May 24, 2014
Invisible fence = invisible jerks.
I don't see a fence and I don't see you, owners of property encircled by invisible fencing. You, like your fence, are invisible. You are not around to apologize to me when your dog comes charging out to the sidewalk, barking as if he's about to spring on me. You are not around to — what? — laugh at how I jump with fright, because — look! — there's a sign: Invisible Fence. Yeah, well, fortunately I can read English, not that everyone can. I'm thinking of the little kids. And the fact is, even though I see the sign, when the rampaging dog suddenly appears, at some animal level, my body startles. The fact that I know and I understand the concept doesn't block the lightning bolt that strikes my nervous system. And speaking of lightning, why are you attempting to control your dog with electric shocks? Who the hell are you?
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A 10 foot setback from the sidewalk would go a long way.
There was a dog in my neighborhood with particularly thick fur. I saw him everywhere with his shock collar on, trotting down the street like he owned it. He always walked right down the middle of the road, too - sort of a doggie middle finger to anyone trying to shock him into staying in his yard.
This reads like the video manifesto of the kid who went on the shooting spree.
There was one like that around here with a not too nice dog behind it. (At least, I assume there was an invisible fence. There was no sign, but the dog would run and stand at the edge of the curb snarling. Maybe he was trained not to cross. I don't know.) Always hated passing that house.
I knew a woman who was just little when the dog charged out to the extent of its chain, snapped the chain, got her by the face, and disfigured her for life. Through the wreckage of her face you could see what beauty she had been destined for.
I knew a little boy whose parents begged the dog owners to control the dog. They laughed. The little boy got a Sheridan and pumped it 10 times, which is almost beyond the capacity of a light child. When the dog came out snarling,he picked the spot on the invisible line between eye and ear.
Carry milkbones in a baggie.
Instructional video.
What happens if some George Zimmerman shoots a charging dog?
Electric fences are fine for a nice, submissive dog that the owner doesn't want to wander off but for a big, aggressive dog, bad idea. Those dogs will test the fence every time and, one day, the battery will die and it will get through. We will be reading about I'm sure.
i did a guy who had a tat with a huge pic of an elephant with ears that went out to his thighs in his mid section/pube region....it stopped at his hog which was the elephants long trunk.
it was incredibly hot but all the while I thought.....how long did that tat take to make? there must of been many consuling sessions and measuring.
he was from hungary-hungary and romania are white hot this summer if you didn't know.
the elephant tat tusks framed his hog and shaved pube region and went all the way around to his asshole....that's art.
i am in my 40's now and am still in shock and totally grateful that i am able to pull in this type of trade.
the day that it ends what i am i do?
they want to go out on a date with me afterwards but like that will never ever happen...i am married and immediately calling the cab-no I am not going to drive you to bumpfuckland mass-sorry-the harvard t stop is four blocks that way-take care.
One problem with the "invisible fence"s is that, once the dog is outside, he gets the same shock trying to get back inside. It is a major defect. Also they should only be used in rural areas, not cities.
I hate the electric fence also, for the same reasons. Also, if a dog does break through, they will not cross it again to go back to their home. Many dog adoption agencies (i.e. rescue organizations) make the adopter sign a contract which forbids them.
There is no better way to train a bird dog than with an electric collar.
Time for mandatory electric fence trigger warnings?
This has recently become an issue for me.
I have a neighbor who it seems has recently acquired 2 large mastiffs. And they are left outside a large part of the day within the confines of an invisible fence.
I have 2 issues, the incessant barking anytime anyone is within eye, or earshot of them, and the unreliability of the "fence" those shock collars have to be maintained with fresh batteries, and if a dog runs through the fence (it's already happened once), then they're out!
I already know my neighbor made a mistreat, what I'm wondering, is how long it's going to take him to figure it out.
My post refers to 2 different properties in my neighborhood, where the lots are pretty small and it's a really pleasant walk around the neighborhood, where there are some very nice houses and gardens, very well kept, very conducive to enjoyable walking.
The lots in question are on the high side of the hill, so there is a retaining wall that is, in one case, almost shoulder level, and in the other case, maybe knee or hip level. In each case, the dog comes right out to the edge of the lawn that extends to the top of the retaining wall, so the sense of the dog coming at your head is especially scary.
The people in the house must hear the dog and know the dog does this. Do they look out the window and see sedate old ladies like me suddenly react with a frightened look? I can't believe they don't! Why would anyone want to present themselves to their neighbors like this?
It's not like we're out in the country or have big suburban yards and no sidewalks. This is the most pedestrian-friendly neighborhood you can imagine. Why would anyone think invisible fencing is appropriate?
What about other dogs, dogs people are walking? The charging dog is going to get a reaction from the leashed dog. And there are lots of dogs that are walked around here and lots of people who care about dogs. Why would you put on a show of treating your dog with pain reinforcement?
Even if you had a real fence, a dog rampaging in the yard and barking isn't acceptable in a residential place. Rampaging without a fence is so unacceptable. Even if I didn't have a strong startle reaction, I would't accept a dog out in the yard acting like that.
People with electric-shock fences also think they are protecting their dogs from cars. In our neighborhood, the problem isn't the dog who might run away, lunge, or bite, but rather what can run into the fenced territory—when the well trained dog fears to leave the area.
It's quite the view to open the shades in the morning and see a coyote in a play posture, facing a friendly dog on a driveway.
Charging dog-
Never turn your back-
Stand your ground-
Point your finger directly at the dog-
Yell, "NO"-
Like Robert Mitchum
Stops 'em dead in their tracks every time
Works for me!
For the helpless
1. Carry a baggie of milkbones (small).
2. Toss one near the dog. He'll investigate, eat it.
3. Toss another. Repeat.
The next time you walk by, do the same thing.
The dog will soon get the idea that some of the strangers he's successfully made to go away are friends.
A trained guard dog won't be interested, but nobody has trained guard dogs. Just regular dogs concerned about their property.
"I would't accept a dog out in the yard acting like that."
Would a shock or citronella spray collar triggered by barking be acceptable. Or, is that considered putting on a on a show of treating your dog with pain reinforcement?
Imagine two so-called correction collars. One for the fence and one for the barking. A double show. But, pleasant walking. Choices.
@rh
I want tips on how to train the human beings not to be jerks.
I'm throwing this blog post to them as a milk bone.
Sadly, the class of "animal lovers" excludes those who really like people and animals--those who would never think of owning any.
These "animal lovers," whether owners of dogs or cats, don't much care about startled old ladies, extermination of songbirds, or the spreading of 40+ cat and 40+ zoonoses, ranging from rabies and tuberculosis to hepatitis and toxoplasmosis.
I think that if I were threatened by charging dogs, I bring one along walking with me that's trained to kill attacking dogs in self-defense.
"Would a shock or citronella spray collar triggered by barking be acceptable. Or, is that considered putting on a on a show of treating your dog with pain reinforcement?"
I don't have a dog, and I am not a dog trainer, but I strongly believe that people who get dogs ought to train them. I think anyone who keeps an untrained dog in a residential neighborhood ought to be ashamed. Snapping an electric collar onto a dog isn't training him!
"1. Carry a baggie of milkbones (small). 2. Toss one near the dog. He'll investigate, eat it. 3. Toss another. Repeat."
1. At what point in the process of a dog charging at your head are you supposed to gently toss food at it?
2. I don't see myself as privileged to feed other people's dogs without their express permission.
3. Whether I choose to get involved in the enterprise of attempting to train other people's dogs or not, it is their responsibility to control their dogs properly.
My thoughts are not about the dog, but about the people. I don't care one way or another about befriending the dog. What I am saying is: I feel angry at the people. Even an hour later, I am angry at people I don't know and I didn't see: Invisible Jerks.
"I think that if I were threatened by charging dogs, I bring one along walking with me that's trained to kill attacking dogs in self-defense."
That is directing anger in the wrong place. It's not the dog's fault. People need to take responsibility.
Anyway, if I were walking a defensive dog in that situation, the dog would have to be on a leash, and if I were the one holding the leash, the dog's reaction would likely pull me over onto the ground.
In suburban Southern California we tend to have small front yards, and bigger back yards. So if you've got a dog, it's not going to be in the front yard. The critters still bark though and that can be an issue with the neighbors. [I've owned dogs all my life and have one now. When she barks, she comes in or is brought in to the house.}
But aggressive dogs can be a real issue. A homeowner who lived about
1/2 a mile away as the crow flies (my neighborhood is a hllly area with a lot of canyons) kept two big Rottweilers. A few years back the two Rottweilers escaped their chain link fenced yard and went on a very extended tour of the neighborhood. A 12 year old girl was walking her miniature poodle towards my cul de sac when the two Rottweilers attacked and killed the poodle. A neighbor drove the dogs away by banging a shovel on the sidewalk next to them; the police came and secured the dogs. The dogs were returned to their owner who, "promised to take care of them and see that they did not get out again."
Frankly had I owned the dogs I would have have them put down then and there--especially the younger more aggressive male Rottweiler. But the dog owners didn't do it.
Karma can be a bitch. Eighteen months later the Rottweiler owners were out of the house for a one or two day trip. The owner's daughter came by the house to take care of things in her parents absence. The daughter had her two year old child with her. The male Rottweiler attacked and killed the two year old child.
At that point the owners (now grieving grandparents) did part of what they should have done in the first place--put the male Rottweiler down.
I love dogs. But for all you bleeding heart PETA types out there, a vicious dog has no place in society.
If you have friends or relatives (as I do) who raise cattle or sheep in near exurban areas, you'll know that gentle little Fluffy can be a vicious killer in a pack of town dogs. The "wild" isn't really very far away.
I have no use for and will not tolerate a vicious dog.
I'm in favor of so-called pain reinforcement.
As soon as my dog was old enough I started her in dog training schools. She went to five different schools. So, I've seen different approaches.
The "dog whisperer" types of schools are lame, imho. The schools that fit dogs with linked correction collars (often called a choke chain) on day one are extremely effective.
Anywho, I've never used these shock collars but I wouldn't say it's bad to do so. Tough training can be the best training. And, Althouse seems to not understand that the dogs are not being shocked when they're harassing her. They're only shocked a little during the initial familiarization with the invisible fence. After that, only Althouse is in pain, the dogs are loving life as they terrorize her.
We had quite a debate in my town over allowing people to let their dogs run free in a local park. I was quite opposed for the same reason you hate invisible fences. I like to walk peacefully and do not the stress of being lunged at by a dog I do not know. Many dog owners acted like they were the victims because there was no place within the city where they could legally run their dogs. It never occurs to them that anyone would be startled or stressed out by their dog, the dear who would never bite anyone.
I would just go up to the house and introduce myself to the neighbor and explain what happened and ask to be introduced to the dog. The owners might not get the message or give a damn but at least the dog would be less likely to be aggressive in the future.
I'm coming out with my hands up. Please don't shoot.
We have an electric fence to keep out dog from wandering, and indeed our dog is inclined to bark excitedly at people. People she does not know. And people she does. (Me, for example.) She does this while wagging her tail ferociously and wiggling in a menacing manner. Were you to approach, she might well lick you uncontrollably.
Our fence is set well back from the sidewalk. We have a sign at the fence line "Beware of Dog." It was given to us a friend as a joke. Anyone with a reasonable familiarity with dogs can see that her barking is friendly excitement, not a menace. Over 8 years, she has remained a completely peaceable dog.
The fence is there to protect her health and safety, not yours. She does not get cars, and our busy street would have long ago been the death of her if we did not have the fence.
As for controlling the dog without electric shock, it can be done, but many dogs are more likely to escape a physical fence than an electric one. Some dogs will always try to get over, under, around and through a physical fence. Most will stay away from an electric one after one or two shocks.
Dog owners have a responsibility to control their dogs. For some dogs an electric fence is a appropriate option. And perfectly humane for the dog. For other dogs it is not. It's the dog owner's responsibility to sort that out.
"Snapping an electric collar onto a dog isn't training him!"
But it is. It's just a method you do not approve of.
One or two encounters with the shock and most dogs learn the border. Even when the fence is not on, they respect the border.
The shock is uncomfortable for the dog but so is being hit by a car.
Some owners can train some dogs to stay within a border simply by repetitive and effective training. But that is beyond the abilities of most owner-dog combinations. Even for amenable dogs with talented trainers it's unreliable, especially for dogs with a strong prey drive. (Huskies!)
I'm fine with them if it comes with a shock for barking. People get dogs, don't exercise them, leave them outside to bark, bored, all day and half the night. Are they thinking? Do they care? Likely renters.
Yell, "NO"-
Like Robert Mitchum
Stops 'em dead in their tracks every time
Works for me!
So far.
Ugh. I can go on and on about the topic of poor dog owners.
We have a neighbor whose backyard is adjacent to our street. He has six or so untrained dogs that prowl that backyard and have torn up every inch of grass. We like to put our 1-year-old in the stroller and the 3-year-old on her glider bike and go for walks ... naturally every single time the dogs go crazy. Which I can deal with. It's annoying, but at least they're fenced.
But then a week or so ago my husband and daughter were walking and biking by, and she lingered a little to look at the dogs as they passed. And their owner had the audacity to step into his backyard and yell at THEM. "Hey, can you guys not come down here to look at my dogs? It makes them bark and it makes my neighbors mad."
REALLY? REALLY, SIR?
So of course now my daughter gets scared every time she hears the dogs barking (i.e. every time we go down the street) because she thinks she's going to get lectured. For biking too slowly down the street and making the dogs bark.
Also, once my mom was walking down her street with an elderly friend, and a dog came charging at them and yapping. The owners of the dog were sitting on the porch and laughing. Oh, don't be so scared, he's not that big, etc. etc.
So my mom stepped forward, clapped her hands hard, and shouted "Shoo!" at the dog. It ran -- into the street -- and got hit by a car.
The dog's owners were very upset and tried to blame my mom. Sorry, jerks. If you had bothered to train and/or fence it...
I always carry a visible 9 mm to deal with this. I'm too old to have these shocks to my system.
"the dogs are loving life as they terrorize her"
= why the people are jerks.
1. At what point in the process of a dog charging at your head are you supposed to gently toss food at it?
When he stops and is standing there barking at you.
2. I don't see myself as privileged to feed other people's dogs without their express permission.
Tell them it's the same stuff that you feed your dog, if asked.
3. Whether I choose to get involved in the enterprise of attempting to train other people's dogs or not, it is their responsibility to control their dogs properly.
That's a tough problem you've got there. See Erik Berne, Games People Play.
"Anyway, if I were walking a defensive dog in that situation, the dog would have to be on a leash, and if I were the one holding the leash, the dog's reaction would likely pull me over onto the ground."
That would make you an irresponsible dog walker, walking a dog you can't control in order to protect yourself from the dogs that belong to irresponsible dog owners who can't control their dogs.
No dog for you!
"One or two encounters with the shock and most dogs learn the border."
Most dogs… but how do I know if I'm dealing with one of the "most dogs"? I googled for lawsuits and saw stories of dogs killing little kids. Is it any answer to say that most dogs would not have done that?
You dog should be leashed or enclosed within a fence (or in a dog park that is fenced in) or out in the country.
Why any dog owner things anything else is beyond me.
Dogs kill people and they scare people and hurt people.
If you're a dog owner/lover, you need to deal with that reality.
"Our [invisible] fence is set well back from the sidewalk."
I approve!
"The fence is there to protect her health and safety, not yours. She does not get cars, and our busy street would have long ago been the death of her if we did not have the fence."
The sign I saw today took that perspective. I think it was something like "Dog protected by invisible fence."
This is part of what angers me about the people involved here. Like they are empathetic toward the DOG!
What pathetic self-involved denial!
Turning over your duty to control your dog to an electric collar device seems to be an arrogant claim to get by and buy your way out of blame for the failures that system always incurs. The dogs do not fear a shock,
they just go along with it until they don't.
Althouse,
I've read all the responses, and there are good suggestions from lots of people. But I wonder why you don't just talk to them. You know their address, you know the dog will be there. This isn't an unexpected occurrence. If you can't get to the door because of the dog, you can mail them a letter and state the problem.
You don't seem like a shrinking violet to me - why have you not brought the problem directly to their attention?
And, if they are indifferent to your problem, mentioning your profession might cause a bit of palm-sweat to develop, as they consider the possibility of a lawsuit.
"But I wonder why you don't just talk to them. You know their address, you know the dog will be there. This isn't an unexpected occurrence. If you can't get to the door because of the dog, you can mail them a letter and state the problem."
I am speaking, through my blog, to everyone who is maintaining a situation like this. The particular 2 households in my neighborhood only exemplify a problem.
Obviously, I'm not going to walk up to the door because I don't do things like that, and the dog is there.
In the house where I had the problem today, there was a young boy on the porch who saw everything. He looked straight at me. Maybe he had the moral fiber to speak to his parents. Maybe he was simply puzzled.
But, no. I will not write a letter to these people.
I might call the police.
"And, if they are indifferent to your problem, mentioning your profession might cause a bit of palm-sweat to develop, as they consider the possibility of a lawsuit."
Absolutely not. Threatening a lawsuit? That's your idea of the ideal approach. No.
I write this blog post.
Level 2 is calling the police.
It's not as if they don't know what they are doing.
I am trying to affect the culture. This is a commercial product that some people think is appropriate to use.
I am using my profile on the web to get out the message that it is not appropriate. I am trying to play a part in changing the culture.
And I don't see anyone here making the argument that this is an acceptable way to treat one's pets and neighbors.
Take a clue, people.
Maybe they don't read your blog. Why are you so above talking to them? If you don't want to go to their house and talk, you can call them. There are apps that can look up phone numbers of addresses you are by.
Having said all that, I don't trust invisible fences as I have greyhounds. They can take off well beyond the range of them. They stay behind my six foot privacy fence.
Now having said that, I have a shock collar to train my newest hound. I want him to learn how to come to me on command, heal, stay in place until I release him, bark only on my command. So far, the first two are working well.
"One or two encounters with the shock and most dogs learn the border."
Most dogs… but how do I know if I'm dealing with one of the "most dogs"? I googled for lawsuits and saw stories of dogs killing little kids. Is it any answer to say that most dogs would not have done that?
Let me clarify. The responsible dog owner will quickly be able to determine if the dog will respect the electric fence. If the dog does, the fence is safe and effective for both the dog and the passerby.
If the dog does not show that it will respect the fence, an electric fence is not appropriate and some other more effective means of control must be used.
Unfortunately there is not a method that can assure you, the passerby, that the dog owner is responsibly containing the dog. That goes for electric fences, physical fences, chains and boundary training. None are proper protection from all dogs. You have to design the restraint to fit the dog, and certainly there may be passerby anxiety. We dog owners should mitigate but we can not eliminate your anxiety.
I do not disagree with much of your underlying critique, but your seemingly blanket condemnation of the electric fence confirms your self admitted unfamiliarity with dog ownership and dog training.
I do agree with you that aggressive dogs or dogs which make aggressive displays should not be restrained by electric fence. But that is as far as my agreement goes.
@rh
"I want tips on how to train the human beings not to be jerks.
I'm throwing this blog post to them as a milk bone."
I'm mild-mannered to a fault and certainly not given to threats but the impenetrable ignorance of people who are oblivious or indifferent to the dangers their uncontrolled dogs pose drives me right into seeing red. After several incidents I told one neighbor (geographic proximity, not comity) that if their dog came at me in the street again I would shoot it. If it hurt me, my family, or my dogs, I would shoot them (the neighbor). I live in a county where most people are armed and statements like that have some degree of credibility.
The dog went to live at the neighbors other house in Palm Desert. Needless to say, we don't barbecue together much but, Jesus, enough is enough.
I have 2 very large dogs and I am not a very large woman. I love my dogs so we all went for training. They are now well behaved animals and people are amazed that I can walk with these large dogs. But I knew I needed to be able to control them. They are great dogs, love everyone and people are happy to see us coming, instead of telling me to leave my dogs at home. I don't understand people who don't care enough about their animals to make it comfortable for them too.
I agree with the professor. She shouldn't have to undertake a personal plea with the dog owners. But sometimes you have to do what you shouldn't have to do. And having a husband who understands dogs seems to me like a possible solution; send Meade.
Ann Althouse said...
And I don't see anyone here making the argument that this is an acceptable way to treat one's pets and neighbors.
Take a clue, people.
I am making that argument. The electric fence is a device that is appropriate for many dogs in many locations if used correctly. You are over expansive in your condemnation.
Dogs can break chains, defeat physical fences, slip leashes and sneak out of the house if a door or window is left open for a second. Whether the risk is high or negligible depends on the dog, and how the risk is managed depends on the owner.
Electric fences are no different. Reliable in some cases, unreliable in others.
It's not the dog or the device that is the problem. It's how the owner applies the device to the particular dog.
This is what is called a perverse side effect.
It used to be that dogs were loose. They wandered and played with the kids, and got hit by cars.
But they were all socialized from constant interaction with people.
The dog catcher got called only for problem dogs, not stray dogs.
But then came the laws - dangerous dogs, you know, hysterical women said - and dogs never met anybody.
So they're mostly suspicious now.
Hysterical women then make this induced suspicion a new problem.
Actual solution, intereact with the dog.
Ann Althouse said...
"The fence is there to protect her health and safety, not yours. She does not get cars, and our busy street would have long ago been the death of her if we did not have the fence."
The sign I saw today took that perspective. I think it was something like "Dog protected by invisible fence."
This is part of what angers me about the people involved here. Like they are empathetic toward the DOG!
What pathetic self-involved denial!
You seem upset. If you reread my comments as a whole, you will see that I clearly agree that the dog owner has the responsibility to protect you as well as the dog.
In the case of my dog, which is the one I was talking about, she is no threat to anyone's health and safety. That is an evaluation I have made based on having the dog for 8 years, and a lifetime of ownership of and interaction with dogs. I am 100% confident in that evaluation.
If my dog were at all a risk to anyone, I would say that the electric fence is there for mutual protection of the dog and the passerby. If she showed any kind of aggressive tendencies or was inclined to aggressive display, I would not rely solely on an electric fence.
I try to be a careful writer. Sometimes I do not measure up. You try to be a careful reader. I ask you to read what I said again. You might be able to see it in a different light, or maybe not.
This sounds like a lack of empathy, as the dog's owners are unable to understand how frightening their dogs are to strangers.
I had to learn a tough lesson when little Barnie would jump up on people.
The lesson was that people don't like dogs jumping up on them, even if the dog is little Barnie!
All people except one jerk I knew, who relearned little Barnie to jump up on people after I yelled at him not to.
"Invisible fence = invisible jerks."
Anyway, if I am being a jerk about invisible fences, at least I am visible about it.
I saved a dog this morning, as he running across 38th Ave. I pulled over and talked to him.
His name was Murphy.
I got him into the vehicle, called the owner, and drove him two blocks to her. I wondered if this had ever happened before and if it will happen in the future. (He was micro-chipped as well has had a tag with his owner's #)
Little Murphy was as good a dog I've met, Barnie excluded.
How about tips for handling the people who bring their dogs off leash to children's playgrounds? It often makes no difference if you talk to the people and point out that the dogs have to be on-leash.
"Oh, yeah, but my dog is really hyper, and he needs to run around."
"Oh, yeah, but my dog is really nice."
"Oh, yeah, but..."
Everyone says his dog is nice and loves children. Everyone. The dog could be snarling at the children, and the person would still say that. The person has no awareness whatsoever that he (nearly always she actually) and the dog are total strangers to the people they're bothering, and that the people have no way of knowing the temperament of the animal.
If you confront people you also run the risk of riling up an Irrational Dog Person who may cause a scene.
Perhaps the milkbones would solve this problem. Keep throwing them farther and farther away. If the person becomes angry, one could throw one very very far, so that the person has to run after the dog and goes away.
I love my invisible fence. I have a black lab and a fenced half acre lot with lots of holes in the fence. The difference in cost between getting the fence replaced and getting an invisible fence was about four thousand dollars, so I went with the invisible fence. The real fence is still there, and its all in the backyard anyway so passers by arent an issue. It came with an inside unit that you can use, and we use it to keep the dog out of the kids rooms. He hasnt even worn the collar for months but he stays out of there. I can see why it could be scary in the situation you're describing, but it has been wonderful for us. I sleep better at night knowing Rowdy (yes, I named him after the dog on Scrubs) won't be running off.
I think you are mixing up the problem of aggressive, poorly-trained dogs with your distaste for invisible fences. I don't think the fences are any more inhumane than many other common means of controlling animals. The shock the dog feels is enough to deter but not intensely painful. (At least for a human--I know). The collar beeps to warn the dog when it approaches the fence, so a well-trained dog will rarely experience the shock. Yes, there is a risk that the battery will fail or the dog will be excited enough to charge through the boundary. That where breeding, training and the watchful eye of the owner come in.
And I'm not sure I would recommend carrying "milk bones" or other treats. The scent might attract the dogs you want to avoid.
#oldwhiteladyproblems
We used an invisible fence to reinforce our physical fence (which our dogs started to dig under.) With that setup, the boundary training was trivial. I doubt they got shocked more than a few times. Worked for years, long after we turned off the shock collars.
The Meadhouse objections are interesting. You seem to be saying that these dogs have been boundary trained, so they (theoretically) don't pose an actual threat, but since there is no visible fence (and they haven't been trained not to bark) they are frightening. Is the invisible fence really the issue? How much better would if be if the dog were on a chain or behind a fence? I kind of feel that people that keep threatening, viscous dogs in a small front yard are being assholes no matter how the dogs are restrained. (I used to live in the neighborhood where you live, and if I remember correctly, a 10 foot setback means the back yard - probably a good idea.)
Jeez ,c'mon people, try to understand the "invisible fence" per the manufacturers of same. The concept/idea is the canine owner utilizing this to train the dog to avoid the "fence". I really loathe ignorant dog owners.
I actually purchased one and never used for the same reason I never used a shock collar.
However, I did use a hot wire system to help contain NatGeo exploration shelter dog. Took over 8 years of trial & error to accomplish.
She's now 13!
Where's the trigger warning for electric shock? I'm having a relapse...
"...did not even have a spear to keep off the dogs."
Somewhere in a translation of the Odessey. That line has stuck with me over the years because I've often wished for a spear for that purpose.
Is there a 'stand your ground' law re aggressive dogs? Not that it matters to me, in the event.
rhhardin,
You left out an additional perverse side effect--deer!
I'm now back living in the same area I grew in, and back then you rarely saw any deer, even though the area was much more forested then than now.
Today? The darned rats-on-stilts destroy everyone's plantings, and as of yet we haven't gotten smart like Cedar Rapids and created an urban bow-hunting season with as many doe tags as you can fill.
I love it when AA gets all upset and bossy. She writes in a hysteria, responds multiple times to comments, admonishes readers/commenters for missing the point or not thinking clearly or deeply, threatens and insults everyone who displeases her, and finishes with an ultimatum or a verbal kick in the teeth. Usually it's because something a republican or non-democrat party white person said or did, this time it's because a dog barked at her. #WarOnWomen #BadDog!
As a matter of course, AA tries to deflect the source of her fury, and insist that she's righteously angry over invisible fences and/or the dog owners who use them. But no, she wouldn't have thought twice about invisible fencing if the dog didn't scare her. Poor perfesser got scared and now she's on a crusade to rid the world of invisible fencing, and the evil people who employ it. LMAO! Love the way she handles this "problem" too- 1)Write a blog post 2) Call the Cops! LOL! Can't wait for the cops to euthanize the dog for barking at someone, and arrest the owners for allowing their dog to bark at someone from inside its yard space. Yeah, you're still a raving angry liberal, full of selfish indignation- Take a clue! And a chill pill...
Well, I don't know what to say, exactly.
On the one hand, I don't like electrifying[ied] control-fences.
On the same hand, our current canine family members are both rescue-pets (that is, they were abused dogs and we took them in knowing that they would have issues), and yet and still they are so-treasured beings on account of their personalities and sweetness, and their love of being loved.
On the other hand, I got attacked by a dog (a German Shepherd, as it happened) and dragged around a yard by my head when I was a very little girl. Many stitches and a couple-so plastic surgeries ensued before I got to elementary school, let's just put it like and leave it at that.
So I have mixed feelings about...well, pretty much all of the issues raised in this post.
: ) : (
Some people are empathic towards dogs, because people can be such assholes.
while your plight is understandable, but perhaps the same jerkish behavior you attribute to the dog owners, the dog owners may attribute to you as you continue to taunt their dog?
Maybe it's just the dog who is a jerk?
Labor Day, 3 1/2 years ago I made solid contact with a large black Lab on my 1968 Triumph motorcycle. The dog ran from the yard, then stopped directly in front of my front wheel. The last thing I remember was launching skyward before waking up a few minutes later, badly broken and bruised. The owner was not home.
An electric fence would have helped; an owner with a functioning brain would have been even better.
Yell, "NO"-
Like Robert Mitchum
Stops 'em dead in their tracks every time
Works for me!
"So far." says David.
Well, David, if the authority of Robert Mitchum's voice fails to do the job there is always...
PLAN B
Dog keeps coming on, barking, like a banshee, bearing teeth.
Yell like Christopher Walken.
"MOTHER FU**ER", stun gun at the ready.
Use gun, repeatedly if necessary, until the threat is neutralized.
Find owner.
Tell him he's a "MOTHER FU**ER" for letting a hostile dog run free.
Inform owner where he can find his dog (in a Robert Mitchum voice, looking him dead in the eyes).
Leave him with these words of a wise veterinarian I know.
"If you love your dog, keep him tied up."
"I think you are mixing up the problem of aggressive, poorly-trained dogs with your distaste for invisible fences. I don't think the fences are any more inhumane than many other common means of controlling animals. The shock the dog feels is enough to deter but not intensely painful."
You're assuming my primary problem is that the dog is hurt. Why would you read the post that way?
My primary problem is that things are set up to scare passersby, the owners know it, and I know my neighbors have this callousness toward the comfort of other people. I also know that they don't mind displaying what other people may interpret as cruelty to the animal.
I'm assuming the shock doesn't hurt much, just enough to manipulate the dog's mind. I'm not that opinionated on the topic of using negative enforcement to control a being that you need to control. I suspect positive reinforcement is the better approach.
In short: I'm talking about human relations.
"#oldwhiteladyproblems"
If you live in a neighborhood full of old white ladies and you show disrespect for their comfort walking past your house, you are a jerk. If you stay inside your house observing the problem, you are an invisible jerk. If, when confronted with your poor conduct, you say "#oldwhiteladyproblems" you are confirming that you are indeed a jerk.
That is the point of this post: "Invisible fence = invisible jerks."
It's quite possible that the jerks in question ARE old white ladies. I don't know.
Send Meade out with milkbones.
A bike commute has regular bike-chasing dogs. These are worth training.
The milk-bone goal is to get each of these to run to the end of their driveway and sit when you stop.
Then you not only have a non-bike-chaser, but a friend on your commute.
The parallel would be to get your walk dogs to dash out and wait for the milkbone.
Takes a few days.
Handwringers, hysterics and busybodies are a subclass of old white ladies.
Used to be In Vermont, any dog on the loose will most likely be shot.
Anyone could legally shoot the dog, then they changed the law so only wardens or cops could shoot. Didn't change much.
City folk moving to the country thinking Rover could roam free to chase deer usually learned to fence or restrain roaming Rover's replacement.
A charging dog + elderly or disabled person + fall to pavement from startle = big lawsuit, possible death from head injury.
Dogs belong in the back yard.
"On the same hand, our current canine family members are both rescue-pets (that is, they were abused dogs and we took them in knowing that they would have issues), and yet and still they are so-treasured beings on account of their personalities and sweetness, and their love of being loved."
Here's my question: Given that perfectly healthy, friendly dogs are euthanized in great numbers, why would you bring a dog with "issues" into your home? What is this charitable self-conception about? I wonder what is really going on in the dog "rescue" game, because it just doesn't make sense in view of the numbers of dogs the Humane Society is continually putting down.
Is it that there are some beautiful looking dog breeds that are available? Is this a relabeling of the puppy mill problem?
"while your plight is understandable, but perhaps the same jerkish behavior you attribute to the dog owners, the dog owners may attribute to you as you continue to taunt their dog?"
Is the dog reading my blog?
Oh, you mean, I'm "taunting" the dog owners.
Some portion of human beings who indulge themselves in the activity of dog ownership are not doing what they need to do to protect other human beings from the side effects of that self-indulgence.
I don't know which dog owners are in that set of dog owners when I see a dog, and I would think that all dog owners would care about the image of dog ownership. If they don't care, the set of jerks is larger than just the dog owners who fail to train and control their dogs.
It's amazing, the vanity that arises from the self-indulgence of keeping a pet. That you love your own pet does not make you a loving person. Without more, it is self-indulgence.
I have to admit that your tears of terror taste like wine, box wine; but when you write the following:
Here's my question: Given that perfectly healthy, friendly dogs are euthanized in great numbers, why would you bring a dog with "issues" into your home? What is this charitable self-conception about? I wonder what is really going on in the dog "rescue" game, because it just doesn't make sense in view of the numbers of dogs the Humane Society is continually putting down.
So which fine problem-free animal are you rescuing from a pawful death? Step up and show game.
BTW when that dog dies of poisoned bait, are you going to artfully confess without confessing to us, or just keep your mouth shut?
Dogs are interesting. It's not about feelings.
Try Vicki Hearne, _Adam's Task_.
My neighbors on both sides have invisible fences. Both dogs seem to be good with children but both are large. What Michael K and Amy wrote upthread is perfectly true. I've witnessed one of them charge right through the "fence" chasing a chipmunk, then whimper as it tried to return to its yard.
As to the special responsibilities of people who take in rescue dogs, I think this interview with dog author Jon Katz and this Slate article are worth reading.
@stlcdr, dogs are animals. They do what they are trained to do, and without proper training, they do what their instincts tell them to do.
Back in the day I liked to go jogging, and anything that appears to be running away brings out the aggressor in a poorly-trained dog. I solved the problem of the large, aggressive German shepherd in one yard by replacing hamburger with cheap cuts of meat that had bones in, and tossed the bones to the dog. After about a half dozen times it would trot up with tail wagging instead of running up with loud barking, and after that we were friends. Sort of.
I will not write a letter to these people. I might call the police.
And THAT is exactly why people on your street think you're a bad neighbor.
""Invisible fence = invisible jerks."
Anyway, if I am being a jerk about invisible fences, at least I am visible about it."
The problem with the invisible fence is that the passer-by doesn't know it's there. The property owner can smugly assume the passer-by is not at risk, but the poor passer-by does not know this, thus the fear. And even if there's a sign, you can not turn that reaction off.
A cop would shoot the dog in a heartbeat. Rick Perry would empty his clip into the dog by the time it was halfway to the invisible fence.
Let me elaborate on the shoot the dog idea, because people will say "it isn't the dog's fault". If you have a legal rule "It is okay to shoot a dog running at an invisible fence", it will take very few dead dogs, if any, for owners to take action. Coase Theorem.
I was sleeping in the Colorado River Canyon north of Moab. Long time ago, not all that long after RW's brother was found face down near the (then) dirt road - UtAH 128 had yet to be paved - with a .44 hole back to front. Never solved. So in the night a VW Van pulled in next to me. Early the following morning they let Fang and Jugular loose, and tthe dogs roared out of the van and charged me as I lay in my mummy bag. But dogs have pretty good inastinctual apprehension. Just at my feet, as I sat up in the bag, they stopped, sensing something ominous, something about to go very wrong, Teeth still bared, still growling venomously, but stopped. I could hear the owners laughing at my plight and encouraging the dogs. Get him! Go give him a big kiss! Dog toy, Fang! Dog toy. Very carefully I unzipped the bag, revealing the .45 trained on the forehead of the lead dog. Then i could hear the owners, who were indignant. Nervous, too. But mostly indignant. Clearly setting your dogs on someone as nearly completely helpless as a person can be - you try defending yourself against anything or anybody from inside a mummy bag - was just good sport, very funny. And there I was, unable to take the joke.
I noted with interest the construction in Beowulf: "through my hand was the monaster slain." People growing up with an ablative or instrumental case are in a world with less direct notions of causation than are encouraged by a 19th century American legal system. The concept of the deodand obtained for centuries; largely doesn't now. (But see the form in which Asset Forfeitures are filed). The people in that Van should have been shot instants before ther dogs. But their dogs were as Beowulf's hand, and the paining message of my .45 locked on the brains of their dogs was as close to an ackowledgement of causation as we are allowed these days. I can't shoot you, though from a social peraspective I should, but I can cause you the sorrow and regret of losing your dogs. Lot of resentful people out there who do the passive, and have the savage dogs to do their aggressive for them.
"Everyone says his dog is nice and loves children. Everyone. The dog could be snarling at the children, and the person would still say that. The person has no awareness whatsoever that he (nearly always she actually) and the dog are total strangers to the people they're bothering, and that the people have no way of knowing the temperament of the animal."
This. I walked to work for over 20 years and the only sour note over all this time were the dogs. (I even loved the winter weather). When I would talk to the owners of the charging dogs, it was always the same: "Oh, Fluffy would never hurt anyone". Well, that may or may not be true, but "I don't know Fluffy, Lady."
Are you so conscious of your own image, then? People don't always manage their images, as you seem to imagine. They just live their lives.
I don't deny these people may be jerks. The notion that if some folks don't run around with their anuses clenched, polishing their image and worrying about that of their peers, maybe someone like you will conspire to take away their dog-having rights because you got barked at one time, makes them utterly sympathetic in comparison to you.
The best part as usual is when you admit-brag, declaim-your total ignorance of how things are managed, then declare comprehensive global mandates to solve your personal problem. Why do you think that is respectable? Why does it invoke no humility in you? Why does nothing invoke any humility in you?
"Poor people in my experience have mean dogs and know it. Rich people have mean dogs and refuse to believe it. There were thousands of dogs in those days, too, inhabiting every property—big dogs, grumpy dogs, stupid dogs, tiny nippy irritating little dogs that you positively ached to turn into a kind of living Hacky Sack, dogs that wanted to smell you, dogs that wanted to sit on you, dogs that barked at everything that moved. And then there was Dewey. Dewey was a black Labrador, owned by a family on Terrace Drive called the Haldemans. Dewey was about the size of a black bear and hated me. With any other human being he was just a big slobbery bundle of softness. But Dewey wanted me dead for reasons he declined to make clear and I don’t believe actually knew himself. He just took against me. The Haldemans laughingly dismissed the idea that Dewey had a mean streak and serenely ignored any suggestions that he ought to be kept tied up, as the law actually demanded. They were Republicans—Nixon Republicans—and so didn’t subscribe to the notion that laws are supposed to apply to all people equally."
Bryson, Bill (2006-10-17). The Life and Times of the Thunderbolt Kid: A Memoir (pp. 160-161). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
Read Thurber, "The Dog Who Bit People"
A hero dog story gone slightly wrong.
I was once confronted by a pack of dogs in Spain, led by a snarling mutt who kept pushing toward me.
Luckily, I had the presence of mind to cock my fist and punch that dog right in the snout, sending him away yelping and whimpering.
The other dogs left me alone after that.
Tom, don't worry, Althouse carries a pistol and if she were deeply frightened, i.e. past reflexively soiling herself (which ship has obviously sailed), would execute the yucky thing. She will not, however, complain, except to us and the cops and everybody but the problem people.
Althouse, short of dog murder, you could carry pepper spray, or IIRC from a Stephen King novel, a spray gun loaded with ammonia. (Have the real gun in your other hand when you try that one, in case Steve is wrong. I think in The Dead Zone, Greg Stillson ultimately had to beat it to death.)
Glad I previewed...Bryson sounds like a titanic asshole and Dewey no doubt was correct in recognizing evil. Hmm, maybe this dog should be a lesson to you, professor. Be a better person. Maybe if you change your life, the dog will change his. Poor Woofy knows you would squash him like a bug. Why shouldn't he protest? He can't write a brief, he lacks opposable thumbs. This is all he has.
You revel in the other smirky little bottle blonde, the one who actually marked her own flesh with your core credo about tenderness. Honi soit qui mal y pense. You got it coming, kid. But then, we all got it coming.
Given you and the dog, opposed by your wish, why should anyone not prefer the dog? A hundred and fifty years ago it would've been a Negro who frightened you and you would have wanted him shackled or muzzled or destroyed.
Maybe a face full of pepper spray would keep the dog from charging you in the future.
"You're assuming my primary problem is that the dog is hurt." No, I don't think I'm assuming that. I'm reacting to remarks like "[w]hy are you attempting to control your dog with electric shocks?," which seem to condemn the very idea of an electric fence. I share your objections to people who let obnoxious and possible dangerous dogs loose in the front yard with only an invisible fence to restrain them. We have neighbors like that. Their two little dogs bark like crazy whenever another dog comes within 50 yards, a problem for anyone walking a well-behaved and leashed dog past their house. They are very nice people--I would never call them jerks--they just have a blind spot when it comes to their adorable little pooches.
Is this post anti-Jamaican?
You know, they like their jerk there.
Different theories regarding the etymology, one is jerk meant to stab or poke the meat before and while cooking.
Dog People are all insane. The cops will tell you they don't do dogs, call the Animal Control. The Animal Control will turn out to be Dog People, and their only concern will be whether the useless mutt is suffering. If you want results, threaten to sue.
Read the post but not all the comments.
I love my electric fence. So do all the neighbors and passersby too apparently because they don't complain to me or call the cops about my three medium-sized dogs running around in the yard any more.
A few stiff shocks trained them about attempting that misguided idea. Sorry if this state of affairs spoils your walks folks, but you'd like it way less getting chased, harassed, or bit. My POA doesn't allow any kind of fence that would effective contain the dogs, so there's that too. So given that your peace and person aren't threatened by humane, unobtrusive and esthetically neutral containment measures like electric fences you all should kindly MYOB and STHU.
Here are some quotes from Big Mike's Slate link above;
1 - "Jan bypassed calmer and easier shelter dogs and brought Spice home, trained her conscientiously and consistently, loved and pampered her"
2 - "...while they were walking in a park ... Spice bit both the woman, who required 30 stitches in her arm, and the child, who after surgery still had small but permanent facial scars and most likely some psychological ones."
3 - "Jan was right to insist that the incident wasn't Spice's fault. Nor can we blame Jan ... "
Like I said, Dog People are insane.
@Jupiter, not all of them. I've never seen a dog walked in or around our neighborhood that is not on a leash. My neighbors' electronic fences are a rational response to a homeowners association taken over by very strange and hyper-controlling people who are anti fenced-in yards. On the other hand our association posts dispensers for doggie doo-doo plastic bags so I hardly ever see dog turds on or around the sidewalks or bike paths.
So they're not all bad and certainly not all crazy.
@KenK, the problem comes when the dogs come charging at people walking on the sidewalks or along the roadside, barking wildly, and there is no sign of an electronic fence. If your dogs do that, then you need to train them better.
One time a woman with a dog on a leash walked by at the park, and her dog stole my son's food out of his hand. The woman did not apologize. She laughed. Yeah, real funny, lady.
Irrational Dog People are one of the big reasons we don't have a dog.
Jupiter unless you are a degreed and licensed professional in the behavioral sciences please stop with the blanket ad hominem on whole class of people. It diminishes the comments more than the house approved crackpots already do.
Carry a stun gun. Sounds scary but it's just a 9 volt battery with a pair of posts. Press the button and an arc of electricity appears between the posts for as long as you hold it. It also makes a zzzztt noise, and the sound of it with the sight of the arc stops dogs dead in their tracks, as soon as they see/hear it. I was targeted by two huge loose pitbulls one time. They saw me across the street and bolted for me. I whipped out the "Black Cat" by Cobra, and just held that little arc crackling out in front of me, and they stopped coming instantly! From across the street it works! I used to carry pepper spray, then a knife, but the Black Cat is the way to go. The dog stays away from it. Worked once on a pack of coyotes too. An animal sees that bolt and hears it snapping, and they don't approach.
I run almost every day past a house with such a fence and such a charging growling dog. I never get used to it. I hate it.
So I sometimes take a different route. And on that route I went through the park and there was a guy throwing a tennis ball for his golden retriever. And the next thing I know the goldent retreiver crashes into me, nearly knocking me over in his dash to get the ball thrown by the nice dog owner who apparently did not consider the ball, the dog and I would or could intersect.. The nice thing about having grown old and remaining fearless is that I sometimes take a chance at getting my ass beaten and this time I did. I got so close to the nice dog man's face that he could feel my breath and my fury. You would be amazed at th fear that fslls on the face of a man confronted by a old man screaming at him, a crazy old man hoping for enough push back for an excuse.
I think I was like an electric fence to that asshole. I think he will always watch where he throws the ball for his nice dog.
I have owned a lot of dogs. They are not human. They do not speak English. They are animals. Many people do not think they are cute. Many people do not want them lunging at them.
I run almost every day past a house with such a fence and such a charging growling dog. I never get used to it. I hate it.
So I sometimes take a different route. And on that route I went through the park and there was a guy throwing a tennis ball for his golden retriever. And the next thing I know the goldent retreiver crashes into me, nearly knocking me over in his dash to get the ball thrown by the nice dog owner who apparently did not consider the ball, the dog and I would or could intersect.. The nice thing about having grown old and remaining fearless is that I sometimes take a chance at getting my ass beaten and this time I did. I got so close to the nice dog man's face that he could feel my breath and my fury. You would be amazed at th fear that fslls on the face of a man confronted by a old man screaming at him, a crazy old man hoping for enough push back for an excuse.
I think I was like an electric fence to that asshole. I think he will always watch where he throws the ball for his nice dog.
I have owned a lot of dogs. They are not human. They do not speak English. They are animals. Many people do not think they are cute. Many people do not want them lunging at them.
The comments on "invisible fence = invisible jerk" have been so amusing. Starting with AA a lot of the commentators are concerned with harm and punishment. How many commentators have used or known of someone who has been seen by a chiropractor or physical therapist and used a TENS unit?
Now go do some "google-fu" on patient damage from a TENS unit.
Meanwhile I will be in the corner relaxing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DBYjZTdrJlA
I want tips on how to train the human beings not to be jerks.
Yeah, well...good luck with that.
In short: I'm talking about human relations.
Says the lady who won't talk to her neighbor.
Althouse, I've a neighbor who calls the authorities before she calls us with a problem. For the record, I'm not sure I'd do anything but bring out the popcorn if her house was on fire.
First time I met her when a I saw a cop with one of those big loops to control animals opening the fence to our backyard. Our Chow was in our fenced in back yard going nuts at a stranger coming onto our space. Apparently a stray cat was high in a tree in our yard and the barking was disturbing her. Her house is at least 100 yards away BTW. Did she call to ask us to help solve the problem? No.
Just saying, in my world view, she is the jerk.
We tried an invisible fence once. The lab ignored it. The pekinese went into convulsions but crossed the fence anyway. We also found that the coax cable for the cable TV would activate the shock collar as well. The pekinese learned to stay away from the TV.
Simon Kenton @ 9:38 AM,
Wow, that's almost poetic in its explanation of what should have been, and the sad reality of what political/social reality is these days.
KenK,
"My POA doesn't allow any kind of fence that would effective contain the dogs,"
So you live in Stalinville instead of the Land of the Free? Sucks to be you. (Either that or put the dogs in the back yard.)
I got so close to the nice dog man's face that he could feel my breath and my fury
Great job. He probably felt terrible for accidentally knocking you down, but you fixed that in a hurry.
I'm glad to see you were concerned about causing guilty feelings in your fellow man and quickly acted to banish any such feelings.
Did he? Did he really? Were you there, Panty, seeing the look on his fool's face? I'd like to dissect you, you mantywaist, to see what passes in your skull for brains.
So that's how you think? Oh, my dog hurt that guy, but now the guy is mad so it's ok. It wouldn't bring home to you the consequences of your foolish actions, it would insulate you? What if the guy actually hurt you, hurt your dog? Then you'd feel better about what you had done? Would you tell him so?
You are like a male or gender neutral analogy to slut-shaming. Sure, go dress in rape-bait and drink your face off and back that azz up on the worst human garbage you can find. Then wake up with some new biology inside you and call for the WAAHmbulance! You? You had nothing to do with it! You were just standing there! Why would that guy pass up Laura Ingalls and pick you in your seven inch skirt and your eight inch heels?
I know that trying to think makes your brain hurt, so don't bother. Just know that when in doubt, you are in the wrong and should apologize whether the other fellow laughs off his injuries or not.
Some portion of human beings who indulge themselves in the activity of dog ownership are not doing what they need to do to protect other human beings from the side effects of that self-indulgence.
This is true, but it does, would not, and never has applied to us, Ann. Not to me, nor to my husband.
You selectively lift pieces of a comment of mine to challenge others to embrace a notion of yours.
However that works out, it still has naught to do with and nothing to say about our dogs, who threaten no one (and nor does our yard or how it's set up, any more than any of our yards, ever, have been set up over the years).
WTH?
Ann, you are obsessed with people who think they are the "good people," and, more specifically and to point, the people whom you passionately categorize as thinking of themselves in that way, whether or not that applies.
Everything a hammer can pound is not a nail, Ann.
I don't actually think of myself as "one of the good people." I am a faulty person, and from the day I first posted on your blog (and in emails before I first posted on your blog) I acknowledged that I am a person of faults.
I have actually done a good job in discerning the difference between (literal) dogs (as in canines) who are vicious and those who are worth a second chance and don't truly pose a harm to the general population. We don't need to, and haven't needed to, put up electric fences.
--
I will give you this: Yes, it true that at some point in my life it did become very important that I deal with my fear of dogs, so much so that I did, in fact, do so.
But never in ways that put anyone else in dog-danger [or even in -fear].
And I will give you a second "this":
Yes, I am sensitive--overly sensitive, even--when I see cheapened versions of both my being seriously mauled by a dog as a toddler, with lasting consequences, and my working to get over that as an adult, with discernment.
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