“How’s your boy?” Bush asked, referring to Webb’s son, a Marine serving in Iraq.And then there's the part where Webb supposedly could barely control his impulse to punch Bush in the face. Sources say.
“I’d like to get them out of Iraq, Mr. President,” Webb responded, echoing a campaign theme.
“That’s not what I asked you,” Bush said. “How’s your boy?”
“That’s between me and my boy, Mr. President,” Webb said coldly, ending the conversation on the State Floor of the East Wing of the White House.
ADDED: There's a lot of talk in the comments. I just want to say that I don't believe that Bush responded to Webb quite like that. I don't believe Webb was quite like that either. He sounds mental. I want to know who told the anecdote, because the whole thing is phrased strangely. It compliments neither man.
Posts
164 comments:
Gee, I wonder who reported that?
Classless.
Webb, as a former military officer, should know better - and does know better. This isn't going to help him, other than putting goodwill in the Kos Kidz Children of the Corn bank account for when he does something "inexplicably" conservative.
Good for Webb.
Get used to it, brownshirts.
I'm with Tim. That was incredibly rude. Yet, the commenters at Wonkette are ecstatic, naming Webb everything from sexiest man in America to next President. I don't know that our constitutional republic is in permanent trouble. But this looks to be an ugly couple of years.
Thanks, Dave. Nice contribution to the ugliness. On cue, even.
Oh yes, how RUDE of the Plebe to not answer the Emperor's direct question to His satisfaction. We are not amused...
How rude. I was going to ask whatever happened to respect for the office, but that's been going downhill since JFK days; I thought it had reached its nadir with Clinton's idiocies. I guess not.
If accurate, this encounter shows a nearly incredible level of tone-deafness on Webb's part. How does he hope to accomplish anything with such an adversarial attitude? I suppose Webb is now being hailed as "speaking truth to power" or something, but really all he did was behave like a petulant teen. Way to go, Jim! I'm sure all Virginians are so very proud to have elected you to the senate.
Thanks, Dave. Nice contribution to the ugliness. On cue, even.
Boohoohoo. Gonna cry about Godwin's Law next?
It's starting to materialize out of the ether: this whole switch parties and run for the senate thing was actually the first step towards running for president. That's what this is all about with Webb.
Incredible ESP you have! Next, please tell us what Casey Sheehan would think about his mom's protest.
If accurate, this encounter shows a nearly incredible level of tone-deafness on Webb's part.
Oh right, and Bush has perfect pitch.
I s'pose you folks missed the whole deal about Americans (and Iraqis) wanting our troops out of Iraq. Perhaps Bush should listen to the answers he's being given, rather than being "bold and resolute" in asking the same wrong questions over and over.
Bush is such a petulant, spoiled wastrel of a brast. He can't show the father of a soldier some respect, being rude to him as if Webb is Bush's subordinate, which he is not!
The urge to punch such a rude scoundrel is understandable but not something that should have been repeated.
Lost in his stupidity and incompetence is the fact that Bush is also a major league asshole.
I see that Webb's answer was testy and nonresponsive to his question, but non-assholes (or people whose concern is genuine) let that go.
I guess you'd like to punch everyone in the face who disagrees with you on any issue. Women too, I assume, since you're here on a woman's blog.
More phenomenal mind-reading skills. All based on the word 'brownshirt'. I am in awe.
When Webb said: “I’d like to get them out of Iraq, Mr. President.”
The smart thing for Bush to say would be: "So would I (first name), we just wanna make sure things are stable enough first," followed by a quick change of subject (or addressee).
But when has Bush _ever_ said the smart thing?
Webb's only rudeness was not deferring to the diplomatic and communicative incompetence of Bush.
The president was the one being incredibly rude.
Freder, you've got to be kidding. This was a private reception, not a press conference. Webb reportedly refused to stand in the receiving line -- he wouldn't even shake the president's hand. That's just juvenile, just as it was juvenile for Webb to interject divisive politics at a simple meet-and-greet. Like him or not, the president is the leader of our country and the Commander in Chief. I don't care what Webb's personal feelings are, he owes deference to the office and should be mature enough to act like an adult when meeting the single most power person on the planet.
" on the State Floor of the East Wing of the White House"
I'm curious, was this during a formal meeting or a meet in the hall type of thing.
It sounded like Bush was asking a sincere question and Webb tried to turn it into politcal hay. And when the President of the United States didn't turn red-faced and stammer an apology, reiterating his question, Webb turned ugly.
There is something missing in the reporting, and that would be context. Was this supposed to be just small talk on the President's part? Genuine interest in the son's welfare?
The spinmeisters are certainly out in full force, however.
How rude. I was going to ask whatever happened to respect for the office...
What a slavish mentality Bush followers have.
This is the guy who told the country that it was necessary to invade Iraq, which we now know was not the case.
If he wanted to express his concern, fine, but when he gets a short answer from the father of a marine over there, he should STFU.
Webb showed more respect than Bush deserves.
The return of nTodd! Who still doesn't get why some people not like such words "brownshirts" tossed at them and therefore defends it. Sheesh.
****
I think Michael Farris' first two paragraphs are right on, in depicting the conversation as it should have gone.
The article says "echoing a campaign theme." Well, it seems to me that it is ALSO expressing what is no doubt Webbs ACTUAL feelings with regard to his son, in response to the President's direct question about said son.
I mean, President Bush asked. Even the president doesn't get to micromanage the answers to questions he spontaneously decides to ask.
In any case, mountain out of a molehill. I hope we (I mean the nation, not this thread) don't waste too much time on this. In the relative scheme of things, it strikes me as a little thing.
So, which lion ended up on top?
If Bush had a shred of decency, he wouldn't be able to make eye contact with Jim Webb, let alone demand direct answers about his son.
asks inappropriate questions
The President is the Commander in Chief of Webb's son.
Webb's a pig. He's just indulging in that Scot-Irish "can't keep my mouth shut" bombast that he so eloquently celebrates.
The President is the Commander in Chief of Webb's son.
...which gives him (military) authority over Webb's son, not Webb.
"Incredible ESP you have! Next, please tell us what Casey Sheehan would think about his mom's protest."
It doesn't take ESP to answer that one.
I'm guessing it would be hard to vote on bills from jail.
Great point!
If Webb walks around with so much anger that he cannot answer a simple polite query about his son, who is under Bush's command, without turning it into an ugly political incident, then he is not acting like a professional.
He was not elected to the Senate to treat Bush like one of the Kos Kidz would.
Bush went out of his way to engage Webb, to break the ice. Obviously he did not realize the man was avoiding him because of anger issues.
The campaign is over. He is supposed to be an adult in his new job.
The return of nTodd! Who still doesn't get why some people not like such words "brownshirts" tossed at them and therefore defends it. Sheesh.
Hohoho! Look at somebody who still doesn't get why they're called 'brownshirts'! Maybe if you took time off from your Bush worship, you'd figure it out...
Good for Webb.
Get used to it, brownshirts.
I am afraid it is you and your ilk that are wearing the brownshirts, Dave.
I have no doubt that the President's inquiry was sincere and heartfelt and is another example of how he actually cares about the troops - even one who is the son of a classless political enemy.
The same people calling Bush rude and an asshole over this would be saying the same thing if he had not asked about Webb's son. Only then he would have been an uncaring rude asshole.
I assume that Webb's son has more class than his father and would have treated the President with the respect the office deserves.
Respect, unfortunately, is not something many liberals are familiar with these days though.
Oh yes, my guess is Bush would have laid Webb out if he had swung - then the Secret Service could have cleaned up the mess.
There is no one as close minded and dogmatic as a leftist.
Stay the course.
He was not elected to the Senate to treat Bush like one of the Kos Kidz would.
That's right! He was elected to meekly answer whatever question the Dauphin deigns to direct his way. How dare he reframe things? Next, he'll be acting like the Senate is a co-equal branch of government! The horror...
Well doyle and dave and ntodd, your responses are pretty much as I expected. Worthelss pissantry.
I don't doubt Webb's sincerity that he cannot stand Bush. He was elected however to get things done. An inability to cross the aisle and work with an opponent speaks poorly of him. I suspect he'll have similar difficulty in his own party, as disagreement means distance to Mr. Webb.
What's more, he's harmed his own son. Imagine how he must be reacting when his compatriots know that his Dad snubbed the President, their commander.
And this kind of grade school antagonism, this endless punchiness, is what I thought might resolve a bit after the Democrats beat the GOP. But no, it's worse. Divisive and ugly in victory, and divisive and ugly in defeat: the New Democrats.
The same people calling Bush rude and an asshole over this would be saying the same thing if he had not asked about Webb's son.
It's not that he asked about Webb's son, it's that, when he didn't get "Jolly good sir and thanks very much for asking!" for a response, he was a bully about it.
Well doyle and dave and ntodd, your responses are pretty much as I expected. Worthelss pissantry.
How rude of you!
What's more, he's harmed his own son. Imagine how he must be reacting when his compatriots know that his Dad snubbed the President, their commander.
Why imagine when you can read their minds? C'mon, you can do it1
The conservatives here are glossing over Bush's fundamental rudeness. He asks a question. He gets an answer. he doesn't like an answer and snaps at a member of the another co-equal branch of government, and father of a soldier (unlike Bush).
OK. If conservatives really think this is acceptable behavior it points up the incredible boorishness of modern con's.
As far as the whole punching thing, it strikes me as a figure of speech that got exageeratted in the reteling.
Good grief this is unimportant stuff. Bush tried to start a conversation. Webb rebuffed him. Bush rebuffed back. Big deal.
NONONO! This perfectly encapsulates how corrupt and incivil the Democrat Party is, and how they clearly will not be able to govern starting in January, and will lose the Congress and get slaughtered in the 2008 Presidential campaign.
The New Democrats, ruder than the Old Democrats. Get used to being a minority party again, loosers!
If the conversation is as reported, it doesn't require ESP to figure out who provided the direct quotes. It surely wasn't the junior Bush.
"Classless" and "rude" are adjectives more appropriately attached to our fearless leader -- the one who sought out Webb so that he could needle him about the fact that his son is in Iraq and there's not a damned thing that Webb can do about it.
Liberals continue to be unable to separate the private from the political, and that's a damn shame. A simple "hi, how's the family?" is now a trigger for political bloviation to begin.
Sigh. It's like that article in the SF Chronicle a while back about how liberals are finding it unpalatable to even associate with people who lean right. Not that the righties are quoting Limbaugh all the time or waving guns around, it's just that the left can't stand the notion of talking with disgusting people who vote Republican any more than normal people would want to hang out with a child molester.
Oh, and it's also funny how the left has convinced itself that they are so utterly powerless underneath the hell of the Vast, Right-Wing Conspiracy that petty acts of spite are greeted with cheers and applause for being so "brave."
There is something missing in the reporting, and that would be context. Was this supposed to be just small talk on the President's part?
It was a meet-and-greet.
The Hill reported: At a private reception held at the White House with newly elected lawmakers shortly after the election...
The WaPo article also quotes Webb as trotting out No offense to the institution of the presidency as if that excuses the fact that he was childish, even before the verbal sparring. Refusing to stand in a receiving line to shake the president's hand has to be among the most idiotic "protests" ever.
You are incredibly socially inept, aren't you?
Classic! Of course not. But then again, on the internet, nobody knows you're a dog. Don't fall into the trap of assuming you know anything about anyone participating in an online conversation.
Liberals continue to be unable to separate the private from the political, and that's a damn shame. A simple "hi, how's the family?" is now a trigger for political bloviation to begin.
Because dog knows expressing that you'd like your son to come home from a quagmire isn't a personal thing, and they should just shut up and answer the question as expected.
I was struck by the wonkette tone, or lack of it:
"2007 is going to be awesome.
Really, just imagine Reagan’s secretary of the Navy and the new senator from Virginia killing the junior Bush with his own hands
"
The Wash Post has a different telling of the encounter where Bush upbraided a parent of a soldier sering in Bush's War.
"How's your boy?" Bush asked, referring to Webb's son, a Marine serving in Iraq.
I'd like to get them out of Iraq, Mr. President," Webb responded, echoing a campaign theme.
"That's not what I asked you," Bush said. "How's your boy?"
"That's between me and my boy, Mr. President," Webb said coldly, ending the conversation on the State Floor of the East Wing of the White House.
This is in keeping with other accounts where Bush has been highly rude to family members of soldiers when those family members won't march in lockstep to Our Leader's Great and Victorious themes.
A simple "hi, how's the family?" is now a trigger for political bloviation
Except Bush's question was more like "How's your son who's fighting the war I started on false pretenses and have no intention of ending even though it's a worsening disaster? You better say 'fine' goddamnit!"
Refusing to stand in a receiving line to shake the president's hand has to be among the most idiotic "protests" ever.
Indeed, the most idiotic. EVER. Protests should only be something big, like lighting yourself on fire or something. Otherwise people should simply behave.
But then again, on the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.
Not true.
Webb's anger and lack of civility speak for themselves. Had the Democrats offered the voting public anyone better than Bush in 2000 and especially 2004, none of these problems would exist.
So this continual Bush is a stupid, insensitive, jerk outlook is only pointing out your own failure not Bush's.
Never too impressed when someone's basic instinct is to want to slug someone.
Everyone is getting all huffy over hearsay reports of a conversation that may or may not have occured as represented. Do you think the original reporter may have put his own personal spin on it? Hmmmm.
Screenshots or it didn't happen (as the young people who play video games say). Put up or shut up as we old farts say. Proof.
It's not that he asked about Webb's son, it's that, when he didn't get "Jolly good sir and thanks very much for asking!" for a response, he was a bully about it.
Had Webb responded with "He is doing fine, Mr President, but as you know I want him and his fellow Marines home soon" then that would have been a good, respectful answer.
The fact that Webb ignored the question about his son and only spoke a political response is what generated the President's retort.
At any rate, the whole thing is much ado about nothing. Liberals see Bush as the bad guy (surprise, surprise) and conservatives see Webb as the villain.
I do agree with one thing though - this whole incident has probably made Webb's son very uncomfortable. I feel for the guy.
ntodd and doyle show us all how base, lame, childish and wholly obstructive the New Democrats can be.
I've met 6th-graders with more composure. Victory hasn't brought any sense to you, it's deepended your myopia and anger.
So go on, stamp your feet, punch wildly, and mouse-roar some more. You won, you deserve to act like drunken footballers.
Joan, the context I was more interested in would be -- what was Bush asking the other newly elected? Was he inquiring about their families as well?
This whole report seems distinctly odd to me. Odd in that so much is missing.
Had the Democrats offered the voting public anyone better than Bush in 2000 and especially 2004,
Ah yes the laziest form of Bush apology.
A) Gore did win the popular vote in 2000.
B) Kerry was an admittedly poor candidate but I can't control what every American thinks.
If people realized earlier how horrible Bush was, they would have put up with the windsurfing Frenchman. Remember that was 51-49 too.
I think this statement is supposed to include me and my comment: There is no one as close minded and dogmatic as a leftist.
I know this one is in response to me: Maybe if you took time off from your Bush worship, you'd figure it out...
LOL.
Try again, oh misguided ones.
Doyle, I'm not offering a Bush apology, I'm telling you that criticizing Bush only exposes your own failures.
Last time I checked, popular votes don't count. At least according to the Constitution.
The story is weird, the encounter was weird, it's all a bunch of Washington weirdness.
It would be interesting to know who told the anecdote: Who benefits?
As to the truth of the story and whether it is or is not "hearsay," the Washington Post says:
"Webb [...] in an interview yesterday [...] confirmed the exchange between him and Bush."
If one of the participants provides the dialog, it's not hearsay; it might not be accurate, but it's not hearsay. Of course, the Post does not say that Webb provided the dialog, but if he was speaking to the Post about the conversation, either he provided it or declined to correct it. In either case, it's fair to credit Webb.
A) Gore did win the popular vote in 2000.
And yet Gore is still not the President. Nor will he ever be. So could you guys take the Gore/Lieberman bumper stickers (and the Kerry/Edwards ones too) off your cars, please?
B) Kerry was an admittedly poor candidate but I can't control what every American thinks.
So many smart-ass retorts, so little time.
MadisonMan said...
Joan, the context I was more interested in would be -- what was Bush asking the other newly elected? Was he inquiring about their families as well?
I read the basic Bush question as an attempt to be polite on a personal level with Webb.
I can imagine that with other new members (w/o known sons in Iraq), the polite chat question would have been:
"How are you doing getting settled into your new job?"
"How does your spouse like Washington?"
"How bout those Skins?"
"we gonna have much snow this winter?"
etc
etc
polite ice breaking talk in a group that was mostly Dems.
I deduced this from the fact that you think it is perfectly acceptable to ask a near stranger at, what amounts to a business meeting, a personal question, and when he/she refuses to answer the question or changes the subject, continue to pursue the issue.
Bush is the Commander in Chief of our armed forces and thus it was perfectly natural for him to ask this question of a man who has a son serving in those armed forces.
Again, had he not asked, I could see Webb telling the media that Bush was an uncaring SOB for not asking.
Nor will he ever be.
How have your electoral predictions gone recently?
So could you guys take the Gore/Lieberman bumper stickers (and the Kerry/Edwards ones too) off your cars, please?
I don't have a car, but if I did I'd be disinclined to take them off now. "Don't blame me, I voted for..."
So many smart-ass retorts, so little time.
Take all the time you need.
ntodd and doyle show us all how base, lame, childish and wholly obstructive the New Democrats can be.
I'm not a Democrat.
I know this one is in response to me: Maybe if you took time off from your Bush worship, you'd figure it out...
LOL.
Try again, oh misguided ones.
LOL. Perhaps you don't worship Bush, my bad. Your getting worked up about 'brownshirts' sure sounded silly and in character.
How have your electoral predictions gone recently?
Pretty well, actually. I predicted the Dems would take Congress, and might just take the Senate.
And I confidently predict that Al Gore will never, ever, ever, be President. Nor will John Kerry - but you knew that.
I knew about Kerry having no chance, yes :-)
Gore I think could take the general but may not beat (or even take on) Hillary in the primary.
The Democratic primary in 2008 will be like the NBA's western conference ca. 2002, where the battle for the nomination is the de facto general election.
How are your skanky daughter doing in South America, Mr. president?
He seems to be able to show empathy when what's going on in Iraq is personalized to the individual case. He may be a bumbler, but he's still human.
Judging from every story I've read about his "empathy", it's a *show*, and many people pick up on that. And the fact that whatever he shows doesn't translate into actually paying attention to the will of the People shows a lot more...
Webb's son has been betrayed by his father as surely as Sheehan's son was betrayed by her.
This is mind-bogglingly ignorant.
The well-being and health of the country is a distant second as you pervert freedom of speech for your ignoble ends.
This is a bit strong, I think.
It's not just that I want people like Webb, McCaskill, Rangel, and Conyers to have political power, it's that they share my views on what is best for the country. How do I benefit from their power otherwise?
At a minimum, theirs are certainly closer to my views than those of the president and his largely likeminded and/or obedient congressional majority.
Is it January yet?
ntodd said "I'm not a Democrat."
Further Left then, eh?
Communist? Anarchist? Faux-libertarian? North Korean? Jihadist? Green? Red? Pink? Or, given your love of the 'brownshirt' tag, a National Socialist?
I'm on pins n' needles.
..which gives him (military) authority over Webb's son, not Webb.
Which provides at least one explanation of why Bush would ask about someone under his command.
Don't be a pig like Webb. It'll only ride your shoulder for the rest of the day.
I am seeing all of these references to Bush being Webb's son's commander-in-chief and I cannot help but wonder why it isn't Webb asking Bush how his son is. As a commander you are supposed to know the condition and well-being of the troops under your command. So why doesn't Bush already know how PFC Webb is doing. He is responsible for that Marine's well-being.
At least, that it is how I was trained to officer.
Further Left then, eh?
Communist? Anarchist? Faux-libertarian? North Korean? Jihadist? Green? Red? Pink? Or, given your love of the 'brownshirt' tag, a National Socialist?
I'm on pins n' needles.
Independent. I don't like parties at all, and I happen to vote for many different candidates, including...Republicans.
There's been some resort to sheer speculation in the comments, so I have come forward to tell what really happened. I was there. I saw and heard it all:
BUSH: “Hey, you see that ‘Borat’ movie yet?
WEBB: “No way, man. He split up Pam and Kid Rock.”
BUSH: “Yeah, bummer. That Tommy Lee’s a tough act to follow.”
WEBB: “You take that back, man!”
BUSH: “Wha, . . .”
WEBB: “That was uncalled for, man.”
(Webb storms off.)
BUSH: “Hey, Bill, can you come over here with some of that hand sanitizer stuff?
The rudest thing of all this is that Bush started a war on false pretenses, the warmonger crowd shouted down and insulted people who raised concerns about the false pretenses before the war.
Now this war has created bloody chaos, we are spending near to a half trillion dollars on it, our military is all messed up, Osama bin LAden is still out there schemeing, Bush has screwed it up tremendously and the right wing is incensed that a father of a soildier in harm's way is not properly puckering up for the guy who created the whole fiasco?
I can understand Webb having an attitude about Bush! Bush has made the country less safe by invading a country that did not attack us. Apparently, Bush just wanted to show up the old man.
Really, conservatives have no shame! This war is immoral and wrong. For such a posturing, moralistic crowd, you seem to have a very flexible definition of morality when it applies to your political party.
"How are your skanky daughter doing in South America, Mr. president?"
Good point, spinoza. Were some freshman dem congressman to walk up to Bush and ask this exact question, the left side of the blogosphere would rush to demand he be the next presidential candidate for such incredible heroism.
John Stewart would play the clip of the incident over and over again while his studio audience cheered and appluaded with joy.
This comments thread has to be one of the most ridiculous exchanges this blog has ever seen.
Right, as everyone knows, it's always the sons who betray the parents, not the converse. "Every story I've read" says this. [ntodd]
Way to miss the point and make it into a strawman. Here's a match...
If the shoe were on the other foot- let's say it was a Swift Boat Member who supposedly acted this way towards Kerry at an official and formal gathering. What would the blogosphere and MSM reaction have been?
That is how all of us should measure whether the alleged behavior was over the line.
Applauded, even.
Oh, and Alpha Lib, Afghanistan didn't attack us. Nor did Bosnia. Nor Iraq during the first war.
Looks like its going to a productive next two years filled with the spirit of bipartisanship yada, yada, yada as we confront the nation's pressing problems.
Sorry that single-party rule didn't work out.
"Bipartisanship is another name for date rape."
Alpha Liberal, do you have that answer in a Word file, so you can cut and paste it at aill, ad nauseum? Jesus Christ on roller skates, man, give it a rest.
And AJ Lynch, that comparison would have been true if and only if JFKerry had been elected President. (At least he's still got the hat.)
I mean no disrespect.
Oh, and Alpha Lib, Afghanistan didn't attack us. Nor did Bosnia. Nor Iraq during the first war.
Afghanistan did not attack us, but the argument was that they harbored the people who did (not something I accept as justification, actually). Bosnia (presumably you mean Serbia?) didn't attack us, but NATO asked for our assistance since it was something our European allies were concerned about (stability and all that)--I'll note there were no US casualties, fewer than a thousand dead Serbians, and the objectives were achieved (though I'll note it was nonviolent action that finally took Milosevic down).
I'll note there were no US casualties, fewer than a thousand dead Serbians..........
Plus a few dead Chinese which will not be forgotton.
Torch yourself, O Holy One.
Can't today. Busy.
I'll note there were no US casualties, fewer than a thousand dead Serbians..........
Plus a few dead Chinese which will not be forgotton.
Yes, that has completely harmed our relations with China. Who could forget the Sino-US War?
That sort of response would have been in keeping with the caricature, sure, but I can't believe Bush would have said that. He seems to be able to show empathy when what's going on in Iraq is personalized to the individual case.
The empathy gene was long ago bred out of the Bush Crime Family.
"How are your daughters?"
Such a response would have been classic. Oh no, not loaded at all, just like the original question.
But not really. It should have been a non-event, but the conversation went south after the first question, and both men behaved somewhat gracelessly.
But consider that both men are strecthed pretty thin, Bush probably more so (I admit). They're not superhuman, yawn.
Also, as Ann suggests, a little skepticism about the precise dialogue is in order. Even if we are getting the verbatim transcript of the conversation, keep in mind that there about 38 different ways to say "good morning", each one with a distinct meaning behind it.
Winner for the worst comment thread ever.
I am begining to feel like I'm in the audience of the Jerry Springer show.
Freder, your little scenario demonstrating my supposed cluelessness shows you are just as tone-deaf as Webb, and you have to have done this on purpose.
As a cancer patient myself, I know it is completely inappropriate to broach the subject of treatment to someone who has not raised the topic himself with me beforehand. Many people simply don't want to talk about such an intensely personal experience, and rightly so.
That you further suppose that I would contradict a patient regarding his own treatment is totally insane. If you're thinking that Bush's retort to Webb was on the same level, I simply can't see it.
The fact that Jim Webb's son is a Marine is in the public record. Asking after the son is a courtesy, similar to asking, "How is your family settling in," to someone who has just moved. We have no indication of the tone of voice Bush used in his "That's not what I said," reply: all the reports say "Bush said," with no descriptors. If Bush was snippy, OK, uncalled for. But if Bush was gently trying to steer the conversation away from politicking and back towards small talk, that would make all the difference in the world.
Murph: When all is said and done I expect Senator-elect Webb will deny this episode happened simply because he’s a decent man
No such luck, I'm afraid. Webb has already been interviewed by the WaPo on this and confirms the incident took place.
BDS-Bush Devotion Syndrome--raises its ugly head. Bush couldn't possibly have been rude. And if he was, well, respect the office for goodness sake. It's those Kos kidz fault! It's commies! It's Bush haters! We must be deferential to the President! This one, anyway.
Hey, funny seeing all these lefties standing up for a NeoCon* like Webb.
I'm inclined to set up a 10x10 board (like a superbowl pool) and sell squares, into which all the senators' names will go. 100 senators, 100 squares, buy a square for $10. If the senator in that square is the first guy Webb punches out, you win $500. (The other half goes to charity - my booze fund). I know, it should be only 99 other senators, but if Webb is crazy enough to talk about punching out the President, I figure he's no worse than 7:2 to punch himself out at some point in the next two years, probably in open session.
*Neo-Con = NeoConfederate.
John Stewart would play the clip of the incident over and over again
That is pretty ignorant to consider Jon Stewart a partisan hack. He is equally dismissive of idiocy from both parties. Being out of power completely means Democrats have had few chances to provide him with material.
Colin Powell came out this morning and called the Iraq War mess a Civil War. He said the Bushies should face facts and call it what it is.
But, noooo..... they want to save face! That's more important than dealing with reality rather than their fantasy world.
If my boy was there and the petulant prick was bossing me around, I'd be much more incensed than Webb was. It must be painful seeing your sons life be so casually played with by a meglomaniac.
Earth to wingers: Your invasion and occupation of Iraq has made things worse and more dangerous. If you had an ounce of integrity yuo'd admit your grave (literally grave) mistakes that have led to tens of thoussands of people dead. Pro-life, my ass.
Someone said:
Oh, and Alpha Lib, Afghanistan didn't attack us. Nor did Bosnia. Nor Iraq during the first war.
Yeah, I know. I was around. They harbored and protected the people who attacked us. Thats why I and the overwhelmingly majority of libs supported the invasion of Afghanistan.
But bush let Osama bin Laden go in Tora Bora. He refused requests for more troops, sent in mercenaries and started planning for the invasion and occupation of Iraq before the job was done.
Why haven't we caught Osama bin Laden yet? Bush has played right into OBL's hands!
El Presidente said...
Winner for the worst comment thread ever.
Jennifer said...
This comments thread has to be one of the most ridiculous exchanges this blog has ever seen.
agree
Wehn will the Iraq War backers come to their senses and own up to the terrible mess they have made of the MidEast? Some have!
Former House speaker Newt Gingrich (R-GA) said yesterday “that unless the Bush administration admits that the war in Iraq is a ‘failure,’ it will never develop a strategy to leave the country successfully.”
Oh! And look! The war is becoming regional!
”Using money, weapons or its oil power, Saudi Arabia will intervene to prevent Iranian-backed Shi’ite militias from massacring Iraqi Sunni Muslims once the United States begins pulling out of Iraq, a security adviser to the Saudi government said on Wednesday.”
Why any parent with offspring in the middle of this cauldron should just kiss the President's ring!
Do you even listen to yourselves? Do you graps how badlyy this thing has gone? or are you too busy trying to sound "tough"?
Wehn will the Iraq War backers come to their senses and own up to the terrible mess they have made of the MidEast? Some have!
The MidEast was not a terrible mess before the Iraq War? LOL
knoxgirl, agreed. It's a thread full of stupidity.
Nothing like it is after six years of the Cheney-Bush Administration. If you can't see the difference, well, your vision needs addressing. We have thousands dying, death squads roaming Bagdad, regional conflicts growing, the breakup of Iraq looking mroe likely, and the US mired down somneone else's Civil War.
But you guys will defend Bush to the end! Including Althouse!
At worst: we find two acerbic politicians who don't like each other.
I agree with this, and the earlier charactization that Webb rebuffed Bush and then Bush rebuffed back.
What I can't handle is people like Joan who were shocked and dismayed by Webb's uppitiness, and it appears Ann falls in this category.
I find Seven Machos's "no big deal" assessment, as well as the ever highminded knoxgirl's objections to this thread as a whole quite reassuring, because it means most everyone can see that Bush comes off looking worse.
Ann (and many in this thread) say that they doubt that the exchange occurred as reported. In today's WaPo, however, the reporter quotes the same exchange with Bush as Ann does and then says that Webb himself confirmed it:
"I'm not particularly interested in having a picture of me and George W. Bush on my wall," Webb said in an interview yesterday in which he confirmed the exchange between him and Bush. "No offense to the institution of the presidency, and I'm certainly looking forward to working with him and his administration. [But] leaders do some symbolic things to try to convey who they are and what the message is."
The article goes on to say that the White House refused to comment, because they regarded the reception as a private affair welcoming newly elected members of Congress.
There's a case for saying that Bush's rebuttal was rude, but "How's your Kid?"?
Webb was a jerk for turning a polite inquiry into an opportunity for partisan dick-waving. Bush's response to it isn't going to win any awards from the Miss Manners School of Charm and Influence, but that doesn't change the fact that he was the one putting forth the olive branch, only to have it knocked out of his hand by Webb.
It'll be an interesting 2 years indeed.
Sure, with his opposition to Iraq and vehement condemnation of corporate pillaging and the growing income gap in his WSJ editorial, Webb is clearly a Republican in disguise.
Joan said...
The president was the one being incredibly rude.
Freder, you've got to be kidding. This was a private reception, not a press conference. Webb reportedly refused to stand in the receiving line -- he wouldn't even shake the president's hand
the president said that if the democrats won the terrorists would win -- if you were a victorious democrat, would you be inclined to shake that man's hand?
Good point, Exalted.
Also, it never ceases to amaze me that the "Support the Troops" crowd won't hesitate to attack them or their families if they criticize Bush.
If someone's son is in a combat zone, you treat him with respect and sympathy. Not as Bush did, demanding a deferential answer.
Bush cannot respect disagreeing views.
Perhaps you missed the news. The terrorists and their enablers in Syria and Iran are gloating about the Democrats winning. They seemn to agree with the President.
Just like the terrorists were ramping up violence before the elections?
Don't kid yourself, the entire world was celebrating.
Oh how times have changed.
How so? Has he recanted this statement?
Via Powerline
Shocker.
If the terrorists didn't jump off a cliff, would you?
Also, this logic implies that most Americans are pro-terrorist. They are, after all, anti-Bush and pro-Democratic Congress. How can this be?
Might not the alternative explanation, that the Hannities and Rushes now speak only for a few million dead-enders in their last throes, be more likely?
Troutjacki
Where would the terrorists get the idea that Democrats would be soft on terror? And wouldn't the purveyors of this idea be guilty of aiding and abetting the enemy? Worse yet, putting our troops in harms way?
tourjackie:
The terrorists and their enablers in Syria and Iran are gloating about the Democrats winning. They seemn to agree with the President.
Really? And do you believe evrything that the terrorists tell you? It was funny watching conservatives brandish terorirst propaganda and taking it all at face value, demanding US politicians jump to address it.
Meanwhile Bush's Iraq disaster isa great gift to al Qaeda, making us look brutal and stupid and as if we're going after their oil, as they said. AQ ranks have swelled.
attention troutjacki:
the president equated support for his political opponents with support for our terrorist enemies. as have you. neither is acceptable in a civil discourse.
however, it is rather unhinged to think 55% of americans support the terrorists (the percentage democratic senate candidates got in the aggregate).
Troutjacki
Think of it this way. Not one single Democrat incumbent lost a seat in the house, senate, or governorship. All those millions, for nothing.
But then again, what do I know. You're a mind-reader like Althouse, so tell us what else you "just know" about Jim Webb.
Bush asked him how his son was. That isn't rude. Webb tried to turn it into a political debate. That was rude. Bush declined to turn it into a political debate, and again asked Webb how his son was, to express concern about his son's welfare. And Webb, in return, was an asshole.
You leftists have let your hatred of Bush warp your every perception.
also, it is hard to know Bush's tone. he could have said what he said any number of ways. he COULD have been rude, or he could have been cool. he may have been genuinely concerned. hard to say.
I don't see what the big deal is. Webb acted like a jerk, but he's been acting like a jerk since back when he was a Republican.
I guess if you're the kind of person who's impressed with somebody "standing up" to the President then you'll likely be impressed by Webb, too. Personally, the fact that millions of people have been openly and publically insulting and snubbing our Presidents since long before I was born makes me a lot less impressed with those sorts of juvenile antics.
WOW - 170 or so comments. This is sure a hot-button topic. If the report is accurate, Webb was way out of line. And his son did volunteer right? I wonder what his son and his fellow Marines truly think of his father's behavior- hell it's reminiscent of idiot parents fighting at their kids games.
And you know this type of behavior could occur everyday in Congress- is that what Americans want to see?
I was curious and supportive of Webb's candidacy but some thought he would be a lose cannon. Guess I was wrong again.
@trout,
the post gave no coverage to "webb's anti-semitic attacks" because they don't exist, except for in your head.
to the extent webb received more favorable coverage, its because he came across as authentic, while allen is an obvious big phoney, and a bully to boot. remember "the liberal media"'s great swoon over mccain in 2000? they love nothing better than a candidate who seems authentic. these candidates, in 2006, were webb and tester.
@shana,
he is probably referring to rush limbaugh, who memorably compared a thirteen year old chelsea clinton to a dog, yet somehow retained his post as a respectable member of the right-wing media.
it is hard to know Bush's tone
No, it's not. I've met the man, and
1) he doesn't have a mean bone in his body and
2) he's not a weenie, so if you're going to insult him, he's not likely to wither.
Webb, on the other hand, is a known pig. The man wallows in his bully-hood-ness. He writes entire articles promoting the virtue of Scot-Irish antagonism. People may call that philosophical. I call it an anger management problem.
Webb knows what he's doing... preening for the DHIMMIcRAT nutroots and the liberal media.
Democrats. Sigh. They can't seem to manage a pair of cojones and common decency at the same time ... with them, it's all about one or the other.
George Mahal:
Where would the terrorists get the idea that Democrats would be soft on terror?
Unnhhh, why don't you ask them? Or better yet, read in the various media, old and new, the coverage of for whom the terrorists were pulling.
Hint: DHIMMIcRATs.
Must be the 'civility' I hear so much about:
"Saw your posts on Althouse. You're a dick. You think anyone who doesn't hate Bush worships him. Get over yourself."
or perhaps you're just easy to fool.
Well, Bush "fooled" the Texas Democrats for years, then, because they thought he was an extremely personable guy too. That's the general impression of just about everyone who actually knows the man. The ones convinced he must be mean and evil are the ones who see him only as a symbol of ideas they hate.
dave said...
Good for Webb.
Get used to it, brownshirts.
Dave, great comment and very funny.
Exactly! "Dubya" is famous for his willingness to answer any question at any time from any audience. It's been his "trademark" for his whole administration. I think that is very sexy.
Oh for the love of beans! Bush's crowds are always carefully controlled to only include supporters. They have ejected people who disagree with him time and time again.
Really, you shouldn't drink the Kool Aid!
What I can't handle is people like Joan who were shocked and dismayed by Webb's uppitiness
I was neither shocked nor dismayed. This "incident" wasn't surprising at all, actually, because of prevailing attitudes towards the president and the presidency in some quarters. I think it's obvious that Webb is deficient in common courtesy and I don't see that as something to be lionized.
If Webb cares so little for the office of the president, and by extension, the government of this country, why did he run for senator? As I said before, I'm sure a lot of VA voters are wondering just what they signed up for in voting for Webb.
I'm sure a lot of VA voters are wondering just what they signed up for in voting for Webb.
Another mind reader, but clearly a significantly higher level than all the others because you can know what multiple voters are thinking! You should take your act on the road: you'd be bigger than David Blaine!
Hmmm...
A lot of people think Jim Webb may have overreacted to the President Bush when he asked about his son Jimmy at a recent White House function.
I've gotten a tip on the background to this confrontation, and it appears that Webb may have under reacted.
As President Bush is well aware, a couple of weeks before this dinner the tank riding next to Jimmy's in Iraq was under fire and three marines died.
My sources are telling me that the way President Bush approached Webb with his tone, it appeared he was asking the question of how Jimmy was doing in a mocking manner, while he was certainly aware of the tragedy that had hit his unit a few weeks earlier.
My sources are telling me that the way President Bush approached Webb with his tone, it appeared he was asking the question of how Jimmy was doing in a mocking manner, while he was certainly aware of the tragedy that had hit his unit a few weeks earlier
Boy, you've really got to be a victim of BDS to interpret the question that way. Normally, when a person you know is aware of something bad happening to your son asks how your son is doing, you interpret that as a polite way of asking after your son's well-being. My brother in law suffered some medical problems recently. If someone aware of that asked me "how's he doing" I wouldn't think "you bastard! you're mocking his pain!" and yearn to punch the guy in the nose.
The again, Webb's got a short temper and a huge ego, so maybe he WOULD see it that way.
Boy, you've really got to be a victim of BDS to interpret the question that way.
Depends on the tone, which was the point.
Normally, when a person you know is aware of something bad happening to your son asks how your son is doing, you interpret that as a polite way of asking after your son's well-being.
Normally, yes. Given his history, Bush is not normal.
OK I was thinking if I was a reporter I would like to know what Webb's son thought. Then I thought holy crap I would hate to put the kid in that kind of a position.
But you know who didn't give a damn about that?
Dear Ole Dad.
Webb was said to walk around campaigning in his son's "boots" or carrying them around.
Has a touch of oppurtunism to it-doesn't it?
Webb was said to walk around campaigning in his son's "boots" or carrying them around.
Nice passive, ambiguous construction. Any citations? From what I've seen, Webb didn't parade his son's service around at all.
Just as an FYI Webb's son has a blog
So if you're looking for his opinions on things, that'd probably be a good place to start.
Well hell he's a Steeler fan. Gad-this season has stunk.
No- a professional military man stays apolitical for a parent to use that for political gain be it Webb or Sheehan it smacks of oppurtunism.
Seems like Webb takes every chance to twist it to his gain-even during "small talk".
Look I hate Webb for his opinion on women in military schools. Not if they should be operational, on the front lines-yada yada.
Period.
End of discussion.
madawaskin, it's not up to you to say when the discussion ends. My bet is that this exchange between Weeb and Bush will come up again and agian -- twisted and mangled on this blog, accurately reported on others -- for some time. If you take one look at Webb's service you might understand him better. Disagreeing with his opinions on military regulations and policies is something I would think he could meet in civil debate. Althouse's speculating about his mental state is about as useful as her critique of a blogger who points out her hypocrisy -- losts of name-calling, but absolutely no substance.
Have you noticed that Althouse simply threw up a few words and you all run like dogs with one little bone amongst you?
Pathetic come to mind. It must be why she has such a high opinion of herself -- you all do feed her ego.
Normally, yes. Given his history, Bush is not normal
Do try to remember that unlike yourself I am not a BDS sufferer. "His history" is that he's a nice guy who makes it a point to extend friendly gestures to political opponents, and has continued to do so in the face of repeated attempts to paint him as a booze-addled mass-murdering fascist dictator.
That might, perhaps, not be normal, but it certainly doesn't lend any credibility to the story you're trying to push. :)
Nice passive, ambiguous construction. Any citations?
Hm. While you're busy asking madawaskan for his sources, why not take a minute to ask Larry Sabato what HIS sources are? Or -- let me guess -- are unnamed sources and unsourced anecdotes only questionable when you disagree with what they say? :)
Do try to remember that unlike yourself I am not a BDS sufferer.
Do try to remember that unlike yourself, I'm in the majority.
While you're busy asking madawaskan for his sources, why not take a minute to ask Larry Sabato what HIS sources are?
No. I want to know this poster's sources for stuff about Webb on the trail. Should be easier than hearsay, given how widely reported the race was.
I'm sorry, but Bush (the president) asking Webb about his son (who's fighting in a war which Webb disagreed with) is a truly bizarre choice of "small talk."
Putting Webb in a position of having to pretend he's not mad at Bush for sending his son over there is not an innocent gesture.
Let me put it this way, if this story didn't reflect poorly on Bush, Ann wouldn't have a hard time believing it.
Do try to remember that unlike yourself, I'm in the majority.
Well I've never seen exact statistics, but I'm *pretty* sure that a majority of Americans aren't assholes. So you're probably wrong on that one.
And in any case, very few Americans would agree with you that George Bush's history suggests he'd mock the parent of an endangered US soldier by pretending to ask after the soldier's well-being. That's purely the realm of people who automatically assume that "truth" and "whatever theory makes Bush look worst" are always and in all cases two identical things.
"why not take a minute to ask Larry Sabato what HIS sources are?"
No.
Looks like my "only people you disagree with need evidence for their assertions" theory was right on the money.
Freder, what Republicans at the time criticized Chelsea Clinton?
Well, it would be easy to say that Rush Limbaugh did, because he did. But let us see if a high ranking Republican politician did the same. Ah yes, we have Senator John McCain.
And in any case, very few Americans would agree with you that George Bush's history suggests he'd mock the parent of an endangered US soldier by pretending to ask after the soldier's well-being.
Karla Faye Tucker might tend to disagree with that. Cindy Sheehan too. General Shinseki. Perhaps there is some video of a young George Bush flipping off a camera.
Well I've never seen exact statistics, but I'm *pretty* sure that a majority of Americans aren't assholes. So you're probably wrong on that one.
Well helLO, Captain Civility! But you are right, I am an asshole. And yet, a majority of Americans agree with me about Iraq, Bush's performance as preznit and that the Dems should be in charge.
Looks like my "only people you disagree with need evidence for their assertions" theory was right on the money.
Nope, it's not. I don't see Sabato here, and he was reporting hearsay, which I merely brought up because this whole kerfuffle is based on that.
Instead, I'm more interested in a citation to a freaking news story or anything that shows Webb wore his sons boots, or whatever. That poster made an assertion, and I'd love a citation. But if he can't cite, such is life. I'll continue to revel in the fact that Webb won, the Dems own Congress, and you Bush apologists will be consigned to the proverbial dustbin of history.
ntodd,
The Senate is not a 'branch' of government. There is no such word as "loosers".
The Senate is not a 'branch' of government. There is no such word as "loosers".
Teh Stupid, it burns.
The Senate is a chamber in what just so happens to be a co-equal branch of government. And while 'loosers' is an inside joke at Eschaton, I thought it would be obvious in the context of my snarky comment that I was not, in fact, being serious.
But thanks so much for the civics and spelling lesson. I can't tell you how enriched I feel now.
"His history" is that he's a nice guy who makes it a point to extend friendly gestures to political opponents, and has continued to do so in the face of repeated attempts to paint him as a booze-addled mass-murdering fascist dictator.
Really? That's not what his rep is here in Texas. Looks like you got bamboozled like many in the country. His rep here is as a dirty politico and death penalty happy light-weight.
And in any case, very few Americans would agree with you that George Bush's history suggests he'd mock the parent of an endangered US soldier by pretending to ask after the soldier's well-being.
Ask anyone who had to deal with Bush's law in Texas regarding whether or not hospitals should continue the care of the terminally ill. You probably railed about Terry Shaivo -- I'm guessing -- but you and Ann probably didn't even make a noise about the patients in Texas who have been sentenced to death because of Bush's anti-tort mania here in Texas.
If you have met the man and feel pleased to have done so, bully for you. Just know that the hand you shook has quite a bit of blood on it -- and I'm not just talking about those who have died and been injured in his happy war.
Live with it. Or you could join me in helping the entire Bush clan move to your state.
The President was making polite small talk and acknowledging that he knew a little bit about Webb's family and trying to indicate some concern for Senator Webb's son.
Unlike Ann, I don't believe that President Bush looked bad in anyway in this verbal altercation. Webb, who campaigned as someone who could appeal to both Republicans and Democrats, looks someone who is unhinged and quite prickly.
The Senate is known as a clubby place and one in which you must put aside your differences to get things done. Webb, seems to believe if one disagrees with him that gives him the right to act rudely towards them and ponder punching them.
Furthermore, his son enlisted voluntarily after the invasion of Iraq, a war which his father opposed. I would have greater sympathy if his son somehow enlisted to fight in Aghanistan after 9/11 and somehow the army pulled a bait and switch which in this case did not happen.
While it is perfectly natural for a father to want his son back as soon as possible, the President is not to blame for his son being in Iraq and if Senator Webb didn't want him being there he should have tried to talk him out of enlisting.
Furthermore, he Senator Webb could have just said he was fine and walked away. No, need to try and express his viewpoint on the war which the President no doubt knew already.
BTW, I also know how to spell 'the', but using 'teh' is a common, deliberate misspelling. I'm not joking.
I'm 1337, see?
No, need to try and express his viewpoint on the war which the President no doubt knew already.
Indeed, once somebody has stated their position, they should never express it ever again. That is the inherent nature of free speech and political discourse. Which is, of course, why Bush never gives the same damned speech to handpicked crowds over and over again about how we're staying in Iraq until we...uh, "win"?
Snow said (when accusing Bush of disrespecting soldiers): "Karla Faye Tucker might tend to disagree with that. Cindy Sheehan too."
FYI- good old Karla Faye Tucker was a convicted double murderer and was executed by the state of Texas when Bush was governor.
Since you used Tucker and Cindy Sheehan together to condemn Bush, what is their connection? Of if you were just attempting to slander both Bush and Cindy Sheehan at the same time, I was caught off guard, because I doubt that has ever been done before!
Furthermore, he Senator Webb could have just said he was fine and walked away.
Well, I doubt Secretary Webb feels his son is fine as his unit was under heavy fire a couple of days ago and lost several Marines.
Webb, seems to believe if one disagrees with him that gives him the right to act rudely towards them and ponder punching them.
"Go fuck yourself." I'm not saying that to you; that is what Vice President Cheney said to Senator Leahy after Senator Leahy said hello down on the Senate floor.
I'm sorry. Did I bring that up. Rude is okay if you are a Republican.
The Senate is a camera.
That's why people call it a bicameral Congress. Congress is the branch of government.
And I'm sorry about your bad case of teh stoopid. Thanks for playing.
The President was making polite small talk and acknowledging that he knew a little bit about Webb's family and trying to indicate some concern for Senator Webb's son.
Whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy . . . and moderate.
I can easily construct a senario where Bush is an idiot.
The truth is in what Bush has actually done. Based on his actions in the many years he has been in my state, I can, with 95% accuracy, assure you that Bush was not being sincere. I can go on to specualte, based on my 15 year knowledge of the man, that Bush was scared of Webb -- intimidated by him -- and simply said something very stupid -- not anticipating the response -- and arrogant enough to continue to be the ass that he always has been -- as his only response.
Paint that boy up pretty all you will -- he's still what he has always been -- a failure.
Snow said (when accusing Bush of disrespecting soldiers)
Well yeehaw! That just isn't true at all. What is wrong with y'all?
very few Americans would agree with you that George Bush's history suggests he'd mock the parent of an endangered US soldier
That was the comment I was responding to and you would know that had I actually quoted it in my comment. Which it appears that I did; therefore, you must have known that. So did I say anything about disrespecting soldiers or did I accuse Bush of having a history that would indeed suggest he is known for mocking for people. But thank you for altering the facts of what I say. I'm sure you know what I meant better than I.
aj lynch -- you must not know what Bush reportedly said about Karla Faye Tucker when her appeal was before him. Look it up. If you agree, then your sweetheart relationship with Bush is assured. If you find it coarse -- as many Christians did -- well then there's your camp.
I'm thinking you were trying to be snarky. If so, that's not working for you.
ernst -- you are quite the dino for the web. What was it you said?
As I said before the election, he's an excitable boy, and prone to grand gestures.
Sound rather Michael Savage-like. You get me, no?
As for the rest of you comment -- old old old argument about why Webb's son joined. It couldn't have been anything connected with his own choice. And FYI, Webb didn't declare to run against Felix until this year.
You may have connect-a-dot syndrome. I suggest a doctor.
Knemon, whose boots? His son's? Can you understand symbolism? I guess not.
(also, learning to do a link is easy -- to be taken seriously -- learn it.)
Lotta tension on this thread. I'll tell you, we are heading for a collision. People like "dave" and "ntodd" think the 2006 election is an instruction from the voters to George W. Bush to withdraw from Iraq quite soon -- beginning within weeks.
I don't think he's going to do that. And Congress will not force his hand.
I checked out ntodd's "Vichy Democrats" site. A Vichy Democrat is one who votes in support of the president on a given hot-button issue, e.g. Sam Alito, or "suspending habeas corpus." ntodd now says:
Now that we've won control of one branch, of course, identifying and gutting Vichys is more important than ever, so thanks be to anyone who helps us see clearly who to target.
Target for what? This is how the left plans on building on 2006 toward the presidency in 2008? By applying McCarthyite loyalty tests within the Democratic party? The left-wing of the McGovern era might have been pretty out there ideologically, but they weren't stupid enough to try to purge their own ranks of centrists and conservative Dems, and they certainly didn't fling around Nazi metaphors to describe members of their own party!
Brownshirts... I guess when you're wearing one you think everyone else is, too.
Michileins said:
"Look it up" when I asked Snow why he was conecting a convicted murderer (Tucker) with Cindy Sheehan.
FYFI Michilines- I was not asking you- my comment was directed to the doofus not from Texas, Snow. And he stil has not answered clearly.
after further reflection, i have to agree with ann here: both guys acted like asses.
however, i do like the cojones it shows from webb. smell the authenticity.
Only on this blog have I heard Webb quoted that way. I've been hearing all day:
Webb: "He would like to come home from Iraq Mr. President".
far less "smart ass" than the first answer cited here.
Mr. Bush did not reinterate "how's your boy?" in his response either.
I am sure Matt Drudge or Rush Limbaugh could come up with a more offensive exchange to show how Mr. Bush was/is beset by insolence at every turn. He and they live in an imaginary world filed with rudeness and disrespect. Why expect less.
I was not asking you- my comment was directed to the doofus not from Texas, Snow. And he stil has not answered clearly.
OK. Allow me to be perfectly clear. You are a liar. Clear enough?
In case you are confused. please refer to my response that appears immediately before the comment from michilines which prompted the above-quoted comment from you.
Really? That's not what his rep is here in Texas.
Yes it is.
hdhouse: "Only on this blog have I heard Webb quoted that way. I've been hearing all day..."
My version is the one in the Washington Post. I said I doubt the verbatim nature of the quotes. The insinuation that I'm looking for the worst about Webb is ridiculous. This is the version we're seeing in the press. If blogs are paraphrasing to tone it down, you should be suspicious of them
The Senate is a camera.
That's why people call it a bicameral Congress. Congress is the branch of government.
Are you really this stupid? The English word 'chamber' comes from the Latin 'camera'. That's what it means.
And no matter in what chamber Webb is a member, he is a member of a co-equal branch of government called Congress.
The combat boots.
There's even a picture.
Thank you.
Can't imagine why a guy would wear his son's old combat boots.
Please wipe the spittle from your lip, ntodd.
I'm sorry you still think the Senate is a coequal 'branch' of government.
Never said he shouldn't. Just pointing out that he did/does, since at least one commenter was doubting it.
I was the one who "doubted" it. I wanted a citation from another commenter, who DID bring it up as though it meant Webb was opportunistic.
I'm sorry you still think the Senate is a coequal 'branch' of government.
Congress is co-equal. The Senate is a part of Congress. So a Senator need not show any special deference to the Executive, being a member of the Legislative branch.
I'm sorry you're so fucking obtuse.
So a Senator need not show any special deference to the Executive, being a member of the Legislative branch
Inasmuch as the three branches of government are supposed to be equal, the President is the equal of the Congress. A Senator, as merely one-fiftieth of one-half of the Legislative branch, is not the equal of the Executive. So even if common sense isn't enough to tell you that a President outranks a Senator, that fact should.
But in any case we are not talking about "special deferrence". It doesn't take "special deferrence" to not act like a dick when someone asks how your kids are. It just takes good manners and a less-than-gigantic ego, neither of which Webb has a reputation for possessing.
A Senator, as merely one-fiftieth of one-half of the Legislative branch, is not the equal of the Executive.A Senator, as merely one-fiftieth of one-half of the Legislative branch, is not the equal of the Executive.A Senator, as merely one-fiftieth of one-half of the Legislative branch, is not the equal of the Executive.
Oh, jeebus. Yeah, a mathematical argument about branches. That's rich.
Look, a Senator is one of 100 in their chamber, which does mean they don't wield a great deal of power individually. Yet a Senator can filibuster. And they are, like cells in a human body, part of an organ without which the Federal government cannot function.
There's a reason they are elected for 6 years, not 4. There's a reason that they are non-proportionally representative of their States. There's a reason that they must provide advice and consent for Bush's nominees. It's because collectively the Senate in particular, and Congress in general, is on par with the Executive branch.
There's no Constitutional math that says a President is somehow more deserving of respect than a Senator. And to suggest otherwise reveals just how into the fascist concept of the unitary executive you are. Disturbing.
It doesn't take "special deferrence" to not act like a dick when someone asks how your kids are.
He gave the answer he wanted to give, not what Bush wanted hear. Bush can suck on it.
Hey, tim:
If anyone is classless, it's Bush.
And how dare the Webb critics presume to speak for his son.
From what part of Iraq are YOU posting?????
An appointee of Saint Ronald of the Monster Deficit gave the Democrats the Senate on November 7.
He's not impressed with the Monkey Boy, who has disgraced the office of president and this country.
Well, cry me a river, rightards!
Bottom line: the voters of this country resoundingly rejected Bush and his vanity war on November 7.
Bush Co. and their quest to turn this country into a fascist dictatorship was stopped in its tracks.
So, as you brownshirts were so quick to tell us in 2004:
YOU LOST - DEAL WITH IT!
Yet a Senator can filibuster. And they are, like cells in a human body, part of an organ without which the Federal government cannot function.
They're only part of the organ. The President *is* the "organ"; he IS the executive power. A Senator is not the Legislative power. He doesn't even necessarily have any influence on it.
There's a reason why we have procedures in place to immediately replace the President the minute he dies or is killed, but leave the replacement of Senators up to whenever the governor of their state gets around to naming one -- because Senators, individually, are nowhere *near* as important as the President.
Look, if you want to argue that the Bush and Webb are equals, go right ahead. Webb and the sack boy at Pick n' Save are equals too -- all Americans are equals. But anyone who isn't a complete ignoramus realizes that Bush is vastly more powerful, important, and influential than Webb is, and in that sense very much outranks him.
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