The NYT has an article about Eve Tushnet, the daughter of lefty lawprof Mark Tushnet. As a Yale student, she first attended a meeting of the conservative group "specifically to laugh at them, to see the zoo animals." Now, she advises individuals with a homosexual orientation to abstain from sex.
As the hundred or so daily readers of eve-tushnet.blogspot.com, and a larger audience for her magazine writing, know by now, Ms. Tushnet can seem a paradox: fervently Catholic, proudly gay, happily celibate. She does not see herself as disordered; she does not struggle to be straight, but she insists that her religion forbids her a sex life.That blog has been on my blogroll for a long time. Her father, now a Harvard lawprof, is one of the many former Wisconsin lawprofs who are out there at other law schools carrying on what people here like to think of as the Wisconsin tradition.
Her father, a nonobservant Jew, and her mother, a Unitarian, both belonged to progressive traditions, tolerant of her sexuality.Eve became a Catholic in her sophomore year at Yale.
[S]ince 2002 she has made a meager living through writing, computer programming and freelance research. She lives in the Dupont Circle neighborhood of downtown Washington and volunteers two hours a week at a Christian pregnancy-counseling center.ADDED: Queerty says:
Tushnet's website receives "hundreds" of visits per day — hardly enough to call her an influential blogger. But that reach comes through her scribblings for magazines like the National Review, titles that are apt to give space to people "on the inside" of gays advocating against them. Her writings are interesting, we'll give her that; ex-gays! sublimation vs. repression! And so is her story.... But she is a person with a platform who is out harming human beings with her instruction, and that's simply unacceptable.
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104 comments:
Do the Pet Shop Boys transmit sounds in a frequency level that only gays can here?
Do the Pet Shop Boys transmit sounds in a frequency level that only gays can hear? My bad.
This gal was most likely driven mad by tolerance.
Catholicism helped Evelyn Waugh see the light, I believe.
"specifically to laugh at them, to see the zoo animals."
I cannot read that without thinking of a couple of recent CT posts, here and here.
Yeah, it's revolting when the NYT finds tolerant people among conservatives and treats it as if it's a surprising exception to the norm.
one of my friends is an ex-ex-gay. He went through the fundamentalist Christian ex-gay movement, treating his homosexuality as if it was some kind of mortal sin; that his sexual desire should never be expressed. Then, he left that bunch, adding another "ex" to his label, finally acknowledging that his being gay was as much a gift from God as any other, and embracing it.
I hope Eve will learn to love herself for who she is.
Shameless Plug: If you're a gay Evangelical Christian, you should really check out Evangelicals Concerned.
"Now, she advises individuals with a homosexual orientation to abstain from sex."
I think this is going to work only for those with very low sex drives, no particular desire for intimate relationships or those for whom religious observance is more important than sex and/or intimacy.
I hope Eve will learn to love herself for who she is.
She has. Too bad that you will not accept her for who she is and think that she should be something else. Try being a little tolerant yourself.
I do not find the Pet Shop Boys annoying, their music is okay (although I can't imagine actually paying for one of their cds or geting a download for my ipod). I just find it interesting how many gays just love the Pet Shop Boys.
Then again, it is like going to old taverns in Hoboken, where ol' Blue Eyes' picture is usually displayed in a place of honor. It transcends the music.
"Now, she advises individuals with a homosexual orientation to abstain from sex."
Not exactly. Rather, she advises that chastity is for everyone and that we should all control our sexual desires rather than letting our desires control us.
I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but what exactly does it take to be a "celibate lesbian?" No kissing? No heavy-petting?
Seems like the term "celibate" is more clearly defined in the heterosexual world. But don't listen to me; I'm just a rube from northeast Arkansas....
Follow life where it leads you, and you never know where you'll end up. The only folks more surprised than Eve about where her life has taken her must be her parents.
Making ancient traditions work in the modern world takes a lot of single-minded effort. Interesting that her attempt to bring to life the spirituality of friendship she found in medieval texts hasn't had much success even in the Catholic community to which she belongs. I wonder if Andrew Sullivan once started down this road, until he decided that it didn't lead where he wanted to go.
I have worked with (as co-workers) a number of gay ex-priests. I asked one of these individuals as to how he reconciled his sexuality with his Catholic faith. He gave what I feel to be the best, most profound response to this question: "My faith and love of God is bigger than the Catholic church and its rules."
"Her father, a nonobservant Jew, and her mother, a Unitarian, both belonged to progressive traditions, tolerant of her sexuality."
In other words she grew up with no fixed moral standards or belief system.
She should go to McDonalds with her dad.
"She was drawn to the Catholics among them, who corrected her misimpression that the existence of sin 'means you are bad.' It means 'precisely the opposite,' they taught her. 'It means you have a chance to come back and repent and be saved,' she says."
would she have been attracted to this message if she didnt already think that something was wrong with her? i wonder why she believed this to be the case ...
Why can't celibacy be the true expression of one's sexuality? Why should celibacy be looked upon as some kind of mask for a deeper pathology? It looks like a comfortable and useful way of negotiating the various shoals of life. There are worse fates than celibacy.w
A little muff diving never hurt anyone. Give it a try Eve!
Why should celibacy be looked upon as some kind of mask for a deeper pathology?
Because the normal human monkey needs to get off as often as possible. Sex is like breathing. Anyone who abstains is either ill or abnormal.
More hot, sweaty monkey sex!
I think what frightens progressive sex bunnies about Ms. Tushnet even more than her religion is her celibacy. Imagine that, a woman choosing not to have sex. It's almost like she is saying "I don't have to do what other people want me to do." Heresy!
Oh -- and there's a strain of misogyny in the fear of celibacy too. Women who won't have sex -- even lesbian sex -- are symbolically rejecting men. (Lesbians are tolerated because men don't take lesbian desire seriously -- they just think she hasn't met "the right man" yet.) Men who won't have sex are symbolically rejecting the primitive ideal of what it means to be a man, which threatens other men's ideal of themselves. (This is why heterosexual men have traditionally reacted with disgust and anger to homosexual sex. Men are supposed to fuck women, not be fucked like women.)
And yet, there is also the attraction to a sex-free life... free from the constant craving, free to be on your own... Confused and angered, the frightened male strikes out at the celibate, saying "there's something wrong with you!" Men, why are you so afraid of people who are in control of their desires? Does it make you feel inadequate?
I can do this all day.
With a name like Eve Tushnet, she really ought to be in porn.
"Why can't celibacy be the true expression of one's sexuality?"
If that's what a person wants, then fine. But I wouldn't praise someone who chooses that or criticize someone who doesn't, they're just different lifestyle choices.
Her explanation of the Catholic teaching is the best expressed view I have heard of the Christian view of moral law. The view is that sin is identified for us by the scriptures not for the purpose of leaving us condemned at all. It is to bring us to grace and forgiveness freely given to us thru the sacrifice on the cross of Jesus and his resurrection that proved our acceptance in that sacrifice. This is available as many times as we need it and ask for it. Then because we know that He first loved us, we can risk freely giving love and mercy to others. One example is that such manifest human love and acceptance can be felt in a Catholic Hospital compared to others.
"harming human beings with her instruction"
i'm not sure too many people are really going to take 'instruction' from some random 30 year old blogger. she's just one more voice in the mix.
i'm just a tad interested to know more about her gay identity, and why she's so willing to accept that it be down graded by catholic teaching.... but i'm not interested enough to go find out by reading her blog !
in this brief NYT piece, seems to me like she could have never really accepted her sexuality as OK, and therefore this community and this expression of faith that she has chosen fit that narrative ...
Lesbians are tolerated because men don't take lesbian desire seriously -- they just think she hasn't met "the right man" yet.
Andrea, you're so full of shit.
The "gays have been persecuted in the U.S. just like blacks" is a lie.
Go ahead and pretend if it makes you feel good. Hell, everybody else is.
Lesbians are tolerated because men don't take lesbian desire seriously -- they just think she hasn't met "the right man" yet.
Who told you this--the monkeys flying out of your butt?
This is why heterosexual men have traditionally reacted with disgust and anger to homosexual sex. Men are supposed to fuck women, not be fucked like women.
Andrea, these are just bullshit opinions of yours.
Where did you get this shit? Women's studies courses in some dipshit college?
Andrea, you're so full of shit.
The "gays have been persecuted in the U.S. just like blacks" is a lie.
Just because Andrea is full of shit, doesn't mean you aren't too.
What on earth makes you think gays haven't (and continue to be) persecuted in this country?
Ever hear of Matthew Shepard?
I agree with michael farris. If she is abstaining from sex because she prefers life that way (for any number of possible reasons), then fine. Good for her.
But if she is abstaining from sex because someone decided that sex should be limited only to (1) two people (not one or three)(2) who have participated in a ceremony that is (3) available only to people who adhere to certain restrictions that still other people have set down, then that is too bad and is nothing to celebrate.
All those people telling her how, why and when to have sex should mind their own business and she should have more respect for herself then to let these other people decide such fundamental facts about her personal life.
Nothing brings out more stupid shit than all this crappy whining about homosexuals.
Why, oh why, is this supposed to be so stimulating and interesting?
This is one of those generational delusions.
The young always believe that Mom and Dad didn't really have sex, go to the orgy, or make fools of themselves in public. Mom and Dad couldn't have done that!! Only the young really have sex!!
Likewise, every generation of kids thinks that it discovered tolerance for gays.
What a pantload of bullshit this discussion always is.
Let me try to clear this up:
1. People have been screwing in every conceivable way for thousands of years.
2. Your parent were once young and stupid, and they did the same stupid things you're doing.
3. At least here in the U.S., nobody was beating up on gays when your parents were teenagers. In fact, your parent were acting like assholes and insulting your grandparents by claiming that your grandparents weren't sophisticated enough to be tolerant of homosexuals.
This is the stuff of farce.
Ever hear of Matthew Shepard?
The martyrdom shit is the standard fare of every political movement.
At the same time that Shepard died, two homosexual men in Arkansas kidnapped and sexually tortured a teenage boy to death.
This did not interest the press.
This entire comment thread is a load of crap.
People of every classifications you can imagine kill people of those of other classifications. Gays kill straights. Straights kill gays.
Cut the shit.
Gay men, in particular, do have reason to fear sexual violence.
The lifestyle of gay men in the major cities... anonymous sex with hundreds of pickup partners... is a constant invitation to violence.
And the violence is most likely to come from... other gay men.
Jesus, Freder, this propaganda is old bullshit.
You aren't particularly bright.
Batter up!
Nothing brings out the idiots like this shit!
Cough up the idiot propaganda, morons!
Bonus points for sanctimonious outrage!
Bring it on!
Ah, here's shoutingthomas again, begging us to pile on top of him. My dear, you do have an insatiable appetite for roughhousing with the lads, don't you?
As for the Tushnets, crazy leftist parents spawn crazy reactionary children. And vice-versa (so to speak). The moral to this story is to be moderate in all things, whether it be "tolerance" or abstinence. If she's happy with her lifestyle, then fine for her. If we disagree with her promotion of her lifestyle, then we speak freely against it. What's the problem?
Or to put it another way, to live a happy life, strive to be neither shoutingthomas nor Freder Frederson.
Ah, here's shoutingthomas again, begging us to pile on top of him. My dear, you do have an insatiable appetite for roughhousing with the lads, don't you?
Two hundred bullshit Rhetoric 101 credits to Palladian for being the first to evoke the ever popular "if you say anything truthful about homosexuals, you're a queer" trope.
Palladian is a virtual storehouse of the wisdom of Freshman college keg parties.
They don't come any dumber, or more predictable, than you, Pal.
"They don't come any dumber, or more predictable, than you, Pal."
Talking to the mirror again?
Keg parties?
My dear, I don't go to any party without the promise of at least a good single-malt.
I mean, if it has to be beer, I'd attend for some Chimay, but I don't think they sell it in kegs.
You're a very dull person, Pal.
The usual.
Shouting Thomas said...
Freder Frederson said...
Awesome -- I've pissed off both sides! My work here is done.
By the way, I think it's hysterical the way threatened lefties here are acting as if Eve Tushnet is some sort of rightwing conservative Republican. Despite the fact that she's written articles for National Review, she always struck me as leaning more left than right, politically at least. Then again, I guess that's too nuanced for people who think I was propagandizing either in favor of promoting sexuality or... well, I can't quite figure out what Freder's problem with me is.
wv: "barba" -- beard! No, really!
Andrea,
Your Mommy and Daddy fucked.
They did all the stupid sex things you are doing.
Gays were around when your Mommy and Daddy were teenagers.
Your Mommy and Daddy like to put on airs about how tolerant they were of gays.
Your Grandmommy and Grandaddy sat there and listened to your Mommy and Daddy and wondered why they were carrying on like fucking idiots.
Now, go play in the bathtub with your rubber ducky.
i'm just a tad interested to know more about her gay identity, and why she's so willing to accept that it be down graded by catholic teaching.... but i'm not interested enough to go find out by reading her blog !
danielle, you have offered an excellent summary of yourself: willing to spend time pontificating on a subject, but not willing to spend time learning any facts which might disturb your preconceived notions.
Seriously, taking her seriously, crazy.
Vicki
I for one am ever tolerant of more conservatives practicing celibacy.
ADDED: Queerty is nothing more than an anti-Catholic bigot.
The fact of diversity is a strength, imo. The fact that we don't all agree and we won't all agree is a gift, imo. Difference gives us the opportunity for expansion and depth.
That this young woman chooses celibacy is interesting. She may change her mind - 30 is young :-) But there are plenty of people who are not interested in sexual relations.
Some of us were taught that there was but one way to *be* and that was a disservice, imo. Everything is changing now - hurray for that :-)
Mark Tushnet, while visiting at Texas Law School in 1977-1978, was my freshlaw civil procedure professor, and I was also involved in helping edit some of the work he published in the Texas Law Review. He was obviously a hard-core Leftie -- an out-of-the closet Marxist was fairly conspicuous even then -- but I never found him to be close-minded or self-righteous. I'm not surprised that he has an interesting, "complicated" daughter, and I wish them both well (even though I still profoundly disagree with much of his legal writing).
Shouty thomas, you're a disappointment. You're nothing but a cussing little boy who is afraid of women and gays.
You're pathetic. I'm adding you to the list of people whose comments I scroll past. Alpha Liberal, garage mahal, Jeremy, et al, make room for Shooting Tommy!
Oh wait -- I just had a thought... Shouting Thomas... Helen Thomas...
Oh my God!
Anybody got any garlic?
Shouty thomas, you're a disappointment. You're nothing but a cussing little boy who is afraid of women and gays.
God help us, will an idea ever appear here that wasn't part of Freshman Diversity indoctrination?
You are banal and predictable, Andrea.
Someday, you'll grow up and the kids will do the same thing to you that you're currently doing to the grownups.
You'll look at them and wonder:
"How can they be so fucking stupid that they think they invented this shit?"
"She was drawn to the Catholics among them, who corrected her misimpression that the existence of sin 'means you are bad.' It means 'precisely the opposite,' they taught her. 'It means you have a chance to come back and repent and be saved,' she says."
It's surprising to me that she didn't hear of that concept until she was in college. If she had, her religious and cultural path might have been very different. A little bit of the vicar keeps away the wicca, and other forms of overly fervent religiosity.
ST to Andrea: God help us, will an idea ever appear here that wasn't part of Freshman Diversity indoctrination?
You are banal and predictable, Andrea.
So, Andrea, erstwhile irascible reactionary and scourge of pious liberals and right-thinkers everywhere, when did you, er, convert and go all PC on us?
Of such misunderstandings great farces are made: "Andrea, via the misapprehension of some PC git in HR, gets hired to run the required freshman diversitoid indoctrination seesions at Local U. Hilarity ensues. Or, more likely, bloodshed."
Oh wait -- I just read that S. Thomas claims my parents did sexins. NO THEY DID NOT. EW! HOW DARE YOU IMPLY MY PARENTS DID NASTY THINGS! ONLY DIRTY PEOPLE HAVE SEX!
Heh heh heh.
I'm not sure if ST's problem with me is because he thinks I'm a libertine lesbian leftist or because he thinks I'm an uptight reactionary prude. (Just to help him out, it's the latter.)
I hate it when the NYT writes about Catholics. How about this gem:
She loves eating the flesh and blood of Christ in the Eucharist, which she believes is a carnivorous meal, not a metaphor.
It's true, Catholics believe in transubstantiation! Was this particular wording really necessary? I can hear the snide tone: "Can you believe that she doesn't realize it's just a metaphor?"
Dear NYT et al:
Jesus wasn't kidding when He talked about eating His body and drinking His blood.
Sincerely,
The Catholic Church
---
As for Ms. Tushnet, she has created a life for herself which gives her much joy. Good for her!
I'm not sure if ST's problem with me is because he thinks I'm a libertine lesbian leftist or because he thinks I'm an uptight reactionary prude. (Just to help him out, it's the latter.)
I haven't been thinking about what you are, Andrea.
Let's see if you are capable of putting two and two together.
I lived in San Francisco for almost a decade. I lived in Greenwich Village for two decades.
I've buried two wives and raised two daughters.
I've had a little country home in Woodstock for over 30 years.
I went to so many funerals of gay male friends that I eventually gave up and stopped going to funerals unless they involved an immediate, close relative.
There is a house in New Orleans
They call it the Rising Sun
And it's been the ruin of many a poor boy
And, Lord, I know, I was one
I know I meant not to read ST's comments any more, but just like you can't stop staring at a train wreck full of naked hippies, I just can't look away.
That being said, can someone translate his last comment for me? It seems to be in English, but it doesn't make any sense.
That being said, can someone translate his last comment for me? It seems to be in English, but it doesn't make any sense.
You see, Andrea, that's the problem.
Age and experience don't make any sense to the kids.
Think about it for a while.
You've almost got it. Give it another 30 years.
Woodstock... two wives... San Francisco...
Oh now I see. You ate the brown acid. They warned you about that, man.
Buried two wives? Were they dead? And if not, why didn't I think of that - damn sight cheaper than divorce.
... a train wreck full of naked hippies ...
If they're naked, how do you identify them as hippies?
BO?
ST:
You are full of it. Kids today are much more comfortable with the gay and racials than their boomer parents. You are correct that many of the same themes play over and over for each generation. It is a funky spiral heading in new directions, not an endlessly repeating circle-jerk.
Andrea, FYI: Men are not bent about lesbians because they can readily see the attraction and are turned on by porn where men are not in the picture. Men don't like the pushy lesbians who think they are men-like, but are bitches non-the-less who would be otherwise punched in the mouth if they were, in fact, men.
Straight men are more uncomfortable with man-gays for many reasons, including but not limited to:
the repressed fear of the gay-straight continuum (as opposed to the concept of a bright-line switch)
girly-men (not all gays, btw) are offensive to men
Men see plenty of stinking hairy assholes in the showers, therefore the thought of getting down with that is sickening.
Chicks dig gay men and want straight men to be more gay
Gay men tend to be more fit and well dressed
Patchouli reek.
Howard said "..."
Another one who didn't get it. Don't make me break out the emoticons. You wouldn't like me when I break out the emoticons.
>:[
I hate it when the NYT writes about Catholics. How about this gem
The malicious hatred and ignorance of the New York Times knows no bounds.
Hey Andrea, tell it to your cat, I'm sure it will care about your emoticons.
If they're naked, how do you identify them as hippies?
Hair.Hairy high and low. My hair like Jesus wore it, Hallelujah I adore it!
I'm being facetious...don't get upset.
@ Andrea: I remember the first time it really dawned on my that MY PARENTS.... also had sex and that they probably enjoyed it....a lot.
Without getting too graphic about it....it really spoiled the moment for me.
This aha moment also explained their eagerness to let my brother and I go to the Saturday matinee at the movies every Saturday. Three hours at least where we were entertained by bad movies Rodan, Godzilla etc and they were probably pretty entertained as well.
WOAH!!!
Self-hating? Evidence? She's Catholic. Her celibacy is no different than, say, a lifelong single heterosexual Catholic who adheres to Church teaching. Or even, say, a nun or priest.
She's Catholic, and she follows Church teaching. It's really not that strange.
It is strange though that people seem so shocked that she would put her religious beliefs before her sex life.
Freeman: don't you understand, celibacy is wrong. Having as much sex as possible is the new sacrament. And you're not supposed to let things like age, being unmarried, lack of conventional good looks, taste, dignity, or discrimination get in the way. In fact, you're supposed to turn all the old notions of what those things meant on their heads and try to make "seven seconds of squelching noise" (cf. Johnny Rotten) into something dignified and worthy of public display, or at least telling all and sundry about. In fact, the older and uglier you are (say, you're Sarah Jessica Parker) the more you're expected to rut like a monkey in heat, and then to brag about it the next day.
I thought the Seventies with their swing parties and discoes and greasy haired guys with gold chains and polyester leisure suits and "Hey baby what's your sign" were bad enough. Now it seems to me a time of pristine innocence compaired to the Skanky Noughties.
Howard: you're kind of dense, aren't you?
wv: lable -- as in, the new advertising, using a certain body part which used to be hidden from view but which under the New Skin Laws will be on display during the hours of 7am to 7pm Tuesday through Sunday (Mondays off because that's when the restaurants are usually closed).
In the Catholic Church, the definition of celibacy is "unmarried." Celibacy has only recently acquired the new meaning of "abstaining from sex." Probably because there are now so many people who are celibate, but not chaste.
Which is why I have a good chuckle when Lady Gaga says that she is being celibate right now, as if she were sometimes married, and sometimes not.
At any rate, Eve will remain celibate, and is practicing chastity, as all single Catholics are supposed to be.
Ya know, this is in the NY times, so perhaps they're ok with this kind of thing because of the heroic and conservative path blazed by muscle glutes...
That way they can still keep their gay street cred and openly acknowledge the depth of Christianity...
...kind of like the worming around that Pelosi is doing.
But not really conservative financially, nor socially, nor anything to question the Wisdom of the Current Lot In Power.
Andrea is just damn hilarious.
That's the way it's done.
How could I miss this choice comment from Howard?
"Men see plenty of stinking hairy assholes in the showers, therefore the thought of getting down with that is sickening."
Well, now that we know what goes on in Howard's shower... you know, I think we've passed TMI here and gone straight into CANNOT UNSEE.
Andrea: I think (can I say this?) that you have nailed some things on the head here. I agree with your comment about most men and lesbians (Lesbians are tolerated because men don't take lesbian desire seriously -- they just think she hasn't met "the right man" yet.) Or, as some men would say, "They haven't met the right vibrator yet." Gag. What egotist. And again I would agree (This is why heterosexual men have traditionally reacted with disgust and anger to homosexual sex. Men are supposed to fuck women, not be fucked like women.)
However, the discussion shouldn't be necessarily about celibacy but about chastity. People who take vows to never have sex are celibate. Those who refrain from sex, but who would be willing once married are chaste. Once upon a time, being chaste was the expected norm, not an oddity.
One of the reasons that there have been very few studies on the sexual behaviors of older people is that researchers didn't want to think about their parents or grandparents having sex. This is well documented. Yuck, they did what? Think of all the children who are traumatized by accidentally walking in on their parents doing the nasty.
And yes, I can do it all day and all night.
Andrea, where have you been all my life? (That's a rhetorical question, and silence would be an acceptable answer.)
chaste
–adjective,chast•er, chast•est.
1. refraining from sexual intercourse that is regarded as contrary to morality or religion; virtuous.
2. virgin.
3. not engaging in sexual relations; celibate.
4. free from obscenity; decent: chaste conversation.
5. undefiled or stainless: chaste, white snow.
6. pure in style; not excessively ornamented; simple.
7. Obsolete. unmarried.
Matthew Shepard was a victim. The perpetrators had been on a three day methamphetamine trip, and were seriously messed up. They mentioned his sexuality hoping to garner sympathy, as in, 'we only killed that guy because he was gay and he came on to us.' These were stupid criminals. That was tangential to their criminal behavior. Nonetheless, drinking in moderation in public places is a very good idea, as it lowers your chances of becoming a victim of someone elses crime spree. What was that line from "Hangover"? "I tend to do stupid stuff when I'm fucked up."
Since all crimes of violence are inspired by hate, isn't the term "hate crime" redundant?
tim maguire said...
"But if she is abstaining from sex because someone decided that sex should be limited only to (1) two people (not one or three)(2) who have participated in a ceremony that is (3) available only to people who adhere to certain restrictions that still other people have set down, then that is too bad and is nothing to celebrate."
What if God said it? Would you still say "All those people [God] telling her how, why and when to have sex should mind their own business and she should have more respect for herself then to let these other people decide such fundamental facts about her personal life."
God is a busybody for telling his creatures how best to live?
ALP said...
'I have worked with (as co-workers) a number of gay ex-priests. I asked one of these individuals as to how he reconciled his sexuality with his Catholic faith. He gave what I feel to be the best, most profound response to this question: "My faith and love of God is bigger than the Catholic church and its rules."'
That's profound? It boils down to the pronoun "me."
The Catholic Church was founded by Christ and teaches with his authority. I know many don't believe that, but Catholic priests do. So it's not the Church's rules, but the teaching of Christ.
And these guys' ideas are "bigger" than that? Good luck with that.
But she is a person with a platform who is out harming human beings with her instruction, and that's simply unacceptable.
Wonder what his position on abortion is? Partial birth abortion?
Education middle schoolers on the wide variety of sexual activities?
Teaching kids about birth control so, as a family therapist assured us, that would take care of any problems the high school girl would have with a boyfriend bartender 10 years older with an assortment of fringe misdemeanors and an outstaniding warrant for domestic violence in another state.
Lefty self righteousness is not good for children or other living creatures.
"My faith and love of God is bigger than the Catholic church and its rules."'
That's profound? It boils down to the pronoun "me."
I, too, was struck by the self-centered, me-first nature of that response. A similar thing was said by the man and the woman as they were munching on the fruit in the Garden.
As for human sexuality, the Church recognizes and teaches that God does not impose any harsh rules on us. God created sex, so sex is a "good" thing. But like all things, it is a "good" only insofar as it is consistent with truth, that is to the extent it is consistent with the truth of the human person, made male and female, as a being made by and for love. And not just any love, but a "spousal" type of love that exists in a loving communion of persons. That is, sex is a moral good when it is consistent with this truth and love, and it is a moral wrong when it is contrary to truth and love.
All that God and the Church do is call each of us to that truth and love, to be the people that He made us to be, not the fallen people we have made ourselves to be, including the spousal nature that is incorporated into our very being, including our very bodies, male and female.
In our sexuality specifically, we are called, by God, the Church, and our natures, to a "spousal" relationship that is both unitive and fruitful, neither of which is possible, as a matter of truth of the human person, when the sexual conduct is between persons of the same sex or unmarried persons.
The Church does not teach that sex is a bad thing. The Church teaches that sex is a GREAT thing. So great, in fact, that it should not be degraded and distorted, and we should not accept something less than that greatness. We should not accept the counterfeit and superficial over the real thing.
Shorter Eve Tushnet:
1. This is what I believe.
2. According to my beliefs, this is what I must do.
3. This is what I will do.
I don't understand why people are hating on her. As far as I am concerned, she is as close to sainthood as you are likely to see among bloggers. Determination in the face of pain and fear is usually considered heroic; but have it your way.
Mitch, you left out
4. If you gay or lesbian, this is what you ought to do, too.
Alex,
"Because the normal human monkey needs to get off as often as possible. Sex is like breathing. Anyone who abstains is either ill or abnormal."
So we're back to being mere monkeys are we? Thanks for clearing that up:
I was wondering where my desire to fling my shit at you came from,...
Andrea,
"there's a strain of misogyny in the fear of celibacy too. Women who won't have sex -- even lesbian sex -- are symbolically rejecting men. (Lesbians are tolerated because men don't take lesbian desire seriously -- they just think she hasn't met "the right man" yet.) Men who won't have sex are symbolically rejecting the primitive ideal of what it means to be a man, which threatens other men's ideal of themselves. (This is why heterosexual men have traditionally reacted with disgust and anger to homosexual sex. Men are supposed to fuck women, not be fucked like women.)
And yet, there is also the attraction to a sex-free life... free from the constant craving, free to be on your own... Confused and angered, the frightened male strikes out at the celibate, saying "there's something wrong with you!" Men, why are you so afraid of people who are in control of their desires? Does it make you feel inadequate?
I can do this all day."
What? Spout so much hogwash that no one can possibly deny you're a pop psychology idiot?
Yea, I guess you can.
Freder Frederson,
"What on earth makes you think gays haven't (and continue to be) persecuted in this country?"
And have you ever considered Matthew Shepard might have been an asshole? Harvey Milk was, and look what you've made of him.
The gay community worships symbols, and the symbols they prefer are lies.
All is NewAge.
Excuse me, waiter, I'll have the gay monkey sex with a side of NewAge lies, please.
I'm trying to feed the world.
Alex said... Sex is like breathing.
Really? You DIE if you don't have sex?
Anyone who abstains is either ill or abnormal.
Let him who is without sin etc.
And have you ever considered Matthew Shepard might have been an asshole?
And in your world, assholes deserve to be beat to death? Nice to know.
At the same time that Shepard died, two homosexual men in Arkansas kidnapped and sexually tortured a teenage boy to death.
Unfortunately, sexually based crimes occur all the time--heck there was an entire Law and Order franchise based on that premise. They involve straights, gays, and all kinds of people in between. Some people even manage to kill themselves masturbating (e.g., David Carradine).
The difference with Matthew Shepard was he was killed because he was gay.
Andrea is actually partially right.
Regarding "Lesbians are tolerated because men don't take lesbian desire seriously -- they just think she hasn't met "the right man" yet."
On a deep level I think that's actually true about men (myself included) -- at least wrt the attractive lesbians ;) It's sort of a deep seated masculine ego thing, hence the appeal of lesbian or female bi porn filmed for straight men (which I know is not the same as porn lesbians do for themselves). Men apparently enjoy seeing two women going at it more than women enjoy watching two men -- the guys can more readily imagine themselves in the middle.
I also think she's right about the greater distaste of men for male homosexuality (than women for women's) in terms of evolved behaviors/tendencies -- again at a deeper level, wrt reproduction, success for a woman is having babies whereas success for a man is getting a woman (who can have the offspring for him).
Situational homosexuality for men is absolutely tied to lack of women, or no access to them (prison, long voyages by ship, young muslim men in strict societies, etc). It is distasteful because it is *shameful*, representing a failure as a man (further compounded by the inferiority issue of not being the 'top' --again see prison).
IOW a general distaste/disgust by straight men (which does not have to mean persecution of gays) is *not* simply the caricatured 'hateful' or 'phobic' result of Judaeo-Christian patriarchy, but rather is AT LEAST every bit as 'natural' as the desire of gays to do their thing presumably is.
Freder Frederson,
"In your world, assholes deserve to be beat to death? Nice to know."
Damn, children DO say the darndest things! I've inspired another major leap o' illogic by an Althouse reader. That's three times in two days!
My point, pea-brain, is that assholes DO get beat to death. And then twisted into icons, that the rest of us are supposed to fall down and worship at the mere mention of their name.
Tell me, Freder, did you know about Harvey Milk's assholishness? How do you feel about his false-image being foisted on us these days? Doing anything about it, or just enjoying the sizzle?
Yea, considering all that's been done to deceive the rest of us about how 900 blacks died - and make a hero of their exploiters - please, give me another lecture on the gay community's notorious "compassion" again.
I swear, the bullshit never stops.
>>> a platform who is out harming human beings with her instruction, and that's simply unacceptable
Here's something that harms the gay community a million-fold times what bloggers like Eve do, and its something completely in their ability to control: Gay Pride Parades.
You want to be treated "the same" as everyone else in society and then annually flip off everyone else with these freakshows (and that's what they are).
And I say that as someone who supports the gay community.
Crack, I'm surprised -- I didn't think you bought into the "Sex as much as possible as often as possible" cult that rules the culture. Because it is a cult, and any man or woman who opts out of it -- for whatever reason, be it religious or just exhaustion and the desire to be alone and in control of their own desires for once -- is branded a heretic.
Think really hard about it. Think about all those men in sexual thrall to crazy, damaged and damaging women. Isn't part of the problem the fact that no matter what these women do to their men the men can't let them go because then they fear they'd never have sex again? Wouldn't it be a relief to not have that desire ruling your life and making you miserable? I understand men with their much higher sex drives than women have trouble with this, but it can be done.
(I'm being serious for once. Celibacy, chastity -- it's good for your mental health.)
Andrea,
You're misreading me:
I'm not endorsing it, nor am I part of it: I haven't had, nor have I attempted to have, sex with anyone in years. All they have to do is mention something NewAge (and what's the likelihood of that?) and I'm outta there.
One of the most embarrassing things I see is how an entire group of men (or women) will almost break their necks because someone prettier walks by. Guys paying for strip clubs is also pathetic. (Jesus, can't they learn to mack?) Women wetting themselves over abs is another one. Just pathetic.
Anyway, you've misread me. I'm with you on this one.
Oh, I see:
I disagreed with your bullshit.
And still do. But the "you don't have to have sex" thing?
I'm with you on that - just not how you seem to have gotten there.
My first impulse is to dismiss the assertion that men are afraid of celibate women as mere nonsense, but I think there may be something to it.
What IS nonsense is the idea that men are frightened of "empowered" women, which is both a cliche these days and without merit. Leaving aside the idea that choosing not to do something that really is an awful lot of fun is "empowering" somehow. It's a choice, sure. But is choosing not to eat chocolate cake empowering? Is choosing to take shorter showers empowering? No. The idea that men are somehow impinging on your rights by having consensual sex with you is ridiculous.
Which brings me to my point -- men are duped into marrying women who are not that interested in having sex on a regular basis. Because of how our laws are set up, it's very difficult and horribly expensive to extricate one's self from this situation. I know, I had to do it. She took half of everything I owned, and all I'm left to be grateful for is that I didn't impregnate her... because I'd be paying for THAT mistake for the next 18 years.
If men acted like it's fashionable for women to act, we'd all be getting vasectomies and talking about how empowering it was on our version of Oprah, while having sex with all the women we could manage and bragging about it.
Many modern women aspire to be just like men -- except the men they aspire to be like are complete douchebags.
And they won't teach you THAT in that women's study course.
"Many modern women aspire to be just like men -- except the men they aspire to be like are complete douchebags."
So true. They take the worst examples and say I can, too" like there's anything good that could come from it. Even worse, then they try to convince us it's "empowering" (a totally made-up NewAge word that means nothing.).
It's just totally fucked up.
"...men are duped into marrying women who are not that interested in having sex on a regular basis."
I've got some sad news for you -- that's basically every woman. Ignore the propaganda -- there is absolutely no way a woman can possibly match a man in sex drive. That's not a criticism, it's a fact. I mean, you bleed for a week every month for forty or fifty years of your life, you carry the kids (three quarters of a year for each pregnancy), and see how much interest you'd have in sex.
Remember how in Annie Hall they showed Alvy and Annie at their individual therapy sessions, and he was complaining that she hardly ever wanted to have sex, maybe three times a week tops, and then in the next frame she complaining that he constantly wanted sex, as much as three times a week! That's the way it is.
Well, Crack, excuse me for not taking the Approved Path to the Truth. Shall I lash myself with the cat o'nine tails or just use the regular braided whip?
By the way, I don't think I've ever used the word "empowerment," even when drunk. I do try to respect the English language.
As commonly used here, "gay" is a politics and does not mean "homosexual." The latter word means a same-sex sexual attraction.
Queerty tells me it's "unacceptable" to hold a position that he* thinks harms someone somehow?
(And harms them, presumably only by either convincing them somehow to abide by it despite it somehow "harming" them, or by it somehow supporting someone who actually causes "harm" - because Tushnet herself isn't suggesting anyone be coerced in any way.)
I think that's a harmful position, and thus unacceptable by his own logic.
Will he explode, or at least repent of his anti-intellectual and illiberal position?
(* The masculine pronoun also being the gender neutral pronoun in English. I neither know nor care about Queerty's gender. I do care about his demands that nobody hold a position he Really Doesn't Like.
The only "unacceptable" here is saying that it's unacceptable to have a non-coercive platform that the speaker disapproves of.)
Melinda Selmys is another gay, or former gay, Catholic. She has a book called Sexual Authenticity. She sometimes blogs at:
http://sexualauthenticity.blogspot.com/
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