Althouse: Vote Republican or go to Hell.

August 22, 2012

Vote Republican or go to Hell.

129 comments:

Andy said...: American Christianity is so fucking dumb I never know what is real and what is satire being made to mock Christians for being idiots.; 8/22/12, 1:28 PM
Christopher in MA said...: Vote Republican or go to Hell.

Not necessarily. You could vote for Gary Johnson or Jill Stein. Just so long as enough votes are withheld from the obvious enemy of the Church currently occupying the Oval Office.; 8/22/12, 1:28 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Purgatory. You're purified by the fires of purgatory, and I guess the point is that those things at the end would survive it and not be burned away.; 8/22/12, 1:28 PM
Christopher in MA said...: American athiests are so fucking arrogant, I never know what is real and what is satire made to mock atheists for being assholes.

FIFY.

And as an American Christian, Hat, I offer you a hearty FOAD.; 8/22/12, 1:30 PM
Andy said...: OK, so this isn't a joke?; 8/22/12, 1:33 PM
Anonymous said...: Oh yeah, it's the economy, stupid! Sure. It's social issues with the right and has been all along, they are willing to dump the economy, it not their priority and that is exceedingly evident by now.

Those of you who believed the Republican Party was all about the economy, you've been duped. I can't wait to see them at their convention, announcing their platform.; 8/22/12, 1:38 PM
furious_a said...: "Hell"? Looked like a blacksmith's forge (except there'd be coals, not flames, but anwway) where steel is tested, tempered and shaped.

Didn't notice horns or cloven hooves on the blacksmith, but the woman emerging from the voting booth didn't look all that happy.; 8/22/12, 1:39 PM
pellehDin said...: This is ridiculous. Nobody believes in god anymore, and religion is basically a social concept. Belonging to a church is primarily for networking, because nobody takes religion seriously anymore. < /sarc>

If you believe in a G-d who assigned values, this is a powerful ad. If not, I could say "Go to Hell," but that would be meaningless.

Of course there are many Catholics who have redefined the Church in their own image. Pelosi comes to mind. A shame that the Vatican didn't copyright the word "Catholic"; this is the same as selling soda in Laphroig bottles and claiming it's as good as the original. Or worse, that it is the original.; 8/22/12, 1:40 PM
Christopher in MA said...: My eyes must be going. I could have sworn the end credits noted that this commercial was the product of Catholics Called to Witness, not The Republican National Committee.

But then, Allie is so much smarter than the rest of us, she knows that this one commercial was funded directly by Reince Priebus or perhaps those evil Koch brothers. It must be astroturf.; 8/22/12, 1:42 PM
Matt Sablan said...: Republicans are the ones who proposed a budget and have proposed plans for Medicare; Ryan has campaigned in Florida despite the belief he would be hated there; Romney routinely deals with hostile press and answers questions. Romney has elected a VP nominee who brings big ideas to the ticket.

Democrats are the one who have a candidate for President focused on a dog being put on the roof of a car more than a decade ago. Obama refuses to apologize for his VP implying Republicans want to enslave Virginians. Obama is fighting tooth and nail for the release of tax returns.

Please, tell us how Obama is the more serious candidate. Maybe he can pivot to the economy again. Or, perhaps, a HARD PIVOT.; 8/22/12, 1:42 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Those of you who believed the Republican Party was all about the economy, you've been duped.

Who believed that. I don't think anyone believed that.

Many people are voting for the Republican because of the economy. Many people think the election should be all about the economy and thus go to the Republican.

But I think it would be hard to find anyone who thinks that the actual Republican Party has no position on social issues.; 8/22/12, 1:43 PM
Anonymous said...: Uh, Ann, I didn't see any thing about voting R in that video. And as a practicing Catholic, I've never heard in my 59 years anything from any pulpit in any Catholic church what candidate or party to vote for.

So really, spare us.

BTW - there are numerous practicing Catholic libertarians. Andrew Napolitano, Mike Munger, Leonard, Liggio, etc., etc., etc.; 8/22/12, 1:43 PM
Tom Spaulding said...: There is only one message: Vote for Romney or vote for Obama.

If you are voting for Obama again, you are an idiot, and no doubt everyday life is already Hell for you.; 8/22/12, 1:43 PM
furious_a said...: I can't wait to see them at their convention, either.; 8/22/12, 1:44 PM
Anonymous said...: The "test of fire" is not hell, but a test of one's moral convictions.; 8/22/12, 1:46 PM
Brian Brown said...: Andy R. said...
American Christianity is so fucking dumb I never know what is real and what is satire being made to mock Christians for being idiots.

Andy R is so fucking dumb all of his comments can be taken as parody.; 8/22/12, 1:46 PM
garage mahal said...: BTW - there are numerous practicing Catholic libertarians. Andrew Napolitano, Mike Munger, Leonard, Liggio, etc., etc., etc.

And many practicing Catholic Democrats. I met some lovely Nuns a few months ago on their bus tour. So cute!; 8/22/12, 1:47 PM
Brian Brown said...: AllieOop said...
Oh yeah, it's the economy, stupid! Sure. It's social issues with the right and has been all along, they are willing to dump the economy, it not their priority and that is exceedingly evident by now.

That's right!

Neither Romney or Ryan said anything about the economy yesterday or today!

You have it all figured out!; 8/22/12, 1:48 PM
Unknown said...: Is that an ad for the great election of 1876? If so, it's a tad too late to help Green Clay Smith.; 8/22/12, 1:48 PM
Calypso Facto said...: I don't see "Republican" mentioned anywhere in the video. It simply says to vote for values that stand the test of time: marriage, life, and freedom. How telling and sad for Democrats that it's automatically assumed they have no lasting values regarding these issues.

*5th try to get through wv is hopefully the charm. What a pain.; 8/22/12, 1:50 PM
damikesc said...: And many practicing Catholic Democrats.

And Andrew Sullivan says he's REALLY a conservative.

Funny how people can delude themselves, ain't it?

Andy R is so fucking dumb all of his comments can be taken as parody.

Parody implies existence of wit. Meaningless gibberish describes hatboy better, IMO.; 8/22/12, 1:50 PM
Robert Cook said...: "...as an American Christian, Hat, I offer you a hearty FOAD."

With that comment, you reveal that you are not, in fact, a Christian, no matter what you may think.

(Unless "American Christian" denotes a sect that has schismed off the main body of Christian teachings and is, in fact, non-Christian in all but name.); 8/22/12, 1:51 PM
Robert Cook said...: Tom Spaulding: If you vote for either Romney or Obama you are, to use your term, an "idiot," (at least, if one assumes one's vote will result in a significant improvement in our present circumstances).; 8/22/12, 1:54 PM
Andy said...: With that comment, you reveal that you are not, in fact, a Christian, no matter what you may think.

Hmm, I wonder if that was exactly the point I was making. :); 8/22/12, 1:54 PM
Known Unknown said...: Oh yeah, it's the economy, stupid! Sure. It's social issues with the right and has been all along, they are willing to dump the economy, it not their priority and that is exceedingly evident by now.

This is just "red meat" for the other side.

Althouse can play her audience like a fiddle.; 8/22/12, 1:54 PM
Anonymous said...: This video may be bombastic but it is not shocking or foolish. Today's issues often have a moral dimension. The policies of the Obama administration run straight across many of the Church's teachings.

The video addresses Catholics. If one is Catholic and takes that faith seriously as the Church teaches it, arguably one must stand against Democrats in 2012.; 8/22/12, 1:55 PM
Anonymous said...: Looks like an overly long version of a Marine Corps recruiting commercial which has as its central image a smith tempering a sword.; 8/22/12, 1:56 PM
Andy said...: If one is Catholic and takes that faith seriously as the Church teaches it, arguably one must stand against Democrats in 2012.

You should ask the Pope what he thought about the Iraq War. Or the Bishops what they think about the Ryan budget.; 8/22/12, 1:57 PM
garage mahal said...: Funny how people can delude themselves, ain't it?

Yea, Bill Donohue probably really believes he's a good Catholic.; 8/22/12, 1:58 PM
Sydney said...: It simply says to vote for values that stand the test of time: marriage, life, and freedom. How telling and sad for Democrats that it's automatically assumed they have no lasting values regarding these issues.

When my son was about 12 or 13 we were behind a car with Democratic election bumper stickers on it and one of those Christian fishes. My son said, "I didn't know Democrats could be Christians." And that is something he picked up on his own, because we don't discuss politics at home.; 8/22/12, 1:58 PM
Shouting Thomas said...: I estimate that this post will draw in excess of 200 comments...

... and not a single vote will change as a result.; 8/22/12, 2:00 PM
Palladian said...: How many times are you people going to gobble up Andy R.'s sloppy seconds?; 8/22/12, 2:00 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "My eyes must be going. I could have sworn the end credits noted that this commercial was the product of Catholics Called to Witness, not The Republican National Committee."

Yeah, and who were you supposed to vote for? You have to be willfully blind -- speaking of your eyes -- not to see this as a requirement to vote against Obama.; 8/22/12, 2:00 PM
damikesc said...: Yeah, and who were you supposed to vote for? You have to be willfully blind -- speaking of your eyes -- not to see this as a requirement to vote against Obama.

True. But if you watch MSNBC, you can't fail to see that your requirement as a citizen is to vote for Obama.

Doesn't mean that Obama actually financially paid them to do it...well, except for Maddow and Olbermann.; 8/22/12, 2:03 PM
rhhardin said...: It would be better in Latin.; 8/22/12, 2:04 PM
damikesc said...: You should ask the Pope what he thought about the Iraq War. Or the Bishops what they think about the Ryan budget.

Dems voted for the war, including the VP.

As far as the Ryan budget, the Dems' passion for slaughtering babies far, far, far outweighs any attempts to misrepresent Catholic theology.; 8/22/12, 2:04 PM
furious_a said...: You have to be willfully blind -- speaking of your eyes..

...and one has to be willfully something-else to come up with "...or Go to Hell".; 8/22/12, 2:05 PM
test said...: garage mahal said...
And many practicing Catholic Democrats. I met some lovely Nuns a few months ago on their bus tour. So cute!

You forgot to switch over to your titus account before posting.; 8/22/12, 2:08 PM
edutcher said...: My sentiments exactly, but damn!, that's the Catholic Church I know, not that Vatican II Hippy-dippy, non-judgmental stuff.

Andy R. said...

OK, so this isn't a joke?

No, it's about principle. You wouldn't understand.

If one is Catholic and takes that faith seriously as the Church teaches it, arguably one must stand against Democrats in 2012.

You should ask the Pope what he thought about the Iraq War. Or the Bishops what they think about the Ryan budget.

Hey, genius, it's not '04 anymore and the Bishops haven't said anything.; 8/22/12, 2:08 PM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: Oh yeah, it's the economy, stupid! Sure. It's social issues with the right and has been all along, they are willing to dump the economy, it not their priority and that is exceedingly evident by now.

Those of you who believed the Republican Party was all about the economy, you've been duped. I can't wait to see them at their convention, announcing their platform.

Silly, you don't understand what you just watched at all, or you don't understand people who have a serious commitment to the tenets of their faith. This call to action at the ballot box is a direct response to the unprecedented attacks by this administration on the freedom of Catholics, and others, to practice the established teachings of their Church. It has nothing to do with any particular political party (if you hadn't noticed, Catholics are hardly known as stalwart Republicans) except to the extent that the power-mad Democrats picked a fight.; 8/22/12, 2:09 PM
Anonymous said...: "...Yeah, and who were you supposed to vote for? You have to be willfully blind -- speaking of your eyes -- not to see this as a requirement to vote against Obama."

A 'requirement'? Really?

Just as any other advertisement, there is no 'requirement' to vote a particular way. This isn't a Papal Bull.; 8/22/12, 2:09 PM
Anonymous said...: Andy R: Yes, I know that John Paul II opposed the Iraq War. However, that was not a matter of Catholic doctrine -- the Church allows for war under Just War Theory -- but a judgment call.

Likewise, the Ryan Budget.

Abortion and same-sex marriage are different. They are against Church doctrine under all circumstances.; 8/22/12, 2:12 PM
Andy said...: Catholic bishops say GOP budget proposal fails moral test; 8/22/12, 2:16 PM
Shouting Thomas said...: God, please make the next three months pass by quickly, and let this horrific braying of jackasses cease!

Lord, here my prayer!; 8/22/12, 2:24 PM
Anonymous said...: No Erika, Althouse is right, who do you think that ad was targeting, liberals? LMAO.; 8/22/12, 2:25 PM
Joaquin said...: "Yeah, and who were you supposed to vote for? You have to be willfully blind -- speaking of your eyes -- not to see this as a requirement to vote against Obama"

Exactly! The anti-values candidate!; 8/22/12, 2:26 PM
edutcher said...: The Conference of Catholic Bishops doesn't speak for every Catholic.; 8/22/12, 2:26 PM
Anonymous said...: Andy R: It apparently comes as news to you, but Catholics don't agree about everything -- including the Iraq War and US budgets -- and are not required to agree with everything. That's the way it goes. Catholics listen when the Pope or the Bishops speak, but they are not required to agree with those judgments.

However, abortion and same-sex marriage are different. Those are wrong according to Church teachings, period. Get it through your head.; 8/22/12, 2:28 PM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: Andy, I know you think you've got some big 'gotcha' there with your link, but your ignorance of the Church is showing. The USA Today reporter probably knows jack-all about how Catholicism teachings work, as well.

The catechism--the repository of and reference for official doctrine--does not address budget proposals in the United States House of Representatives.

Not sure you should be commenting on a subject you don't understand.; 8/22/12, 2:28 PM
Roy Lofquist said...: The Catholic Church has been under attack for 2000 years. Last I checked they're still here. It was probably a bad idea to pick this particular fight.; 8/22/12, 2:29 PM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: No Erika, Althouse is right, who do you think that ad was targeting, liberals? LMAO.

You still don't get it. It's not targeting "liberals" or "conservatives." It's targeting Catholics who may not be fully aware that there has been an attack on their faith for the first time in recent memory. No attack, no ad with scary music. What part of "this is a RESPONSE to the aggression of the Obama administration" is hard for you to grasp?; 8/22/12, 2:31 PM
MadisonMan said...: I expected an orc to show up.; 8/22/12, 2:32 PM
Anonymous said...: Blogger MadisonMan said...

I expected an orc to show up.
---------------------------------

LOL; 8/22/12, 2:34 PM
Andy said...: Who are the people taking moral advice from a group of people that think it's ok to cover up a global conspiracy of child rape?; 8/22/12, 2:34 PM
edutcher said...: What Roy said.

And keep this in mind, there a lot more Catholics whose sentiments are with the Church which sent priests to be the chaplains for all the Ranger Battalion in WWII than with the liberation theology crowd.; 8/22/12, 2:37 PM
Anonymous said...: Jennifer Rubin pointed out it was sheer political stupidity for the Obama administration to pick a fight with the Catholic Church in an election year.

That alone could cost Obama the election in November.; 8/22/12, 2:37 PM
Calypso Facto said...: You should ask the Pope what he thought about the Iraq War.
You should ask him what he thinks about anonymous drone killings.

Or the Bishops what they think about the Ryan budget.

Yes, let's:
Bishop Robert C. Morlino of Madison, WI—Paul Ryan’s home diocese
"I am defending [Rep. Ryan’s] reputation because I am the one who, as his diocesan bishop, should have something to say about this, if anyone does….Since others have, I believe, unfairly attacked his reputation, I have to look out for his good name. That is Church law. If someone disagrees with Paul, he is free to do that. But not on the basis of reputation destruction, really calumny."

Further, Mr. Ryan is a “brother in the faith,” who is “aware of Catholic Social Teaching and is very careful to fashion and form his conclusions in accord with the principles.”; 8/22/12, 2:38 PM
jeff said...: "With that comment, you reveal that you are not, in fact, a Christian, no matter what you may think."

That's interesting. As I am not one myself (Andy, FOAD) I have to go on what I've learned. I was unaware that the religion required its practitioners to be perfect. It's my understanding that the whole idea is that they are not perfect and that imperfection will not doom them in eternity, as long as they ask for forgiveness. A valid point could be made that such a statement violates the doctrine, but that isn't the statement you made.

"Catholic bishops say GOP budget proposal fails moral test"
"American Christianity is so fucking dumb I never know what is real and what is satire being made to mock Christians for being idiots."

Now I'm unclear as to why someone would support his argument put forth by someone fucking dumb and idiot(ic); 8/22/12, 2:39 PM
Amartel said...: It's an ad by (conservative) Catholics for Catholics so duh there are religious themes. But "vote Republican or go to Hell"?

Nope. Not seeing that. Does fire necessarily represent Hell? No. Also, specifically not in the context of this ad.

Maybe it's easier to make that connection if you
(1) Have contempt for Catholics, Christians, people who deviate for your personal belief system, etc.
or
(2) Have a strong urge to pronounce a pox on both houses for their silly silly political ads but no credible evidence to support the charge.
In other words, you see what you want to see. Cultist.; 8/22/12, 2:42 PM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: Yes, Andy, every single Catholic endorses covering up a global conspiracy of child rape.; 8/22/12, 2:43 PM
garage mahal said...: Ryan's former Priest:
Paul Ryan’s former priest: ‘Your kids may starve to death’ because of budget cuts

Jesuits:
In short, your budget appears to reflect the values of your favorite philosopher, Ayn Rand, rather than the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Her call to selfishness and her antagonism toward religion are antithetical to the Gospel values of compassion and love.; 8/22/12, 2:44 PM
Nathan Alexander said...: What Catholic child rape conspiracy was there?

I never heard anything about it.

I did hear about a homosexual recruitment scandal within the Catholic Church that was covered up by deliberately and dishonestly using the inaccurate term "pedophilia"...is that the one you are talking about?; 8/22/12, 2:51 PM
Michael said...: AllieOop: Because you cannot, of course, do more than one thing at once.

But seeing a film about beliefs must be unsettling. Remember that tolerance does not equal love and intolerance does not equal hate.; 8/22/12, 2:52 PM
furious_a said...: AndyR: Who are the people taking moral advice from a group of people that think it's ok to cover up a global conspiracy of child rape?

Apparently the same people who are citing this group's criticism of Congressman Ryan's budget.; 8/22/12, 2:53 PM
Michael said...: AndyR: So you are with the Bishops on their economic views but not on their moral opinions? You would think that an educated person would view it the other way around. But then your education is not complete.; 8/22/12, 2:55 PM
Lauderdale Vet said...: Looks like the same people who produced the FairTax video, which I quite liked.; 8/22/12, 2:57 PM
Michael said...: Garage: Cut and paste us some Jesuit views on first causes and abortion. Tks.; 8/22/12, 2:58 PM
furious_a said...: Prof. Althouse must have mistaken the ballot in the blacksmith's hand for a pitchfork.; 8/22/12, 3:03 PM
Andy said...: Pope Benedict linked to molestation cover-up

Benedict Helped Shield Pedophiles Before He Became Pope

Vatican Declined to Defrock U.S. Priest Who Abused Boys

Pope accused of failing to act on sex abuse case

Pope Benedict accused of masterminding Catholic Church sex abuse cover-up

People think Benedict is the guy with a magic phone to talk with God about important issues? And people turn to Catholicism for moral guidance? Weird.; 8/22/12, 3:03 PM
Anonymous said...: St. Michael, trying to preach to the heathens, LMAO. This thread is getting quite amusing.; 8/22/12, 3:04 PM
Michael said...: AllieOpp: Other than the twisted logic of Andy R and your chat room manner I see nothing amusing about this thread at all. The film should be a reminder that there are those who hold strong beliefs that do not bend to smirking or television ethics. The ad is aimed at voters but is not a Republican ad which you apparently believed going by your comment at 1:38 which repeats a theme you have carried from thread to thread over the last couple of days. Just as most progressives believe that abortion is more convenient and cheaper than contraception or timely decision making, some conservatives believe that there are moral absolutes. Unhip people but people nonetheless.; 8/22/12, 3:12 PM
Thorley Winston said...: I wonder how many people watched the entire video and thought “you really shouldn’t be putting things on top of the American flag like it’s a table cloth.”; 8/22/12, 3:13 PM
Tom Spaulding said...: Andy R. said...
Who are the people taking moral advice from a group of people that think it's ok to cover up a global conspiracy of child rape?

8/22/12 2:34 PM

I can't figure out what caused them to rape children...being gay or being priests?; 8/22/12, 3:14 PM
Tom Spaulding said...: People think Benedict is the guy with a magic phone to talk with God about important issues? And people turn to Catholicism for moral guidance? Weird.

The kids turned to gay priests for moral guidance. Weird.; 8/22/12, 3:16 PM
Anonymous said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 8/22/12, 3:23 PM
Farmer said...: Immigration reform? Negotiable.

Capital punishment? Negotiable.

Preferential option for the poor? Negotiable.

Of course this stuff is designed to get votes for the GOP. Duh. Unless you want to believe that it's merely a coincidence that every one of the social issues the bishops set forth as non-negotiable happen to fall exactly in line with the GOP and every single one of the negotiable ones happen to fall in line with the Dems. It's shameful and embarrassing to watch Bishops like Morlino exhort the flock to vote Republican without actually saying the word "Republican" all the while insisting that they're not promoting any particular party or candidate. Wink, wink.

There's something vile about these leaders of the Church doing everything in their power to subvert the Church's official exhortations to develop an informed conscience. It's ugly, and I say that as a practicing Catholic who is voting for Romney and voted for McCain last time.; 8/22/12, 3:32 PM
Brent said...: Vote Republican or go to Hell.

FINALLY! A political ad title that tells the truth!; 8/22/12, 3:32 PM
hombre said...: garage wrote: "In short, your budget appears to reflect the values of your favorite philosopher, Ayn Rand, rather than the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Her call to selfishness and her antagonism toward religion are antithetical to the Gospel values of compassion and love."

You might want to reread this, garage. The Jesuits did not say this. It is not in quotes. It is editorial license taken by the author.; 8/22/12, 3:34 PM
Alex said...: I just want to be clear about something. A true Christian never uses bad language and turns the other cheek, always. Right?; 8/22/12, 3:38 PM
Alex said...: If the GOP thinks their Talibanesque abortion plank is something be proud of, I want Romney & Ryan to preach it from the highest rooftops every day of the election. Yet they seem to be running away from it, like bugs exposed to the light.; 8/22/12, 3:39 PM
Alex said...: Althouse can play her audience like a fiddle.

Yes let's pretend Althouse has only ever catered to the red-meat conservatives and is a pro-lifer to boot.; 8/22/12, 3:41 PM
Anonymous said...: It's true that American Catholics tend to vote Democratic on account of social justice issues.

This year is different.

* The Obama administration is forcing Catholic organizations to fund contraception in spite of the Church's principled stand.

Catholics who oppose contraceptives and will oppose Obama on that score. Other American Catholics may not care about birth control, but will oppose Obama for betraying the Bishops and muscling the Church. And some won't like the encroachment on freedom of religion.

* Obama has come out publicly for same-sex marriage, which the Church absolutely opposes.

* Abortion has become a stronger issue and Obama has a grisly record supporting partial-birth legislation.

Non-Catholics may not care about these matters and anti-Catholic bigots hate the Church in any event.

Nonetheless, this ad does represent real issues for Catholics. If you want to understand this year's electoral landscape and one of the largest voter blocs, it's worth paying heed.; 8/22/12, 3:46 PM
Brian Brown said...: Andy R. said...

People think Benedict is the guy with a magic phone to talk with God about important issues? And people turn to Catholicism for moral guidance? Weird.

What's even funnier is your inability to distinguish between allegations and fact.; 8/22/12, 3:49 PM
garage mahal said...: hombre
here is the letter signed by over a dozen Jesuit priests where that passage was lifted.; 8/22/12, 3:53 PM
Farmer said...: creeley23 said...
It's true that American Catholics tend to vote Democratic on account of social justice issues.

I'm almost 100% positive that isn't true. Catholics have been voting Republican more and more over the past 10-20 years.; 8/22/12, 3:55 PM
Geoff Matthews said...: Agree that this isn't an issue of hell, but of being purified.
There's an allegory of purification from the fires, where the dross is removed. I'm pretty sure its an Old Testament bit.

Having said that, I didn't like the add. It was overtly religious, and, while I consider myself to be a religious person (LDS), I like an appeal to reason, rather than faith, in my politics.; 8/22/12, 3:57 PM
LakeLevel said...: Andy Oop Ann et. al. cannot help but show their ignorant caricature understanding of the Catholic Church. You people really don't understand how dumb you are. I'll pray for you, not that you have the slightest idea what that means.; 8/22/12, 4:10 PM
Anonymous said...: Catholics have been voting Republican more and more over the past 10-20 years.

The Farmer: I had in mind more like the past 50 years or so. I was raised Catholic I didn't know any Catholic Republicans until Reagan was elected.

It's harder to look this up than I expected. In 2004 Bush took the Catholic vote 52%/47%. In 2008 Obama won that vote 54%/45%.; 8/22/12, 4:13 PM
Farmer said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 8/22/12, 4:17 PM
Farmer said...: The Farmer said...
I'm almost 100% positive that isn't true. Catholics have been voting Republican more and more over the past 10-20 years.

I haven't been able to find much on this but it looks like I was wrong:

1972: Majority of Catholics voted for Nixon - 52% Gallup, 59% National Election Studies

1976: Majority for Carter - 57% (Both Gallup and NES)

1980: Majority for Reagan - 47% Gallup, 50% NES

1984: Majority for Reagan - 61% Gallup, 54% NES

1988: Majority for Dukakis - 51% Gallup, 52% NES

1992: Majority for Clinton: 47% Gallup, 50% NES

1996: Majority for Clinton: 55% (both Gallup & NES)

2000: Majority for Gore: 52% Gallup, 50% NES

2004: Majority for Kerry: 52% Gallup, 51% NES

2008: Majority for Obama: 53% Gallup, 57% NES

http://cara.georgetown.edu/Presidential%20Vote%20Only.pdf

It's actually been weirdly stable. I was wrong, my bad.; 8/22/12, 4:18 PM
Farmer said...: creeley23 said...
It's harder to look this up than I expected.

I know, it's ridiculous.

In 2004 Bush took the Catholic vote 52%/47%.

I read that too but I haven't seen any actual polls that back it up and the Gallup and NES contradict it.; 8/22/12, 4:21 PM
Anonymous said...: LakeLevel, yes do that, because everyone knows God only listens to Catholics and Fundamentalists.; 8/22/12, 4:22 PM
Farmer said...: LakeLevel said...
Andy Oop Ann et. al. cannot help but show their ignorant caricature understanding of the Catholic Church. You people really don't understand how dumb you are. I'll pray for you, not that you have the slightest idea what that means.

(Jesus) then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else."Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector.The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, 'O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity--greedy, dishonest, adulterous--or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.' But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, 'O God, be merciful to me a sinner.' I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted."

Luke 18:9-14; 8/22/12, 4:24 PM
Farmer said...: But yeah, let's all pray for the dummies to get a clue, like us terrific Catholics.; 8/22/12, 4:25 PM
chickelit said...: LakeLevel said...
Andy Oop Ann et. al. cannot help but show their ignorant caricature understanding of the Catholic Church. You people really don't understand how dumb you are.

According to Oop, she grew up in a fundamentalist church and so my theory is that she's acting out against something in her past. Kinda the way I piss on my own 40 years of voting Democratic.

As for Andy R, I suspect he just says whatever the other Andrew tells him to say. I see a 99% homology in thinking.; 8/22/12, 4:35 PM
Tom Spaulding said...: The Farmer said...
But yeah, let's all pray for the dummies to get a clue, like us terrific Catholics..

Gee, I wonder if there are any other pre-conceptions, beliefs or opinions you hold that you are "nearly 100% sure of" that also prove to be nearly 100% false.

Good luck on your journey. You may need to do more searching than via than Google though.; 8/22/12, 4:37 PM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: Farmer, it's not self-righteousness; it's irritation at Andy and Allie's willful ignorance and childish delight in spouting insulting blather about topics they don't understand.

P.S. five tries on the word verification. Getting ridiculous.; 8/22/12, 4:41 PM
Anonymous said...: I grew up in an Assemblies of God church, I know all too well of what I speak. Guess what they preached? That Catholics would never see heaven. Strange how times have changed.; 8/22/12, 4:51 PM
Farmer said...: Tom Spaulding said...
Gee, I wonder if there are any other pre-conceptions, beliefs or opinions you hold that you are "nearly 100% sure of" that also prove to be nearly 100% false.

Probably. I kind of feel like a horse's ass when I do stuff like that but I'd feel way worse if I dug in my heels and refused to admit when I was wrong.

Good luck on your journey. You may need to do more searching than via than Google though.

I'm almost 100% sure there's a whole lotta sanctimony in this thread.

Erika said...
Farmer, it's not self-righteousness; it's irritation at Andy and Allie's willful ignorance and childish delight in spouting insulting blather about topics they don't understand.

It sounded pretty self-righteous to me but tomayto tomahto I guess.

What insulting blather has Allie posted? She called somebody named Michael "St. Michael." That's about all I've seen (haven't read the whole thread though) and while it's technically insulting it's pretty mild stuff compared to what I see flung her way every day around here for doing nothing more than peacefully disagreeing with people. I'm not sure why so many people use her as a punching bag. I think I disagree with her on just about everything politically but she seems like a very nice lady who almost never gets into name calling and insults.; 8/22/12, 5:15 PM
Anonymous said...: The Farmer: Thanks for the shoe leather on those stats!

AllieOop puts more spin in the ball than I like sometime but she's OK.

AllieOop: Thanks for answering my question a few nights ago.; 8/22/12, 6:07 PM
Anonymous said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 8/22/12, 6:16 PM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: I grew up in an Assemblies of God church, I know all too well of what I speak. Guess what they preached? That Catholics would never see heaven. Strange how times have changed.

What exactly TF does that have to do with anything, Allie?

You don't get why Catholics are pissed. You don't even know that that's what you're SUPPOSED to get, because that is what this post and, ostensibly, this discussion is about. Farmer asked why you take a lot of hits around here, and frankly I think a lot of it is jerkiness and you don't deserve it, but it's also because it's exasperating that for a reasonably bright person you miss the point so continualy and enthusiastically.; 8/22/12, 6:19 PM
Anonymous said...: Thanks Creely, that answer of mine to you, at least I think that was you, in which I said it was my belief that a fetus has a soul, got me in a whole lot of hot water with those on the right and even someone on the left. That is one of the reasons I hesitated to answer you, but it's way I truly feel. If some people have problems with it, so be it.

Thanks so much Farmer, that's exactly what I needed to hear today. :); 8/22/12, 6:19 PM
Anonymous said...: Erika, this discussion is about why Catholics are pissed? Is that what you decided this blog post is about? Perhaps Alhouse would've titled this blog post, "Why Catholics are pissed". I take hits because I am outspoken and a liberal woman, and some big brave males around here feel that is an easy target.; 8/22/12, 6:35 PM
Anonymous said...: AllieOop: 'Twasn't me. I asked you whether you would vote for Obama this time and why you thought other women would.

I realized afterward that my real question was why some women are still enthusiastic about Obama this time.; 8/22/12, 6:39 PM
Anonymous said...: "Why Catholics Are Pissed" is a more accurate title for discussion of that video than "Vote Republican or go to Hell."; 8/22/12, 6:52 PM
test said...: Erika said...
Farmer asked why you take a lot of hits around here, and frankly I think a lot of it is jerkiness and you don't deserve it

It's jerkiness like this from Allie:

AllieOop said...
And you controlling right wing jerks and the women who walk ten steps behind them, thanks for giving us Democrats the Presidency, four more years!

They got their "plank", now they can shove it where the sun don't shine.

As for you rational conservatives, I'm sorry the Jebus freaks ruined it for you.

8/22/12 12:01 PM

Poor Allie.; 8/22/12, 6:55 PM
Anonymous said...: Ah yes, now I remember. I've made up my mind, I will be voting for Obama. I at one time felt I could actually vote for Romney, but after the Repulican Party's abortion with no exception platform, no, I can't. I don't think that I will be alone in this decision, I think there will be a good number of women who will be voting for Obama now for sure.; 8/22/12, 6:55 PM
test said...: I take hits because I am outspoken and a liberal woman, and some big brave males around here feel that is an easy target.

She thinks she's a martyr. The best laugh I've had this week.; 8/22/12, 6:57 PM
Anonymous said...: Yup even I, saintly woman that I am, get pissed, Marshal.; 8/22/12, 7:00 PM
Anonymous said...: And Marshal, you're still not allowed in the line to kiss my ass. You creep me out.; 8/22/12, 7:08 PM
test said...: AllieOop said...
Ah yes, now I remember. I've made up my mind, I will be voting for Obama.

You take hits because you're dishonest like this. You're a nutty lefty trying to justify your positions not using the principles you hold, but rather those you think will appeal to conservatives.

And there are two problems with this. (a) You can't have an honest discussion with someone who lies even about her base principles, and (b) the only conceivable reason for doing this is to influence others. So it becomes incumbent on others to point out her dishonesty and lies.; 8/22/12, 7:13 PM
test said...: AllieOop said...
And Marshal, you're still not allowed in the line to kiss my ass. You creep me out.

I already flossed today anyway.; 8/22/12, 7:14 PM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: Erika, this discussion is about why Catholics are pissed? Is that what you decided this blog post is about? Perhaps Alhouse would've titled this blog post, "Why Catholics are pissed".

So, are you and Althouse deliberately or blindly misunderstanding the point of that ad?

I think one of you is doing the former, and one the latter.

Althouse bitches, periodically, about people "misunderstanding" the point of her posts. At first I thought she truly failed to comprehend what that ad is trying to say, which amused me because she condescends so stridently to her commenters when they commit this grievous sin. Then I decided she's too clever for that. She understands exactly what that ad is actually about (Catholics being stirred to political action by the attack on what they see as eternal truths) and gives that silly post title, the better to sit back and watch the pageviews roll in. Or something.

By the way, regarding women who congratulate themselves on being "outspoken," there's an old saying: Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. Just a thought, for those days when you feel like personally providing half the comments on a given post. You're acting like that terrible stereotype of the woman--actually not a stereotype, because I knew so many of them in high school and college--who has to constantly talk, talk, talk to prove that she has Just As Much Real Smart Thoughts!! as the guys, and yet doesn't really think about whether her thoughts are worth sharing or not. As a woman, this sort of behavior embarrasses me. Not one person's vote is going to change based on a bunch of sturm and drang in the media about abortion; quit being a drama queen about it.; 8/22/12, 7:19 PM
Nick Carter M. said...: I can see the sadness in Andy R's eyes from his photo.

I think I've mentioned it on here that gay people have 3-4x the rate of mental illness. I've linked to the evidence before too.

If Andy doesn't stop with his hate and bigotry toward God's people he will be cursed.

AllieOop said...
LakeLevel, yes do that, because everyone knows God only listens to Catholics and Fundamentalists.

God listens to everyone's prayers but only answers those who have been saved.

Good luck being saved as a liberal. I was born again after becoming a Conservative about 9 months earlier. Liberals don't believe in moral absolutes, and they view the world in a negative light.; 8/22/12, 7:36 PM
test said...: Allie,

Have you finished the details on your theory that Republicans are trying to enforce The Handmaid's Tale in America? I'm looking forward to that. It might convince me to vote for Obama.; 8/22/12, 7:42 PM
Anonymous said...: Erika, for a young woman you are very uptight and controlling. I have daughters older than you, who have been raised to have a mind of their own, are fun loving, outspoken and succesful and all are women I am very proud of.

What makes you so sure your own thoughts are worth sharing, you are an arrogant young woman Erika. I generally skip over your comments as I find them very boring, but sometimes when I do read them I cringe, because you sound like an uptight nun or just a unhappy dour woman.; 8/22/12, 7:46 PM
Alex said...: Allie - liberal women are the most turgid humorless beings there are.; 8/22/12, 7:48 PM
Anonymous said...: Nick Carter, will Catholics who are not "saved" be admitted to heaven? I remeber one of the elders from the Assemblies of God church coming to visit me after I converted to Lutheranism and he told me I would not be able to enter heaven. Do you agree with him?; 8/22/12, 7:52 PM
Anonymous said...: Alex, get in line.; 8/22/12, 7:54 PM
Jane said...: "As an Illinois state senator, Obama opposed the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act. The problem, in Obama's own words, was that in some cases the "fetus, or child -- however you want to describe it" was "not just coming out limp and dead." Supporters of the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act wanted to require doctors to provide medical care to these infants, while Obama wanted to leave it up to the discretion of the abortionist to determine whether these infants had a reasonable chance of sustained life."

I'll choose the Refiner's fire over this miserable worldview.; 8/22/12, 7:57 PM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: Nah, Allie, I'm cool, but thanks for the free personality analysis! : ); 8/22/12, 8:40 PM
YoungHegelian said...: @allie,

Nick Carter, will Catholics who are not "saved" be admitted to heaven?

There is, according to the Roman Catholic Church, no knowledge of salvation (i.e. election) in this life. St. Thomas Aquinas is very strong on this point in the ST, even claiming that the ability to perform miracles is no guarantee.

They do claim that there is "no salvation outside the Church". But, "the Church" is quite definitely not just the "visible Church", and God saves those who He willeth. The idea of the visible vs invisible Church of the elect gets much more airtime in the more Calvinistic Christian sects than it does in the RCC, but the idea is definitely there in the RCC, when it'll get dragged out when we get embarrassed about the idea of virtuous pagans going to Hell. Remember, it's Virgil who's Dante's guide, and even if he cannot enter Heaven until the end of days, he is still a figure of great sympathy.

In short, since none of us can possibly know our status as the Elect, we should all refrain whenever possible from casting each other into Hell, since that judgement is God's alone.; 8/22/12, 8:54 PM
YoungHegelian said...: @allie,

Which is not to say that RCC doesn't have a strong predilection for making sure you're in the right visible Church (i.e. them) in this life. The sacraments do make that salvation business much easier, and it makes sure that you deposit those dollar bills in the right collection plate and baptize those babies in the right fountain.; 8/22/12, 8:59 PM
Fr Martin Fox said...: Being anti-Obama is not reflexively to be pro-Romney, although many think that way. I don't.

I won't vote for either.

I do not consider it my "duty" to vote for Romney as the only way to stop Obama. I consider it my duty to cast a vote I can answer to God for in good conscience.

I have no power over the aggregate outcome. I can influence it, but I can't control it. I can control the single vote I cast.

My plan, at this point, is to vote against Obama, certainly; but I'll vote, I think, for Mr. Goode of Virginia.

A thrown away vote? I think not. If he wins with my help, I can live with that.

And to those who want to blame me for Obama's victory, I offer a bet. I bet $500 that this election will not pivot on the outcome in my precinct. I've never cast the determining vote in any election, and I am ready to risk $500 in confidence it won't happen this year. Any takers?; 8/22/12, 9:10 PM
YoungHegelian said...: Also, as a former lefty-Catholic, I think what Prof. Althouse misses in the forge imagery in the video is the Catholic emphasis on the dignity of labor, and, in this case, using the imagery of that tradition to remind the blue-collar Catholics (who are a swing vote) that there are moral issues as grave as their economic concerns that must be weighed in the balance.

But there's definitely a whiff of hellfire & brimstone at the end there.; 8/22/12, 9:18 PM
traditionalguy said...: Fire is a symbol of suffering.

The Church has had its share of suffering for the faith. Even after the Roman Emperor co-opted the Church, their suffering still periodically occurred.

Suffering has two effects: 1) it teaches one to endure to the point of death, and 2)it also creates a merciful emotion to offer relief to other humans who are suffering.

I thank God for the Church, as angry as they make me at times.; 8/22/12, 9:32 PM
DEEBEE said...: Powerful! My only beef, why was voting presumably correctly not cathartic for the lady? She still seemed glum.; 8/23/12, 4:59 AM
Known Unknown said...: Nick Carter, will Catholics who are not "saved" be admitted to heaven?

Of what matter is it to you?; 8/23/12, 9:23 AM