"But pressure is the last thing that would make me want to 'join' a community... The massive backlash against me in the gay media and community only made me dig my 'closeted' heels in further."So, what do we learn from this? Possible lessons:
1. Although in the past, it was fear of negativity from heterosexuals that kept gay people in the closet, these days, a gay person might choose the closet because of the negativity of other gay people.
2. If a celebrity wants to write a successful book about himself, he needs to withhold at least one juicy piece of information. For Weir, this was that news — even though the only real news was that he's saying what he'd never said before.
3. Some people think of themselves as, above all, individuals, and when others think the most important thing is their membership in a particular group, they resist. They don't want to be defined by a single quality, especially when it's a quality that makes other people see them in terms of the group stereotype, and not personal uniqueness. There was a special playfulness to this notion in Weir's case, because he engaged in the very open "flamboyant" style that people think of as stereotypically gay.
4. Just because you're gay doesn't mean you like other gay people and want to join their team. Heterosexuals don't naturally love all the other heterosexuals. Gay men may need to look for their sexual partners in the pool of gay men,* but there's no reason why you have to like everyone in your category of potential sexual partners, and, indeed, it's a good idea to reject the vast majority of potential sexual partners. You only need one (at most). You're entitled to think that most of them are jerks.
5. Ice skating is not a team sport.
_________
*By the way, this is the pool of gay men:
Posts
95 comments:
MYOB, in other words. Good advice when you're talking about someone else's love life.
Jane Russell is so good in that movie.
Hurray for Lesson 3.
6. Who cares. Why is it incessantly about your gayness? Let's talk about someone else besides you for a change. The world needs to know your sexual orientation or preferences like a fish needs a bicycle.
He is stating what everyone else just thinks: activists are generally bullies and bores.
Every time I see a rep from CAIR or NOW or the NAACP speaking for their "community," I think, who elected you?
In other words, don't ask don't tell.
In the future, everyone will be gay for 15 minutes.
Or else.
Muslims excluded. NTTAWWT.
I am friends with two gay men, one of whom is my roommate. Even tho they hang out with other gay men (they both went to a college where about 30% of the male population is gay) they often mention how much they dislike hanging out with other gays. The primary friends that they trust are women.
Pogo,
I guess I have about 7 minutes left then.
How about we need to quit defining everyone by their sexual orientation, color of their skin, gender, ethnic origins, religion, etc? I guess this goes with reason 3.
Wasn't there some guy once who said something about judging people by the content of their character or something like that?
"Wasn't there some guy once who said something about judging people by the content of their character.....?"
Yeah, and see where that got him?
Victim and class balkanization is forever.
@SteveR:
Repeat as needed.
Results may vary.
@ SteveR: I think you can earn it back over time. So long as you haven't been watching too much Glee, that is.
Memo to gay men ... please, stop talking about it.
You're boring the living sh*t out of the rest of us.
STFU already.
Or possibly it is occurring to many gays that the rest of the world does not have any interest whatsoever in what they do in private and would prefer that what they do in private does not constitute their identity as humans.
@Anna:
I am friends with two gay men, one of whom is my roommate..
...
The primary friends that they trust are women..
Anna, they say that to all the Fag Hags. And then they laugh at you behind your back.
Memo to straight people, stop talking about it.
So straight people are allowed to talk about their wives and girl friends but gay people are supposed to STFU ?
Or possibly it is occurring to many gays that the rest of the world does not have any interest whatsoever in what they do in private and would prefer that what they do in private does not constitute their identity as humans.
In others words, stay in the fucking closet.
Calypso, I watch it for Lea Michele, so does that count towards my fiftenn?
So long as you haven't been watching too much Glee, that is.
I haven't watched lately. Of course, it hasn't been on.
"The primary friends that they trust are women."
Well, if you think about it that makes sense. Straight men like to hang out with other straight men - they can share experiences without the fear of sexual tension or drama. I would have to assume gay men hang out with women for the same reason.
I have never watched Glee or Logo and have never belong to any "gay" group. No gay blogs either or books or mags.
I even prefer straight porn.
I have never been to a gay pride parade.
Most my friends are straight women.
I don't feel comfortable being in a room full of gay men.
Glee!
Not a huge fan of Glee, but it's one of the more watchable shows my daughter wants me to sit through with her, and sometimes I will. Sue steals the show every time. (Thanks to my daughter I've also seen America's top model, say yes to the dress, that guy wedding planner, bridezillas, etc., etc.) I am glad she turned me onto Project Runway, though.
@StevenR: So long as you're not just thinking Lea would be a "primary friend you can trust", you're good.
@MM: Hulu it. (Also, DVD, BluRay, OnDemand, YouTube.) Welcome to the 21st century, Old Timer.
The reason some people are annoyed with gay celebrities who stay in the closet is that laws and minds would have never been changed if not for the brave folks who dared to be visible and risk arrest (same sex dancing was illegal in many states for example). So Weir gets the benefits without helping the general cause.
Calypso: My interest in Lea does not include the concept of friendship.
Who cares. Why is it incessantly about your gayness?
Don't you understand that the right of privacy gives gays a fundamental right to loudly and publicly shove people's sexuality in your face?
Society and government may not have a right to invade their bedroom, but damn it, they sure as hell have an absolute right to bring their bedoom out into public for everyone's mandated approval.
Being a lesbian only means I like sex with women, it doesn't mean I want or NEED to wear a rainbow pin or be a womyn or go to P-town to camp on the beach or own a Jeep and have tons of cats and dogs.
Based on my lesbian friends (admittedly a limited sample size, nevertheless) yeah, it pretty much does. Now go out there and blast some Melissa Etheridge/Indigo Girls!
Don't you understand that the right of privacy gives gays a fundamental right to loudly and publicly shove people's sexuality in your face?
Define shove ? Can I have a picture of my partner on my desk at work ? If someone asks me what I did last weekend can I say I went to a movie with my boy friend ?
Gay should pretty much be the default setting for male figure skaters and they should come out of the closet to declare themselves straight. Not that anyone would care about that.
In others words, stay in the fucking closet.
I think there can be a line between "the closet" and exhibitionism.
There's a difference between someone telling you about this great guy they met last weekend, and a gay pride parade. I think most straight people (at least the ones worth knowing) are find with the first, even if the second bothers them.
That being said, it should not be necessary that every gay person be as private as Jody Foster. Two men who choose to hold hands, or kiss each other in greeting should not be objectionable, unless you also find it objectionable when a man and woman do it (and if you object to either of those things you're a horrible prude).
How about we need to quit defining everyone by their sexual orientation, color of their skin, gender, ethnic origins, religion, etc?
NO! Rather than members of the military be simply soldiers, sailors, and Marines, it is far more preferable that we have gay soldiers and gay sailors and gay Marines. Their gayness is much more important than unit cohesion, much less the military mission.
Define shove?
Figure it out woof. What are we talking about here?
We're talking about some ice skater who wanted to keep his private life private, but gay thugs would not let him and shoved his sexuality into the public.
Every time I see a rep from CAIR or NOW or the NAACP speaking for their "community," I think, who elected you?
Whenever I hear someone lecturing a "community" based on something CAIR or NOW or the NAACP said, I think, "Wait, when did I say anything like that?"
There's a difference between someone telling you about this great guy they met last weekend, and a gay pride parade.
When I've marched, I've felt tremendously liberated. When you live in fear of being physically assaulted ( I was in college), or losing your job (security clearance), it's tremendously liberating.
As someone whose sexual orientation involves muzzling insteps and sucking toes, I must complain about the unfair way the foot fetish community is being portrayed since Rex Ryan, the Jets coach, was outed. Among foot fetishists, the wish to have your wife give foot jobs to strange men is relatively rare. Even so, I feel that the practice of this variant should be permitted without such unfair ridicule. And is it too much to demand that insurance companies such as AA cover toe jobs? Why are gays treated with such deference and foot fetishists with such contempt? There is something unjust about this.
I don't think anybody has actually made a comment on Johnny Weir, as opposed to general comments about being out or closeted.
I had never heard of him (I guess I don't follow the Olympics much). Watching the clip of him being interviewed, I thought he was awfully self-absorbed, but also awfully attractive. Years ago, I would have been turned off by his mannerisms. I used to feel really uncomfortable when I was with gay men who weren't sufficiently masculine, whatever that meant. But, it no longer bothers me.
wv: womit, What a German exchange student does after a night of bar hopping. (And why do the German students pronounce v as w? Is it a confusion caused by the fact that they learn English they have to unlearn pronouncing w as v?)
The reason some people are annoyed with gay celebrities who stay in the closet is that laws and minds would have never been changed if not for the brave folks who dared to be visible and risk arrest
Give me a break. Everyone knew Weir was gay. The critics didn't want him "out of the closet" ... they wanted him to be a gay activist.
It always astonishes me how gays can be so judgmental and demanding of high-profile people like Jodie Foster, Neil Patrick Harris, and Johnny Weir.
For a lot of gays, the instant *they* come out, they are immediately intolerant of any gay who hasn't yet.
I do think there is a need and a place for gay advocacy... but the current mean-spirited, rigid and extreme permutation needs to go.
When I've marched, I've felt tremendously liberated.
I don't think it's the marching so much that makes people uncomfortable... it's the people who march in S&M gear, etc. (much as it would if straight men & women went down the street in the same outfits).
Sadly, this is the first image that many people have when they hear "Gay Pride Parade."
@ paul a'barge
Who said anything about say? I see it in their lives. They hang out with other gay men and have fun but the people who they have known the longest and can depend on are women. Maybe the gay men you know are nasty assholes but your assumptions about my friends do not ring true.
I don't think it's the marching so much that makes people uncomfortable... it's the people who march in S&M gear, etc. (much as it would if straight men & women went down the street in the same outfits).
It makes me uncomfortable too. Including go go boys in skimpy outfits.
Maybe the gay men you know are nasty assholes but your assumptions about my friends do not ring true.
Hear, hear. I have known exactly one gay man who really seemed to dislike women. The rest, not at all.
It makes me uncomfortable too. Including go go boys in skimpy outfits.
Well, unfortunately, those clowns are doing a very effective job of misrepresenting Gay America. I believe the straight world is increasingly sympathetic and open to gay rights... but confused and turned off by such ridiculous (and to borrow a phrase that has popped up in this thread) "in your face" behavior.
I realize there are some people who are bigoted, and nothing's going to change that. But the exhibitionists and extremists are sabotaging the effort to win over everyone else.
@knox: Well let me quote paul a'barge here: "They say that to all the Fag Hags. And then they laugh at you behind your back."
Look's like the joke's on us.
But the exhibitionists and extremists are sabotaging the effort to win over everyone else.
All the more reason for average gay people to live open lives.
In regards to Johnny Weir, during the 2010 Olympics two Canadian broadcasters commented on Weir's flamboyant demeanor, made derogatory comments of his sexuality, and questioned his gender.
It was 2 presumably straight broadcaster who shoved his sexuality in your faces.
Look's like the joke's on us.
One of my dearest, closest friends in a women. Unfortunately, racism and sexism is just as prevalent in the gay as in the general population.
All the more reason for average gay people to live open lives.
I am sympathetic. But "coming out" is about the most personal decision any adult can make. I don't think anyone--anyone--has the right to dictate when someone else should make that decision! It is a choice that will differ greatly from individual to individual.
two Canadian broadcasters commented on Weir's flamboyant demeanor, made derogatory comments of his sexuality, and questioned his gender
Well, they're assholes! That's not Johnny Weir's fault!
@woof: Oh believe me, I have no illusions as to that regard.
I am sympathetic. But "coming out" is about the most personal decision any adult can make. I don't think anyone--anyone--has the right to dictate when someone else should make that decision! It is a choice that will differ greatly from individual to individual.
Agreed, the only exception is closeted politicians who are publicly hostile to gays
Maybe Weir isn't gay. Just weird.
@woof said:
"Unfortunately, racism and sexism is just as prevalent in the gay as in the general population."
But then adds:
"Agreed, the only exception is closeted politicians who are publicly hostile to gays"
And we're back full circle. You will dictate how someone else lives because, well, gay activists demand it.
Which is what Weir is complaining about, being bullied even though he is not a politician.
So sexism is OK as long as gay activists do it for a good reason.
And we're back full circle. You will dictate how someone else lives because, well, gay activists demand it.
If you're a closeted gay politician and you publicly advocate against gay people, you lose your right to privacy.
Oh, I I extend that to religious leaders as well.
"Oh, I I extend that to religious leaders as well."
And ice skaters.
And anyone that doesn't become an activist.
Won't out the gay unicorns, but only because they are mythical beasts.
But you're not promising anything.
"you lose your right to privacy."
Which means it's not a right.
Gay people do not believe in a right to privacy.
Does Pogo believe in a right to privacy ?
Again, if you advocate against gay people don't be sucking cocks, mmmkay ?
Woof, your earlier comment made it sound like you approved of those who were pressuring Weir to come out.
Woof, your earlier comment made it sound like you approved of those who were pressuring Weir to come out.
I don't approve but I understand the frustration. I long for the day where it's no big deal.
Of course he approves. He said he would out classes of folks who disagree with the activist approach.
For woof, the right to privacy exists only if he says so.
Pogo, don't put words in my mouth.
If you advocate against gay people and suck cock then you're fair game.
Hopefully, one day, there won't be a need for gay activists.
If it weren't for gay activists it would still be illegal for 2 men or 2 women to dance together.
"If you advocate against gay people and suck cock then you're fair game."
So the right to privacy depends entirely on adhering to woof's political demands.
Scratch a leftist, find a fascist. They don't really believe the human rights shit they proffer. It's just plain old power grabbing.
I was an activist in college. I would appear on panels for the Human Sexuality Class. This is how I ended up getting physically attacked.
Pogo, you never answered my question, do you believe in the right to privacy ?
And by right to privacy, I mean from the Government.
And don't I have a first amendment right to out a cock sucking homophobic politician ?
The you don't actually believe in such a right.
If the State cannot protect your right from having been violated, such as a right to life or a right to property, then the right does not exist.
You yourself have clearly shown you don't give shit about privacy, only about your own power.
Typical fascist.
"Pogo, you never answered my question, do you believe in the right to privacy?"
Doesn't much matter, does it, since woof and other activists determines who gets to exercise the right.
fascist - any person regarded as having right-wing authoritarian views.
Pogo, please explain how I'm a fascist by exercising my first amendment rights by exposing cock sucking homophobic politicians ?
I'm old enough that the etiquette guides of my childhood suggested that hetero-kissing and hand-holding in public was unseemly.
I guess I was hopelessly bourgeois from birth, but it has always seemed to me that if everyone behaved the way Emily Post hoped they would, people could have been gay, straight, or whatever and no one would have minded.
I was an activist in college. I would appear on panels for the Human Sexuality Class. This is how I ended up getting physically attacked.
Well, you do have a seriously annoying personality and a bad disposition. Plus, you want to be a martyr for something. What that is... search me.
Apparent, for screaming about other people sucking cock.
Pogo, please explain how I'm a fascist by exercising my first amendment rights by exposing cock sucking homophobic politicians ?
I would say your personality type runs more to the "fucking asshole" than the "fascist."
I'm surprised you don't get the shit beat out of you every day by total strangers who haven't got a clue whether you're straight or gay.
Dude, and I have an annoying personality and a bad disposition.
You sir are the poster child for that.
How many queers have you beaten up today ?
How many queers have you beaten up today ?
Well, I can only repeat myself...
I'm surprised you don't get the shit beat out of you every day by total strangers who haven't got a clue whether you're straight or gay.
Look, the gay male life leads one to getting beat up. Pick up dozens of gay men and sooner or later you'll find one who will kick the shit out of you.
As usual, you're blaming straight men for what gay men (and men who don't yet know they're gay) are doing to each other.
Next up, please tell me how it was really Ronald Reagan who caused tens of thousands of gay men to die of AIDS. You know the routine.
You are a sainted martyr, woof. Can you suck your own cock?
"Pogo, please explain how I'm a fascist"
You don't know what the word "fascist" actually means, so I won't waste any effort.
Just stick with the idea that you do not actually care about privacy or human rights, except as a means to advance your own agenda.
That makes you just another evil pusillanimous schmuck, among the multitude in history.
"We're talking about some ice skater who wanted to keep his private life private, but gay thugs would not let him and shoved his sexuality into the public."
We're talking about some 18 year old lance corporal who wanted to keep his private life private, but gay thugs would not let him and shoved his sexuality into the squadbay.
ShoutingThomas is suck a sweet sweet man, I tell ya.
He only looks for the good in people and only wishes them well.
How many cocks have you sucked today, mmm ?
What is it about this site that attracts so many hate filled people. Some one should do a study.
How many cocks have you sucked today, mmm ?
See, I told you, woof.
If you spend your life daring people to beat your head in (and that is apparently all you do), why are you surprised to find dents in your head?
Think about this for a while. It's too obvious for somebody with your mental defects to grasp easily.
"What is it about this site that attracts so many hate filled people. ?"
Your own reason for doing so would be helpful in starting the study.
What is it about this site that attracts so many hate filled people. Some one should do a study.
We hating haters love to hate.
In fact, woof, hating is the only thing we love to do.
If you spend your life daring people to beat your head in (and that is apparently all you do)
Really, I've never done anything of the sort. Are you threatening to beat my head, over the internet ?
You are truly a sad sad, angry man.
Your own reason for doing so would be helpful in starting the study.
Please provide an example of me being a hater.
Really, I've never done anything of the sort. Are you threatening to beat my head, over the internet ?
You are truly a sad sad, angry man.
Thanks for the laughs, woof. I'm really laughing my ass off over this one.
You're truly a complete cookie cutter model. The usual.
The funny thing is. Ask me how many pussies I've licked today and I wouldn't at all be offended. It's just not my thing. But ask a straight man how many cocks they've sucked, and they go all beserker.
The funny thing is. Ask me how many pussies I've licked today and I wouldn't at all be offended. It's just not my thing. But ask a straight man how many cocks they've sucked, and they go all beserker.
Most of us don't ask others either question.
Let's try once again to outline this process for you.
1. You insist on blaring out what you think about other people's sex lives in public.
2. ???
3. People want to kick you in the ass.
What do you suppose would be the proper fill-in for #2?
Spend the weekend thinking about it. It will take you at least that long to figure it out, if you can.
Which I doubt.
You'll have to figure it out on your own. I'm not telling. It's like the South Park underpants gnome thing.
1. You insist on blaring out what you think about other people's sex lives in public.
When did I do that ? In public ?
You're projecting.
When did I do that ? In public ?
You're projecting.
You see? You haven't got a clue.
I'd suggest you spend all weekend watching every episode of South Park, at least twice.
Otherwise, I don't think there's any hope.
Oh, you mean when I asked you how many cocks you've sucked today ?
I didn't realize it was such a sore subject for you.
I don't think anybody has actually made a comment on Johnny Weir...I had never heard of him
Now you have REALLY pissed off Johnny Weir.
From Wikipedia:
Weir has two pet chihuahuas named Bon-Bon and Vanya, and is a collector of Russian Cheburashka memorabilia.
He has an interest in fashion design and, in addition to designing some of his own skating costumes, has designed ice dancing costumes for Melissa Gregory and Denis Petukhov and show costumes for Oksana Baiul.
In 2010 a main-belt asteroid, discovered in 1995 by T. V. Kryachko, was officially named after the skater, at the suggestion of his Russian fans.
Off the ice, he has appeared in a fashion spread in BlackBook magazin (including a shot of him in a wrap-around mini skirt).
Junyo, that's my point. These activists claim to be speaking for you. Why don't you challenge them if they aren't representing you fairly?
The third lesson is the most important. Apparently, Maude agrees.
I wonder if woof will ever learn that totalitarianism is not the right wing in this country.
You only need one (at most).
What, no spit-roasting?
I wonder if woof will ever learn that totalitarianism is not the right wing in this country.
I think totalitarianism can come from either the extreme right or left.
Pogo, please explain how I'm a fascist by exercising my first amendment rights by exposing cock sucking homophobic politicians ?
I would say your personality type runs more to the "fucking asshole" than the "fascist."
I'm surprised you don't get the shit beat out of you every day by total strangers who haven't got a clue whether you're straight or gay.
I think woof is in the right here. Politicians are public figures and the things they say are in the public discourse. It's no different than any other type of political hypocrisy. Al Gore tells people we're going to die from global warming and then flies private jets. John Edwards decries poverty and goes home to his obnoxious mansion. Some social conservatives claim homosexuality is a sin and then go home to engage in some homosex.
If you're going to take a public stance on something, best make sure you're not a flat out hypocrite.
If people won't say if they are gay or not, they are.
"By the way, this is the pool of gay men:"
Ann, that particular pool of gay men would now be approximately 90 years old. So, I hope the pool is a little bigger than that. :)
... these days, a gay person might choose the closet because of the negativity of other gay people.
That would be either a naive reason or a stupid one. Opting to be closeted by its very nature means living with the constant risk of being outed - & gays do not unanimously sign a mutual oath of loyalty & secrecy.
To me, hiding a non-hetero lifestyle tacitly reinforces the too-slow-to-die fallacy that everything on the (very broad) erotic spectrum that's not all boy-girl all the time is inherently depraved, inferior or evil.
"I despise victims who respect their executioners."
(Jean-Paul Satre)
http://InstantMALE.com just for homo's
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