"... and they would giggle too. People started finding me on Facebook... or recognizing Christian from hearing about him... People started telling me how Christian inspired them."
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165 comments:
That was a pretty good story shame on the woman who said this young lady was horrible for not aborting this baby. It's probably not polite conversation to ask what's wrong with this child. It's good that with this young lady there is something of a positive outcome with this ordeal of sorts.
Ok, the first thing I thought, before the video started was: my wife used to get that "kid head split lip" but I always managed to dodge it.
I really respect people who bring up kids with issues - I'm sure we could do it, but I know how hard it is with "normal" kids.
-XC
Beautiful, moving. She did the right thing for her and her baby, I'm glad she had a choice. Im sure she will love him unconditionally. And gay children deserve that same love and acceptance, because they too are born that way.
And gay children deserve that same love and acceptance, because they too are born that way.
So you're agreeing then that just as that mother did all she could to remediate her son's condition, that a mother and father of a gay person should also do all they can do as well.
And what we can't do on earth we'll leave to God who will make everything new again and wipe away all tears.
I agree.
I think I know what you mean AO, but your comparison is flawed.
Impatient person that I am (the music she chose didn't help), I didn't stick around 'til the end.
What was wrong with the kid?
What a beautiful video! I love that she reacts to each "slide" right along with us.
Would it still have been a moving story, Allie, if you couldn't have applied it to gay people?
.. unless you mean to say that gayness is a birth defect.. in which case I cannot agree with you.
What was wrong with the kid?
Madison Man - The little boy's eyes did not form and his mouth was an unusual shape. But there was nothing wrong with him. He likes to laugh and play with people. His mother made the video to help people know how to act around her son.
Prairie Wind, of course I would be. When a child is born with a certain condition that has no "cure", then what? How succesful has therapy been to make a homosexual's brain, reverse its sexual imprint action that occured when the child was in utero?
Brain Sex differentiation
And gay children deserve that same love and acceptance, because they too are born that way.
Pure trolling.
Thank you, Freeman. Seemed clear to me, too.
Christian's mom is trying to tell us that Christian, for all his problems, is a little boy who deserves to be seen as an individual...and then someone uses Christian to flog their own personal hobby horse.
AllieOop:
1. You just compared homosexuality to a severe birth defect. I suspect that was not your intent.
2. We just watched a very moving video. You commented, "Yes, that's lovely, NOW LET'S TALK ABOUT WHAT I WANT TO TALK ABOUT." It's a little tacky.
The feminists would call that baby a burden.
So does Zero.
AllieOop said...
Im sure she will love him unconditionally. And gay children deserve that same love and acceptance, because they too are born that way.
Why would she not?
And if children were born homosexual, one would imagine we'd be having it rammed down our throats (no pun).
Do you for one minute think that Ann Althouse does not love her child as much as this woman?
Both conditions are birth anomalies. There are some anomalies that are not visable to the eye until later in a child's life.
Freeman, and you call yourself Christian? Did you even read the research? How can you love and accept a child with one form of birth anomaly and condem another?
You are disgusting, worse than a troll.
And she follows it up with troll even more purely refined. I thought the first one was at the purity limit, but one learns something new everyday.
AllieOop said...
Do you for one minute think that Ann Althouse does not love her child as much as this woman?
Both conditions are birth anomalies. There are some anomalies that are not visable to the eye until later in a child's life.
Then Oop agrees it's not "normal", as the militants insist.
We are making progress, then.
MM, if you move the slider to the end, she shows the baby so that you can see what she was talking about. I didn't sit through it either.
"And gay children deserve that same love and acceptance, because they too are born that way."
How remarkable that someone could watch that video and have nothing more profound to say than this! It's all about sex and the talking points, right Allie?
In the same spirit as your comment: Lucky for Christian and Helen Keller that Allie's progressive masters have not been in charge. Peter Singer, lefty bioethics guru has proposed just the "solution" for parents of "imperfect" children.
Beautiful, moving. She did the right thing for her and her baby, I'm glad she had a choice. Im sure she will love him unconditionally. And gay children deserve that same love and acceptance, because they too are born that way.
5/10/12 1:02 PM
THAT is what I said in it's entirety. Strange how you just ignored my first TWO sentences.
Maybe because they're boilerplate.
Oop wanted to make this a guilt trip about homosexuals and to tout her pet theory about how it happens.
What a beautiful moving video. Shame the thread was hijacked.
I think sometimes life presents you with opportunities to teach others about things they want to deny. And you should feel guilty that you despise children born gay.
What if Christian is a gay child? How will you view him in 15 years then? Will you hate him for his "choice"? I bet his mother will still love and accept him.
I killed my comments since AO is a disingenuous troll, and one was in response to a comment she stealth-deleted, and I don't want to be part of her thread-jacking.
Very moving video - I watched the whole thing, even though the music was not exactly my bag. Sort of wondering what happened to Chris - is he still in the picture? Having a kid with complications can put huge strains on a marriage, so I hope they made it through together.
Honestly I don't know how you do it day after day, Ann listening to your commenters spew this ignorance and hatred, it makes me sick to my stomach.
Look up "tu quoque argument".
Holdfast did you not notice, I reposted the comment. I deleted because of a spelling error.
Allie (2:17): "THAT is what I said in it's entirety. Strange how you just ignored my first TWO sentences."
Nice try. The first two sentences were just foreplay. Everybody here knows it even though you don't know we know it.
sleepless nights makes a good point about Facebook ending the isolation for parents of a child burdened with illness or disability. Among my FB friends are those who have Down Syndrome children, and they find great comfort and assistance on FB. It is easy now to find others like you through social media. It must have been hell to go through it alone, sleepless, without a way to find a community of support.
Isn't he blind? How does he know people are staring?
"Isn't he blind? How does he know people are staring?"
It's the mother's point of view. That's how it seems to her.
Allie (2:27): "WHAT IF it [Althouse's purpose] was to teach you all that loving and accepting an innocent human born with an anomaly, deserves to be loved and honored as a child of God, just like any other child."
Here is the great delusion of liberals illustrated: They believe they are more compassionate and more intelligent than the rest of us.
Despite the fact that you bleed more freely and publicly than others here, Allie, you appear to be below the median on this website in both categories.
Obviously, Althouse was illustrating that point, but I doubt that Althouse thought she was "teaching" any of us that lesson, particularly those of us who are Christians and/or pro-life.
We, of course, realize that the difference between Christian, of the video, and an aborted child is only timing and compassionate parents. And you?
An interesting thing is that the boy is an internet celebrity, and his extremely unusual face is now a famous face. With the laughing and the love, the face has become beautiful, not just to the mother, but to everyone. It becomes possible for the mother to embrace everything and believe that it all happened for a reason, that she was tested, and that she is rewarded, even in this world.
And all because of Facebook and YouTube!
accepting an innocent human born with an anomaly, deserves to be loved and honored as a child of God, just like any other child.
or aborted. whatevs. I'm just glad you're glad she had a choice. I suspect you wouldn't feel the same about a woman who aborts a child because it would be gay? that day approaches and would be legal.
Why did I post this? Certainly not because of anything about gay people! I posted it because:
1. I found it, watched it, and was touched by it.
2. I thought people would want to talk about the abortion issue, a common topic here, in this very specific context.
3. I am interested in the way people see and react to the disabled.
4. I'm interested in the subjectiveness of beauty, including how much love and happiness projected through a face affects how we see it.
5. I found the woman's storytelling method (which I've seen in other YouTube videos) very simple and affecting.
6. I'm interested in the role of Facebook and YouTube (and other new media) in transforming the world and the way life is experienced.
7. I thought the very young mother was a beautiful woman who deserved more of what she wanted, which was for people to know her story and look at her son and really see him for what he is. She structured that through media, and it was very different from the original real-world experience which was everyone staring and expressing shock and horror.
8. "If you look at everything straight on, there is nothing to be afraid of."
I'm interested in the subjectiveness of beauty, including how much love and happiness projected through a face affects how we see it.
I love the way this works! I run into a woman once in a while who is ugly by any objective measure. She is always happy to see me and smiles. Though her smile is not pretty either, the animation and friendliness in her face makes me forget that her face was shockingly ugly the first time I met her. That is only one example but I notice that all the time. Getting to know someone makes them more beautiful.
I'm glad he has such a strong and supportive mother, he's going to need her. People are going to want to use his and hers internet fame to push an agenda. I've told the story of my grandson often enough here. Abortion, any abortion, at anytime kills the only innocent person involved in the whole deal. That we as a society would prefer to only love perfectly formed children is anethma to me. Or is it only convenient children we can love?
Ps.
So AllieOop, if homosexuality is a defect, or more pleasently, a genetic variation with a dead end, what is your stance on finding a cure? Because if it is not a defect it must be a choice, right?
@sleeplessnights
I am sorry for your pain, and would ease it if I could. I won't bore you with trite platitudes. I wish life was easier for children, that's all.
Thanks for clarifying Ann. My point in bringing up the gay issue was to point out that children are born, like this child, with conditions that are not their fault.
As for the abortion issue, as I said I'm glad she has a choice. I'm glad she chose the way she did, because she seems capable of raising this child in a loving home. Conversely a woman who knows that she could not accept a child with such issues doesn't deserve condemnation for he choice.
Sleepless Night's story is one that isn't always admitted or discussed, thanks for the honesty.
"prairie wind said...
What a beautiful video! I love that she reacts to each "slide" right along with us."
That was what got me too..instantly changing from joy to tears to joy. It said more than her words. Amazing.
AllieOop said...
Beautiful, moving. She did the right thing for her and her baby,I'm glad she had a choice.
What is that supposed to mean?
Carnifex, if the "cure" is worse than the condition and the condition does not harm the child or adult then there is no need.
How does one cure physical features on a brain? Its not messed up brain chemicals as in depression. It's been formed, it can't be physically altered, we don't have that technology yet. And if we did it would be up or the parents to decide.
I got caught behind a school bus once. It was driving down a 2 lane road with a lot of traffic coming the other way. It was picking up handicapped children to take them to school. I finally had to stop at a convenience store to let the bus go on because I was crying so hard. I'm too big a softie, and so I wear my cynical armor to protect me. My wife, and grandkids are the only ones who see me naked.
I know someone who was born with something similar to this although he had one functional eye. I don't know if it's exactly the same thing though. He had cosmetic surgery and has a glass eye. He's a doctor now and a youth pastor. Really I know his parents; they're pastors at my church.
@AllieOop
The telling words in your reply..."yet"
..."up to the parents". Do you believe a parent would choose to have their child born a homosexual? And believe it or not, the "gay" community protests any research into whether it is genetic or choice, because their whole existence is predicated on not having a choice. That they've been like this since birth. I think they understand better than you that slippery slope.
Without the "without choice" card, gays AREN'T a special class, their just people that want to be with people of the same sex. They aren't comparable to blacks, or women, or lefties.
Ps
With genetic engineering run rampant, you'll be able to chose the color of your skin yourself, including glow in the dark(like the fish). So it will all be meaningless then. All this divisiveness about color, or hair, or sex. It's all stupid posturing.
Time to ditch the racism and embrace individualism.
As for the abortion issue, as I said I'm glad she has a choice. I'm glad she chose the way she did, because she seems capable of raising this child in a loving home. Conversely a woman who knows that she could not accept a child with such issues doesn't deserve condemnation for he choice.
You're glad she has a choice? What, instead of a forced abortion? Or you're glad that she could have killed this boy if she'd wanted to?
"I'm glad she had a choice," has become one of those nonsensical mantras that one hears often.
My wife, and grandkids are the only ones who see me naked.
I knew that would get a rise..."naked" as in defenseless :-)
Carnifex, I meant if the parents choose to have therapy for their child AFTER the child is born, IF that technology would exist one day.
I'm not a spokesperson for the gay community, I was discussing this in a clinical sense and saying that it's not the fault of the child or the parent, it just is.
Good storytelling. She and her kid deserve societal support. Even from tax money. Even if she wasn't internet savvy.
Perhaps Allie Oop is trying to say she eagerly awaits the day parents of gay fetuses "have a choice".
That's the only thing that fits with everything she's said.
Freeman, I am glad she has the choice to either have the child or to abort the child.
What about Sleepless Nights story? Nobody have any opinions on what she had to say about the ramifications of having a severly deformed or I'll child. I won't condem a woman for choosing to abort. It wouldn't be MY choice t abort and I wouldn't force MY choice on anyone.
Freeman, I am glad she has the choice to either have the child or to abort the child.
"Abort" being a nice word for "kill." "I'm glad she has the choice to either have the child or to kill the child."
She did have the child. There is no threat of forced abortion in the United States, so "I'm glad she had a choice," doesn't mean, "I'm glad she could have her baby." That would be like saying, "I'm glad her roof didn't fall in today," or "I'm glad nobody pushed her off of a cliff." True, but no meaningful content, nothing worth communicating.
So it's left meaning something like, "What a beautiful baby. I'm glad she could have killed him if she'd wanted to." And that, rather than being nice, is monstrous.
NO Maybee, if there was a way to determine sexual identity of a fetus, abortion would probably never be allowed, rightfully so. The child is healthy, would not be in pain or suffering, why would abortion of a gay baby be permissible?
if there was a way to determine sexual identity of a fetus, abortion would probably never be allowed, rightfully so. The child is healthy, would not be in pain or suffering, why would abortion of a gay baby be permissible?
How did you walk into that one? How?! Are you lost? Are you really a troll? I cannot yet tell.
Freeman, the level of your hypocrisy is astounding. That is monstrous to me. I don't hear you addressing what Sleepless Nights had to say, how convenient for you to vent your spleen on me.
@ AllieOop
I know it is hun. My suggestion is that you might consider a moral stance on firmer ground that what today's definition of "is" is.
My take on abortion for example. I know it's not popular. But I don't think a society that claims to be just should kill, abort, slice heads open, or vacuum out it's weakest members. Because of my stance on abortion, I also stand against capital punishment. If you have someone in your power, then you have a responsability to protect that person, no matter how foul a person they were.
People should always be treated with respect. Until such a time as they demonstrate they don't deserve respect.
Races, genders, people, are different. If you can't handle that, tough titty.
Be pleasant in demeanor, honest in your words, and ernest in your actions. Be pleasantly surprised when other people do the same.
Don't pull a weapon unless you are going to use it.
Hope for the best, plan for the worst.
Those are a few I use to get by, and I've lived a pretty interesting life.
Oh, and be able to laugh at yourself louder than others laugh at you. Save's a lot of time and aggrevation.
Freeman, the level of your hypocrisy is astounding.
What are you even talking about? What conversation are you having?
The child is healthy, would not be in pain or suffering, why would abortion of a gay baby be permissible?
Congrats folks. We finally found a baby that trumps a woman's right to choose. A gay baby. Or is Allie wanting to outlaw the abortion of any healthy fetus?
NO Maybee, if there was a way to determine sexual identity of a fetus, abortion would probably never be allowed, rightfully so. The child is healthy, would not be in pain or suffering, why would abortion of a gay baby be permissible?
What do you mean?
Abortion is allowed now, for any reason.
Who would need to give permission for abortions of gay children? Who could withhold information?
What if a parent couldn't love a gay child unconditionally? Wouldn't you be glad that mother has a choice?
After this baby flesh pill disaster with China, why are we still even talking to those animals? Oh that's right...money. Fucking DC.
Wow, I think it's you who are lost here Freeman, are you having difficulty understand every single thing I've said or are you just trying to be contrary?
The bolded. Your thinking is such a tangled confusion. It's incoherent.
You were, however, perfectly clear when you wrote this:
Freeman, I am glad she has the choice to either have the child or to abort the child.
Also perfectly clear was my explanation of why that common saying is nonsense.
Allie this is what happens when you have positions instead of principles.
OOps, meant to say who could withhold permission.
I don't know what Freeman is doing to be a hypocrite.
To me, it's the pro-choice person who believes an abortion wouldn't "be allowed" for gay-tested fetuses that seems a little...iffy.
Freeman, what is your fixation with this ridiculous troll thing? Can you not argue a point without accusing someone of being a troll? Why can you not accept the fact that someone believes differently than you and stop accusing them of trolling?
I've been here on Althouse long enough and commented on many different issues. By now you should be insightful enough to know that my comments are sincere, whether you agree with them or not.
I'm getting to the point that I won't respond to you.
I found the woman's storytelling method (which I've seen in other YouTube videos) very simple and affecting.
I did not.
I invariably want to read faster, or see the next slide, before the presenter. Don't make me sit through a presentation that should be much shorter.
For those not knowing Thousands of pills from China have been intercepted that contained a whitish powder. The powder turns out to be flesh, from a freeze dried human fetus. Their sold as a aphrodisiac, 'cause nothing gets a communist hornier than a pile of dead babies. And members of Zero's administration admire these ghouls.
AOop, a few comments:
1. What I read you getting is not hatefulness, but an attack on your flawed logic.
2. Leaving aside the faulty comparison of being gay to a birth defect, the one thing that your faulty comparison does is highlight the very real issue of what we choose to call an acceptable or unacceptable urge or tendency or desire and why.
3. To me, the most beautiful thing that two humans can ever do is create a third human.
Devalue that creative act and suddenly abortion is OK.
I'd argue making abortion illegal purely because it is an attack on the most beautiful thing two people can ever do in their lives.
4. But if we devalue such an astounding creative act, as we have, then certainly gay relationships seem fine.
Having already marked very low the value of two people creating a third person, it is a short step to marking as equal a relationships in which two people can never create a third.
This is how abortion and homosexuality are linked. They both devalue the awesome and unparalleled condition that two people can choose to make a third, and a forth, and a fifth.
In our current society, we're all about valuing art, and electronic gadgets, and homes, and vacations, and forests, and snail darters and spotted owls.
But we can't even see how far above all of those things it is that two people can make a third.
I oppose gay marriage and hope homosexuality can be overcome because I hope ever person has the opportunity to participate in the overwhelmingly beautiful and astoundingly creative act of making a human.
state your principle then, because you contradict yourself.
Why can you not accept the fact that someone believes differently than you and stop accusing them of trolling?
You think that that's why I initially accused you of trolling?
That's the kind of thing that makes me think you're a troll.
I've been here on Althouse long enough and commented on many different issues. By now you should be insightful enough to know that my comments are sincere, whether you agree with them or not.
The reason I've never heavily gone after your statements in the past is that I thought they were sincere, that you were confused, and that going after them would be gratuitous.
Now I'm not so sure. Maybe it's an act. I don't know.
@madman
"My baby was born deformed. We love him anyway. Here he is"
How was that?
Funny thing is, the same could be said of Sarah and Trig Palin, but I can't imagine the venom that would spew from the left if that happened.
"AllieOop said...
NO Maybee, if there was a way to determine sexual identity of a fetus, abortion would probably never be allowed, rightfully so. The child is healthy, would not be in pain or suffering, why would abortion of a gay baby be permissible?"
Are you fucking serious? The one thing that is NEVER factored in to whether an abortion is legal is the "why" someone wants one. Perfectly health fetuses are aborted everyday you moron. Funny that you think that "gay" alone should be some protected class.
"The child is healthy, would not be in pain or suffering, why would abortion of a gay baby be permissible?.
Allie, is this the standard? Abortions, but only for straight children? You may want to rethink that. I mean, either there's a choice, or there isn't.
Freeman, you feel I am confused because I have have a different outlook than you. Quite condescending.
No, I think you're confused because you hold insane positions like, "I'm pro-choice unless the baby is gay."
Perhaps there should be more limitations put on abortion, you people seem to think I am pro abortion in all cases, you would be wrong. I don't think aborting a baby merely because it's the wrong sex or a baby that may be gay should be allowed. This is done in India and China, now they haven't got enough females, plus it begins to be veer towards Eugenics.
But overturning Roe V Wade would not be the way to do it. Weve been through this argument ad nauseum in past threads.
I guess Blogger ate my comment.
I wrote something like, "No, I think you're confused because you hold insane positions like 'I am pro-choice unless the baby is gay.'"
You have stated before that you are "staunchly pro-choice."
Pete said,
"Allie Oop, though Althouse opposes abortion as a choice for her, she is staunchly pro-choice. I'm sure she'll correct me if I'm wrong about this."
Thanks Pete, then Althouse and I are in complete agreement.
Where did I say I was pro choice unless the baby was gay?
I'm glad she had a choice.
I don't think aborting a baby merely because it's the wrong sex or a baby that may be gay should be allowed.
How much clearer can I make myself?! I am pro choice. I do not want Roe V Wade overturned.
However, I do feel that we need to think of a future in which babies are aborted for reasons that Carnifex gave, the wrong eye color, the wrong sex, because it's gay and put LIMITATIONS on abortions done solely for these reasons.
put LIMITATIONS on abortions done solely for these reasons.
Through what? Mind reading?
Additionally, what if someone just wants an abortion because she wants to be able to afford a manicure every single day and doesn't think she can if she has a baby? What if someone wants an abortion because she hates babies? What if someone wants an abortion because she wants to kill someone?
Would those reasons be less evil than eye color or your other examples? How many evil reasons shall our mind reading machine check for?
I think Roe V. Wade should be overturned. Not because it allows abortions, but because it is bad law. The sensible thing to have done, and the constitutional thing by the way, is to leave it up to individual states. Instead we get a mandate from some black robe that nobody elected. And that's a dictatorship.
If it had been left as a states rights issue, then, oh say, 50% of the states would allow abortion and 50% wouldn't. And groups like PP could help those women in non-abortion states to get to clinics in other states, and the anti-abortion people wouldn't be forced to pay for something they consider a sin.
But that's not good enough for liberal progressives. They have to force their beliefs on everyone because they care more.
"However, I do feel that we need to think of a future in which babies are aborted for reasons that Carnifex gave, the wrong eye color, the wrong sex, because it's gay and put LIMITATIONS on abortions done solely for these reasons."
Really?
Not to pile on or something but... if eye color isn't an acceptable reason for an abortion, how about "darn, I thought he'd marry me" or "can't be bothered to take my pill" or "oops! fat during bikini season, didn't see that coming!"
It's horrible enough, really, to think that we can decide to abort or not abort because there is something wrong with the child, even a severe problem, but it's at least understandable, just like not carrying a child conceived by violent rape is understandable, if sad.
But abortion has never ever been about that. It's been about a woman not wanting to be pregnant. Nothing more, nothing less. It's about "I don't want to have this baby."
There has never been, ever, any notion that she's got to have a reason that other people, even the father, would agree about.
That's what pro-choice means. Own it.
Allie under Roe v Wade abortion is a privacy issue. The government has no right to ask for a reason.
Having fun yet Allie? I understood that you were saying an anomaly does not mean a birth defect.
I believe that the other commenters took you as asserting that gay born babies are defects. But you only were contrasting gays as anomalies that should be accepted and not rejected as birth defects when/if doctors find them with amniocentesis.
Maybe it would help them to hear you say that if heterosexuals were in the 2% population group, then being a heterosexual baby should merely be called an anomaly, but it should never be called a birth defect.
Allie (4:31): "By now you should be insightful enough to know that my comments are sincere...."
Sincere? Oh! Well, in that case, it doesn't matter how disingenuous, illogical or inappropriate they are.
Carry on!
no tradguy, I was just pointing out how inconsistent it is to be pro-choice and anti-choice at the same time and how arbitrary her reasoning is; gay baby trumps choice.
X, well maybe they should, maybe we need an entirely new abortion law.
I don't want all abortions to be illegal, but I do think most people, liberals and conservatives alike, would want to see abortions for sex or sexual identity purposes be illegal.
I'm sure that the woman could just lie and say it was for another reason, I don't know what the answer is, very honestly.
But circling all the way back to my original comment, yes I am glad this woman had the choice to have this baby and I am glad that other women who find out they have a baby with severe deformities or illness can abort legally.
Ah Tradguy, I really should just not get sucked into abortion conversations, because my own ideas about abortion are "evolving", but my evolution is sincere. I honestly want the best option for the mother and the baby. I don't have the answers, I wish I did.
Thank you Ann. Simply beautiful.
For those not knowing Thousands of pills from China have been intercepted that contained a whitish powder. The powder turns out to be flesh, from a freeze dried human fetus. Their sold as a aphrodisiac, 'cause nothing gets a communist hornier than a pile of dead babies. And members of Zero's administration admire these ghouls.
Two points:
1) The pills were being sold in South Korea. Not exactly communist, there. More than 50% Christian, I believe.
The fact that they were made in China is damning, to be sure...but it was Chinese customs officials who discovered and stopped a shipment, bringing the whole thing to light...so that mitigates somewhat.
2) They were being sold as Medical Cure-Alls. Virtually indistinguishable from the liberal belief in fetal stem cells, and literally indistinguishable in effect.
AllieOop said...
But circling all the way back to my original comment, yes I am glad this woman had the choice to have this baby and I am glad that other women who find out they have a baby with severe deformities or illness can abort legally"
Again, what the hell does this mean? You are both a moron, and dishonest. This "choice to have" is moronic...it just allows you to temper the real message "can abort legally." You can't justify your position on abortion, so you keep doubling down on stupid. You don't want to overturn Roe v Wade, which allows abortion based on "privacy", but you want to limit abortion based on the "why." THis is why lefties prefer echo chambers, because no one peels away the layers of their positions to reveal the "moron" core.
"AllieOop said...
...I am glad that other women who find out they have a baby with severe deformities or illness can abort legally."
http://www.godvine.com/Girl-Voted-The-Ugliest-Woman-on-YouTube-Makes-a-Heartfelt-Video-1464.html
Curious George, I made a point of saying that I was glad that she had the choice to have the baby because we live in a country in which forced abortions are illegal, can't I be glad about that you jackass?
Who's going to sweep up the charred remains of AllieOop in the wake of this pitiable trouncing?
Palladian, l'm going to agree with you, I did get trounced and it was my fault because I entered into a discussion on abortion without really having a clear stance on it myself. As I said earlier, my views on abortion have been evolving and until I have them firmly cemented I shouldn't comment on them.
Most of what I was doing was trying to clarify myself and instead muddied the waters. Or maybe I'm being influenced by you conservatives and I need to go hang out with some liberals.
I want what is best for both baby and the mother and I say say this sincerely.
I was going to post how moving I thought the clip was very moving, especially the mom's facial expressions.
But I became more fascinated by the road kill Freeman left.
She-hit!
That was a great Mother's Day video. With technology going the way it is, maybe Christian will see it someday.
But he already knows the story, at least the important parts.
Road kill? Nah, run over a few times, but I'm still Alive, now leave me alone so I cn go lick my wounds.
How many of you big brave conservatives would ever admit to being trounced in a debate?
Excellent mea culpa, Allie.
I was once pro-choice, until I confronted the inconsistencies of it, and how it permitted all forms of horror.
People accuse each other of the worst motives when it comes to the abortion issue. They really do seem to believe the worst of each other.
This is one of the reasons this issue will never, ever, ever be resolved. One of many.
I encourage you to keep trying out your ideas, Allie, it's the best way of sharpening an argument.
Mine were flabby and weak and got sand kicked in their eyes until I enrolled in the Charles Althouse Blog. In just 15 posts a day, Althouse can change you from a 98 pound weakling to a real she-blogger.
About beauty and ugliness: It is true that even the most repulsive appearance becomes beautiful once we engage the person behind the mask. It is the soul within that we relate to, not the face. Is this not the moral of Beauty and the Beast? Does it not explain why so many beautiful celebrities have horrible lives? Because for so many of them, their beauty is only skin deep?
@AllieOop -- Jeremiah was a bullfrog. What of it?
Pete said,
"Allie Oop, though Althouse opposes abortion as a choice for her, she is staunchly pro-choice. I'm sure she'll correct me if I'm wrong about this."
Thanks Pete, then Althouse and I are in complete agreement.
I did get trounced and it was my fault because I entered into a discussion on abortion without really having a clear stance on it myself. As I said earlier, my views on abortion have been evolving and until I have them firmly cemented I shouldn't comment on them.
So which time did you tell the truth? Staunch or evolving?
I've told this story before, but I can say exactly when my feelings on abortion "evolved".
I used to be mildly pro-choice (first trimester, blah blah blah). Then, 18 weeks into our second pregnancy, we found out our baby had a "fetal abnormality" (later determined to be trisomy-18). A week later our little girl was dead. A week after that Blue Cross sends us to an abortion clinic to have it removed.
While I was sitting in the waiting room trying not to cry my eyes out I overhear a conversation between two girls who couldn't have been more than 19 years old. One was on her third abortion; the other, her second. To them it was of no more consequence than getting their hair done.
I've been solidly pro-life ever since.
That video made my cry. Very beautiful, thanks for sharing Althouse.
People accuse each other of the worst motives when it comes to the abortion issue. They really do seem to believe the worst of each other. (6:55)
Well, Harrogate, it has been my experience that the pro-life side accuses the pro-abortion side of a willingness to kill innocent unborn babies ("just fetuses" to them).
That said, there doesn't seem to be much point in speculating about the motives, although people seem to do it anyway.
Nathan Alexander, go back to the thread that comment came from. I recall saying even back then that my views on abortion were changing.
I probably won't come to the same conclusion many of you have, but my views I've held for many years, do need to be reviewed, because they don't feel right to me.
I doubt too many of you would be so honest.
"X said...
'The child is healthy, would not be in pain or suffering, why would abortion of a gay baby be permissible?'
Congrats folks. We finally found a baby that trumps a woman's right to choose. A gay baby. Or is Allie wanting to outlaw the abortion of any healthy fetus?"
Who is this mysterious Mr. X? I'm enraptured.
Nice work Allie. You have raised the level of civility in the comments and made it look easy.
Lawyer Mom, I will answer you sincerely, I don't know.
I fear what will happen if abortion is outlawed, how would it affect this society, would we be able to handle the thousands of unwanted babies? We've had this discussion before too and it just went around and around, with no answer, same as any abortion argument.
What if there was a National Referendum? Just throwing that out there.
"People accuse each other of the worst motives when it comes to the abortion issue. They really do seem to believe the worst of each other."
Should we examine that?
What do pro-life people accuse abortionists of? Sanger was certainly a racist, hoping the the "right sort" would get abortions so there would be fewer of them. Every now and then a pro-abortion person will say something similar, that it's better if poor, stupid, women have abortions than overwhelm the world with stupid children. But mostly isn't it, "You're killing a baby, a human who matters?" And maybe a pro-life person will say that the pro-abortion person insists that the pre-born aren't people yet for matters of convenience, and that if they thought about it they'd realize that an unborn baby, even a very new fetus, and possibly even an embryo have to count as human. But how many pro-lifers insist that pro-abortion people are LYING when they claim to believe that the fetus isn't a person?
But that's what pro-abortionists say about pro-lifers. They hate women. All that shit about babies is a lie because no one really thinks that. They just hate women. Hate them.
"This is one of the reasons this issue will never, ever, ever be resolved. One of many."
Given her ability to debate, AO is very luck she was not terminated as a mental defective.
This is your unfettered "choice" courtesy of Roe and the striking down of every sensible law that has attempted to take a middle-road on abortion. Seriously, people from certain South and East Asian cultures have been having sex-selection abortions for decades here in North America. It's all part of a "woman's right to choose". Even if the "woman" is the mother-in-law of the almost-was-a-mother. Or how about Amy Richards, a disgusting blight on humanity, and a hero of the NARAL-left?
"I looked at Peter and asked the doctor: ''Is it possible to get rid of one of them? Or two of them?'' The obstetrician wasn't an expert in selective reduction, but she knew that with a shot of potassium chloride you could eliminate one or more."
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/18/magazine/18LIVES.html?pagewanted=all
Thankyou once again Tradguy.
I guess it's hard being civil in discussions concerning life and death, innocent life.
Holdfast, can commenters here ever just stop debating and simply talk? All the rules for debate, the gotchas, the insults, can they ever just be put aside? Especially when discussing issues such as this?
The video was beautiful and touching. I was happy it generated so many comments until I saw what happened to the thread.
This probably belongs on a cafe post, but threads with many comments and flame throwing always seem to involve Allie. There's an Allison on Town Hall that ruined it for me there as well. I wonder if they're the same person. They have the same escalating tone and fish for angry replies.
WV canlyze apposage
word verification cracks me up!
Leaving aside the faulty comparison of being gay to a birth defect
In Alley's defense, gay rights advocates invite this comparison by saying that homosexuality is genetic.
We've had this discussion before. The science is really bad. There is no scientific support for it. Where is this gay gene? And even if you find it, gay people don't reproduce. And so gay people do not pass gay genes to children.
Straight people pass genes to their children. Thus the biological argument for homosexuality is akin to arguing that homosexuality is a genetic defect. "You have given birth to a child who will not reproduce."
I do not think this is true. I do not think there are gay babies. I think sexuality is dark and mysterious. We really don't know why people are gay.
Wyo Sis,
I have never been on Town Hall, I don't frequent any other political blog other than this one. I don't try to escalate any animosity on a thread. I speak honestly, that makes some folks mad, then they start flinging poo, then get mad and fling some back.
Then comes Wyo Sis, just when things settle down and starts the poo flinging once again.
Sigh.
first and last time I ever intend to deal with you Allie. You stepped too far over the line this time.
"I don't want all abortions to be illegal, but I do think most people, liberals and conservatives alike, would want to see abortions for sex or sexual identity purposes be illegal."
The usual list of exceptions is... life of the mother (more than the normal risk of it all going horribly wrong)... extreme distress of the mother (rape, not normal anxieties)... and if the baby is not viable and it would be better, healthier, to abort early.
And maybe abortions should be legal because of bad things associated with them being illegal and who can really know what a person's situation really is, but it always used to be "safe, legal, and rare."
Rare?
In a rational world a college student (or any other woman) would be ashamed if she got an abortion, not a proud wearer of a T-shirt, even if she didn't for a moment think that a fetus was a person, because it would be evidence that she wasn't in control of her own life.
And maybe those girls in the waiting room with Crunchy Frog should have gotten a mandatory contraceptive implant the first time around, if they were minors, and a mandatory sterilization if they were over 21.
That would end the "getting my hair done" level of seriousness.
Ms Oop,
Go look up the word "staunch".
And I suggest you stop being the one lowering the discourse before you complain about the lack of civility.
You are far too quick to try to shut people up with a variety of strategies. Assuming you are the sole possessor of the moral high ground (like you did in your very first post on this thread) and incessantly declaring yourself a victim are only two of your most common tactics.
Go re-read your hysterics when I tried to talk to you about military service, for example.
Another one of your problems is you are too willing to give yourself the benefit of the doubt you deny others. You always pretend to be the protagonist/hero and try to assign roles to others as only you see fit. Such arrogant assumption that your opinion is the only one that matters isn't really conducive to "just talking."
Good Wyo Sis, I won't miss you.
Synova, who would pay for those mandatory implants? Do Libertarians believe in mandates?
I don't think aborting a baby merely because it's the wrong sex or a baby that may be gay should be allowed.
Instead of jumping on Allie, we ought to congratulate her for abandoning the orthodox liberal view.
Baby steps!
She's right, unfettered choice is pretty damn ugly.
Nathan, why don't you find the thread and post a link, I'm not sure what you are alking about.
Ms Oop,
Self-awareness comes from self-examination.
Nathan, you may call me Allie. I am examining myself as we speak.
I wasn't being snarky, I just re read that.
I agree that it's essential to take stock of oneself once in a while and examine what one can no longer keep in good faith and then send it to the pile of rejected beliefs.
It's all about evolution:)
I'm glad sleepless nights posted. It needs to be said- disability is not a positive thing. It's awful for a lot of people. It's not just being misunderstood- it's real pain, real suffering. He gets it.
My son is relatively mildly disabled (my wife and I even more mildly), and it's still a psychic burden on the whole family. Parents of disabled children get divorced more often. They kill themselves more often. It's real shit.
So, is it better to simply end it all before it begins? No... because a lot of perfectly normal people cause endless suffering by choice, and we don't kill them, do we?
Life can SUCK, suck more than anyone really wants to admit. And it can be you, too, who's helpless and broken. If you live long enough it will be. We all pretend that disabled people are different, separate, but they really aren't. It's us in a different life, or us if we only survive a bit too long.
I've watched my father slowly die from cancer and cancer treatment. I had to sit in the hospital, sleepless, while he lost his mind from lack of oxygen.
I've seen my son fall further and further behind his peers at school. Now the other kids are old enough to have realized that there's something wrong with him. My son hasn't figured it out yet. When he does, that too will suck.
Life really is suffering. There's no real escape from that, and pretending that we can avoid the truth makes it worse.
My mother had a health scare and we thought she was going blind. Apparently she's not, and that's good. However, she's going to move closer to her family. That's what's important.
We don't have anyone but the people around us. There isn't anything else, really, but most of our lives we pretend that there is an infinite future ahead of us, full of possibilities. There are possibilities, but they aren't infinite. We're very limited creatures and we're all afraid of the dark.
"AllieOop said...
Curious George, I made a point of saying that I was glad that she had the choice to have the baby because we live in a country in which forced abortions are illegal, can't I be glad about that you jackass?
You never said that you moron. You are an idiot and a liar.
Curious George, you couldn't have figured out my meaning all on your own? It wasn't so hard to do if only you'd stop rolling on that damn ball.
This is done in India and China, now they haven't got enough females, plus it begins to be veer towards Eugenics.
That's not veering towards, that's already there.
"Synova, who would pay for those mandatory implants? Do Libertarians believe in mandates?"
Well, it's one of those "if I were king of the world" sort of things that would never happen.
As for believing in mandates... if the choice to get the abortion was freely made, why not? (Which is why I added the implant for minors.) The woman is not being forced to get the abortion and therefore is not being forced to get the implant or sterilization. It would be just a matter of the conditions that society attaches to the right to kill the unborn, (absent "self-defense" or medical necessity), which society has no *libertarian* based need to allow in any case.
(Libertarians disagree on the personhood of the unborn, but not the the general principle that you don't have the right to kill another person.)
If we assume she has a "right" to the abortion, then the condition would be a problem. But I'm starting from the assumption that she does not have a right to the abortion at all, but that there are social reasons to keep abortion legal (back alleys and coat-hangers, etc.,) and strong reasons to keep that legality while discouraging, as strongly as possible, the normalization of abortion as a trivial out-patient procedure.
I don't know if that hair-splitting will make any sense.
If abortion is a *right* then attaching a penalty to it is wrong.
If abortion is not a right, and society allows it but with a penalty attached, then the penalty is a whole different creature.
Not that it's a serious suggestion, as I said, I just keep thinking that it would solve the "rare" problem like a charm.
Allie Ooop
As for the abortion issue, as I said I'm glad she has a choice. I'm glad she chose the way she did, because she seems capable of raising this child in a loving home. Conversely a woman who knows that she could not accept a child with such issues doesn't deserve condemnation for he choice.
This is the quote from you that did not lead me to believe you were contrasting this mom's ability to choose with forced abortion.
I am pro-choice and disagree with Freeman on this, but I suggest anyone having trouble tolerating her should probably check themselves. She is one of the most calm, reasonable people on the internets.
Maybee, Freeman may be as you describe, but when she begins her comments by accusing another commenter of trollery, it's pretty much all downhill from there. I find that arrogant, dismissive and insulting. Calling other commenters trolls does nothing more than open the door to reciprocal incivilty.
"AllieOop said...
Curious George, you couldn't have figured out my meaning all on your own? It wasn't so hard to do if only you'd stop rolling on that damn ball."
Oh, bullshit. You're backfilling. That's all. You brought two pet things into a very nice story: homosexuality and abortion. I'm sure in the echo chamber that you occasionally leave to visit althouse neither would ever get challenged. But of course here they do, and you are exposed for the moron you are, and then the liar you are. "I said this" when challenged rapidly turns to "I meant this."
This intellectual vapidness and dishonesty is laced with condescending crap like "I think sometimes life presents you with opportunities to teach others about things they want to deny".
Someone who is all for Roe v Wade but then suggests abortions should be limited based on the underlying intentions is too stupid to teach anything.
But then when you got all tangled up because we get this "Ah Tradguy, I really should just not get sucked into abortion conversations, because my own ideas about abortion are "evolving", but my evolution is sincere."
Get sucked in? You brought it into the discussion. You wanted to teach us all.
Freeman is wrong. You are not a troll. You are just a typical lefty...a moron and a liar.
Someone above observed that Oop has positions without principles. I think even that gives her more credit than deserved. Oop is a conduit for a narrative that she doesn't understand but nonetheless tries to apply to any remotely connected subject. She is a fabulist and she doesn't really understand the narrative she wants to champion. So when she ends up making statements that are internal inconsistent, contradict comments she herself makes in other or even the same thread, and exposes her for a hypocrite, she trots out the wild appeals to imagined authority, or assumes the mantle of the victim.
She's no more than the same self-parody that Andy R, Love, or any of the other smug and superior asshats are. She's less in that she's way below the bar even they set for logical fallacies.
Plus, she's bores to death. For that alone I usually pass over her comments without note, but in some cases/threads like this one, she's hard to miss.
Thread totally hijacked.
Nicely done Allie.
B and George, you two come on almost any thread only to bash the liberal viewpoint with over the top rhetoric . Do either one of you ever really want to discuss any given issue or do you simply wait for blood in the water?
B, I find you revolting. You are dishonest, with your only purpose to attack your perceived " victim". I see this on thread after thread. B there is something very creepy about you. George is simply a jackass, but harmless.
Rusty, Althouse said she wanted us to is discuss a number of things, one was abortion, which WAS discussed. Or did you skip those comments to read only the " juicy" ones?
There are conservative commenters here that appear to be able to discuss and be able to get beyond simply trying to " kill" the opponent and seem genuinely interested in exchanging ideas, I'm glad they seem to outnumber you.
I want what is best for both baby and the mother and I say say this sincerely.
This encapsulates AO's central problem. She is essentially giving us an emotional discharge that has nothing to do with logic, ethics, or the law. It's "I want".
And the argument is intended to be all the more compelling because she means it 'sincerely'.
That's how the libruls roll. It's at the core of every prog position.
-Krumhorn
.....
Curious George, I made a point of saying that I was glad that she had the choice to have the baby because we live in a country in which forced abortions are illegal, can't I be glad about that you jackass?
Similarly stupid / redundant / useless / obvious statements:
- I'm glad it is against the law for my boss to torture me with an electric cattle prod for leaving a typo in that memo.
- I'm glad Obama can't legally incinerate my relatives like the Nazis did.
- I'm glad that there are no random executions on the in the town square.
- I'm glad I don't live in the Netherlands.
Seriously - AO actually thinks it is remarkable, and gratitude worthy, that this woman was not FORCED to abort her child? WTF - have we really fallen that far?
"holdfast said...
Curious George, I made a point of saying that I was glad that she had the choice to have the baby because we live in a country in which forced abortions are illegal, can't I be glad about that you jackass?
Similarly stupid / redundant / useless / obvious statements:
- I'm glad it is against the law for my boss to torture me with an electric cattle prod for leaving a typo in that memo.
- I'm glad Obama can't legally incinerate my relatives like the Nazis did.
- I'm glad that there are no random executions on the in the town square.
- I'm glad I don't live in the Netherlands.
Seriously - AO actually thinks it is remarkable, and gratitude worthy, that this woman was not FORCED to abort her child? WTF - have we really fallen that far?"
Actually I don't think she really ever meant this, because she nevr had said it before that post. But if she meant, yep, it's nothing. It's a false argument. The essense of Oop. Similar to bullshit.
Blogger AllieOop said...
Curious George, I made a point of saying that I was glad that she had the choice to have the baby because we live in a country in which forced abortions are illegal, can't I be glad about that you jackass?
5/10/12 6:30 PM
Yes, she is that stupid.
Revolting? I'm crushed.
BTW, Taffy Apple, I doubt I've posted in more than 5 or 6 threads in the last few months. I'll bet that you've commented more in this one thread than I have in that time span.
AllieOop said...
Beautiful, moving. She did the right thing for her and her baby, I'm glad she had a choice. Im sure she will love him unconditionally. And gay children deserve that same love and acceptance, because they too are born that way.
Bravo Allie. You just equated homosexuality with being a disability.
AllieOop said...
Do you for one minute think that Ann Althouse does not love her child as much as this woman?
Both conditions are birth anomalies. There are some anomalies that are not visable to the eye until later in a child's life.
Of course she loves her child as much is this woman, but that wasn't the issue was it. It was the choice that this woman made in the face of abortion to have this child with his condition and all. This isn't the about whether or not Ann Althouse would have aborted her child because she simply didn't know that her son was a homosexual, which isn't her fault and yet, you went out of your way to equate this childs disability as being on the same level as being a homosexual because he was born that way.
A condition that has no provable link to genetics as of to date. Believe me, the hunt for the gay gene is underway and you know what will happen when it's found and a genetic test to look for it is possible? You will see aborted homosexual human beings more than this child's chances of being aborted where. In effect, your wish will more or less render homosexuality extinct.
The only caveat to this is if government intervenes in stopping women from aborting their genetically tested homosexual in utero and that in and of itself would open up an entire can of worms I can't begin to imagine the political impact and follow-out from.
AllieOop said...
Thanks for clarifying Ann. My point in bringing up the gay issue was to point out that children are born, like this child, with conditions that are not their fault.
No you didn't. You wanted to inject and attach a homosexual narrative to a story that had nothing to do with it. Fairly simple, so stop lying please.
Meth,
I did not say homosexuality is a disability. It is a brain anomaly, read the research, educate yourself. You chastise me for saying children are born with this condition, yet you ignore the vile hateful comments made bt Althouse regulars regarding homosexuals. Many of you are nothing more than hateful ignorant uneducated homophobes.
And unbelievable hypocrites.
And B you are the most creepy of any poster here on Althouse, quit stalking me from thread to thread.
Apple Bottom, you're a fabulist. You convince yourself that whenever you are called on being nonsensical it makes you a victim. Now you're convinced you are being stalked.
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