Are you surprised to learn that I do not approve of this?
Those who visit veterans monuments — even if they too are vets — ought to show respect for the monument, not perform political theater, especially when it's about another topic entirely (like the budget or healthcare policy). An antiwar protest at a veterans monument would make more sense, but even then, it should honor those who have served.
Quite aside from respect for war monuments, I don't accept protesters screwing with government property. These barricades are not theirs to move around for the purpose of making statements. Use your own signs, your own words and gestures if you've got something to say.
Obviously, these people think they're pretty cute, and they're getting egged on by anti-Obama media (like Breitbart and Instapundit). But all protesters who actually care about their objectives need to think really hard about how their hijinks look to people who are not already on their side. I saw the same problem with the Wisconsin protesters in 2011. They were so inside their own enterprise that they couldn't perceive how it would look to those standing away at some distance.
I'm on neither side in the current shutdown. I'm sick of all of them. That's the distance from which I am observing this. And I do not like the moving of the barricades.
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«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 297 of 297Dr. Weevil is an illuminating source by which we can learn the prevailing self-justifying Republican dogmas of the day.
I am Ann
I am Ann
Ann I am
That Ann-I-am
That Ann-I-am!
I do not like
that Ann-I-am
Do you like the moving of
the barricades?
I do not like it,
Ann-I-am.
I do not like
the moving of the barricades.
Would you like them moved
Here or there?
I would not like them moved here or there.
I would not like them
moved anywhere.
I do not like the moving of
the barricades.
I do not like it,
Ann-I-am
But all protesters who actually care about their objectives need to think really hard about how their hijinks look to people who are not already on their side.
Unusual nonsense from you.
The purpose of protest is not to convince those who disagree with you of the rightness of your cause. It is to rally those who agree with you to join the fight.
You are correct that the Madison shenanigans disgusted me, but had they shown up in business attire and politely assembled in front of the capital to air their grievances [as tens of thousands of tea-partiers have done in the past couple years], it would have done nothing to change my mind about their beliefs.
It can't be the protests, per se, that bother you. Perhaps you're not as neutral on the issue as you think.
I think government officials deliberately barricading monuments shows disrespect to the monuments not to mention contempt toward those whom they are supposed to serve.
The government is playing a dangerous game here. Respect for the law is contingent on the idea that laws are both reasonable and fairly applied. If it becomes apparent that's not the case, civil disobdience is to be expected.
Europe has it far worse. I was once in Rome when W. paid a visit to the Vatican. This visit so enraged the university students that they went on a rampaging march through some of the older parts of the city, defacing and destroying both public and private property on their way. The response of the police, such as it was, was simply to block the perimeter to keep people away from the march.
Today's protest is something much different from that. Simply moving barriers without destroying them seems like a fairly benign act of civil disobedience, and in this case the act was to restore access that arguably shouldn't have been cut off in the first place.
GOP, let the hostages go!
Look at all the liberals sticking up for Obamas jackbooted photo-op that is little more than a Potemkin Shutdown.
And the casual insinuation that the vets are protesting because they are racists made by somefeller and Inga...well I guess it must be nice to have a simple mind, untroubled by the complications of the adult world.
As expected, Robert Crook didn't have the grace or honesty to admit that he said something false, and tried to divert things with an ignorant insult. Here's another falsehood in his previous comment: when he mention "those in the country who need healthcare but who have not heretofore been able to acquire it" he pretended that lacking insurance is the same as lacking healthcare. It is not. My housemate had no health insurance for most of the last ten years, but had $27,000 worth of dental work done at the local free clinic. All she had to do was prove that she couldn't afford to pay for her desperately needed dental work and they did it for free. She could have done the same with medical bills if the need had arisen. I could have blown off $2,400 in medical debts last year (deductable on a $12,000 bill) but paid it anyway, because I could. According to the formula, anyone making under $37,000 / year - a lot of money in my area - is eligible for a partial or total cancelation of medical debt. The fact is that the U.S. already provides massive amounts of free medical care to the uninsured and the low-income, and will likely be providing far less under Obamacare.
The closures to the public frosted me. It shows Obama is a nasty Leftist that delights in singling out, humiliating and punishing groups he sees as ENEMY.
But then it got worse when he opens the Mall to what he thought was a Pelosi-led rally by up to 100,000 illegal aliens and their supporters because protestors have more rights to access than Vets or ordinary US citizen visitors.
In this, he has shown indifference and compempt of much of the US public and all people's complaints have been smirked off.
Given that itransigience and clear targeting and humiliation of his enemies, the liberals and progressive Jews of the media still acting as his adorning lapdogs.....yes, pushback is in order.
And the last thing we need after weeks of Obama, head Dems, and media lapdogs smearing and demonizing parkgoers, Republicans, Vets as intolerant, unpatriotic America-destroyers....is some new BS about how sad Back Messiah is with the opposition suddenly losing their civility.
Somefeller's concern over a not going to happen default is so touching. Why if Obama were crazy and stupid enough to default when there is no cash flow reason to do so the government would shoot itself in the head since the interest rate the market would require would be unsustainable and that would kill most of the social spending. Besides that Barry wouldn't be getting big speaking fees and cushy boarsd of directors gigs after her leaves office. In terms of probabity the Martians would land on the White House lawn before Barry and Jack Lew willfully default. This is just very poor political theater on Zero's part that we are forced to endure. He needs better script writers.
"As expected, Robert Crook didn't have the grace or honesty to admit that he said something false, and tried to divert things with an ignorant insult."
You haven't demonstrated that I said something false.
"Here's another falsehood in his previous comment: when he mention 'those in the country who need healthcare but who have not heretofore been able to acquire it' he pretended that lacking insurance is the same as lacking healthcare. It is not."
This depends on how one defines having access to healthcare. Having to resort to emergency care--the least cost-effective as it must address illness that has already manifested, rather than preventing it altogether, the point of preventative care--is not what most consider to be "access to medical care." Also, those who obtain care in emergency rooms are billed for that care. If they can't pay it, we do.
"My housemate had no health insurance for most of the last ten years, but had $27,000 worth of dental work done at the local free clinic. All she had to do was prove that she couldn't afford to pay for her desperately needed dental work and they did it for free. She could have done the same with medical bills if the need had arisen. I could have blown off $2,400 in medical debts last year (deductable on a $12,000 bill) but paid it anyway, because I could. According to the formula, anyone making under $37,000 / year - a lot of money in my area - is eligible for a partial or total cancelation of medical debt. The fact is that the U.S. already provides massive amounts of free medical care to the uninsured and the low-income, and will likely be providing far less under Obamacare."
A point: not every place in this country has a "free clinic."
To the degree medical care is accessible to those who can't afford to buy health insurance--or who aren't fortunate to have it as a part of their employment compensation--this is a good thing. If, under Obamneycare, "free" healthcare will be even less available than presently, this just one more reason to condemn the ACA as sellout to the interests of the health insurance industry. I doubt, however, this is a concern of the Republicans who have shut down government in order to block Obamneycare, and have not heard any of them warn that it will hurt the poor and uninsured and impede their access to free care.
In any case, anecdotal accounts do not provide a picture of what is true everywhere, and many people still do not seek necessary care because they can't afford it and can't get it freely provided to them. Unpayable medical debt is the greatest cause of personal bankruptcies each year in this country. Illnesses that go untreated for want of access to medical care cause untold unnecessary suffering and deaths. Your (commonplace conservative) assurance that everyone can be treated for the ailments that befall them is either ignorance, a pretense, a lie, or a delusion on your part. I'm in no position to say which of these it may be.
No, I'm not surprised. You're a law professor and well off. A member of the American aristocracy. You want everyone to just get along and confine their conflicts to heated (but courteous) speech. The idea of individual lives becoming so unbearable that they are driven to civil disorder, or even violence, is frightening, as it is to all of us in the gated upper communities of the status quo. We know very well come the revolution we are going to be explaining ourselves to the neighborhood committee on public safety.
But you would be better off just saying that, and not adducing transparently specious reasoning about the disagreeable tone of the protests (If only the peasant would bathe before they marched in the streets...!), or interpreting their motives condescendingly. (I doubt very much they think they're indulging in mere political theater, I think they think they're making a very serious statement about very serious issues.) Still worse is the hairsplitting about it being the property of the public instead of a public place. That's frankly insulting. If the government needs to defend "public places" against the public, it has lost any semblance of legitimacy. (You would have something of a case if these protests were deeply unpopular in the broader electorate, cf. the Klan marching, but of course it's the reverse that's the case here.)
At this point in conversations like these, clowns and gargoyles come out. Some of them are self-centered.
Robert Cook: ObamCare may look like a "sellout" to the insurance companies but it's actually designed to bankrupt them or drive them out of the current form of health care payment scheme. The real goal is single payer but the problem with single payer is that there is no guarantee the payees will get onboard with it. And if they refuse then what? How do you force them to accept single payer which means single employer? You want doctors forming unions and striking for higher pay and a lower workload and more paid vacation days?
Machine you got it backwards. It's the Democrats who are holding us hostage.
House Republicans enacted a special rule that prevents anyone but the majority leader from introducing a bill to fund the government.
Hostage takers.
Methinks the Professor of Law wants respect for The Law.
And when the speed limit is 35 MPH, she drives not even 1/10th of an MPH faster....right?
It is unfortunate that we now deal with an Administration which--unlike Walker's--breaks the law on a regular basis. And this Administration breaks the BIG laws: IRS privacy, NSA spying, "delay" of ObozoCare, gun-running resulting in 100's of deaths....
GKC quipped that “When you break the big laws you do not get freedom. You do not even get anarchy. You get small laws.”
The small laws are the ones which are broken here, Professor.
Worry more about the Big Ones.
I am not in a position to say whether Robert Cook's "assurance that everyone can be treated for the ailments that befall them" through Obamacare "is either ignorance, a pretense, a lie, or a delusion on [his] part". I suspect it's just a lie. When he alleged that I haven't demonstrated that he wrote anything false, he lied: Obamacare was not in fact passed as a law in the normal way. When he treats the uninsured as if they were coextensive with those with no access to healthcare, he lies. Many, like my friend, fall into one group but not the other. If he were honest, he would try to find out how many people in America actually lack access to health care, not just health insurance. I am sure the number is not zero, and that the number could be reduced, but I know for a fact that the number is increasing as millions of Americans find that Obamacare is causing their insurance rates to double, triple, or quadruple. Either he hasn't heard that this is happening (unlikely) or he's in favor of it happening.
You'd think that machine might want to mention that the House Republicans have not just proposed but passed bills that fully fund government, and the Democrats in the Senate and the White House have refused to finish the job.
That would interfere with the narrative, what was the directive,
typical of closing the shores, sealing off the NIH cancer trials,
postponing death benefits, things of that nature,
You'd think that machine might want to mention that the House Republicans have not just proposed but passed bills that fully fund government, and the Democrats in the Senate and the White House have refused to finish the job.
Dr. Weevil: That's because the House Republicans insisted on changing two jots and tittles in Obama's "signature" legislation. No amendments, no compromise, no deal came the answer, like another Daley occurrence.
I did not insinuate any such thing SGT Ted. I did however wonder out loud just how many "veterans" were at the protest. I doubt any patriotic veteran would wave a Confederate flag in front of the White House, actually I really doubt that. Sounds more like run of the mill TPs. The same types who had signs with Obama with a bone through his nose.
Then again, the DHS and that WestPoint thinktank have identified the real enemy, not the like of Nidal Hassan, or Faisal Shahzad, but
pro lifers, Christians and veterans,
Inga, do you have pics or links to pics of those Confederate flags and bone-nosed Obamas at Tea Party gatherings?
Seems to be the Journolist talking point, from Joan 'Rorschach' Walsh on, yes one flag among many,
Inga writes: Sounds more like run of the mill TPs. The same types who had signs with Obama with a bone through his nose.
Just like those "typical" Obama supporters in back LA?: link
We could do distractions all night, Inga.
I read the comments a while back and have just come back to see what is going on. The WWII memorial is for all. A good many of those that visit are visiting to honor their parents or grandparents. A veteran of Iraq or Afghanistan could well have had parents that served during Vietnam, and Grandparents that served during WWII. To say they have not right to be there is just plain wrong.
To Tim ( I think) who said that Tea Party people don't have money in stocks is also just plain wrong. We do.
pics of TPs and their Confederate flags
Pics of Obama with a bone in his nose on TP signs
Or you could've done your own Google search.
@Inga: The "optics" gotcha games with photos are endless, especially when both sides pick isolated incidences by uncontrollable nobodies and project them upwards to the very top.
It would be more productive to speak instead about the logic and reasoning behind erecting such barriers in the first place. The stunt drew national attention. The President has much more important things to worry about at this time, but it's a no brainer that he could end this with a phone call.
Poor Inga can't be bothered to look at her own link. The last picture in the 3rd row when I looked was a burning Confederate Flag labeled 'Burn a Confederate Flag Day'. How many of the rest are actual Tea Party rallies with Confederate Flags present? Possibly none, certainly less than half: just look at them. How many are actual Tea Party rallies with Confederate Flags present, NOT being waved by leftie provocateurs? Inga can't say, because Inga doesn't have a clue as to what constitutes evidence. Quite possibly the number is zero.
When Zombie brings back evidence of offensive slogans at leftie rallies, he (she?) does a far better job of actually showing evidence.
C'mon, Inga. We need better than that. I am interested in real sources.
I did a generic google search, there are more than enough examples of TPers and the signs I spoke of. If you can't weed through the pics, that's YOUR problem.
Or you could've done your own Google search.
But Inga, research is hard! Plus, everyone knows that Google is run by a bunch of liberal elitists and is totally biased. Maybe Glenn Beck can start his own search engine, because freedom.
When you don't have an argument, deny, deny, deny. The pics speak for themselves.
Somefeller, such lazy bones here.
She thinks we don't know about Google bombs, and other algoritms,
you have to applaud her persistance though, Axelrod should give her a raise.
Ah yes, pictures "speak for themselves". If there were 100,000 people demonstrating today, and one of them (who may be unusually stupid for a Tea Partier, or a leftie agent provocateur, or an apolitical creep who just wants to get his picture in the paper) has his picture taken with a Confederate flag, and if pictures of that one man with one flag are reproduced on 1,000 different leftie sites, that's exactly as damning as if the demonstrators had 1,000 Confederate flags among them. Inga logic. She apparently hasn't heard that pictures lie all the time, and that lying with pictures has been a well-paid profession for well over a hundred years.
'Facts are stubborn things' this is why they are avoided at all costs;
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=vuVPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mgcEAAAAIBAJ&dq=government%20shutdown%20memorial&pg=6842%2C45386
Ok Dr.Weevil, sure, sure no TPers ever had such signs at rallies or protests. They were all the doings of agent provocateurs.
Chick is the most boring person I have ever read on the internets.
He documents every post from Althouse, is obsesssed with Andrew Sullivan, gays and Sarah Palin, and comments all day everyday on every posting....while supposedly working???? Or maybe not working, that could be the issue. He is a total freak and loser who has said horrible things about Althouse at other sites but still feels the need to be HEARD here, because he is like never heard. Even though is he very loud and proud.
And he does audio interpretations of Postings....constantly.
He is physically gross, so that may be the reason, but chick, please find a hobby. Perhaps your family? Or a walk? Or vist something? Or a roadtrip? Or something?
Chick, you are constantly disgusted while also being most disgusting.
Broaden your horizons old man. Life is too short. And stop being such a compulsive wimp.
Inga knows that that is not what I wrote, and knows that everyone else can see that that is not what I wrote: why does she lie?
Inga: I'm pretty sure that some Obama supporters still actually liked that Palin effigy thing. None of them ever spoke up about it to denounce it. Even prominent bloggers like Althouse let it slide without mention.
And here comes my stalker--Titus! The creep who gathers information about my kids.
And when her church was set ablaze, that may have garnered some attention, it's been nearly five years and the trail has gone cold.
Inga, I'm pretty sure Dr. Weevil is a liberal moby. No true-blue 'Murican conservative would use an effete Frenchie term like agent provocateurs. But Narciso knows what time it is when it comes to liberal algorithms. But like I said, maybe Glenn Beck will save the day and create a new search engine for a new era.
" Sounds more like run of the mill libs " FIFY.
Just like these libs " http://www.wnd.com/images/boston2.jpg ", or " http://www.wnd.com/images/boston4.jpg ", or " https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153786996480355&set=o.106988509331498&type=3&theater ". Typical lib "open minds" or facist hate. Wouldn't one of you dimwits tried passing yourselves off as something you're not.
Sorry, Ann, I completely disagree. These protests are the natural consequence of an arrogant government that is pissing all over at least half of the citizens of this country. Well, the citizens have had enough. Taking the barrycades to the #Spite House was an absolutely perfect move, civil disobedience at its finest.
Can you hear us NOW, Barack?
And I just want to add that, as I've said before, we threw out King George III for less...
Yes, he only taxed the tea, he didn't force us to buy it.
Who's House? Our House! Said the dirty hippy protestors in Wisconsin.
Some protesters are apparently more equal then others;
http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/justice-department-not-investigating-walker-death-threats-818cqau-186869422.html
Just as with Fast and Furious, or Benghazi, or the IRS,
That's how you can tell their (get it?) dirty hippy protesters, not Tea Partiers: they're (heh!) signs say "who's house?" where the Tea Partiers' signs would say "Whose house? Our house."
The aggrieved will be heard from.
Yeah! 'Cause TPers spell good!
If Inga cared about the truth at all, she could have found out in a matter of seconds that the third picture in her latest link ("Get a brain! morans") goes back to 2003 (link), and is therefore NOT a Tea Partier. Oops. How many of the others are in fact actual Tea Partiers? And how does the spelling of Tea Partiers compare to the spelling of lefties like Inga, as illustrated on this very thread? Inga doesn't know, and Inga doesn't care, because she'll believe anything that makes the other side look bad.
Somefellelr sez....
Government facilities are closed during a government shutdown and specifically, facilities patrolled by Park Rangers are closed when such Rangers are furloughed
Aware readers know that these memorials are rarely patrolled by Park Rangers and as open-air monuments are open to visitors 24X7. Its costing MORE money to 'close' them but that isn't the point is it? The point is President Pissed-Off wanted to inflict pain on Americans and blame it on Republicans.
....thinking and responsible people, both Democrats and Republicans, aren't amused by the prospect of default.
Low information Somefeller falls for Obama propaganda hook line and sinker, or more likely actively broadcasts it at the behest of his leaders.
The federal revenues are fully sufficient to pay current obligations for months. Obama wants to put more on the credit card, and he's threatening not to make minimum payments.
SS stormfueheren Inga mused.....I wonder how many there were actually veterans.
"Hey! Here's an idea, Democrats agree to get rid of Obamcare altogether and replace it with Medicare for All "
That'd work. For two or three years until Medicare fails.
Your usual brilliance, Inga.
"Also, those who obtain care in emergency rooms are billed for that care. If they can't pay it, we do. "
Can I send you the bills for the last 100 illegal aliens I operated on ? Please send me your address. It's a lot of money.
Thank you in advance.
Burp
How about la Couverture Maladie Universelle (made sure I spelled that right). Wasn't it you, Michael was praising the French healthcare system?
"Are you surprised to learn that I do not approve of this?"
No.
Neither does John McCain. Or Lindsey Graham. Or Barack Obama.
So, you've plenty of soul-mates to spend time with...enjoy!
Althouse is trolling Althouse.
"How about la Couverture Maladie Universelle (made sure I spelled that right). Wasn't it you, Michael was praising the French healthcare system?"
You might read this. http://abriefhistory.org/?p=400
Note the date. You might learn something.
In fact, read the series. Unlike you, I spent some time studying systems that might be models for reform.
Seriously? You are defending Barrycades? WTF? You bitched and whined about speech rights while your significant other shot photos of citizen dumbasses defacing your state capital a year ago and now....moving Barrycades offends you? Please....
The barricades show disrespect for the monument. Removing them restores it.
And no they're not government property. They're public property. You can argue about the distinction but in the mean time Obama is acting like a thug taking outrageous and unprecedented measures to mistreat the public.
"What a real Alinsky organizer seeks to create is a "radicalizing experience" among those he works with. But Obama by his intransigence and mockery has infuriated and radicalized his opposition. He has organized his enemy far more effectively than Boehner or McCain ever could."
Belmont Club
this veterans thing was a tame civil disobedience move compared to occupying the wisconsin state capital for days, occupying areas for days, pitching tents, with no end in sight (at least that was my impression) and causing inconvenience to everybody. but the media loved OWS, right?
The theater,Ann, was all on the side of the White House. Those men -and women- earned the right to be there. Any time they want.24/7/365. They paid for it.
The theater,Ann, was all on the side of the White House. Those men -and women- earned the right to be there. Any time they want.24/7/365. They paid for it.
Turning on comment moderation and Barrycading our monuments have a lot in common. Supporters gotta stick together.
"government property", just who do you think the government is? Did OUR tax dollars not pay for those barricades?
The monuments are open air so there are no gates or turnstiles to go through, you can visit at 3 in the morning if you want.
Veterans sent a big F-U to Obama for even attempting to close off these monuments.
And I applaud them.
But of course....baggers shut the government down then complain the government is shut down. Wah
This nation, and especially this President, could use a healthy dose of civil disobedience. Back in the day, we would have burned those barricades down.
It would be nice to see all of today's supposed "liberals" shown a bit of disrespect for their police state attitudes.
Your are wrong It was the correct thing to do .Free men do not obey tyrannical acts such as putting barrycades t oprevent people visting an open memorial.
Disappointed, Ann. Not surprised, however.
Ambrose said...
your shutdown didn't last very long.
That's because Althouse is, bottom line, phony and boring. Her commenters are far more interesting.
Could not disagree with you more.... This country and especially this President could use a healthy dose of civil disobedience.... Back in the day, we would have burned those barricades down and held a concert in front of the ashes. Everyone is way too complacent in the face of a government apparatus that takes advantage of its citizens...
"Those who visit veterans monuments — even if they too are vets — ought to show respect for the monument, not perform political theater..."
You can say that in spades for the bozos that had a hand in putting up the Barrycades in the first place.
"Those who visit veterans monuments — even if they too are vets — ought to show respect for the monument, not perform political theater..."
You can say that in spades for the bozos that had a hand in putting up the Barrycades in the first place.
Pardon the expression Ms Althouse but quit being such a p ***Y
The barricades are not a permanent feature of these monuments. They were put there for a political purpose having nothing to do with the purpose of the monuments.
The administration needs to be held accountable for its unnecessary petty political actions.
The Vets did not damage nor did they intend to damage the monuments. I don't remember if you objected to the action by illegal aliens on closed property. If people who aren't citizens can carry out political protests so can the people that were willing to put their lives on the line for tenured law professors living in freshly floored ivory colored mansions.
Moving barricades is a quality act of civil disobedience.
1) A tyrannical government policy was mocked effectively.
2) No one was hurt or threatened
3) No public or personal property was damaged
4) No unsafe conditions were created.
5) Supporters of the policy are reduced to casting ridiculous, blanket aspersions and questioning the authenticity of the participants as veterans.
Barry can't take a 99% yes for an answer. He had weepy & Co. caving in and instead pisses off the vets who are now giving weepy & friends a temporary spinal transplant. At least the vets stacked the Barrycades neatly which is more than can be said of the Panic In EBT Park shoppers who left a mess for the store staff to deal with. Too bad the vets can't do the taxpayers a favor in put those Barrycades in front of welfare offices.
The interesting thing about this rally is that there is practically no one in attendance.
Three years ago, the well-advertised presence of the Dear Leader and the Tea Party Queen would have produced a massive throng, but today, just a few hundred pathetic-looking stragglers.
It was the same story at Saturday's Great Big Glenn Beck Rally. In 2010-11, when Beck put out the call, tens of thousands responded. Today, no more than a few hundred true believers (including the paid Beck employees), and a few homeless people drawn to the rally by promises of a hot meal.
After the 2012 election, if anyone needed any more evidence that the Tea Party is dead, these two sleepy "rallies" featuring A-list TP royalty should be all the proof you need.
On the upside, I'm glad to see the renewed conservative interest in the public good provided by common spaces and parks.
The war memorial protests are so much different than the Wisconsin protests? Why? Because the Tea Party is protesting now! We're all principled and stuff like that.
Ok, I'll spell it right this time. :)
Whose House? Our House!
Ann.....you are an idiot in an ever growing Idiocracy. The barriers and the monument belong to all our veterans.
Dissent used to be patriotic...time for a new bumper sticker.
The political theatre of the monuments.
Act One: the installation of the Barrycades.
Act Two: the removal of the Barrycades.
Act Three: the re-installation.
Act Four: the re-removal.
Act Five (well, some odd number, eventually): the tragic end wherein 0 loses, never understanding his fatal flaw.
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