Which is it? ) by compelling two large dogs to attack you while you defend yourself with this gadget.

Be sure to report the results of your real life, personal experience back to the Althouse blog.

Quaestor said...

Regarding dogs and electrical gadgets:

The Black Cat Cobra, or whatever it's called, is a very suspect product. I seriously doubt any dog or coyote that has not been pre-conditioned will retreat from a low amperage discharge unless at extremely close range. Unequivocal claims of effectiveness should always be greeted with gimlet-eyed skepticism. Lots of third-party disinterested testing would have to be done before I'd consider relying on anything like it. Besides, dogs and coyotes aren't the only hazards one might face. What about bears? What about cougars?

Sam L. said...

My dog has been charged twice by one dog; owner stopped it once, my foot did it 2nd. My pocketknife will, if need be.

I'm guessing that "filet" knife was a boning knife (mine is pretty sturdy and not very flexible)--and likely wasn't very sharp.

Freeman Hunt said...

I have heard a powerful stun gun before. I can imagine that that would scare off a dog. It's a very strange, sharp, hostile sound.

In any case, I don't think Michael was saying that you could fight off attacking dogs with a stun gun. He was saying that you could possibly scare them off before they attacked. Worth a shot. It's not like you can go around shooting and stabbing dogs you aren't sure about.

pst314 said...

grackle "I think he meant to call them off all along but wanted to put a scare into me first."

If true, the police needed to know that he was someone to watch.

Michael Fitzgerald said...

Hi David Davenport and Quaestor- I have used the stun gun several times in the past with excellent results, including once when two huge pitbulls running loose saw me walking my dogs across the street and started to charge us. They were nearly across the road when I activated the charge, and they stopped instantly and retreated back across the street. Another time, there was a pack of coyotes in the street that was heading our way until they saw and heard the stun gun, then they ran into the woods. I recommend it because I have seen how effective it is at keeping attackers at a distance, something no gun, knife or pepper spray can do.

Nichevo said...

Facts garnered from the dailymail link:

Suggs is black (photo)

Duran is crazy (photo)

Duran has worthless boyfriend (obviously) who did not know how crazy she is

(I mention the first only because someone accused her of white trash-ism.)