After a three-hour meeting, lawmakers agreed to legislative principles that would approve Treasury's request for the funds, but would break it into installments, according to people familiar with the matter. Treasury would have access to $250 billion immediately, with another $100 billion to follow if needed. Congress would be able to block the last installment through a vote if it was unhappy with the program.It sounds rational to me, but I'm no expert. What do you think?
The agreement could require all companies participating in the program to agree to limits on executive pay—such as restrictions on "golden parachutes." It is also likely to give the government equity warrants in all participating companies.
Still unresolved is whether or not to include changes to bankruptcy law that would give judges the right to change the terms of mortgages. Democratic Sen. Dick Durbin of Illinois made a plea for it to be included, even though many lawmakers and the White House are hotly opposed.
UPDATE: Uh oh:
But after the [White House] meeting broke up about an hour later, the top Republican on the Senate Banking Committee, Sen. Richard C. Shelby (Ala.), who strongly opposes the bailout, told reporters, "I don't believe we have an agreement."...
Sens. McCain (Ariz.) and Obama (Ill.) left the White House after the meeting without speaking to reporters.
A visibly irritated Sen. Christopher J. Dodd (D-Conn.), chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, later said on CNN that the meeting was thrown off when Republicans brought up "some new core agreement" that supposedly had been floated by McCain and was being considered by the Treasury Department.
"What this looked like to me was a rescue plan for John McCain," Dodd fumed. "This is a sad day for the country." He said he still hopes that a deal can be struck but that the Republicans "need to get their act together and decide what they're for."
Posts
250 comments:
1 – 200 of 250 Newer› Newest»I like the idea of allocating some of the $700b first before going whole hog.
The rumor mill has it that Pelosi wants 100 Rep. votes for political cover (Hey!! Mr and Mrs America it's bi-partisan)...but she ain't getting them.
It's not over 'till it's over.
Choice #5
Looks ok but Durbin's still an a$$
Trevor's talking 'hog'. Where's Titus when you need him??
Durbin has been my Senator for years. Before that, he represented my district in Congress. He started out as a fairly conservative Democrat. He has "grown office" to the point where he is a complete loon. The saying around home was, "Why do you think we call him Dick?" The mortgage plan he presents is horrendous.
I can see the campaign commercials now...
[scary voice] John McCain cut the Treasury operating budget by more than 60%, risking financial ruin for the entire country. [/scary voice]
I believe it's fleece in our time.
Only in Congress is 250 + 100 = 700.
Dick Durbin ain't known as the stupidest man in the Senate for nothin'.
I don't want some stinking Congress critter "monitoring our collective investment".
I'm listening to Rush playing clips of Barney Frank speaking today. Ol' Barn is screeching about the need to be able to use this program to provide 'affordable housing' for the people who need it.
That means, of course, free homes for the people who defaulted on their loans, I'd bet.
It's bad enough that the people who play by the rules are likely to get stuck paying for this deal, but in the process those who did the wrong thing will get generous rewards for their efforts.
Barney Frank, appearing on Larry King Alive last night, placed the entire blame for the subprime mess on Ronald Reagan. Moron.
The bankruptcy law issue is a phony one. We are facing 15,000,000 bankruptcies in the USA. There is no way that the judicial system will be able to deal with this issue.
Bankruptcies are a major factor in the failure of the housing market to stabilize. Home prices are still falling, because bankruptcies and distressed sales are setting the market. The financial system can not get really stable until housing prices stop falling, and consumer spending will continue to wane until home prices are stable.
The failure to deal directly with falling home prices is the great weakness of the plan. It will be even worse to give bankruptcy judges the power to modify mortgage terms--not because mortgage terms should not be modified, but because the bankruptcy "solution" is not a real solution at all.
I am a Republican. I believe in sanctity of contract and that individuals should bear the brunt of their own mistakes. But we are kidding ourselves if we think the economic and financial problems of the country can be solved while the real estate market continues to crumble.
Accordingly, I do not think the plan will work until there is a global solution to mortgage foreclosures. This will involve very unpalatable actions, especially to conservatives. We will have to make global modifications to the terms of existing mortgages, both interest rate concessions and principal reductions, if the foreclosure wave is to be broken.
My guess is that Paulson, Bernake and some of the Congressional leadership understand this, but know they could never sell a package with massive mortgage relief at this time. It is the other shoe that will drop later.
Make no mistake, we are on the edge of the second Great Depression in the last 100 years. The plan that Congress seems about to approve is not going to do the job.
Ideology is going to have to go out the window. Events are overwhelming ideology.
chickenlittle, that's funny.
I think this is the best they can do.
Looks like Ol' John will have to start prepping for the debate again.
Wasn't this originally set up in 1938 as a way OUT of the Great Depression -- as a federally guaranteed loan program to get small businesses and home owners on their feet?
It was originally started therefore by the Roosevelts, and only morphed in 1968 into what it now is -- ?
The whole picture is murky. It's like a great ghost ship that I didn't even know was sailing into the mother ship.
If the final plan includes a "bailout" for homeowners and Republicans actually support it, they've all lost my vote for this election -- not just McCain, but every last one on the ballot.
Everything's fine.
Confidence is restored.
Resume shopping.
Merry Christmas!
Not. so. fast.
We're getting Dem Senate spin while the AP reports that the House Repubs aren't on board and Pelosi has said she won't do the deal without GOP cover.
"There were signs that the conservative-leaning House Republican Caucus was not on board. Both of Congress' Republican leaders, Rep. John Boehner and Sen. Mitch McConnell, issued statements saying there was not yet an agreement."
via breitbart.com
Your poll answers suck.
They do kind of doyle, don't they.
McCain's still in New York. As important as it is to get his butt to Washington: He's just not ready to leave:
"With so much on the line, for America and the world, the debate that matters most right now is taking place in the United States Capitol — and I intend to join it," McCain said after addressing former President Clinton's Global Initiative in New York on Thursday before heading to Washington.
(McCain)
Hello, I must be going,
I cannot stay, I came to say, I must be going.
I’m glad I came, but just the same I must be going.
La La.
(Bill Clinton)
For my sake you must stay.
If you should go away,
You’d spoil this Global Initiative I am throwing.
(McCain)
I’ll stay a week or two,
I’ll stay the summer thru,
But I am telling you,
I must be going.
How can the Republican Caucus not recognize the severity of the situation? Didn't their Presidential Candidate just "suspend" his campaign because of this?
I see two possibilities: Republicans on the Hill are pissed at McCain and are shoving the shiv in deep. Or, they're manufacturing a crisis so that McCain can come along and smooth ruffled feathers.
We're getting Dem Senate spin while the AP reports that the House Repubs aren't on board and Pelosi has said she won't do the deal without GOP cover.
I'm reminded of a stunt that segregationists used to pull back in the 50s and 60s, when dealing with the civil rights movement. They'd find some black guy in a position of some sort of authority who would agree to the deal they were offering. Then, when the movement "reneged" on a deal they'd never agreed to, the white press would pound them for being untrustworthy.
Expect to see headlines about how the Republicans are "backing out of the deal".
former law student said...Looks like Ol' John will have to start prepping for the debate again.
Shouldn't they reschedule the foreign policy debates for later and reserve Friday for the economics one?
Too bad Mitt Romney is a Mormon.
Good for the Democrats, bad for the country.
I am with you Rev.
The other day there was a news story about common people struggling to pay their mortgage.
One example in the story was a Calif family. They owned five homes including rental investments!
I could not believe the journalist thought this family should be included in the story as a casualty of the mortgage crisis!
How can the Republican Caucus not recognize the severity of the situation? Didn't their Presidential Candidate just "suspend" his campaign because of this?
Apparently McCain went back to Washington *because* the Republican Caucus doesn't understand the severity of the problem. If the Republican candidate supports the plan, it is a lot harder for Republican congressmen to oppose it.
hmmm...a deal proposed by the republican treasury and pushed by the republican president
but its the dems fault that congressional GOPcritters won't go for it
love it!
Dick Durbin is a poltroon. In Chicago he is known as Durbin the Turban. Unfortunately, he is a senior member of the Senate. Only a true, one hundred percent moron would propose what he did.
Shouldn't they reschedule the foreign policy debates for later and reserve Friday for the economics one?
I'm just amused at the idea that McCain would need to "prepare" for a foreign policy debate. Aside from a last-minute cram session to find out what Obama's foreign policy positions are this week I don't see what he'd need time to prepare for.
I'm concerned about the limits on compensation: Elements of the congressional plan will likely be opposed by Mr. Paulson. Treasury doesn't want conditions such as limits to executive pay to be broadly applied to all companies.
If they apply to sells of the mortgages, that is one thing. If they apply to buyers, it will increase taxpayer costs.
-----------------------
McCain's still in New York. As important as it is to get his butt to Washington: He's just not ready to leave:
What? Are you joking? He's been in Washington for awhile now.
I guess Maxine, and her rotary-dial telephone were right all along.
People with rotary-dial telephones aren't being used to form the polls. It's only cell phone users under 30, that are determining the results.
The pollsters aren't reaching people with call blocking, or hang-ups------people with touch tone landlines are much more likely to vote for McCain.....but aren't being factored into the polls !
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/964/cell-phones-and-the-2008-vote-an-update
Michael_H said...
Barney Frank, appearing on Larry King Alive last night, placed the entire blame for the subprime mess on Ronald Reagan. Moron.
Mike, You'll like this
The real BS from Barney
I just caught a bit of Rush on the drive over to my broker, errr, i mean therapist.
He says McCain is going back to DC and then vote AGAINST whatever plan the senate floats. Brilliant strategy! The bill will pass and McCain will solidify his image as a maverick while Obama is left talking to himself at Ole Miss. He has had Obama on the defensive ever since the RNC. I don't care for most of McCain's previous escapades but he has been running one hell of a campaign recently.
I'm opposed to any plan that doesn't put Barney Frank away for 10 to 20.
Hey, isn't that other feller a Senator too? You know the guy, what's his name? He's running with or away from Obama? Biden, yeaht that's the guy? Where has he been? Is he in DC? Or is he looking for proof that FDR was president in '29 and TV was already invented and in every household?
Biden was last seen taking to a rally of 20 seniors in Youngstown.
He's been in Washington for awhile now.
McCain made it, yay!
I'm still puzzled that he prioritized speaking at a Bill Clinton event over either solving the economic crisis, or Friday's Presidential debate. He spent much more time dawdling out of NYC than the debate will take.
by the way, i give you the republican vice president:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npUMUASwaec&eurl=http://thinkprogress.org/2008/09/25/palin-bailout-healthcare/
McCain made it, yay!
Nice try at diversion FLS, but everybody notices you're just making sh*t up.
Bailout agreement equals bendover and smile! But, in a sign that the end days are upon us, Chuck Schumer had an intelligent suggestion. Next thing you know Sarahcuda will answer some questions from reporters and Obama will be in the White House.
Oh God!
Or is he looking for proof that FDR was president in '29 and TV was already invented and in every household?
How many mistakes did Biden make?
1. FDR was President during the Great Depression, not right after the Stock Market Crash. What an idiot for getting the two mixed up!
2. FDR's broadcast talks to the nation via CBS and NBC were on the radio, not the TV! What a maroon! Similarly, FDR's Fireside Chats did not involve a literal fireside.
everybody notices you're just making sh*t up.
If you could explain what you're talking about, I would try to address it.
There's even a photo.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/26/business/26bush.html
Take a look. That's our leadership.
There's even a photo.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/26/business/26bush.html
Take a look. That's our leadership.
4:20 PM
Obama looks like a chastened school boy at the adults table.
John Boehner is melanoma waiting to happen.
Addendum:
Not ready to lead.
FLS: Claiming McCain was in NYC when he wasn't.
the only response to palin's "answer"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKjxFJfcrcA
Madison:
What do you mean by that?
exalted - Palin is more qualified to be President then Obama.
FLS: Claiming McCain was in NYC when he wasn't.
I don't know how much time he spent in NYC at the Global Initiative today. He didn't meet with Bush and Obama till 4 pm:
The announcement that lawmakers had reached an accord came on a day of political theater at the Capitol and at the White House where President Bush met with Congressional leaders and the presidential candidates, Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, and Senator Barack Obama, Democrat of Illinois.
“We’re in a serious economic crisis,” Mr. Bush told reporters as the meeting began, shortly before 4 p.m. in the Cabinet Room of the White House. “This meeting is an attempt to move the process forward. My hope is we can reach an agreement very shortly.”
mccain has a funny way of suspending his campaign! where did he find the time?!
http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/0908/McCain_to_do_round_of_network_interviews_tonight.html?showall
alex,
if by "qualified" you mean "more likely to humiliate herself" then yes, agreed 100%
Obama looks like a chastened school boy at the adults table.
To me, he just looks like he's paying close attention.
FLS - Obama is not ready to lead.
Drill Sgt: Thanks for the link. I doubt a similar story will appear anywhere else in the media. Thanks, Fox.
He was reported leaving his DC office at 1PM. That puts him there considerably before then.
Is it me or does Obama look unhappy that he's been taken away from study hall? He does needs his rest and study time before the debate.
obama - not ready to lead.
Alex, dude, you're monotonous.
Andres Serrano has a new exhibit at a Manhattan gallery.
It is "Shit."
"The subject matter isn’t the problem; it’s that he’s done nothing with it," says New York magazine.
The guy should have been on Wall Street.
mcg - the left own monotony. I figure a little right back at them.
BTW, we're up to about 101 Palin smears, the latest being she's a witch. What's next - black masses with Ozzy Osbourne?
Alex:
we're up to about 101 Palin smears
And those are just the ones started by Andrew Sullivan!
More about Sullivan:
After the photos and other blog posts became publicized, Sullivan admitted that she was most likely pregnant, but defended his role in giving wide audience to the rumors. [66] Blogger Mickey Kaus defended Sullivan's coverage of the rumor, writing:
Andrew Sullivan's role in publicizing the rumor seems legit too. The feeding frenzy of publicity is what flushes out the counter-evidence quickly (and then that evidence gets a lot of attention).[67]
===================================
Oh, so it was ok for Sullivan to be part of the smear machine so that it could be exposed for a hoax? Does Kaus think we are that dumb?
If Uncle Sam buys bad mortage-based securities, does Uncle Sam suddenly become the real party at interest in foreclosure cases? I've seen virtually no commentary on this point, but I think one of the (maybe unintended) consequences of this bailout may be a huge shake-up in foreclosure cases.
former law student said...How many mistakes did Biden make?
1. FDR was President during the Great Depression, not right after the Stock Market Crash. What an idiot for getting the two mixed up!
Stock market crash - Oct 1929
FDR elected - March 1933
So you are saying there was no Depression in the US in 1930, 1931 or 1932?
2. FDR's broadcast talks to the nation via CBS and NBC were on the radio, not the TV! What a maroon! Similarly, FDR's Fireside Chats did not involve a literal fireside.
But Biden said - "When the stock market crashed, Franklin Roosevelt got on the television and didn't just talk about the princes of greed," Biden told Couric. "He said, 'Look, here's what happened.'"
Now do you understand why some people think you are either stupid or a liar?
THIS sounds like a job for . . .
Nonsense Rhyme Cheerleader Man!!!
(a copyrighted feature of this broadcast):
Supple, couple, finger up your ass,
Prostate, feels great, laminated glass.
Gooooooooooooo TEAM!
Michael_H said...
I'm listening to Rush playing clips of Barney Frank speaking today. Ol' Barn is screeching about the need to be able to use this program to provide 'affordable housing' for the people who need it.
That means, of course, free homes for the people who defaulted on their loans, I'd bet.
It's bad enough that the people who play by the rules are likely to get stuck paying for this deal, but in the process those who did the wrong thing will get generous rewards for their efforts.
Amen!
It's not just the anger at "Fatcats" - it's all Americans who were fiscally responsible and played by the rules now told their tax dollars must go to "make their friend/neighbor/illegal alien in San Francisco "Whole Again" " by keeping them in "their sacred, no-money-down homes" that they couldn't afford in the first place, and can't afford now..
The fatcat's wallets would be settled just fine with 20 billion or so. The other 680 billion underlie the illegals, burger-flippers who got mansions, and the greedy Jewish speculators & trial lawyers cabals that invested in 20 properties to "flip".
My family is supposed to be punished because we thought it fiscally responsible, so we didn't move from a 400K home to invest in six 600K homes like a local landlord/liquor wholesaler merchant did? To pat taxes so a government Aid Fund can make the abovesaid "whole" and not evicted from his "Homes"?
And it puts a whole different spin on "Kelo", much to libertarian's detriment. Because most of the "victimized" sacred property owners were nothing but house-flippers who would have died in shame rather than live permanently in a rat and rubble choked New London, CT., shithole.
Original Mike said...
Only in Congress is 250 + 100 = 700.
Dick Durbin ain't known as the stupidest man in the Senate for nothin'.
Actually. Harry Reid holds that current title followed closely by Patrick Leahy.
Can we stick to the bailout agreement and circumstances surrounding it? Alex? FLS? jdeeripper?
From the Corner:
"Brett Baier: Probably no deal tonight [Rich Lowry]
He also described the meeting as angry at times, with lots of cross talk. Reports it didn't end well."
"Carl Cameron: Mood on Capitol Hill remarkably sour [Rich Lowry]"
I understood that Harry Reid was an LDS. Is that a cup of coffee I see in front of him?
Maybe it's chamomile tea.
You're actually jumping on Biden for saying television instead of radio?
Try these from your good buddy in the White House:
"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." September 29, 2000
OR
"I hope we get to the bottom of the answer. It's what I'm interested to know." April 26, 2000
And to think...YOU voted for him...TWICE.
I understood that Harry Reid was an LDS. Is that a cup of coffee I see in front of him?
There's even a photo.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/26/business/26bush.html
Take a look. That's our leadership.
Is it just me or is there something creepy about this picture? The way Harry Reid is staring directly at the camera reminds me of something from a horror film.
that picture of our national leaders gathered around a table trying to solve a problem fills me with despair..The combined IQ in that room is 17. Fortunately the American people are much smarter than our elected leadership. On both sides of the aisle.
God save the United States of America, because those to whom we entrust leadership can't find their asses with both hands in the dark.
Why is it when I hear talk about anger at the meeting I think of McCain and Obama surveying the room and glowering at each other while Bush repeats "This is really really serious!".
The image I'd like to believe is McCain standing up saying "This is f'g bullsh**! I'm not bailing those aholes out.". But with him I just hear "bipartisan" and that tingle in my leg is Harry & Nancy lifting my wallet...
The photograph controversy.
Reaching a new low.
How can the Republican Caucus not recognize the severity of the situation?
They recognize the severity of the ripoff!
Roger, Speaking of I.Q.'s...aren't there 5 Republicans at the table?
Roger, no it isn't a cup of coffee, unless of course the coffee hiding is under overturned cup.
And what's the deal with Bush? He appears to be rolling a joint.
Dodd, along with Frank, bullied banks to throw traditional lending restraints to the wind, precipitating this mess and he's telling Republicans to get their act together?
Shameless.
The Black Guy with his elbows on the table, tried so hard to look magisterial and authoritative.
And, don't think all the rest of them didn't snicker at his Blackness and think: "Get back out into the fields ".....
Agreed. The number one recipient of Fannie and Freddie dollars ought not be lecturing anyone on how to conduct this bailout debate.
Having said that I'm watching McCain close here. If he's serious about closing the deal he's probably going to have to do it without a good chunk of the Republican house. I think that's a risk he should take.
BTW I was referring to ricpic's post and Dodd above.
Sorry I won't be posting tomorrow, but the doors at Best Buy are opening early for that sale on flat screens. Buy two now for the price of one and pay nothing until April 2009. Thought I might pick up a bunch of digital cameras while I'm there, a limited edition U2 iPod, and maybe 10 or 15 Cameron Diaz DVDs and maybe a couple sofas at Rooms 'r' Us. Then I'm off on a three-day Carnival Cruise on the Fun Ship Elation to Corzemon or Carousel or Ibuprofen or something. Give me a chance to wear my Police '08 t-shirt and my two pairs of new Nikes. Glad I bought those tickets on Ebay for $600. Hope there's a Starbucks on the boat. I'm taking a bunch of mail-order catalogs to read, not that I'll have time what with the casino and all the good eating. I'm just glad to hear everything's fixed.
Michael--god I love these softballs--the only reason the combined IQ is over 10 is because there are 5 republicans at the table. otherwise it would 6. Unless you totally missed the point of my post, I have NO respect for any of our elected leadership, republican or democrat.
More Rick Lowry soundbites:
I was just talking to a Republican senator who noted how fast the attitude of Senate Democrats changed when they heard McCain was headed to Washington—they immediately were more concerned with getting Senate Republicans on board.
This is what I had hoped would happen. This, however, not so good:
My understanding is that there was a lot of pressure on Boehner at that meeting as the only one not on the same page as everyone else. He had to remind everyone that House Republicans are a different breed from Democrats or Senate Republicans.
Look, Boehner's my guy, most of the time. But I'm convinced this thing needs to close by tomorrow close of market. Not that it needs to be signed; it just needs to be clear a deal is in place. The votes, for better or worse, are not in Boehner's favor, and he'd better not play chicken too long.
Looks like I was right about the press selling the "Republicans are backing out (of the deal they never agreed to in the first place)" line.
Oops, that was Rich Lowry (NRO), not Rick Lowry.
Hey Michael: do you know why so many liquor stores in the south have drive in windows? Ans: so southern baptists don't have go inside and be seen by their congregants.
Do you know why you always invite two mormons to go fishing with you? If you invite one, he'll drink all your beer.
Apparently Obama has agreed to spend the night in DC. That's a bit of a move towards McCain's position. Don't be surprised if there's a concession on the debate.
"The other day there was a news story about common people struggling to pay their mortgage.
One example in the story was a Calif family. They owned five homes including rental investments!
I could not believe the journalist thought this family should be included in the story as a casualty of the mortgage crisis!"
It's been clear to me for awhile now that the average citizen bloke is being laughed at, regularly, by pol and journo alike. The only thing more idiotic is the torch some of my fellow blokes carry for one or the other of these senate chuckleheads vying to be our "great leader" in January. Talk about beclowning oneself.
Chris Dodd is a pantywaist.
Carry on.
The Democrats get more mileage out of a bad economy. They want to prolong it at least till after the election.
The last presidential candidate that had a secret plan was Richard Nixon--that puts Obama with his secret plan for the economy in good company
"I suspended my campaign, did an interview with Katie Couric, had lunch with some friends then went to Washington DC with the press and pretended to be part of the negotiations so working class folks would think I was working for them. Next I will pretend to do something tomorrow night that seems constructive rather than debate my opponent who will do a town hall meeting in front of 40 million Americans. But voters are so dumb they will think I am in night time meetings to save America. If I stay out of the public eye then they surely will conclude I must be working really hard."
I am John McCain and I approved this message.
The main point of contention between Democrats and Republicans, Frank said, is a proposal to give bankruptcy judges new power to modify mortgages for homeowners, an idea that is widely viewed as a bargaining chip. Obama has said the measure, which is fiercely opposed by the banking industry, should not be in the bill.
Finally, something that I can agree upon with Obama.
Meanwhile, House Democrats were still considering a plan to increase taxes to pay for a portion of the bailout, possibly by taxing stock transfers or levying a "surtax" on millionaires.
Jesus God help us!! They just can't stop themselves. Now they want to raise taxes even more in a situation where capital for the economy to survive is non-existant. These people and the Democrats especially have no sense. No common sense, no business sense. They are determined to destroy us all.
So tell us Matt--since your mind must not be made about whom you will vote for: would any of the debates change you mind? I rather doubt it--but do carry on. And if they wouldnt, then you are simply talking out of your ass.
The last presidential candidate that had a secret plan was Richard Nixon--that puts Obama with his secret plan for the economy in good company
Actually it was John Kerry, with his secret plan to end the war in Iraq.
Rev: I missed that, but course I never took Kerry seriously anyway. More to your point: Obama shares company with kerry and nixon--thats really impressive
John Kovac: As of now I'm skipper, and anybody who don't like it can get out and swim to Bermuda. What about that?
Gus Smith: I'll buy it.
Stanley 'Sparks' Garrett: Suits me. What about you, Miss?
Alice MacKenzie: I'm for it.
George 'Joe' Spencer: Yes, sir!
Charles D. 'Ritt' Rittenhouse: Well, if the rest agree.
Connie Porter: All right, Commissar, what's the course?
(Lifeboat, 1944)
And for an idea of just how stupid and reckless the rest of the world thinks the US is in this economic crisis here
We are being led into hell by jesters, clowns and idiots who would rather score tit for tat points in their petty partisan bickering.
I'm just amused at the idea that McCain would need to "prepare" for a foreign policy debate. Aside from a last-minute cram session to find out what Obama's foreign policy positions are this week I don't see what he'd need time to prepare for.
Maybe he needs time to prepare explanations for some of his previous "expert" opinion:
- “I believe that the success [in Iraq] will be fairly easy.” (2003)
- "I believe that we can win an overwhelming victory in a very short period of time." (2003)
- "When I voted to support this war, I knew it was probably going to be long and hard and tough, and those that voted for it and thought that somehow it was going to be some kind of an easy task, then I’m sorry they were mistaken. Maybe they didn’t know what they were voting for." (2007)
- “I think one of the biggest mistakes we made was underestimating the size of the task and the sacrifices that would be required. Stuff happens, mission accomplished, last throes, a few dead-enders. I’m just more familiar with those statements than anyone else because it grieves me so much that we had not told the American people how tough and difficult this task would be.” (2006)
- "There's not a history of clashes that are violent between Sunnis and Shiahs. So I think they can probably get along." (2003)
- "But post-Saddam Hussein Iraq going to be paid for by the Iraqis. They have billions of dollars of income. They have vast oil reserves. And I think they will pay for it." (2003)
- "I'm confident we're on the right course [in Iraq]" (2004)
- "The problem was not the fact that we went in, the problem was the mishandling of it for nearly four years." (2008)
- "As you know, there are Al Qaeda operatives that are taken back into Iran, given training as leaders, and they’re moving back into Iraq." (2008)
McCain is doing to Obama what Jesse Jackson suggested: cut his nuts off.
Obama is on TV, being reasonable and professorial. He's missing the outrage that so many Americans feel about the concept of bailout. McCain is milking this outrage.
The election may be decided in the next few days.
I've just made up my mind to vote Obama, but it doesn't look good for him right now.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walter: There is a house I want to buy.
Benny: Let's just cut to the chase, Okay? What do you want?
Walter: I want you to loan me $200,000 in cash.
Benny: No.
Walter: Benny!
Benny: You shout at me?
Walter: I shout at you! I need that money and you are going to loan it to me.
Benny: No, I won't!
Walter: Yes, you will!
Benny: No, No, No!
Walter: Yes, you will! I saved you ten times that in taxes last year.
Benny: So what?
Walter: Benny, if you don't loan me that money. I'll...
Benny: You'll what? Huh? You'll what?
Walter: I'll... not like you any more!
Benny: ...All right.
Walter: Thanks.
(The Money Pit, 1986)
I did not vote in this survey because the choices lacked:
❍ Make Barney Frank dress up in an Elmer Fudd hunting costume complete with hat with ear flaps tied on top and supplied with a wooden rifle and then compelled to run around the House singing, "Kill da waaaa-bit. Kill da waaaa-bit.
That would make all this watchable.
(Posted in error on the vomit entry vvv. May as well have left it down there.)
The big stumbling point seems to be the requirement that the interest rate on Chris Dodd's sooper special Countrywide mortgage must be adjusted to the actual market rate.
Plus, Barney Frank needs the weekend to kick out his current roommate in order to qualify for a low-income mortgage before the market completely tanks.
Concerned Citizen said...
Sorry I won't be posting tomorrow, but the doors at Best Buy are opening early for that sale on flat screens. Buy two now for the price of one and pay nothing until April 2009. Thought I might pick up a bunch of digital cameras while I'm there, a limited edition U2 iPod, and maybe 10 or 15 Cameron Diaz DVDs and maybe a couple sofas at Rooms 'r' Us. Then I'm off on a three-day Carnival Cruise on the Fun Ship Elation to Corzemon or Carousel or Ibuprofen or something. Give me a chance to wear my Police '08 t-shirt and my two pairs of new Nikes. Glad I bought those tickets on Ebay for $600. Hope there's a Starbucks on the boat. I'm taking a bunch of mail-order catalogs to read, not that I'll have time what with the casino and all the good eating. I'm just glad to hear everything's fixed.
You win, the most hilarious post of the day. Yahoo!
Chip - You've got my vote!
Although I'd like to see the entire negotiation process set to the music of Bugs Bunny Square Dance.
Mel Blanc was a genius.
Dust Bunny Queen said...
And for an idea of just how stupid and reckless the rest of the world thinks the US is in this economic crisis here
We are being led into hell by jesters, clowns and idiots who would rather score tit for tat points in their petty partisan bickering.
Yeah, and it all goes back to regulation. Nobody's gonna invest unless they know we regulate, and are very serious about it.
You are anti-regulation, why send people to this article?
They see us giving 700 Billion without discussing regulation first and foremost, and we are giving to the criminals that did all of this to begin with. This is a joke.
Integrity, this is Washington.
It's not tit for tat.
It's tits for tax, and twat for facts.
Gordon Gekko: The richest one percent of this country owns half our country's wealth, five trillion dollars. One third of that comes from hard work, two thirds comes from inheritance, interest on interest accumulating to widows and idiot sons and what I do, stock and real estate speculation. It's bullshit. You got ninety percent of the American public out there with little or no net worth. I create nothing. I own. We make the rules, pal. The news, war, peace, famine, upheaval, the price per paper clip. We pick that rabbit out of the hat while everybody sits out there wondering how the hell we did it. Now you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy, are you buddy? It's the free market. And you're a part of it. You've got that killer instinct. Stick around pal, I've still got a lot to teach you.
(Wall Street,1987)
David
What evidence do you have to support that this is looking bad for Obama? He has clearly come out against Paulson's plans and doesn't want CEO's to have a golden parachute. The economy issue is working for Obama because he sees the failure of leadership from Bush. That is the only reason McCain is putting on this show.
And BTW he has not suspended his campaign at all. He has just moved it to DC but pretended to say he has risen above the fray. I honestly think it depends who one supports in this campaign. I see it as an Obama victory because McCain is erratic and seeking political clout for something he has nothing to do with.
I'm fully confident that the same people who got us into this mess will get us out it - less a couple hundred billion $ or so.
GOD SAVE THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, BECAUSE THOSE TO WHOM WE ENTRUST LEADERSHIP CAN'T FIND THEIR ASSES WITH BOTH HANDS IN THE DARK.
IF THEY WERE SITTING ON THEIR HANDS!!!
To me, he just looks like he's paying close attention.
Like a chastened school boy at the adults table.
mcg said... Agreed. The number one recipient of Fannie and Freddie dollars ought not be lecturing anyone on how to conduct this bailout debate.
Top Recipients of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
Campaign Contributions, 1989-2008
1. Dodd, Christopher J - $133,900
2. Kerry, John - $111,000
3. Obama, Barack - $105,849
Obama did well considering his short time in the Senate.
"surtax" on millionaires...
We should have a surtax on politicians. Better yet, since all of them dropped the ball, they should all be made to forfeit every dime in their campaign funds and every dime in both party's funds to the government.
Leader of Senate: All fellow members of the Roman senate hear me. Shall we continue to build palace after palace for the rich? Or shall we aspire to a more noble purpose and build decent housing for the poor? How does the senate vote?
Entire Senate: FUCK THE POOR!
(History of the World Part 1, 1981)
Top Recipients of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
Campaign Contributions, 1989-2008
From PolitiFact:
"Corporations cannot give to candidates ... so the list adds up contributions from Fannie and Freddie employees and their families. Obama has received a lot of money during his presidential campaign, though, and Fannie and Freddie don't make his list of top 20 companies...
The New York Times looked at contributions from Fannie and Freddie's boards of directors and lobbyists, who are technically not employees. That analysis found Fannie and Freddie-related contributors gave $169,000 to John McCain and his related committees, compared with $16,000 to Obama and his related committees."
Uh oh
Somebody tell Kaus I'm exhausted.
This "emergency" seems to be contingent on something that politicians are used to hearing all the time, ie the danger that the economy will collapse do to a lack of confidence. A wolf cry that seems remote.
But still.. Are we really too big to fail? Or is our arrogance too big to recognize when we are really in trouble.
There are no trusted "wiseman" to save us this time.
China is not strong enough to bid and the Europeans would need an eternity just to agree to do it, let alone how.
Whoever runs McCain's campaign should recommend he do the debate tomorrow because he could then try to get points with the skeptical American public by telling them where he stands on the issue. If he skips the debate and Obama gets to do a town hall then Obama gets a big boost. McCain needs to show [even if it is untrue] that he can do two things at once. He can negotiate by day and talk to the American people at night to let them know what he thinks. I don't support McCain but if he shows up at the debates it can't hurt him and it might help.
Dole Office Clerk: Occupation?
Gladiator - The Roman Empire: Gladiator.
Dole Office Clerk: Did you kill last week?
Gladiator - The Roman Empire: No.
Dole Office Clerk: Did you try to kill last week?
Gladiator - The Roman Empire: Yeah.
Dole Office Clerk: Now listen this is your last week of unemployment insurance, either you kill somebody next week or we're going to have to change your status.
(History of the World Part 1, 1981)
Ping: Durbin's using financial crisis to extort redistribution of wealth from responsible homeowners to the profligate
Roger J = The combined IQ in that room is 17. Fortunately the American people are much smarter than our elected leadership. On both sides of the aisle.
No, they are not. As a pack, Americans are as idiotic as Iraqis or French.
As PM-mentor Lee Kwan Yew of Singapore says, democracy has it's points in favor of it, as long as you do not use a broad franchise and leave idiots in charge.
He also thinks the US Constitution is an antiquated artifact that cost America it's technological and educational lead in most fieldss and left America a wastrel debtor nation watching better nations eating our competitive lunch.
we are giving to the criminals that did all of this to begin with.
The criminals are the legislators. They are the ones who made this mess with their phony altruism and greed. They took money from the NAR and all the mortgage people to artificially inflate the real estate market to keep it going.
The worst offenders are the ones who are acting like they are appalled; on both sides of the aisle.
Before even one new regulation is passed, every legislator who took ten cents from these lobbyists and special interests should be investigated, indicted, convicted and imprisoned.
*Sharpens Pitchfork*
*Checks Greyhound Schedule*
Alright. Enough is too much. Let's go to DC!
Trooper, fix bayonets!
Whoever runs McCain's campaign should recommend he do the debate tomorrow because he could then try to get points with the skeptical American public by telling them where he stands on the issue.
Friday's debate is about foreign affairs, not the economy.
"As PM-mentor Lee Kwan Yew of Singapore says..."
We have no wily Jews in Singapore!
Remember: Cedarford hates America.
Trooper York said...
Dole Office Clerk: Occupation?
Gladiator - The Roman Empire: Gladiator.
Dole Office Clerk: Did you kill last week?
Gladiator - The Roman Empire: No.
Dole Office Clerk: Did you try to kill last week?
Gladiator - The Roman Empire: Yeah.
Dole Office Clerk: Now listen this is your last week of unemployment insurance, either you kill somebody next week or we're going to have to change your status.
(History of the World Part 1, 1981)
Bea Arthur. I thought I was the only one that owned this DVD or liked this movie.
Madeline Kahn is so funny in this thing. When Dom Deluise scratches his balls with the sceptor and burps. Great stuff.
The criminals are the legislators. They are the ones who made this mess with their phony altruism and greed.
There are criminals at every level. But the root cause of all of this is simple: people borrowed money and then didn't pay it back.
Those would be the people Barney Frank is insisting need assistance from the government. Fuck 'em: put them in work camps until they pay off their mortgages.
beldar said: Durbin's using financial crisis to extort redistribution of wealth from responsible homeowners to the profligate
Profligate -a fitting little name for this whole mess. Too bad it's not catchy.
Grim Reaper: Shut up, you American. You Americans, all you do is talk, and talk, and say "let me tell you something" and "I just wanna say." Well, you're dead now, so shut up.
(Monty Python and the Meaning of Life, 1983)
Peter V. Bella said...
we are giving to the criminals that did all of this to begin with.
The criminals are the legislators. They are the ones who made this mess with their phony altruism and greed. They took money from the NAR and all the mortgage people to artificially inflate the real estate market to keep it going.
The worst offenders are the ones who are acting like they are appalled; on both sides of the aisle.
Before even one new regulation is passed, every legislator who took ten cents from these lobbyists and special interests should be investigated, indicted, convicted and imprisoned.
I agree with this. They were all bought off and should be imprisoned.
Father: The mill's closed. There's no more work. We're destitute.
Children: Ohhhhh.
Father: I'm afraid I have no choice but to sell you all for scientific experiments.
(Monty Python and the Meaning of Life, 1983)
Revenant
They can change the topic. Why should McCain hold the debate hostage and wait for a deal to be made when he can easily talk to the American people and then go back Saturday morning and negotiate [if that is what he is actually doing].
krylovite
Thanks for pointing out the PolitiFact site. It really sets the record straight.
But the root cause of all of this is simple: people borrowed money and then didn't pay it back.
Those would be the people Barney Frank is insisting need assistance from the government. Fuck 'em: put them in work camps until they pay off their mortgages.
I whole heartily agree, but the legislators relaxed some of the laws, regulations, and standards, to allow these mortgages to be written. Follow the money trail of the NAR, Fred/Fan, and all the rest. These are the real evil special interests.
Durbin and the others talking about bankruptcies is a hoot. They do not represent the people nor do they care for our welfare. The do represent the bankruptcy attorneys who stand to make a killing convincing judges to rewrite mortgages.
They can change the topic.
So postponing the debate is completely unacceptable, but conveniently changing the topic at the last minute -- from a subject McCain's an expert in and Obama knows nothing about to something entirely different -- is acceptable?
What a load of bullshit. The American people have no need to hear Obama and McCain's opinions this Friday. The election isn't for another five weeks. Inasmuch as we need to hear from them at all, we only need to do so sometime before 11/4/08.
JP Morgan is now going to bail out WaMU. JP Morgan is bailing out companies with no fedral intervention.
Hmmm? I wonder? Is it too late to run Jamie Damon for president?
Matt--Obama is too cool and above the fray. His (long) statement to the press tonight was smooth, articulate and coherent. But he has no sense of the anger that the average Joe and Jodette feel about using federal money to help banks and their investors.
The people taking the hit here should be the shareholders and bondholders of the banks. But the Treasury plan will help them.
I favor the Treasury plan but the anger of the opposition is real and very understandable. Obama has trouble tapping into these feelings.
Follow the money trail of the NAR, Fred/Fan, and all the rest. These are the real evil special interests.
Sure, there's a lot of blame to go around. But the truth of the matter is that there wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for assholes borrowing money for homes they knew they couldn't afford. Trace back all the failed companies, all the worthless mortgage certificates, and at the end of every trail is a bunch of assholes whose eyes were bigger than their paychecks.
That's why I stick with what I said before -- if Republicans sign on to a bill that includes a bailout for those assholes, I'm not voting for any Republicans at all this year. *Some* damned party needs to represent personal responsibility.
Peter v. bella
You are ignorant.
There is huge federal intervention in the WAMU deal. FDIC came in at the close of business and told WAMU it was out of business and selling some of its assets to Morgan. I'm sure they set the price. FDIC will take the bones of WAMU and that will be costly. Time will tell what other federal support Morgan is getting to enable the deal.
If it is true that McCain actually jumped into the middle of the negotiations, screwed up the deal so he could try and substitute his own plan and get the credit for it, and if that ends up resulting in no plan being passed which in turn leads to the complete collapse of the economy then I pledge as a resident of the state of Arizona to personally launch a recall effort after the election.
I would love the scene; the illustrious, altruistic, gravitas laden buffoons led out of the Senate and House handcuffed to each other. They could be forced to do the perp walk from the legislature to the to the Federal courts.
Everyone loves a parade!
JP Morgan is now going to bail out WaMU. JP Morgan is bailing out companies with no fedral intervention.
The FDIC brokered the deal, thus intervening in a way that would prevent a run on the FDIC's resources. So there was lots of federal intervention. I know getting the facts isn't your strong suit, so better luck next time, there, Pete.
My wife's got rings on her fingers and bells on her shoes, but I'm not so sure about that cruise trip now. The candyman is in town. Goes by the name of Benson, Paulson, something.
Ann "Satan" Coulter -
THEY GAVE YOUR MORTGAGE TO A LESS QUALIFIED MINORITY.
In 1999, liberals were bragging about extending affirmative action to the financial sector. Los Angeles Times reporter Ron Brownstein hailed the Clinton administration's affirmative action lending policies as one of the "hidden success stories" of the Clinton administration, saying that "black and Latino homeownership has surged to the highest level ever recorded."
Meanwhile, economists were screaming from the rooftops that the Democrats were forcing mortgage lenders to issue loans that would fail the moment the housing market slowed and deadbeat borrowers couldn't get out of their loans by selling their houses.
A decade later, the housing bubble burst and, as predicted, food-stamp-backed mortgages collapsed. Democrats set an affirmative action time-bomb and now it's gone off.
In Bush's first year in office, the White House chief economist, N. Gregory Mankiw, warned that the government's "implicit subsidy" of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, combined with loans to unqualified borrowers, was creating a huge risk for the entire financial system.
Rep. Barney Frank denounced Mankiw, saying he had no "concern about housing." How dare you oppose suicidal loans to people who can't repay them! The New York Times reported that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were "under heavy assault by the Republicans," but these entities still had "important political allies" in the Democrats.
But he has no sense of the anger that the average Joe and Jodette feel about using federal money to help banks and their investors.
You're probably right about how the electorate will feel.
Me, I'm angry that the majority of the electorate pays little or no income tax and still feels like they have a right to complain about how income tax dollars are spent.
I know getting the facts isn't your strong suit, so better luck next time, there, Pete.
Oh really. Fact- JP Morgan could have said no.
If it is true that McCain actually jumped into the middle of the negotiations, screwed up the deal so he could try and substitute his own plan and get the credit for it
I see Eli's found the predictable talking point to push. Fits in perfectly with my 3:44 remarks. Now McCain gets the blame for the "collapse" of the nonexistent "deal". :)
Ann "Satan" Coulter
Now we can change the Satan to angel?
*Some* damned party needs to represent personal responsibility.
When you find one let me know. Also please find a party that does not think that self determination, self reliance, and individual initiative are not dirty words.
Me, I'm angry that the majority of the electorate pays little or no income tax and still feels like they have a right to complain about how income tax dollars are spent.
Agree. Let's take away the tax exempt staus of their campaign funds and the tax exempt status of the parties. They are not charitable organizations anyway.
@Eli Blake
Awful lotta "ifs" there I'm afraid.
When you find one let me know.
The Libertarians. Unfortunately they're nutty in other ways.
David said...
Peter v. bella
You are ignorant.
You are a moron. JP Morgan could have told Uncle Sam to piss up a rope. But they did not. That is leadership; the kind that is sorely lacking in DC from both parties.
Re: Boehner and melanoma.
My comment means that he is far too tan. It looks like he spends all his time in the sun or in a tanning booth. So he's a likely candidate for skin cancer. Lucky he has good health insurance.
Now, if Boehner is not caucasian, I'll be in the shower scrubbing the egg of my face.
No, Peter, you are ignorant. You said Morgan did the deal without federal help.
Here's the Wall Street Journal article on the subject:
"Federal regulators said WaMu has suffered an exodus of $16.7 billion in deposits since Sept. 15, leaving the Seattle thrift "with insufficient liquidity to meet its obligations." As a result, WaMu was in "an unsafe and unsound condition to transact business," according to the Office of Thrift Supervision.
While the exact structure of the transaction wasn't immediately known, J.P. Morgan is expected to acquire Washington Mutual's deposits and branches, as well as other operations. The deal isn't expected to result in any hit to the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp.'s bank-insurance fund, according to a person familiar with the arrangement. But it's likely that another arm of government would have to pick up the tab. Some analysts have worried that a WaMu failure could cost more than $20 billion."
But after the [White House] meeting broke up about an hour later, the top Republican on the Senate Banking Committee, Sen. Richard C. Shelby (Ala.), who strongly opposes the bailout, told reporters, "I don't believe we have an agreement."...
What is being implied here, but isn't explicitly stated is that the Democrats went around the Republican leadership in the Senate to what they thought were enough votes to pass it despite the opposition of the Republican leadership.
In the House, it was worse. The Democrats totally ignored the Republicans, and then are whining because they aren't on board. Of course they aren't on board - they were never really consulted on the "deal". Pelosi has been cutting them out from day one. Compounding this, was her decision to adjourn the House this summer while they were still trying to debate related matters. Remember the two days when they tried to continue, with the lights, C-Span, air conditioning, etc. being turned off on her orders? If Barney Frank is pissed at anyone, it should be Nancy Pelosi, and not the Republicans.
David,
Where does it say that JP Morgan was mandated, forced, coerced, or even asked to step in?
Even if they were, they could have said no.
I wonder how Nacy Pelosi would look in one of those orange prison suits? Hmmm? Her hubby is an investment banker isn't he? Yep, no ethics problem in their house.
Revenant
Oh I see. So you don't want to change the debate topic because it could hurt your candidate if they do. Why not just say that? McCain will lose the debate if we dare talk about the crisis so lets cancel? You don't seem to understand that indeed there are 5 weeks before the election. Therefore everything McCain and Obama do is part of their campaign.
Why would it hurt to talk to the American people when there is no negotiating to be done Friday evening? If you don't see McCain's action as craven political theatre then you are really out to lunch.
I see Eli's found the predictable talking point to push. Fits in perfectly with my 3:44 remarks. Now McCain gets the blame for the "collapse" of the nonexistent "deal". :)
Keep that in mind. The Democrats thought they had been successful at making a deal by going around the Republican leadership in both the House and the Senate.
It was pure spin on their part. There never was a real deal, without all the stake holders being represented. Rather, it was wishful thinking to get the Republicans stampeded into supporting their plan. And it was spin designed to sabotage McCain. They rushed to get it done AFTER McCain announced that he was breaking off campaigning to participate.
While "affirmative action housing" clearly is the impetus for bad bank loaning practices, there are a lot of people who live in houses that I cannot understand how they afford. Clearly, there were "affirmative action" loans made to people who are not poor minorities, but rather say $100,000 types. Living in $600,000 houses without the benefit of the death of the parents. Now, the 2200 payment is 4400 and they can't afford it. If the Bush administration really was paying attention, they should have been screaming for years. The president can go on TV (just like Roosevelt in '29) anytime he wants. Say there is a crisis. Appoint a commission to study it. Petitiion congress to do the same, etc.
This is a perfect example of why the "Framers" did not believe the federal government should directly assist citizens. It is an entropic slippery slope with every action sending our great experiment further into the abyss. Every major area the government has moved into has been hopelessly damaged beyond repair. Look at health care. Look at transportation, and now the entire housing market. These can never function normally again.
Has Biden surfaced yet? He is a Senator isn't he? A senior Senator and part of the Senate leadership?
What's his take on this? How come he is being kept away from the media? No interviews on the financial crisis? No Katie Couric or Charlie Gibson?
Where oh where is clueless Joe?
Clueless Joe is watching Hillary in the bullpen and waiting to be removed from the game.
David said: "Accordingly, I do not think the plan will work until there is a global solution to mortgage foreclosures. This will involve very unpalatable actions, especially to conservatives. We will have to make global modifications to the terms of existing mortgages, both interest rate concessions and principal reductions, if the foreclosure wave is to be broken."
See Henry George. There's a price to be paid for greed.
".... Make no mistake, we are on the edge of the second Great Depression in the last 100 years. The plan that Congress seems about to approve is not going to do the job. Ideology is going to have to go out the window. Events are overwhelming ideology."
There are no solutions except in ideology. We just need to rediscover the right and true ideology -- i.e. the correct principles. The dark truth at the center of the void in the souls of both Democrats and Republicans is that they have no ideology, nor principles.
Burn, baby, burn. A word to the wise -- stock up your pantries. Marvel at the perfect storm from the relative safety of your front porch.
Can anyone tell me where the government has this 250 billion or so of cash to purchase the first installment of these secrities? Or do we just print it?
Can anyone tell me where the government has this 250 billion or so of cash to purchase the first installment of these secrities? Or do we just print it?
Usually the government issues debt, i.e. bonds, to cover such expenditures. It is entirely possible the purchase will be made *with* bonds. The bonds are paid off either by collecting taxes, issuing more bonds (i.e. paying off one credit card with another), or "printing money".
The problem is that unless the "banks" have cash, they are unable to make loans. They cannot make a mortgage by giving a builder or homeowner a bond. Someone has to pony up the cash to buy the bonds. 250B is many times the usual receipt from a bond issue. If we do this we will be backing our debt with defaulted mortgages. Just more of the shell game that got us here in the first place.
We will have to make global modifications to the terms of existing mortgages, both interest rate concessions and principal reductions, if the foreclosure wave is to be broken."
The root cause of the crisis is that people aren't repaying the money they borrowed. Your solution is to tell them they don't have to repay the money they borrowed. "Idiotic" is too mild a description for that plan.
You can't solve a credit crisis by telling people they don't have to repay their creditors. That much ought to be glaringly obvious to anyone.
My citation above to Henry George may have been enigmatic. In that context I meant to offer it as a principled basis for David's proposed global "principal reductions," which he sees as pragmatically necessary to stave off the wave of mortgage foreclosures that continues to threaten our economic base. Thomas Paine expressed the same idea in his essay titled Agrarian Justice.
The govt gets the cash from the public, by selling government debt.
They cannot make a mortgage by giving a builder or homeowner a bond. Someone has to pony up the cash to buy the bonds.
Someone needs to pony up the cash to buy the bonds when (a) people try to withdraw their funds and (b) the bank doesn't have enough cash on hand to give to them. Until then, no, nobody needs to pony up the cash.
The problem is that there are a lot of securities out there that nobody trusts anymore, and nobody's sure who has how much of what, or how much of what they do have is really stable. There's a lot of uncertainty, so nobody's willing to accept those securities as being worth anything. US bonds don't have that problem (yet, anyway). Exchanging US bonds for mortgage securities would allow people to trust those portfolios again. The US government assumes the risk associated with the mortgages. Bear in mind that we don't know, yet, what the return on those mortgages securities will be -- but unlike private sector lenders, the US government has deep enough pockets to cover that risk.
Can anyone tell me where the government has this 250 billion or so of cash to purchase the first installment of these secrities? Or do we just print it?
Uh, we just print it.
Welcome to Weimar.
Die Fahne Hoch!
(Actually, I'm waiting for the first snarky Objectivist to post, "THIS IS JOHN GALT!")
This plan needs to fail; the banks that brought it on, the financial entreprenuers who created third and fourth order derivatives, and those relatively few idiot consumers who undertook mortgages and couldnt even read the terms of their mortgage. Their stupidity has come home to roost. Most Americans will weather whatever coming economic storms because they are responsible and live within their means. I thought liberals believed in darwin and natural selection--natural selection is now in full operation and its going to slap the shit out of a bunch of idiots. the best thing that could happen to this economy is the realization that credit is not unlimited.
Might it not be better to reduce the principal, renogotiate the terms, and make the house affordable and OFF the market? The other option is the govt. owning a boatload of houses and the housing prices remaining depressed. Just as the CEO's can't take a golden parachute, the owner would have to repay the subsidy upon sale of the house. Eventually, they will not be upside down and the house will appreciate.
Revenant..You mean the US TAXPAYER has deep enough pockets to cover the risk
Revenant,
So predictable. Such a way with words.
A healthy economy is one where those newly embarking on life don't have to go into hock to the already-rich in order to just have a piece of ground on which to stand, work, and sleep. No wonder the poor we have with us always. Now, if somebody goes into hock to buy a big fabulous house, that's their problem.
IF we're going to have a bailout, we should start from the ground up -- not on Wall Street.
And of course, Peter Bella changes the subject when he's caught out. You said JP Morgan is bailing out companies with no fedral intervention.
Fact - JP Morgan bailed out WaMu only with massive federal intervention. True, they could have chosen not to, but the fact that the FDIC made the deal happen was the key point of the deal. So, in other words, there was a bailout with federal intervention. Don't change the topic now that you've been shown (once again) to be a no-talent assclown who doesn't know what he's talking about.
Oh, and hello everyone, I'm back. All's well in Houston. Got power back over a week ago, and things are getting back to near normal.
Might it not be better to reduce the principal, renogotiate the terms, and make the house affordable and OFF the market.
So a contract is no longer a contract? By government fiat? What next, reduce the principal on all of these people's credit card balances too? You know, they get to keep the furniture and big screen TVs they could not afford, along with the nice cars they bought on credit too?
At what point do we hold people responsible for their decisions. I asked this before; if they had lawyers look over the contracts and mortgages and at the closings, what responsible attorney would have let their clients sign these mortgages?
We have poor because we have a group of people who do not make the effort to get educated and earn a living. We have women who amke 8.00 per hour, are 22 and have 5 kids with 5 different non-husbands. And most of all we have millions who allow the government to take their money and give it to these people. With no risk of starvation and homelessness, there is no motvation for far too many people. After taking care of those who have true disabilities (other than being fat and lazy) there needs to be a real requirement to earn your keep. Those at the ground already got help; a house they shouldn't have for a payment that is not based in reality. Why bail them out? They should be renting.
The problem is that there are a lot of securities out there that nobody trusts anymore, and nobody's sure who has how much of what, or how much of what they do have is really stable. There's a lot of uncertainty, so nobody's willing to accept those securities as being worth anything. US bonds don't have that problem (yet, anyway). Exchanging US bonds for mortgage securities would allow people to trust those portfolios again. The US government assumes the risk associated with the mortgages. Bear in mind that we don't know, yet, what the return on those mortgages securities will be -- but unlike private sector lenders, the US government has deep enough pockets to cover that risk.
Bingo. It's all well and good to talk about how there shouldn't be any bailouts of irresponsible actors, but the situation has gotten a lot more serious than that. The issue here is that uncertainty and a lack of confidence in the financial system can snowball into a total meltdown unless something is done, and the only player with enough "something" is Uncle Sam. The original Paulson plan was flawed, but that doesn't mean some sort of bailout should not be done.
Revenant said: "...unlike private sector lenders, the US government has deep enough pockets to cover that risk."
The government's pockets are ultimately only as deep as the pockets it can snatch taxes out of -- i.e. ours and our children's. What happens when taxes are raised even higher than their already insane levels to cover this $700 billion bailout and the burgeoning social security debacle, and more and more people go under as a result of the increasing tax burden, or when people find a fool-proof way to hide their incomes from Uncle Sam? Those T-bonds might become as worthless as the bogus mortgage securities that are giving the economy such fits now.
The govt gets the cash from the public, by selling government debt.
It might help to say that the point of getting it from the public, rather than printing it, is so that the public doesn't ask the economy to do something for it at the same time the government is asking the economy to do something for it.
It could also tax it away but that isn't so good for the economy, at current rates.
The point of the government holding the toxic securities is that the government doesn't have to mark to market, and can wait out any storm.
It may make money on the things in the end. Nobody knows.
``The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent'' doesn't apply to the government, in short.
No matter how you put it, we are already planning to bail out all these funny mortgages. We should hold our collective noses and do it in a way that is least expensive to the taxpayer and has the best possible outcome for the taxpayer. Stabilizing the housing market is central to the process. We've already been screwed over, let's just get it over the best way we can.
Hey ho say no to the bailout!
somefeller
Welcome back. No power is a beatch! We went 16 days without power after Frances, and another 7 days after Jeanne, back to back. Most frustrating is driving by your pad every night seeing no lights on when across the street they have power. I think we made 1 night without A/C, and of course it's usually Africa hot after hurricane. Do not miss it.
The "let the fuckers suffer" idea sure sounds reasonable if those were the only ones who will. If our economy collapses that idealistic theory is going to be recognized as the hogwash it is.
Sure, in an ideal world, the people who aren't paying their creditors ought to suffer the full brunt of the consequences of their actions. And that includes homeowners who supposedly got "suckered" into supposedly "predatory" loans. I don't have a lot of sympathy for them.
But you know what, holding fast and firm to that ideal is gonna mean a ton of collateral damage. A lot of people who were otherwise responsible are going to suffer. A lot of people who have perfectly respectable fixed-rate mortgages, with full 20% down payments, are now underwater. Something happens to their jobs, boom, they don't have home equity to ride it out. Companies can't get access to the credit they we planning to use to fund capital investments and expansion, new jobs don't get created. That's already happened with Caterpillar.
It is sadistic to be so focused on letting the fuckers suffer that we'd be unwilling to provide some relief for the rest. Inevitably, easing some of the burden on the innocent means the guilty are gonna suffer less than they would otherwise. We have to accept a certain amount of that.
Sure, since the Democrats and a limp President are behind this, it's probably going to tilt the balance farther towards the moral hazard end of the scale than I'd like. Well, tough, we dance with the one that brung us here. I think Boehner oughta fight kicking and screaming for another 18 hours to get some conservative compromises in place, and then its time to punt.
"What happens when taxes are raised even higher than their already insane levels to cover this $700 billion bailout and the burgeoning social security debacle...?"
Taxes are already so high that the US is losing its competitive edge as a place to locate a business. Any further escalation will spur a flight from the US of businesses capable of doing so, at which point it'll be over for us as a serious world power (other than militarily). It might take 20 years or more, but that would be where it ended up.
For some people, that is the goal. Unfortunately for them, the reality will probably end up looking like the highly stratified "high-class uber-wealthy elite" and "everyone else" one can see in Europe and elsewhere. I say "unfortunately" because the folks that hold such a vision as their goal aren't ordinarily part of that uber-wealthy group, although they generally fancy themselves (vainly) as part of the elite that would end up holding the reins.
Idiots.
Sure, since the Democrats and a limp President are behind this, it's probably going to tilt the balance farther towards the moral hazard end of the scale than I'd like. Well, tough, we dance with the one that brung us here. I think Boehner oughta fight kicking and screaming for another 18 hours to get some conservative compromises in place, and then its time to punt.
While I don't agree with the assumptions here, this is good advice for conservatives. While the general principle of a bailout may be unpopular, it is in general a necessary policy, and if conservatives find themselves on the wrong end of this, they will likely lose both in the court of public opinion and with the investor class that has helped form the financial backbone of the GOP for years.
garage mahal - thanks for the welcome. Lack of AC wasn't so bad when I lost power, because Houston had an unseasonable cold spell during those days. But, I was happy to have it back when it came. And one more thing - while I'm supporting Obama 100%, doncha think that Hillary would have been collecting scalps by the dozen over the past couple of weeks?
John Boner.
'nuff said.
Somefeller,
if Hillary was the candidate this election would have been over weeks ago. McCain would've been "Dole '96"'d and it'd all be over but the counting.
somefeller, I glad you're up and running again, too. My brother and his family spent a week up here with us and my parents waiting for his power to come back on. He went home to a bit of a mess, but thankfully no serious home damage. Hope you can say the same.
Oh, and I agree, with Hillary on either spot of the Dem ticket this one would be over.
200!
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