Althouse: "Caterpillar Inc. said the health-care overhaul legislation being considered by the U.S. House of Representatives would increase the company's health-care costs by more than $100 million in the first year alone."

March 19, 2010

"Caterpillar Inc. said the health-care overhaul legislation being considered by the U.S. House of Representatives would increase the company's health-care costs by more than $100 million in the first year alone."

"In a letter Thursday to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and House Republican Leader John Boehner of Ohio, Caterpillar urged lawmakers to vote against the plan 'because of the substantial cost burdens it would place on our shareholders, employees and retirees.' Caterpillar, the world's largest construction machinery manufacturer by sales, said it's particularly opposed to provisions in the bill that would expand Medicare taxes and mandate insurance coverage. The legislation would require nearly all companies to provide health insurance for their employees or face large fines."

Oh, but after the health care bill is passed, Congress and the President are going to focus on jobs.

247 comments:

1 – 200 of 247 Newer› Newest»

Issob Morocco said...: The new federal jobs for those Dimmycratic Congressmen and Congresswomen, thrown out next November!; 3/19/10, 11:45 AM
Phil 314 said...: Time to boycott Caterpillar!

(because it worked so well with Whole Foods); 3/19/10, 11:48 AM
AllenS said...: Let the government take it over.; 3/19/10, 11:49 AM
Anonymous said...: "... after the health care bill is passed, Congress and the President are going to focus on jobs."

Yes, that hat's right. They're going to focus on putting the rest of you out of jobs by vastly increasing the number of illegal Mexican immigrants they allow into the country.

They see it as their path to continued electoral dominance.

The Obama Administration has already totally stopped all workplace enforcement on the hiring of illegal aliens. It is now freely allowed for some companies to illegally hire Mexican immigrants in the country illegally - because those we have elected to enforce our laws are deliberately not doing so.

Republicans will be providing an assist - so don't look to the Republican Party for any help on this issue.

Lindsey Graham will join Barack Obama to seek amnesty to all current illegal aliens in the country - opening up the floodgates for millions more to come in so that wages can be forced down further.

Your country is being systematically destroyed by enemies from within.

You can watch it occur. Or you can do something about it. A call to arms has been made.

Go to Washington DC and take back the House of Representatives. Occupy your Congress. Stop them.

Go now, or American will be forever changed for you and your children will be enslaved to the state.

Go.; 3/19/10, 11:51 AM
The Drill SGT said...: Well as a VP of a small business, it may not cost us anything....

It provides some nasty penalties if you don't cover all your staff, but the penalties are perhaps 3-4% of personnel costs while health coverage is 16%.

So a firm can have a new 10+% labor advantage by dumping it's health plan onto the Feds (excuse me, the Exchanges) and let the Won subsidize coverage. If you don't dump your coverage it will be hard to win work.

Firms that don't dump coverage may have a recruiting advantage, but in this job market that doesn't mean as much.

Caterpillar? expect those jobs to go offshore now.; 3/19/10, 11:51 AM
traditionalguy said...: The DemonRats don't care if avery caterpillar job turns into a butterfly and lands in China.They have feathered their nests and easily told the lies that amount to telling working men and women to die quickly just like their Malthusian ideal calls for.; 3/19/10, 11:54 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: LIES! ALL LIES!
.
.
.
.....sorry guys, I think I'm seeing to many garage mahal posts and its rubbing off on me.; 3/19/10, 11:58 AM
Roger J. said...: No one cares what caterpiller thinks--unless, of course, you want to have the machinery that sustains our infrastructure. What Mr Obama and the democrats don't understand is that there are limits to their ability to influence the decision making that occurs in profit making firms. That seems to me to be their most egregious mistake--time will tell. I suspect at the end of the day Caterpiller will still be in operatin when Mr Obama and many congress critters are out of their job which consists, as far as I can see, of sucking at the government teat.; 3/19/10, 12:02 PM
Anonymous said...: How dare those greedy bastards whine about a paltry $100,000,000.00. Our dear leader has promised us that we can insure a net new 40,000,000 people and save money by doing it. That's because he is magic, and money grows on trees.

I'm pretty ashamed of myself right now. I bankrupted my kids and their kids. I slept while those theives in Washington played deem'n pass with our money. I didn't know that the bastards were doing it, but I should have. They've been playing us for fools for years. Read the bills--ha. Vote on them--meh.

And don't buy that crap that our legislators are voting their consciences. You can't vote what you don't have. About the kindest thing I can think to say about them is that they're simply dim witted fools. So if I deem and pass this bill, the Senate promises to do everything I asked Santa for. No--they're liars and thieves.; 3/19/10, 12:03 PM
ricpic said...: Actually they are now going to focus on the massive mestizo citizen bill in order to create an even more submissive mouths on the government teat American people.; 3/19/10, 12:06 PM
Jeremy said...: Whine and Bitch, whine and bitch. Whine and Bitch, whine and bitch.
Whine and Bitch, whine and bitch.

And Queen Ann is the leader of the whining and bitching pack.

*Oh, and by the way...poor, poor Caterpillar's stock price has gone from about $24 on March 1, 2009...to $60 today.

So maybe they can afford to provide insurance for the people who do the work.; 3/19/10, 12:07 PM
Jeremy said...: Roger J. said..."No one cares what Caterpiller thinks--unless, of course, you want to have the machinery that sustains our infrastructure."

Once again: Caterpillar stock price March 1, 2009 = $24.

Stock price today = $60.

Their market cap went from 14 billion to 37 billion.; 3/19/10, 12:11 PM
Roger J. said...: Ahh--Jeremy is back,early today. With his usual insightful analysis.

Thus marketh the end of this thread.; 3/19/10, 12:11 PM
X said...: I'm pretty sure they provide insurance Jeremy. What's inexplicable is that they think it's going to cost more when the President says it won't. Are they calling Obama a liar?; 3/19/10, 12:12 PM
Mr. Buford said...: Well of course El Presidente will focus on jobs - there are those 16,000 new IRS agents that need to be hired to enforce the new laws that will be visited on every employer and employee!

Order must be maintained.; 3/19/10, 12:13 PM
Anonymous said...: "Caterpillar's stock price has gone from about $24 on March 1, 2009...to $60 today."

That's because the Federal Reserve is deliberately inflating the stock market by paying .25% interest on savings.

There is nowhere for large investors such as Calpers and other pension funds to put their money except in the stock market.

It's an artificial bubble that Tim Geithner and the Fed have cooked up. And just when all the money gets all invested there, they'll pop the bubble and we'll watch another $20 Trillion on wealth disappear overnight.

That should make just about everybody wards of the state.

You fuckers just want to start a war and that's what you're going to fucking get I suspect.; 3/19/10, 12:14 PM
michaele said...: A TN congressman Bart Gordon, changed his vote from a no to a yes.A new little goody was directed his way by giving TN a break in the Medicaid reimbursement formula for 2 years. However, the Dem. governor Phil Bredesen, sent Gordon a letter asking him to vote no. Bredesen said the health care bill was very damaging to TN budget in years to come. God, I loathe these turncoats like Bart Gordon. It's as if they don't think their children and grandchildren are going to have to live with the repercussions of their fiscal irresponsibilty.; 3/19/10, 12:17 PM
Anonymous said...: "So maybe they can afford to provide insurance for the people who do the work."

No, Jeremy, they won't.

They'll just take those jobs overseas where they're not required to pay tribute to Barack Obama's largest campaign donors - the insurance companies.

Then, not only will the jobs be lost forever, the insurance won't be had and the taxes those employees used to pay will be gone and those employees will become tax consumers getting unemployment checks.

Have you ever run a business, Jeremy? Do you think large multi-national corporations such as Catepillar will keep their jobs here when they're being robbed by the President of the United States?

You're a fucking moron Jeremy, and each comment turd you drop proves that once again.; 3/19/10, 12:17 PM
Jeremy said...: Comrade X said..."Are they calling Obama a liar?"

I'm calling the people at Caterpillar liars.

They have no motive to say their costs will go down, no matter what the policy change is.

They're real motive is to make sure their profits and stock price stays up.

But since you apparently think Caterpillar should be believed, but not your own government, what do YOU think Caterpillar should be doing with that 23 billion dollar increase in their market cap?

Executive bonuses perhaps?

Here's what one of their officers did in March:

DOUGLAS R. OBERHELMAN
Officer 45,399
Exercised an OPTION to stuff 45,399 shares of stock into his portfolia at a price of $19.20 per share. ($862,000)

Today that stock is worth: $2,700,000; 3/19/10, 12:19 PM
Anonymous said...: "It's as if they don't think their children and grandchildren are going to have to live with the repercussions of their fiscal irresponsibilty."

But Michael, their children and grandchildren aren't covered by this law ... they're covered by a different law for government employees.

Only us plebes and proles will be subject to the death panels.

The lawmakers, their children and their grandchildren get a different level of health care.

It's time to make sure Congressmen like Bart Gordon can't even go home without protesters hounding his every move.

It's time to retire them by making them so sick of being pelted with eggs that they leave the Congress.

It's time to disobey.

It's time to misbehave.; 3/19/10, 12:21 PM
Roger J. said...: It is satisfying to know that Jeremy believes that our government is trustworthy and should be believed. In a contest of whom to believe, the government will nearly always lose, I suspect.; 3/19/10, 12:22 PM
Jeremy said...: NewHam - Caterpillar will not take their jobs overseas.

You need to read more and talk less.

March 12, 2010 / Veterans Today:

Caterpillar Inc. is considering relocating some heavy-equipment overseas production to a new U.S. plant, part of a growing movement among manufacturers to bring more operations back home—a shift that will likely spark fierce competition among states for new manufacturing jobs.

*And once again I ask the question: What do YOU think they should do with that additional 34 billion they have today...that they didn't have when President Obama took office?

And have all of you told your companies to discontinue your own insurance?

Do you think they get it for free?; 3/19/10, 12:24 PM
Michael Haz said...: That $100 million of annual cost added to Caterpillar engines and equipment will be a huge bonus for Cat's Japanese competitors.; 3/19/10, 12:24 PM
Anonymous said...: "What do you think Caterpillar should be doing with that 23 billion dollar increase in their market cap?"

God Jeremy you're suck a fucking moron.

Catepillar doesn't own that market cap.

That's not $23 billion sitting in their bank account you fucking dolt.

Catepillar's stockholders (such as CALPERS ... a state pension fund) own Catepillar's market capitalization.

You want to steal from CALPERS to fund health insurance donors to Barack Obama - stealing from Peter to bribe Paul.

You're a fucking moron, dude, and your inability to grasp basic economics reveals your 6th grade education.

Do your side a favor and shut up.; 3/19/10, 12:25 PM
E Buzz said...: I'm pretty sure Barry has no real interest in the entire field of economics.

But that's been my experience with lefties, they are so nuts, they don't care about rational thought.

Will this stupid ass plan cause my taxes to go up and untold shocks to the economy?

I am fairly confident the answer is true, no matter what the media idiots and lefties trolls say.; 3/19/10, 12:25 PM
Michael Haz said...: Jeremy, you dumbfuck, Caterpillar's change in market cap mostly goes to its shareholders. Cat doesn't get the cash. Socialist moron.; 3/19/10, 12:27 PM
Anonymous said...: "What do YOU think they should do with that additional 34 billion they have today"

They don't have an additional $34 billion today.

Jesus, you really think that's like money sitting in their bank account, don't you?

You're a fucking moron dude.

You really need to go read a basic economics textbook and understand what a market capitalization is.

Caterpillar doesn't have that money. It's not theirs to spend.

That you don't understand this basic point is astounding.; 3/19/10, 12:28 PM
Roger J. said...: It is unfortunate that Caterpillar is not running the government--perhaps we would all be better off.; 3/19/10, 12:28 PM
Anonymous said...: "It is unfortunate that Caterpillar is not running the government--perhaps we would all be better off."

I'll tell you who is running the government ... it's people like Jeremy and other women's studies majors who have no fucking concept what a market capitalization is.

They think market cap is a bank account that the government can raid or that Catepillar can dip into to pay for health insurance for deadbeats.

They're fucking morons who have never been required to take Economics 101 because that's not part of the women's studies cirriculum from which they received their Doctoral degrees.

How do you reason with a complete moron?

It's impossible.; 3/19/10, 12:32 PM
Michael said...: Jeremy: You do not understand market cap. Market capitalization does not equal cash. Surely you know this. Surely you are pulling our legs on this one.

Catepillar does provide insurance to its employees. Their contention is that it is going to be more, not less, expensive under the new "plan." Fine if you don't believe them.

On the other hand they can dump their insurance plan entirely and pay a paltry fine of $750 per worker and let the workers get a very quick and clear lesson in Obama care.

In the meantime google market cap and while you are at it figure out the difference between the following: debt, equity, EBITDA, cash flow, earnings and NOI. Being able to distinguish between revenues and profits is also a handy tool for most people. For liberals not so much but you might be curious why the other side is upset.; 3/19/10, 12:34 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Surprised the increasingly far-right Ann Althouse has not jumped onto this bandwagon:

"WASHINGTON — Conservative talk show hosts and columnists have ridiculed an 11-year-old Washington state boy's account of his mother's death as a "sob story" exploited by the White House and congressional Democrats like a "kiddie shield" to defend their health care legislation."

Not that she will criticize such actions.; 3/19/10, 12:34 PM
Leland said...: See, Obamacare is a jobs program. That $100 million will go to paying white collar accountants to figure out the additional taxes. Any jobs lost will be factory workers; which we will discover during the Amnesty dicussion later those are jobs Americans won't do.; 3/19/10, 12:35 PM
Anonymous said...: That you don't understand this basic point is astounding.

You don't know Jeremy very well, do you?; 3/19/10, 12:36 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: It would have been simpler and cheaper to give every American a voucher for $2,500 per year to help buy health insurance IMO. Plus we could have saved a lot of paper cause the bill would have comprised only my first sentence above vs. 2,700 pages.

In the words of Martin Luther King, I dream of a world where I can say STFU to anyone who whines that they do not have health insurance.; 3/19/10, 12:38 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Limbaugh top the 11-year-old:

"'Well, your mom would still have died, because Obamacare doesn't kick in until 2014.'"

Beck said: "Since all of the groups are so concerned and involved now, may I ask where were you when Marcelas' mother was vomiting blood?"

She did not have health insurance, which will lead many conservative to scorn and hate here. BUT:

"Owens was an assistant manager at a fast food restaurant when she became sick in September 2006. As she became sicker, she missed work and was eventually fired, leaving her without health insurance. She was treated twice in an emergency room and died at age 27 after a week of unconsciousness. Gina Owens has custody of Marcelas and his two younger sisters."

Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/03/18/90669/state-of-the-health-care-debate.html#ixzz0ie44Af7m

Republicants are very reptilian, cold-blooded, cruel and callous.; 3/19/10, 12:38 PM
Roger J. said...: New Ham: you really cannot reason with Jeremy--not worth the effort to try--His ultimate rejoinders are "duh" and "suck my dick"--he is simply not the sharpest tool in the shed. Poke fun at him all you like, but he is not here to reason--only to be the resident bomb thrower.; 3/19/10, 12:40 PM
Jeremy said...: Hambone - "They don't have an additional $34 billion today."

Of course not (and I misspoke in a previous comment), but they do have an additional 34 billion in market cap, the stock price has increased from $24 - 60 and if you think they're handing that out to the shareholders you're crazy.

Caterpillar has been a terrific company for decades on end, but just because they say the insurance reform will cost them an additional 100 million doesn't make it so.

The ONLY reason so many wing nuts here jump on it is because it's just one more way to denigrate President Obama.

When the oil companies say they're really hurting...do you also buy that?

How about when Enron was whining and bitching (sound familiar?)...were they also telling the truth?

How about AIG, BofA, Lehman, Goldman...do you believe everything they say?

Hypocrites.; 3/19/10, 12:40 PM
Scott M said...: But since you apparently think Caterpillar should be believed, but not your own government, what do YOU think Caterpillar should be doing with that 23 billion dollar increase in their market cap?

Hysterical. Believe the government? Right now, or always? Like the previous administration or the one before that?

Do you take salt and cheddar with your pretzels?; 3/19/10, 12:42 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: If we had single payer health insurance like so many civilized countries do then Cat would be completely relieved of their health care cost burden and better able to compete internationally and maybe employ a couple Americans.

The real problem is America's bizarre employer-based health care system. Republicants have ZERO solutions.

Cry me a river. Althouse posts this but ignores the skyrocketing health care premiums of insurance companies. Hypocrite.; 3/19/10, 12:43 PM
Michael said...: Alpha Liberal: Find out the kid's address and send him a check if you are so touched by the story. On the other hand why don't you adopt him?; 3/19/10, 12:44 PM
Jeremy said...: AJ Lynch said..."It would have been simpler and cheaper to give every American a voucher for $2,500 per year to help buy health insurance IMO."

At what age would you find coverage for $208 a month?

And what in the world would your deductible be?

I paid Blue Cross $350 a month ten years ago had no pre-existing conditions, in good health, and with a $2,500 deductible.; 3/19/10, 12:45 PM
Michael said...: Jeremy: If the stock goes up the amount of cash the company has does not go up. The price of the stock is a reflection of the value of the company by the investing public. It does not mean they have the new price of the stock times the number of shares in cash. Please stop embarrassing yourself, it is cringe making. Really.; 3/19/10, 12:46 PM
Roger J. said...: Ahh: Alpha Liberal does say something I can agree with--the idea of an employer based health care insurance system is at the root of our problem.; 3/19/10, 12:47 PM
Jeremy said...: Michael said..."Alpha Liberal: Find out the kid's address and send him a check if you are so touched by the story. On the other hand why don't you adopt him?"

Or, if he has Parkinson's and no coverage, you could just do what the tea bagger assholes do...scream at him and throw dollar bills.; 3/19/10, 12:47 PM
Anonymous said...: I'm the founder of a solar energy start up company and after seven years of work we are within a week or two of getting funded.

Our investor sees a lot of value in what we are doing but asked one thing of us: That we not outsource any significant ongoing work outside America (which thrilled us of course).

He said he is willing to risk a lot of money with us, but wants to ensure that his money goes to create as many American jobs as is feasible within a solid business plan.

Anyway, I just got off the phone with him and found out that his accountants and attorneys are now telling him that the new tax on investment returns (3.7% I believe) and increased employee health costs associated with the health care bill along with the increased likelihood of follow-on bills that add costs makes our funding deal "unworkable".

Hearing that was a like kick in the gut for both of us. We are going to try to make it work of course, but our forecast budget was tight as a drum already. What really sucks is that we had budgeted for excellent pay and benefits for every employee we hire - including great health care options.

I'm sitting here waiting for my partners to get here so we can try to figure out what we can do to salvage the situation and I was checking the web for information about the investment tax and other costs that were heretofore unknown to me - there's not much out there - and checked in here out of habit. I guess I just needed to vent a bit - sorry.

"Unworkable"... Is that what America is becoming?; 3/19/10, 12:47 PM
Jeremy said...: Roger J. said..."Ahh: Alpha Liberal does say something I can agree with--the idea of an employer based health care insurance system is at the root of our problem."

Really?

Maybe that's why every other industrialized democratic country in the world has found a way around that problem.

Now take a guess...; 3/19/10, 12:48 PM
Michael said...: Alpha: What are the names of the great heavy equipment brands made in the countries you consider "civilized?" I forget.; 3/19/10, 12:49 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Jeremy:

How about you pay the difference out of your own pocket! Cancel your internet or cable service! Stop your Starbucks habit, etc.; 3/19/10, 12:51 PM
Anonymous said...: If we had single payer health insurance like so many civilized countries do then Cat would be completely relieved of their health care cost burden

You win, sir. This is the single stupidest phrase ever posted on any comment thread on any blog in history.

I bet you think having a VAT means there's no sales tax, right?; 3/19/10, 12:53 PM
Michael said...: Jeremy: Send money to the kid with the dead mother and go back to trying to figure out the difference between cash on hand, net profit, profit after tax, and market capitalization. Or simply demand your 3,000% rebate from your insurer right away. You deserve it. Every American deserves it. Its a right, like health care.; 3/19/10, 12:53 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: A quick surf on the web shows that long before this bill was even drafted Caterpillar was cutting retirees from health benefits and raising retiree costs. Their retirees sued them over health care.

Interview with Caterpillar CEO James Owens, ca 2004:

"You've been adding capacity overseas, notably in China, but haven't built a new factory here in years. Is manufacturing in the U.S. becoming too hard?
It's challenging, and one of the biggest challenges is spiraling health-care costs. Old, traditional manufacturers like us have carried a lot of that burden for our employees. We have to put more individual responsibility in making wise health-care choices. That's why we're looking for cost-sharing from our hourly workers. Premiums, co-pays, and deductibles will do that. But it's a national problem. Increasingly, government policymakers have got to think about U.S. manufacturers competing in a global theater."

Waiting for Ann Althouse to criticize health care insurance companies. Just not holding my breath.; 3/19/10, 12:54 PM
Roger J. said...: Jeremy--identifiying the problem is the first step in solving it--doing what other people do may not be the best way to fix it. (I assume) you think that a government run single payer is system is the way to go, great--I don't happen to believe that. All of these issues can be sorted out at the ballot box.; 3/19/10, 12:54 PM
Jeremy said...: I really get a kick out of the whining and bitching one can read here every day of the week.

While you idiots scream, complain and moan about everything related to President Obama, and blather on about how he's literally destroying our country, I've bought shares and options in at least ten different companies that have skyrocketed in value.

And guess what...Caterpillar is one of them.

Instead of tea bagging it, why not invest in a thriving market? The more money people invest in companies, the more they can expand (like Caterpillar), and the more jobs they can provide.

By next year the economy will rebound, and by the time the 2012 election comes around President Obama will be enjoying an approval rating in the 60's, maybe even higher...and that's even with the obstructionist GOP doing what they can to stand in the way.

And since you all evidently think "socialized" medicine is the devil's work...I suggest you all call in today and make sure you're taken off of the current or future Medicare, Medicaid rolls immediately.; 3/19/10, 12:57 PM
Lyssa said...: Alpha, that story is getting derided because it's bullshit. Can you explain how a sick single mother with no job was not able to qualify for Medicaid? It's simply not possible. The programs were already out there. If she didn't take advantage of them then, how can we assume she would have now?; 3/19/10, 12:57 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Thank you, Roger J. Glad we can agree on something here.

I was reading a Forbes article (I think) on this subject just last night. On another PC though..; 3/19/10, 12:58 PM
bagoh20 said...: That doesn't sound like 3000% lower.; 3/19/10, 12:59 PM
X said...: I've bought shares and options in at least ten different companies that have skyrocketed in value.

And guess what...Caterpillar is one of them.

great. buy your employees some health care with your market cap increase. or does CAT have that money? so much double counting these days.; 3/19/10, 1:00 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Lyssa,

Judge not lest ye be judged. I guess you can speculate without knowing details. By all means, elaborate from your all-knowing perch!

From the article:

'Gina Owens said her daughter didn't qualify for Medicaid. State officials said that without knowing the details, it was impossible to speculate on whether Tifanny Owens would have qualified.

Tifanny Owens might have been eligible for Washington state's basic health care plan, which is aimed at the working poor. The plan has had a long waiting list for some time, said Sharon Michael of the Washington state Health Care Authority.

"Right now, we have 100,000 people on the wait list," Michael said.'; 3/19/10, 1:01 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: And once again I ask the question: What do YOU think they should do with that additional 34 billion they have today...that they didn't have when President Obama took office?

From a shareholder point of view I would say a dividends would be nice.; 3/19/10, 1:02 PM
Roger J. said...: Alpha--thanks. You really nailed it on the source of the problem. The United States is, as far as I know, the only contry that lays health care on the employers. As I recall from my course work, this goes back to the 1920s when firms in California first hired insurance companies to care for their employees. Not that the employers motives were pristine--in fact, they wanted their employees to be healthy so they could produce. Altruism wasnt involved--purely profit motive. But that is ultimately what capitalism is all about.; 3/19/10, 1:06 PM
chickelit said...: At least someone's mom will crack a wry smile wherever she is (above or below) when her son the avenger wreaks his havoc.; 3/19/10, 1:07 PM
Henry said...: AlphaLiberal wrote Althouse posts this but ignores the skyrocketing health care premiums of insurance companies.

Let me offer an end-run around this non-sequiter with a very simple point.

The Democrats' Health Care bill is going to cost $940B.

Where is that money going to come from?; 3/19/10, 1:07 PM
Anonymous said...: Gawd... I can't wait until Sunday to see what happens.

I mean, of course, the first online Islamic sex shop opening for business.

"Sunday! Sunday! Sunday!"

How exciting!; 3/19/10, 1:09 PM
Methinks said...: Huh.

That's a curious letter to send in light of the fact that the Obamessiah has promised a 3,000% reduction in the cost of premiums.

Gee.; 3/19/10, 1:11 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: The Democrats' Health Care bill is going to cost $940B.

Where is that money going to come from?

The 50% of the tax paying public who pay Federal income tax.; 3/19/10, 1:12 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Jeremy, I think it's all funny how Republicans are so very concerned about the political fate of Democrats if this bill passes.

I believe it's called "concern trolling."

More than likely they are following the advice of Bill Kristol from the Clinton era. If Dems pass a health care reform their popularity with the American people will skyrocket.

Knowing how much the American people, insured and otherwise, are suffering at the hands of the health insurance industry, this seems very likely.; 3/19/10, 1:13 PM
garage mahal said...: The 50% of the tax paying public who pay Federal income tax.

Don't Pay. Evade. Same thing.; 3/19/10, 1:15 PM
Michael said...: F15C: The surprise tax on "unearned income" is 3.8% or a 25% increase over what the current capital gains rate is. You will not have any liberals respond to your post because they haven't a clue to capital formation, the close tolerances of angel investor returns or the agony of start up sweat equity labor. They could care less. There are people posting here who believe that the increase in the value of a share of stock is money in the company's coffers. I would hope your investor can stick with your program but in any case your payday is postponed by an amount equal to the incremental profits required to pay this new government obligation and hit your investor's preference. Good luck to you.; 3/19/10, 1:16 PM
E Buzz said...: "Where is that money going to come from?"

940 billion, I believe it will be incredibly higher, and the ancillary costs, opportunity costs...etc. Barry doesn't understand economics, or business, or how things work.

Can our liberal trolloids tell us where the money will come from?

Will my taxes go up? Will I have trouble finding healthcare. Will my employer make it harder on me to actually get health insurance?

What will the government actually do? Does Obama know? Do out lefty trolls know?

Will it be harder for suburbanites to access healthcare? Will it be easier for them to simply pay the fine and go private, such as people who want better schools than the government garbage...

So many questions, Barry can't answer, nor can the liberal trolls.

They just say "BUSH DID IT SO IT'S OK!"

Idiots.; 3/19/10, 1:16 PM
X said...: Obamacare is designed to do two things:

1. Drive insurance premiums up creating a clamor for single payer and a permanent left of center government.

2. Incentivize employers to discontinue health benefits and creating a new permanent source of payroll tax revenue through the penalties which are cheaper than insuring.

It's actually a genius socialist plot as the two prongs reinforce each other.; 3/19/10, 1:17 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Roger, now you piqued my interest. the article said employer-based health care really took off right after WWII.

As it turns out the wage controls in effect at the time led to other compensation, in this case, employer-based health care.

I think some plans were already in place.

Here is a similar article though I know nothing about the web site and cannot vouch for it.; 3/19/10, 1:17 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Comrade X, you are quite the conspiracy theorist. Are you from GlenBeckistan?; 3/19/10, 1:18 PM
Michael said...: F15C: By the way, the liberals would far prefer to talk about a fictional dead woman than a real situation where new jobs might be in peril because of added tax burdens.; 3/19/10, 1:20 PM
Methinks said...: More than likely they are following the advice of Bill Kristol from the Clinton era. If Dems pass a health care reform their popularity with the American people will skyrocket.

Really? Then why didn't the Demonrats pass this way back in August and spend the last several months basking in their rising popularity?

The Republicans can't stop them passing it and never could. You guys are as deluded about what will make you popular as you are about how awesome government meatgrinder healthcare is.; 3/19/10, 1:21 PM
Anonymous said...: @Hoosier Daddy-

The 50% of the tax paying public who pay Federal income tax.

Why do you keep on recycling that stupid line? Sure, I grant you that technically 50% or so pay Federal income tax, but almost all of the rest do pay the Social Security and Medicare tax.

And, wait, wait, wait... I know you are going to claim that those FICA deductions are not technically tax, that people are just paying for benefits that they are going to eventually receive. Right?

But that makes you a nice Democrat-- believing that those promised future benefits are actually going to be there-- doesn't it?

Those benefits are not going to be there for people who are young now. You know that.; 3/19/10, 1:21 PM
Jeremy said...: mvl - "Barry doesn't understand economics, or business, or how things work."

And you think George W. Bush and Company did??

The recession began in December of 2007, he was at the switch during the real estate meltdown, the banks and investment houses blowing up, and the initial stages of massive job losses.

You can blather on all day about how President Obama is at fault, but that's patently false.

He took over a massive economic crisis and has only been in charge of a little over one year.

NO major corporate CEO or CFO would be blamed, after inheriting such a mess, after one year at the helm.

This is just blatant wing nut politics.; 3/19/10, 1:21 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: As the bill saves hundreds of billions of dollars it is self-financing.

Krugman addresses this in his column today:

"Actually, the proposed reform does more to control health care costs than any previous legislation, paying for expanded coverage by reducing the rate at which Medicare costs will grow, substantially improving Medicare’s long-run financing along the way."; 3/19/10, 1:21 PM
friendfinder said...: A TN congressman Bart Gordon, changed his vote from a no to a yes.A new little goody was directed his way by giving TN a break in the Medicaid reimbursement formula for 2 years. However, the Dem. governor Phil Bredesen, sent Gordon a letter asking him to vote no. Bredesen said the health care bill was very damaging to TN budget in years to come. God, I loathe these turncoats like Bart Gordon. It's as if they don't think their children and grandchildren are going to have to live with the repercussions of their fiscal irresponsibilty.
Software Testing; 3/19/10, 1:22 PM
bagoh20 said...: "AlphaLiberal wrote Althouse posts this but ignores the skyrocketing health care premiums of insurance companies."

Which they will now do even faster, since that's what it's designed to do. The current rises in cost are due to people wanting the best new available treatments and the speed of them coming available which will always cost more, and government mandates and regulations that reduce competition and choice.

These things will only get worse now. And with less investment in new medicines and fewer doctors care will be decline while additional mandates with further reduction in competition will continue to raise costs. Bottom line is higher costs less care, less choice.

For many of us the current system does miraculous work and does it at a fair cost. Another great American institution to be killed by progressives. Previous ones: the family, public education, universities, manufacturing, art, individualism, legal system, self reliance, the constitution...; 3/19/10, 1:23 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Jeremy:

"The recession began in December of 2007, he was at the switch during the real estate meltdown, the banks and investment houses blowing up, and the initial stages of massive job losses."

Yes, and let's not forget bush got the TARP bill he wanted that bailed out the banks with no strings attached was passed under Bush. His Administration fought the strings and things were collapsing so fast there was no strong pushback - from either party.

for the record, I agree that some Democrats bear blame for helping to relax regulations that allowed such recklessness to take place.; 3/19/10, 1:25 PM
X said...: alpha. I guess you will be geniunely surprised when insurance premiums rise. congrats on your faith.; 3/19/10, 1:27 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Bagoh20, I stop reading when I reach such hyperbolic conspiracy theorizing:

"Which they will now do even faster, since that's what it's designed to do. "

All the rest of your post is the usual Chicken Little response. The sky will fall, the earth will erupt, orphans will run wailing the streets.

Blah blah blah.; 3/19/10, 1:27 PM
Michael said...: Jeremy: I can assure you that George Bush knew the definition of market cap and that stock increases did not flow to the coffers of the issuer. Please please please do not comment on business matters. You look extra dumb. It is very troubling to anyone who is concerned with American education and its decline to read your posts on economics. Very disturbing.; 3/19/10, 1:27 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Comrade, by all means, show us the evidence for this conspiracy. Let's see what you have,.; 3/19/10, 1:28 PM
Jeremy said...: Julius Ray Hoffman said..."Hoosier Daddy- The 50% of the tax paying public who pay Federal income tax.
Why do you keep on recycling that stupid line? Sure, I grant you that technically 50% or so pay Federal income tax, but almost all of the rest do pay the Social Security and Medicare tax."

Oh, and Hoosier evidently isn't aware of the unemployment deductions, in some areas of the country, state taxes, and of course, sales taxes.

His whole point is that he's getting screwed because some people don't have to pay taxes.

Here's a good one for Hoosier to chew on: The owners of the Los Angeles Dodgers, in recent revelations during their divorce proceedings, reported that they increased their wealth by about 400 million dollars over the past 4 years, spent over 100 million on themselves...and paid ZERO Federal of State taxes.

Z-E-R-O.; 3/19/10, 1:28 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Jeremy, notice how Michael ducks your point that the economic collapse occurred under bush's watch and was inherited by Obama?

He prefer a personal attack to discussing the issue. that says a lot.; 3/19/10, 1:29 PM
Roger J. said...: Alpha--you may have to look a bit, and in fairness I did my PhD course work in 1995, but I recall it was a few firms in California that I think contracted with Kaiser Permanente (or its predecessor). The original contracts hired visiting nurses to provide primary care to the firms workers--the companies originally assumed the cost of those contracts--

So if my recollection is correct (and I am an old fart now) the seeds for employer based health insurance started in the 1920s--of course that was not a national movement--it was just the first step--and I suspect the analysis you cite is probably accurate in terms of overall momentum post world war II.; 3/19/10, 1:30 PM
X said...: you're the one that called it a conspiracy. you're also the one that thinks a 2700 page health care bill will make health insurance premiums go down.; 3/19/10, 1:31 PM
Methinks said...: As the bill saves hundreds of billions of dollars it is self-financing.

LOL!! You're easily fooled by accounting gimmicks.

The only way to "save money" is to "cover" people but deny treatment. That's how all those "civilized" countries with socialized medicine do it.

Heck, you can generate that kind of savings on your own. Just don't get treated. You don't need Nancy Pelosi to do it for you.; 3/19/10, 1:31 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Jeremy, for conservatives there is nothing wrong with rich people not paying their share of taxes, setting up offshore tax havens, etc, etc.

If poor people do the same, though, the reptilian Republicants will attack them.

Hilarious thing is so few of these guys are probably wealthy.; 3/19/10, 1:31 PM
Jeremy said...: Michael said..."Jeremy: I can assure you that George Bush knew the definition of market cap and that stock increases did not flow to the coffers of the issuer."

Blather one, fool.

You know exactly where the money goes when a company's stick and cap increases in such a way.

And if Bush is so savvy...where the fuck was he when things began to unwind? Where was he when the mortgage situation began to unfold?

And when you and others whine about President Obama's stimulus bill...where were you when Bush signed the 800 billion dollar bailout?

Forget about that?; 3/19/10, 1:32 PM
Michael said...: Alpha Liberal: I think Comrade was implying that if very ill people are added to insurance rolls, people with pre-existing medical problems, big ones, then the insurers are likely obliged to raise rates to pay for the mandated outlays. I don't think there is a conspiracy involved.; 3/19/10, 1:32 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Roger, no argument there. The point of the article was that the employer-based health which is hurting both companies and workers today really took off after WWII.

They said the system evolved rapidly as a response to wage controls.

That's compatible with insurance plans being in place, as you say. But it sounds like you're all over it.; 3/19/10, 1:36 PM
Methinks said...: Jeremy, for conservatives there is nothing wrong with rich people not paying their share of taxes, setting up offshore tax havens, etc, etc.

The "rich" pay the highest rate - an effective rate nearly 32% (that includes payroll taxes).

The "poor" pay less than 5%. Yet, the get they get more government services and transfer payments which, unlike in European statistics, don't show up as "income".

You lazy, jealous Demonrat thieves think you have the right to what everyone else produces while you plead poverty so that you can devote yourself to your "art".; 3/19/10, 1:37 PM
Michael said...: AlphaLiberal: All conservatives are wealthy. How can you say otherwise? I for one don't give a shit if chili goes to a hundred dollars a bowl and my insurance premiums triple. As long as I can fuck the poor out of their money and keep people dying in the streets I am perfectly happy. Like all conservatives. This latest little power grab by the Dems will only open up new ways for the righties to steal from the poor. No right thinking leftie can say that conservatives aren't all rich. It is an insult vying with the hurtful term "wingnut." Apologize.; 3/19/10, 1:38 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Make no mistake and accept no backpeddling. This is the conspiracy theory from Comrade X of GlennBeckistan:

Obamacare is designed to do two things:

1. Drive insurance premiums up creating a clamor for single payer and a permanent left of center government.

2. Incentivize employers to discontinue health benefits and creating a new permanent source of payroll tax revenue through the penalties which are cheaper than insuring.

It's actually a genius socialist plot as the two prongs reinforce each other. .

I just invited the good Comrade to back that stuff up. He has backed away instead, which is a hopeful sign.; 3/19/10, 1:38 PM
Roger J. said...: My good friend Alpha--the important thing is we are able to agree on the issue and its roots--there really is something to be said for conversation where issues are raised. and you and I agree on the problem--the solutions? probably not so much, but at least we have a mutually agreed upon starting starting place. I continue to welcome your input to this forum.; 3/19/10, 1:40 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Michael, I know from decades of personal experience that not all conservatives are rich.

That's why it's such a mystery that these working people are so willing to go the mats for lax corporate regulation, tax cuts for the rich, etc.

The rest of your response is an exercise in stereotyping. A bit of a strawman argument and when you make a strawman argument.....; 3/19/10, 1:41 PM
Jeremy said...: Methnks - "The only way to "save money" is to "cover" people but deny treatment. That's how all those "civilized" countries with socialized medicine do it."

That's bullshit.

Provide any evidence of where countries that provide national health care "deny treatment."

Right now the United States is ranked 37 by the world health organization.

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America; 3/19/10, 1:41 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Roger that, Roger!

What a nice breath of fresh air!; 3/19/10, 1:41 PM
X said...: I'm open-minded AL. tell me how the plan makes health insurance less expensive. tell me how it strengthens employer based health insurance.; 3/19/10, 1:41 PM
Sloanasaurus said...: I heard that all 41 Republican Senators are offering to filibuster the $400 billion Doc Fix unless its paid for by accelerating the tax on union health plans to 2011 from 2018. (is it true?) I wonder how House Dems will react to that?

If we are going to raise taxes at least the unions should start paying too.; 3/19/10, 1:42 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Maybe that's why rush Limbaugh promises to go to Costa Rica if he pass this bill. (Where they have nationalized health insurance!); 3/19/10, 1:42 PM
Michael said...: Jeremy: Please please please learn that an increase in market capitalization does not mean a corresponding increase in the company's cash. You are making liberals look very very stupid. The following statement: "You know exactly where the money goes when a company's stick and cap increases in such a way." is the raving of a financial illiterate.; 3/19/10, 1:43 PM
Henry said...: AlphaLiberal wrote: As the bill saves hundreds of billions of dollars it is self-financing.

The bill costs $940B in the first decade and saves -- via completely hypothetical Medicare cuts -- $130B.

So the bill is "self-financing" to the tune of $810B out of somebody's pocket.

Where does that money come from?; 3/19/10, 1:43 PM
AllenS said...: The country is having problems funding Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and now we are adding another program? This is insanity.; 3/19/10, 1:44 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Comrade, I simply asked you to provide evidence for your assertion that it is a socialist plot to destroy the health care system.

Now you're trying to change the subject.

And I will get off this merry go round.

Nice not to have any slurs or profanity today, all. have a great weekend.; 3/19/10, 1:44 PM
Methinks said...: I think Comrade was implying that if very ill people are added to insurance rolls, people with pre-existing medical problems, big ones, then the insurers are likely obliged to raise rates to pay for the mandated outlays.

I don't think that will happen. Politicians will prevent them from raising premiums enough to cover the additional costs in the name of "working for the people". Note how Obama bleats when insurers raise rates to pay for government mandates.

Insurance companies will be forced to deny treatment. In this way, the government can dictate every detail of coverage but force the unpopular decisions onto the nominally private sector, which they can use as a pretext to expand government power.; 3/19/10, 1:45 PM
bagoh20 said...: "Bagoh20, I stop reading when I reach such hyperbolic conspiracy theorizing"

That's a good strategy, otherwise you might have to think about what happens if you're wrong and we can't go there even for a second.; 3/19/10, 1:46 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: Why do you keep on recycling that stupid line? Sure, I grant you that technically 50% or so pay Federal income tax, but almost all of the rest do pay the Social Security and Medicare tax.

A lot don't, or don't pay even their fair share there. I know a number of people who have worked under the table for a long time.

But one big problems with your theory here is that all along both SS and Medicare were sold as earned. You put your money in while you can work, and then you get it out when you retire. Yeh, sure, those collecting right now are getting far more out than they put in, but that isn't going to last.

Someone described Social Security as a massive forced retirement plan hiding a much smaller welfare program. What you, and those on the left who keep pointing out that most pay SS and Medicare taxes, seem to be trying to do is cut out the connection between earning those benefits, and turn them into transfer payments.

But the problem there is that the reason that these programs have been sacrosanct for so long is that people feel that they have personally invested in them. It is their money that is talked about anytime there is talk about reducing benefits. But if you disconnect social security and medicare payments from the benefits that people believe they are earning, and consider them taxes to support the general welfare, you have just thrown away the legitimacy of these programs in the eyes of many. Once they are seen as welfare programs, and not earned, they will be much more vulnerable to being cut.

Keep in mind, you cannot double count those moneys. You can either consider them as people's payments into a forced retirement and health care system for the elderly, or you can treat them as taxes. But if you do the later, don't complain when the corresponding outlays are cut to balance the budget.; 3/19/10, 1:47 PM
Michael said...: Jeremy: The WHO stopped producing that stupid list a decade ago because even that organization knew that the "ranking" was stupid. If you believe it then there are 36 splendid place you can relocate to to receive free health care. You might find the immigration policies of those countries somewhat different than you would hope, but you can try. I recommend Andorra for you since you will be surrounded by rich people who live there for its amazing tax benefits.; 3/19/10, 1:48 PM
X said...: I have no evidence of a conspiracy. It just looks like that's what it's designed to do. do you have any arguments that refute my two points?; 3/19/10, 1:48 PM
Methinks said...: Maybe that's why rush Limbaugh promises to go to Costa Rica if he pass this bill. (Where they have nationalized health insurance!)

Must you put so much of your stupidity on display all in one day?

Rush Limbaugh will be going to the private clinics in Costa Rica, not to some publicly rundown hospital. I bet you also think that Cubans have access to the same facilities made available to the medical tourists.

Incidentally, there is a way to provide guaranteed health care everyone at a lower cost with no wait lists and as good or better outcomes as in the United States. Singapore does it. But the Dems never even glanced at how Singapore does it (by leaving most of the decisions in the hands of citizens). This bill has nothing to do with healthcare and everything to do with a political power grab.; 3/19/10, 1:51 PM
AllenS said...: Re: Social Security

I have my wage and tax statement from 1967. I paid into Social Security that year $73.22. I've started my second year of collecting Social Security and I receive $1469 each month.

What a great country!; 3/19/10, 1:52 PM
Jeremy said...: Michael said..."Jeremy: Please please please learn that an increase in market capitalization does not mean a corresponding increase in the company's cash."

Good lord...I never said any such thing.

I said that they're crying wolf, and I base it on the fact that their Market Cap has increased by about 34 billion dollars...yet they say that the cost of insuring their employees will hurt their bottom line.

Maybe it will effect their bottom line, but it's difficult to commiserate with a company that is apparently doing quite well in the midst of an economy like we have right now.

Now...if you think that kind of increase in Market Cap has little or anything to do with the "wealth" or "value" of the company...that's up to you...but nobody who's ever taken an econ or business course will agree.

Personally, I like companies with bigger Market Caps.

Oh, and why no response to little Georgie signing that massive 800 billion dollar bailout? That was fine with you?

How about he being at the switch during as the problems developed? Okay with you?

You're just another wing nut hypocrite blaming everything on President Obama...and you know it, too.; 3/19/10, 1:52 PM
Jeremy said...: Allen - And what in the world is your point?; 3/19/10, 1:54 PM
X said...: maybe AL you could explain why you and garage and jeremy and robert cook, all of whom want single payer, support this bill if you don't think it's designed to lead to single payer.; 3/19/10, 1:55 PM
Jeremy said...: Methinks - "Rush Limbaugh will be going to the private clinics in Costa Rica, not to some publicly rundown hospital."

Right.

And can we assume he'll just walk away from the top notch coverage provided by his employer?

Or better yet, he won't dip into that 250 million dollar contract.; 3/19/10, 1:56 PM
Sloanasaurus said...: I heard that the Democrats are no longer just the party of Tax and Spend. They are the party of Tax, Spend, and Debt, and unemployment They are making records in all these areas.

Democrats have proven all these stereotypes to be true. We are going to have record debts, record spending, taxes and record interest rates in the years to come. Passage of the health care fisaco will the the icing on the cake to economic ruin for the rest of us.; 3/19/10, 1:57 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: Right now the United States is ranked 37 by the world health organization.

BFD - you seem to be implying that whatever report you are referring to (please learn to provide HTML links, it isn't that hard) implies that our health care is worse than those above. Of course, that is plain silly. People don't routinely go to Canada from the U.S. for health care (and we don't have high profile governors doing it either). And you are far more likely to die on a gurney in a hospital hall in the U.K. from neglect than here. Yet, these countries are rated far above us here.

So, maybe we should be talking mortality rates from different types of cancer, than whatever metric is used by the (highly political) WHO.

There is a saying that figures lie, and liars figure.; 3/19/10, 1:57 PM
AllenS said...: Suck my dick.; 3/19/10, 1:57 PM
Jeremy said...: Oh-oh...Allen's meds are running low again.

How long you been out, Alvin?; 3/19/10, 1:59 PM
Jeremy said...: Bruce - If you don't want to believe the World Health Organization's ranking, that's your prerogative, but the rest of the world certainly gives them plenty of credence.

And if you have contrary evidence or rankings...let's see them.

As for a link...Google World Health Organization you lazy ass.; 3/19/10, 2:01 PM
Michael said...: Jeremy: My apologies. Some moron posing as you wrote the following which indicates that market cap is fungible and can be distributed by the company: "but they do have an additional 34 billion in market cap, the stock price has increased from $24 - 60 and if you think they're handing that out to the shareholders you're crazy."

I am not sure what the procedure is but someone using your name is posting nonsense and you should have it stopped. The person in question is an absolute moron and hurting your reputation.; 3/19/10, 2:01 PM
Anonymous said...: Michael: "The surprise tax on "unearned income" is 3.8% or a 25% increase over what the current capital gains rate is."

You are right about the size of the tax increase (I wrote 3.7% for some reason) and on liberals not having a clue about what it takes for businesses to start and grow.

Glancing through the comments, their astonishing inability to understand what something as simple as market capitalization is and isn't would be comical if it weren't for the fact that people just as clueless as them are in charge of our nation at the moment.

Also, to be clear, the amount to be be invested in our company by this single investor is $32M - well beyond Angel level.

The deal was (hopefully, will be) to be a big deal for us, our investors (we have two angel investments, as well as our own money in this), our employees, our community, and we'd hoped, our nation.

And Michael, thanks for wishing us good luck. It's appreciated.; 3/19/10, 2:01 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: AllenS:

That's funny.

I just got my soc sec statement and it says I earned $200 in my first year of work [on the books] when I was 16. I can't remember where I worked though? Maybe it was that new Toys R Us store during the Xmas holidays.; 3/19/10, 2:02 PM
Methinks said...: And can we assume he'll just walk away from the top notch coverage provided by his employer?

Jeremy - Rush is famously and proudly among the uninsured. He prefers to pay out of pocket.; 3/19/10, 2:02 PM
Michael said...: Jeremy: the WHO stopped those rankings 10 years ago because they felt them bogus. Someone posing as you is defending a list that cannot be other than stale.; 3/19/10, 2:03 PM
Jeremy said...: Bruce - "And you are far more likely to die on a gurney in a hospital hall in the U.K. from neglect than here. Yet, these countries are rated far above us here."

And you base this bullshit on what?

I've never read anything of the kind, and I've also traveled throughout the world and have never heard a disparaging word from the people who live in countries that provide health care.

You're just regurgitating the same lies Glenn Beck, Hannity and the tea bagger fools throw out every day of the week.

Oh, and by the way: Are you foregoing your right to Medicare and Medicaid?

We BOTH know the answer to that...don't we?; 3/19/10, 2:04 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: F15C:

Based on the investor market today, you must have one heck of a business model. Good luck getting it done!; 3/19/10, 2:05 PM
Methinks said...: F15C,

Your story is heartbreaking. I say this as someone who has gone through the brutal process of starting a company and raising capital.

I wish you the best of luck and let's just hope we can prevent this from passing and your investor returns.

Best of luck.; 3/19/10, 2:05 PM
Unknown said...: First, Barry and Nancy have told us this is the first step to single payer, so those evil insurance companies will be out of business - along with just about everything else.

Second, the market is anything but healthy. Most of the people who called the Swoon in '08 see another big drop coming in the second quarter.

Third, you use 'concern trolling' as if you know what you're talking about. Nobody gives a damn about the Demos that vote for this, they're just stating facts. The people who vote for this have shown how shallow their concern for the people and this country really is. And fellow travelers like Lindsey Graham should be shown the same door.

AlphaLiberal said...

...

Republicants are very reptilian, cold-blooded, cruel and callous.

I would love to be a fly on the wall when Jeremy and Alpha go up before the death panels.

"B-b-but I'm a LOYAL party member, Completely loyal. I love The Messiah and Reichsfuhrer Nancy. T-t-there's been a mistake. Call Gauleiter Hoyer. He'll vouch for me. You'll see. I've been on the exempted list all along."; 3/19/10, 2:08 PM
Michael said...: F15C: Well if you are in your third round of funding the surprise tax increase and investor concern is especially bad. You are right that the people in charge probably share a lot of the financial illiteracy that is displayed in these comments with the people "leading" us in Washington. I have degrees in the humanities and never took a business course. I learned finance in the trenches and have had the privilege of raising capital for many entrepreneurs whose sacrifice, energy and perseverance have inspired. Again, good luck.; 3/19/10, 2:09 PM
AllenS said...: AJ,

I was working for the government back then. The Army. I made $1664.73 that year and also paid a Federal tax of $141.48.; 3/19/10, 2:10 PM
Sofa King said...: I suggest you all call in today and make sure you're taken off of the current or future Medicare, Medicaid rolls immediately.

I'll take that deal! Wait, you mean I can't actually do that? And even if I could, I'd still have to pay just as much for them?

I'm not going to help you pretend anybody has a choice about participation in socialism, sorry, "social democracy."; 3/19/10, 2:10 PM
John Stodder said...: Jeremy's on his lunch break (every Friday he goes to a Reichian therapy group to get rolfed), so I thought I'd fill in for him:

Caterpillar owes back child support. They want children to die.

A search of state records also shows that Caterpillar hasn't sold real caterpillars since the 1930s. They are liars.

Also, Caterpillar once posed nude in a women's magazine. Is this a good role model?

Caterpillar's father once gave money to a university where a Holocaust denier was a student. I imagine that's okay with you Rethuglicans.

Robert Mapplethorpe owned Caterpillar stock at the time he was taking photographs of children. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But I thought you Fuckwits ought to know who you're in bed with.

For all these reasons: Vote for Obamacare!; 3/19/10, 2:10 PM
Henry said...: Jeremy - Here's a link for you:

Judging health systems: reflections on WHO's methods

Quote: The attainment values in WHO's World Health Report 20001 are spurious: only 39% are country-level observations. The responsiveness indicators are not comparable across countries; and three values obtained from expert informants were discarded in favour of imputed values. Indices of composite attainment and performance are based on imputations and thus are also meaningless.

Plus the report is 10 years old. Even if it wasn't hopelessly compromised by bad methodology, it would be hopelessly out-of-date.; 3/19/10, 2:11 PM
Jeremy said...: Michael _ I realize that, but they didn't stop because "they felt them bogus," they stopped because of the "complexity of the task."

But since you just can't stand to hear any of it, try this out:

January 6th, 2010 •

Christopher J.L. Murray, M.D., D.Phil., and Julio Frenk, M.D., Ph.D., M.P.H.

The World Health Report 2000, Health Systems: Improving Performance, ranked the U.S. health care system 37th in the world1 — a result that has been discussed frequently during the current debate on U.S. health care reform.

Despite the claim by many in the U.S. health policy community that international comparison is not useful because of the uniqueness of the United States, the rankings have figured prominently in many arenas.

It is hard to ignore that in 2006, the United States was:

1. Number 1 in terms of health care spending per capita but...

2. Ranked 39th for infant mortality

3. 43rd for adult female mortality

4. 42nd for adult male mortality

5. 36th for life expectancy

(http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=2610); 3/19/10, 2:12 PM
Methinks said...: I've never read anything of the kind, and I've also traveled throughout the world and have never heard a disparaging word from the people who live in countries that provide health care.

Well, then. You've never read a British Newspaper. All that shows is that you're ill-informed.

I'm not surprised you never heard a disparaging word about the NHS during your backpacking tours through the English countryside. That's not a topic that usually comes up with complete strangers when you're ordering beer in a pub.

Oh, but as an immigrant to this country and one had a serious illness in one of these countries where healthcare is "provided" and also whose family includes many doctors who practiced both here and in those enlightened countries, I assure you that nothing that Americans consider real medical care exists for free in European countries. There. Now you've heard it from someone from there.; 3/19/10, 2:12 PM
Chip Ahoy said...: There went the thread.; 3/19/10, 2:15 PM
Jeremy said...: Michael - Are you opting our of Medicare and Medicaid?

Sofa King said..."I'll take that deal! Wait, you mean I can't actually do that? And even if I could, I'd still have to pay just as much for them?

You don't have to opt out, fool.

Just don't accept the coverage. Tell them you want to forgo the payments, and will handle the expense out of pocket.

But we both know you won't do that...right?; 3/19/10, 2:15 PM
Jeremy said...: OG LOOK!!

The Chipper's here!!

Got more photos of YOU??

Post 'em...hurry!!; 3/19/10, 2:16 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: And now Republicans are circulating a fraudulent memo.

Countdown until Althouse publishes fraudulent memo.; 3/19/10, 2:18 PM
Alex said...: Yeah I agree as soon Jeremy posts, it's the end of the thread. Might as well close up comments after that. Really there should be a private comment area just for non-trolls so we can be in peace.; 3/19/10, 2:20 PM
Methinks said...: NHS nightmares

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1016262/Grandmother-dies-NHS-cancer-treatment-withdrawn-paid-privately-life-extending-drug.html

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/2222085.anger_as_baby_boy_denied_nhs_help/

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20100315/thl-cancer-patients-denied-treatment-d831572.html

There are too many stories to post the link to all. Just google it yourself, Jeremy.; 3/19/10, 2:21 PM
Methinks said...: apparently a little known fact in the U.S. is that government run Medicare denies treatment more often than private insurers.

Oh, it'll be Utopia if only they could get us all into medicare.; 3/19/10, 2:22 PM
Jeremy said...: Methinks - Bullshit.

I was in London last year for almost three weeks and had many conversations relating to health care and never heard squat about how horrible their coverage or treatment was.

Pulling specific articles out of a paper isn't going to prove your point.

I read articles every day relating to foster care abuse, but we're not closing down the foster care network all over the country, we just do what we can to improve it.

There were about 30,000 deaths last year related to guns.

Should we get rid of guns?; 3/19/10, 2:23 PM
Henry said...: Hey Alpha, you're back.

Let me summarize what I posted earlier.

The "self-financing" health care bill is going to cost $940B and reduce the deficit by $130B (via completely hypothetical Medicare cuts).

That's $810B unaccounted for.

Where is that money going to come from?; 3/19/10, 2:23 PM
jamielandes said...: Where did the fun Althousians go? vbspurs?; 3/19/10, 2:24 PM
Alex said...: As usual Jeremy makes a non-sequitor.; 3/19/10, 2:24 PM
Henry said...: You gotta love that term "self-financing." It has a nice Airstrip One ring to it.; 3/19/10, 2:25 PM
Skyler said...: Roger J wrote: What Mr Obama and the democrats don't understand is . . .

I think there is a common misunderstanding that B. Hussein doesn't understand what he's doing.

He certainly does. He is a marxist, and as our hostess Ann pointed out yesterday, the American marxist movement has been intent on destroying this nation.

No other motive explains his behavior. It is absurd to think that he is lacking understanding when he can have every piece of advice at the snap of a finger.

This destruction is intentional.; 3/19/10, 2:25 PM
Sofa King said...: Just don't accept the coverage. Tell them you want to forgo the payments, and will handle the expense out of pocket.

But we both know you won't do that...right?

Why should I? I've already paid for that coverage, not that I had any choice in the matter. Declining coverage is not the same as not participating in the system, and since I am not permitted to not participate, I think I will not decline to try to at least recover what I've paid, plus a reasonable rate of return.; 3/19/10, 2:25 PM
garage mahal said...: Where does the 2.4 trillion we already spend each year come from?; 3/19/10, 2:25 PM
Jeremy said...: Alex - What you and others really mean is this: Jeremy just won't agree with us.

Why not just get back on the sofa, take some of those meds and booze and go back to sleep?

You contribute nothing of interest anyway.; 3/19/10, 2:26 PM
Alex said...: Why not just get back on the sofa, take some of those meds and booze and go back to sleep?

Sounds like a great idea, why don't you try it.; 3/19/10, 2:29 PM
Jeremy said...: Michael said..."Jeremy: If you think that the obese underclass is going to live longer because of this health care bill you are delusional."

I posted something relating to the "obese underclass" living longer because of this bill?

Are you drunk?

But, with that said, I would have to assume any form of coverage that would allow one to visit a doctor or undergo treatment would be beneficial to anyone suffering from any type of medical problem.

You don't agree?; 3/19/10, 2:29 PM
Alex said...: Don't Pay. Evade. Same thing.

The real parasites are the corporations, yeah right. Socialism or death!; 3/19/10, 2:29 PM
Jeremy said...: garage mahal said..."Where does the 2.4 trillion we already spend each year come from?"

Now don't be asking these fools anything specific like that.

You'll get them confused.

They need to stay on the "we all hate Obama" track.; 3/19/10, 2:30 PM
Alex said...: The American people don't trust the CBO, Nancy Pelosi and Obama. Get it through your thick skull Jeremy.

Oh and Thom Hartmann is officially insane. I was listening to him ranting about putting the public option back in to get more votes. Think about that, every single lefty is already voting for this bill, there are NO more lefty votes to get!; 3/19/10, 2:31 PM
Alex said...: Now don't be asking these fools anything specific like that.

You obviously read that book "How to win Friends and influence people".; 3/19/10, 2:32 PM
Jeremy said...: Why aren't the local wing nut tea baggers here whining and bitching about this?

(AP) Two-thirds of U.S. corporations paid no federal income taxes between 1998 and 2005, according to a new report from Congress.

The study by the Government Accountability Office, said about 68 percent of foreign companies doing business in the U.S. avoided corporate taxes over the same period.

Collectively, the companies reported trillions of dollars in sales, according to GAO's estimate.; 3/19/10, 2:34 PM
traditionalguy said...: What Caterpillar and every other economics literate analyser is pointing out over and over is that every Obama Scheme grabs all of the money on the table in the name helping some people. That effectively removes the possibility of profits (that the system exists to produce)thus destroying the Capitalist system and reducing everyone to a serf of the government that produces nothing except propaganda. But we have to remember that before Obama and Pelosi can re-distribute all money and property, they first have to take it. So what Caterpillar sees as a defect, Obama and Pelosi see as the goal. The graduates from a failing command economy style of communism in Russia and China must be laughing very hard now at Reagan's Cowboy USA economics of free markets being systematically taken out and shot by our Liar-in-Chief.; 3/19/10, 2:34 PM
Alex said...: Jeremy - kudos to corporations avoiding Federal corporate tax. The difference between them and welfare parasites is they provide jobs and create wealth. Evading taxes by itself is not a moral crime to me.; 3/19/10, 2:36 PM
Henry said...: Where does the 2.4 trillion we already spend each year come from?

From businesses and consumers. That's my point.

Where do you think the next $810B come from?

Think about it for a minute. U.S. per capita spending is highest in the world. To extend coverage the government proposes to increase that spending by a third.

Where will that money come from?; 3/19/10, 2:37 PM
Michael said...: Jeremy: No, I don't agree. I think that the mortality rate is going to go sky high because the underclass thinks with some backup that guys like you are going to bail their fat asses out of whatever mess they get themselves into, including self-inflicted medical problems that will morph into sob stories. They will not haul their fat asses to the doctor because it is too much trouble and they don't have the energy.

Nice in Aspen isn't it? I prefer down valley, but its still pretty nice in town. Most of the people agree with each other.; 3/19/10, 2:37 PM
Methinks said...: Jeremy - You were in London for a WHOLE THREE WEEKS! Wow. Then I guess that makes you an expert on the NHS. My bad.

You wouldn't happen to have been talking to a bunch of healthy young people, would you? Healthy people love all that theoretical free health care - since they've never actually used it.

What does the foster care system or guns have to do with government meatgrinder healthcare?

I know they don't teach you guys anything in school anymore, but a string of non sequiturs does not an argument make.; 3/19/10, 2:38 PM
Alex said...: Methinks - they're simply here like robo callers on talk radio, spewing their talking points. Astroturfing.; 3/19/10, 2:40 PM
Methinks said...: But, with that said, I would have to assume any form of coverage that would allow one to visit a doctor or undergo treatment would be beneficial to anyone suffering from any type of medical problem.

From the time your symptoms present, you will wait three months for an appointment with your primary care physician (IF you're lucky enough to have one), another two months for the diagnostic test and another 6 months to two years for treatment.

If you die before you get treatment. Oh well. Officially, you had a right to health care.; 3/19/10, 2:43 PM
Methinks said...: Yah, I know, Alex. It's like they're cycling through their talking points (and badly, at that). But, I'm just sitting here waiting for my faxes to congress to go through, so I figured I'd screw with them for sport.; 3/19/10, 2:45 PM
Jeremy said...: Methinks - "From the time your symptoms present, you will wait three months for an appointment with your primary care physician (IF you're lucky enough to have one), another two months for the diagnostic test and another 6 months to two years for treatment."

Based on what?

Who is your doctor?

Who is your insurance carrier?

You're full of shit.; 3/19/10, 2:46 PM
Methinks said...: Based on what?

Experience and statistics. Stuff you wouldn't understand.

In other words, more than a three week vacation to London.; 3/19/10, 2:49 PM
Jeremy said...: Methinks - "Jeremy - You were in London for a WHOLE THREE WEEKS! Wow. Then I guess that makes you an expert on the NHS. My bad."

I spent many years with a company that did business throughout the world. The trip I mentioned was purely leisure travel with my wife...and yes I was only there three weeks.

How many weeks have you recently (or ever for that matter) spent in Europe?; 3/19/10, 2:50 PM
Jeremy said...: Michael - What is your deal with people who are overweight?

You sound like a real asshole.; 3/19/10, 2:51 PM
Methinks said...: How many weeks have you recently (or ever for that matter) spent in Europe?

You are quite dim, aren't you? I already told you I immigrated to the United States. So, uh, I guess that would be years, then.; 3/19/10, 2:52 PM
Alex said...: Jeremy likes calling people names.; 3/19/10, 2:52 PM
Jeremy said...: Alex - You actually think I want to become "friends" with 99% of the tea baggers here?

Get real.; 3/19/10, 2:52 PM
DADvocate said...: Caterpillar has it all wrong. Obama says there will be a 3000% decrease and we will all get raises.

How the mathematically impossible will be accomplished I don't know but Obama said it so it must be true. After all, Jesus fed the multitudes with how many fish and loaves of bread? The new messiah will easily be able to decrease health insurance costs by 3000%.; 3/19/10, 2:53 PM
chickelit said...: They need to stay on the "we all hate Obama" track.

I don't hate the President, I just hate his duplicitous sins!; 3/19/10, 2:53 PM
Methinks said...: You sound like a real asshole.

You can't understand the strain on the health care system associated with Obesity related illnesses?

You libtards are really really dim.; 3/19/10, 2:53 PM
Anonymous said...: The owners of the Los Angeles Dodgers, in recent revelations during their divorce proceedings, reported that they increased their wealth by about 400 million dollars over the past 4 years, spent over 100 million on themselves...and paid ZERO Federal of State taxes.

In Jeremy's world, this story is all the justification we need for increasing taxes on the small business owners and professionals making a few hundred thousand. You know, the guys who are taxed at a 50% marginal rate and are already paying the freight for everyone else.

It's like the photo negative of Reagan's story about the welfare queen driving a Cadillac and buying vodka with food stamps.; 3/19/10, 2:57 PM
Methinks said...: How the mathematically impossible will be accomplished I don't know

Obviously, Obama was using the "million man math" the NEA teachers teach our youngsters these days.

That's how he arrived at the 57 states in the Union. I was hoping the "corpseman" he talked to would have educated or him, but no...; 3/19/10, 3:01 PM
Methinks said...: Alex - You actually think I want to become "friends" with 99% of the tea baggers here?

What kind of idiot spends his entire day seeking out blogs where he his dimwitted nonsense is repeatedly by people he doesn't like?; 3/19/10, 3:05 PM
damikesc said...: J: But since you apparently think Caterpillar should be believed, but not your own government, what do YOU think Caterpillar should be doing with that 23 billion dollar increase in their market cap?

DM: Seeing as how they don't have any of that money, not much. You're aware that they only get money the very first time they sell stocks...not every other time the stock is sold. It helps Caterpillar as much as selling used video games helps Nintendo.

J: Maybe that's why every other industrialized democratic country in the world has found a way around that problem.

Working out wonderfully for Greece. And the rest of Europe has similar problems.

J: While you idiots scream, complain and moan about everything related to President Obama, and blather on about how he's literally destroying our country, I've bought shares and options in at least ten different companies that have skyrocketed in value.

And guess what...Caterpillar is one of them.

How much of your increase in market cap did you give to others, you selfish prick?

J: The recession began in December of 2007, he was at the switch during the real estate meltdown, the banks and investment houses blowing up, and the initial stages of massive job losses.

Unemployment spiked heavily when Obama was at the controls and the Dems ran both Houses with massive majorities. Unemployment, mind you, has gotten no better.

AL: Krugman addresses this in his column today:

Well, you obviously couldn't find anybody creditable. Heck, go with Ezra Klein, if you want even more pure hackery.

AL: Yes, and let's not forget bush got the TARP bill he wanted that bailed out the banks with no strings attached was passed under Bush. His Administration fought the strings and things were collapsing so fast there was no strong pushback - from either party.

Strange, I remember the GOP being blamed when the first bill was defeated due to the lack of strings. They were blamed by Pelosi, whose Democrats LOVED the bill with no strings attached.

And, Jeremy, no corporation pays taxes. They just pass the expense on to you, genius.; 3/19/10, 3:06 PM
Methinks said...: that's "repeatedly shot down"; 3/19/10, 3:06 PM
AllenS said...: Someone needs to take the time and explain to Obama what having a liability car insurance policy will actually cover.; 3/19/10, 3:09 PM
X said...: AL, that hoax memo says the Dems are going to pass the doc fix, which will make this 10 years of tax 6 years of benefits health care plan even less deficit nuetral.

AL says the memo is both fake and inaccurate. such faith.; 3/19/10, 3:18 PM
garage mahal said...: Republicans would never do something like this.; 3/19/10, 3:21 PM
Michael said...: Jeremy: Need to lose a few pounds do you? My deal with fat people is that their corpulence impedes my progress through airports and on the streets of the cities I visit. Their health problems are profound and directly related to their obesity. The cost of treating them is therefore averaged into my cost of treatment which unfairly weighs, if I may say so, against me. I take care with my diet, am relentless in my exercise regimen and generally take very good care of myself. I have a great deal of discipline which I find works in my favor in any number of areas. If thinking that fat people are a problem for us all makes me an asshole then I am happy to wear that title and earn it over and over. I would suggest you might feel better about yourself if you shed a few pounds. The fish and chips might have gotten the better of you over in merry old England. If you think that fat people are a benefit to our nation and a brake on our health care costs I would love to read your reasoning. Any reasoning at all would be welcome.; 3/19/10, 3:22 PM
damikesc said...: I bet ignoring simple truths like the issues that obesity bring to the table for health care is a good sign of this keeping costs down.

I am so glad progressives not only tend to be blithering morons...but EMBRACE being blithering morons.; 3/19/10, 3:31 PM
DADvocate said...: Ranked 39th for infant mortality

Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics.

Different countries measure infant mortality differently.

The United Nations Statistics Division, which collects data on infant mortality, stipulates that an infant, once it is removed from its mother and then "breathes or shows any other evidence of life such as beating of the heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles... is considered live-born regardless of gestational age."16 While the U.S. follows that definition, many other nations do not. Demographer Nicholas Eberstadt notes that in Switzerland "an infant must be at least 30 centimeters long at birth to be counted as living."17 This excludes many of the most vulnerable infants from Switzerland's infant mortality measure.

Similar discrepancies in the other stats also. Of course, this never stopped a liberal from pushing their lie-driven agenda. Don't let the truth hit you in the butt on the way out.; 3/19/10, 3:44 PM
Joe said...: Their health problems are profound and directly related to their obesity.

Sorry, Michael, but that's bullshit. There is a very weak correlation with obesity and diabetes and blood pressure. That's it. (And even then, there is evidence that the arrow of causation for diabetes is that it causes obesity, not the other way around.)

The problem with the overweight is that they live longer and thus cost the system more.; 3/19/10, 4:06 PM
Joe said...: Obama, Democrats lobbying hard for health vote

AP headline. I thought that according to the gospel of Obama, lobbying was evil.

"lobbyists won't find a job in my White House."

- Obama during campaign.; 3/19/10, 4:09 PM
Alex said...: Joe - Obama lobbying for the bill is not the same as Rethug K-street types doing it for evil corporations. After all, Obama has our best interests at heart.; 3/19/10, 4:11 PM
Anonymous said...: Wasn't Caterpillar the company that Obams touted as a beneficiary of the worthless Porkulus?; 3/19/10, 4:18 PM
Jeremy said...: Caterpillar Opposes Health Care Bill.

AARP and AMA Support It.

Guess who I side with.; 3/19/10, 4:33 PM
Alex said...: Yeah screw Caterpillar Inc! they only employ 97K people!; 3/19/10, 4:34 PM
Phil 314 said...: Jeremy;
They're real motive is to make sure their profits and stock price stays up.

But since you apparently think Caterpillar should be believed, but not your own government, what do YOU think Caterpillar should be doing with that 23 billion dollar increase in their market cap?

Executive bonuses perhaps?

Here's what one of their officers did in March:

DOUGLAS R. OBERHELMAN
Officer 45,399
Exercised an OPTION to stuff 45,399 shares of stock into his portfolia at a price of $19.20 per share. ($862,000)

Today that stock is worth: $2,700,000

wouldn't it be easier just to say its capitalism (harumpff!)

Roger;
As I recall from my course work, this goes back to the 1920s when firms in California first hired insurance companies to care for their employees. Not that the employers motives were pristine--in fact, they wanted their employees to be healthy so they could produce.

You just described Kaiser Steel in California. That's the origin of the HMO. The employee-based system came out of the post-war wage/price controls and the need for employers to offer additional compensation to attract workers without violating those controls.

Note every western country that has universal health has a single-payor system. Switzerland is one example. They're based on a mandate and a tightly regulated insurance market.

Jeremy;
Right now the United States is ranked 37 by the world health organization. ...

So let me get this straight. Our health care isn't the best, we don't cover 1 in 7 Americans and yet we spend 50% more per person than the next highest country.

So tell me how more money will solve this problem?; 3/19/10, 4:38 PM
Calypso Facto said...: @ Joe, obesity and health.

What you think on the subject won't matter soon because Mrs. O says that being fat is evil and once her husband is in charge of your health care he'll have all kinds of leverage to mandate behavior modification.; 3/19/10, 4:42 PM
chickelit said...: wv: "fectal"

That would be a good adjective for Jeremy ala "marvelous" Meade and "wonderful" Bissage.; 3/19/10, 4:52 PM