August 27, 2011

The schoolgirls have "meltdowns" when mom packs the lunch in ziploc bags.

Because the girls "don't want to be shamed" at school.

Because enviromentalism is the religion taught in public schools, and it's the kind of religion done with shaming young people.

But also:

1. Some people wash and reuse ziploc bags. So don't presume you know that the ziploc-user is an enviro-sinner.

2. Kiddies, if you are old enough to understand environmentalism and to pressure your mother with it, you are old enough to pack your own lunch. And if you're so hot on being saintly, start helping your mother, not making her life any harder.

165 comments:

hoop said...

Anybody who's that twitchy about a cause is just prime for being trolled. Somebody should tell them that every time they exhale, they produce carbon dioxide!!!11!eleventy!

Pogo said...

The rituals of the Green religion are many and unforgiving.

JAL said...

Like #2, Professor.

What snotty kids.

I won't start on the self righteoussness of the EnviroPharisees which exceeds that of the caricatured Christian "fundamentalists" in spades.

Shouting Thomas said...

Woodstock is, of course, ga-ga over green energy.  Our Town Board has pledged that we will have a zero “carbon footprint” by some arbitrary date.  What in the hell this means, I have no idea.

We have a relatively new goofball cult in Woodstock, the Farm Animal Sanctuary.  They rescue farms animals… from being converted into meat.  That’s right!

Somehow, FAS has wangled a $123,000 grant from the state to install solar power at their “farm.”

Here you have the green energy scam in a nutshell.  It is, indeed, a nutjob pseudo religion.  And, it’s a scam.  The green energy business cannot exist on its own, nurtured by entrepreneurs who want to make it profit.

No, the green energy business must be deemed into existence by government fiat and regulation.

This is pure political corruption, and economic suicide.

traditionalguy said...

The mass delusions of the environmentally righteous are a copycat of religious legalism.

It seldom makes rational sense, and it must be policed by a priesthood who get to rule over others.

neomom said...

We aren't supposed to teach modesty and abstinence because we shouldn't shame our children about the multitude of dangers of promiscuity, but it is perfectly fine to shame them about @*#&! lunchbags?

What it the world is this country coming to?

Freder Frederson said...

Of course Ann dwells on one anecdotal, unverified statement in the article. She misses the entire thrust of the article in that reducing waste saves the schools money in the form of smaller disposal bills.

As conservatives, I thought you would this, at least, is a good idea.

Darrell said...

Good vibrations going your way, Freder.
Choke on it.

DADvocate said...

Looks like they're returning to where we were in grade school. We all had metal lunch boxes with thermos bottles, unless we bought lunch at school. A sandwich was usually wrapped in wax paper. I don't remember any plastic baggies.

The cafeteria lady, and her husband, had a farm. They took all the left over food and fed it to the pigs. Everything else was compostable or recyclable (although there was very little recycling back then).

Darrell said...

Those teachers preaching the green
gospel can be recycled by the pigs, as well.

Lincolntf said...

"She misses the entire thrust of the article in that reducing waste saves the schools money in the form of smaller disposal bills."

So how many trash collectors/janitors, etc. have been let go as a result of this boon? 25% of the workers? 50%? Or maybe ZERO because it's a bullshit argument?

vet66 said...

Arguably half the world goes to bed hungry every night and water is a long walk to the well with a bucket. These children and the guilt ridden teachers who propagandize them have no idea what freedom is, how much it costs or a clue about values.

The religion of secularism is a false god that reduces it's flock to mediocrity and helplessness. The GOD our forefathers wrote about has been replaced by the nanny state. I can't imagine anything more pathetic than relying on politicians to replace fathers and mothers as pathetic substitutes for real parents.

Freder Frederson said...

The mass delusions of the environmentally righteous are a copycat of religious legalism.

Leaving aside the "shaming", what did you find objectionable about schools trying to reduce costs through encouraging the use of reusable containers? Are you so opposed to environmental protection that even environmental initiatives that actually save money are still stupid ideas?

Shouting Thomas said...

Leaving aside the "shaming", what did you find objectionable about schools trying to reduce costs through encouraging the use of reusable containers?

Bullshit. That's what.

They aren't trying to reduce costs.

Jess said...

Freder, there is only one item of empirical data in the article; all else is, in fact, anecdotal. So taking Ann to task on this is, pretty much, blaming the messenger.

Writ Small said...

She misses the entire thrust of the article in that reducing waste saves the schools money in the form of smaller disposal bills.

I'd love to see the before and after bills for garbage pickup after ziploc bags were banned. I'm certain it would justify all of the shaming.

Freder Frederson said...

So how many trash collectors/janitors, etc. have been let go as a result of this boon? 25% of the workers? 50%? Or maybe ZERO because it's a bullshit argument?

What is the "bullshit" part? You don't believe that waste can be reduced?

Darrell said...

Show me a city school that doesn't get city garbage collection with unlimited haulage.

Are you trying to put union sanitation workers out of a job?

Monster!

DADvocate said...

She misses the entire thrust of the article in that reducing waste saves the schools money in the form of smaller disposal bills.


Umm. No. You ignored the entire point of the article to find a reason to criticize Ann and conservatives. There is one sentence regarding schools saving money: "Many of the schools are pushing waste-free lunches, where everything must be either compostable or reusable, in an effort to reduce garbage and the cost of hauling it away."

Everything else is about the push of environmentalism, social pressures, the cost to the family of the environmentalism, etc.

Liar.

Leland said...

Professor, you don't understand environmentalist at all. The goal is to make other people do the things you want them to do to make your world a better place to live.

Shouting Thomas said...

The Communist Party of America was founded in Woodstock in 1921.

Since then, the Woodstock commies have discovered one "problem" after another that demands the institution of a centrally planned economy.

Environmentalism is just the latest of these scams.

The left wants a centrally planned economy, so it keeps inventing "problems" that demand the already pre-packaged solution.

In other words, environmentalists are "watermelons." Green on the outside, red on the inside.

Keystone said...

Did anybody else make the connection between this thread and the guitar thread? The state will make you clean.

Freder Frederson said...

The cafeteria lady, and her husband, had a farm. They took all the left over food and fed it to the pigs. Everything else was compostable or recyclable (although there was very little recycling back then).

Food waste must now be cooked (heated through to boiling for 30 minutes) before it can be used as animal feed.

I am sure you are appalled at this ridiculous intrusion on Ma and Pa farmer. But of course there is a really good reason for the regulations. Food waste can introduce diseases like hog cholera, foot and mouth disease, African swine fever, and swine vesicular disease. salmonella, campylobacter, trichinella, and toxoplasma.

DADvocate said...

Did anybody else make the connection between this thread and the guitar thread? The state will make you clean.

Good point. Totalitarianism is the underlies liberal thought. We know what's right and good, so it's right and good for us to force everyone to do what we want.

Quayle said...

Come you masters of food storage
You that build all the Tupperware
You that build the death baggies
You that build all the saran wrap
You that hide behind packaging
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks.

Darrell said...

It's all about saving the taxpayers money.

Those "greenshirts" policing sanctioned behavior are really a bargain.

Freder Frederson said...

We know what's right and good, so it's right and good for us to force everyone to do what we want.

So you think we should get rid of the USDA and FDA? I am sure you can figure out for yourself if your food is safe

Jay Vogt said...

Are they shamed at not being able to read and do math at grade appropriate proficiencies?

Thought that might be an interesting story for the gray lady.

Just wonderin'

DADvocate said...

I am sure you are appalled at this ridiculous intrusion on Ma and Pa farmer.

I'm sure you're a sanctimonious asshole.

robinintn said...

What's that matter with the parents? The children have a meltdown because their parents aren't behaving like good little enviro-nuts? My 16-year-old daughter's schools have been trying that brainwashing shit since kindergarten, but I didn't let them actually do it. Because I'm the parent.

Larry J said...

I brown bag my lunch every day because I'm frugal*. Being frugal, I reuse my lunch bags, often for several weeks. It took less petroleum to make a lunch bag than it does for a reusable container.

*Simple acts of frugality can add up to substancial savings. I don't buy fancy coffee and take advantage of the coffee my employer provides, saving me several dollars a day. I can bring my lunch for a week for the cost of eating lunch at a restaurant once. Those two things alone save me thousands of dollars a year. My wife does the same, so there's thousands more. We're 100% debt free and have a lot of money put away for retirement.

Bob_R said...

Because everyone expects the green inquisition!

Darrell said...

The hazard was assumed to originate from contraband food items entering the
USA and subsequently being discarded in household waste. Such food waste may
be collected by licensed waste feeders and fed to swine.
This study showed that, of the four diseases studied, the probability of exposure
was highest for the classical swine fever (hog cholera) virus. The median annual
likelihood of one or more contaminated loads of swill being fed to swine in the
continental USA was estimated as follows:
- classical swine fever virus: 0.063
- foot and mouth disease virus: 0.043
- swine vesicular disease virus: 0.005
- African swine fever virus: 0.005.

Writ Small said...

Ever have a liberal friend say he or she dislikes organized religion because members "try to force their beliefs on everyone else."

The irony.

M.E. said...

This is reason #498,039,928 why we homeschool.

Professor: You nailed it. It's Gaia worship. Adore Mother Earth; bow down to the sacred animals that populate it.

A neighbor kid (about 12 yo) recently told my college-age daughter that it would be better to swerve the car to avoid a chipmunk in the road, even if it meant that the person crashed and died. I really believe she meant it. The only mortal sin in this religion (besides using plastic) is killing an animal. Human beings? Meh.

The lefties who took over the colleges of education decades ago are responsible for much of this. For example, Teachers for Social Justice. Somewhere on that site is lesson plan that says "children will learn to identify with the feelings of farm animals".

@Shouting Thomas: Excellent comment.

Freder Frederson said...

I'd love to see the before and after bills for garbage pickup after ziploc bags were banned. I'm certain it would justify all of the shaming.

It is not unusual to reduce garbage amounts by 50% or more by introducing recycling and reuse programs. So effectively you would cut your disposal bills by a similar amount. Garbage disposal is generally billed by the number of dumpsters or visits. So reducing lightweight garbage (e.g., paper and plastic) is highly effective.

Maguro said...

Ritual is all it is - the true environmental cost of ziploc bags vs reusable tupperware is an utterly trivial issue in the context of a modern American life.

An upper middle class American life is so resource intensive worrying about paper lunch bags is utterly absurd. The enviro do-gooders who push these rules don't think twice about flying to Europe or Hawaii on carbon-spewing jets for their vacations. They don't worry about the carbon footprint of their new quartz countertop or the environmental impact of that delicious sashimi plate they had the other night. They don't care about the environment at all, not really.

All this environmental bullshit is about signalling - demonstrating that you're the right kind of white person.

Palladian said...

I think children whose parents don't comply with this edict should be publically stoned to death, and the mother (or equivalent, for non-traditional households) be forced to clean up the resulting mess as a way to discourage these vile wreckers from future transgressions.

There is no shortage of children; they're fungible. The earth and our environment isn't.

Saint Croix said...

What snotty kids.

Children look up to authority and believe what they are told. When you're a child you don't even realize how much you do this.

In the teen years you resist your parent's authority, often because you learned something new from some other authority.

When I was 24 I wrote a paper on abortion for this cute girl who didn't want to do the work. (I was so frickin' whipped it's kind of embarrassing). Doing that research made me realize that my pro-choice assumptions were completely wrong.

The older you get, the more you realize how full of shit authorities can be.

Young people are not revolutionary at all, in my opinion. They believe what they are taught for years, if not decades.

The opportunities for political indoctrination at school is frightening. And just another reason to despise liberalism.

Freder Frederson said...

I'm sure you're a sanctimonious asshole.

I'm a sanctimonious asshole? You are the ones who reject any environmental initiative out of hand, even if it saves money.

DADvocate said...

SI am sure you can figure out for yourself if your food is safe

Actually, I can. Been doing that for years. The FDA has some usefulness in drug testing but their failures are legendary - thalidomide, etc.

Of course, you're diverting from the actual discussion. No one's talking about the USDA and FDA here. We're talking about a totalitarian approach to environmentalism in schools. Your line of logic, which supports totalitarianism, is that if we have an USDA and FDA, then we should allow government intrusion into every nook and cranny of our lives.

Darrell said...

Garbage disposal is generally billed by the number of dumpsters or visits.

At city (public) schools? Maybe on your home planet.

Plastic bags are also good for ending the argument with true believers. If they are big enough and air tight.

DADvocate said...

You are the ones who reject any environmental initiative out of hand, even if it saves money.

No. You are the one making gross over-generalizations of others because they don't fall lockstep into your line of thinking.

Carol_Herman said...

There was a time in America a kid considered an apple 'a lunch.'

And, you bet. Excellent paranting advice! As soon as little junior makes a complaint ... (which is based on trying to fit into their peer group) ... Let the kid PLAN what they want. And, be involved in HOW it gets prepared. So, they can do it, themselves.

Now, for some reason, I remember waxed paper. I don't remember baggies. And, yes. I remember it was okay to provide those "neon" lunch bags ...

But it really is the best idea, when a kid "complains" ... to involve them in "fixing it!" WIN-WIN

Freder Frederson said...

Actually, I can. Been doing that for years. The FDA has some usefulness in drug testing but their failures are legendary - thalidomide, etc.

You do realize that thalidomide is one of the FDA's crowning success stories, don't you? Thalidomide was never approved for the treatment of morning sickness like it was in Europe. Thalidomide was a European, not American, problem.

Palladian said...

Darrell, that's a wonderful idea! Instead of stoning the children of transgressors, they should instead be taken to a public place and be smothered inside a big plastic bag!

It's all about the correct gestures.

SGT Ted said...

More hip bigotry from leftists.

Freder Frederson said...

At city (public) schools? Maybe on your home planet.

Even if the school didn't have to pay for garbage disposal (and I would imagine this is a very unusual situation), the cost would be borne by some government agency, so the net benefit would still accrue to the taxpayer. Garbage disposal, even if it is run by the city (and more and more it is contracted out), does not generate revenue.

Saint Croix said...

One day the bag police and the dog poo patrol are going to have an all-out war.

AllenS said...

When Algore packs his own lunch, he uses vines that he gathers from the forest floor to wrap around his sandwitches so they don't fall apart. Why can't these kids do the same thing? To quote, garage, "It makes no sense to me".

Freder Frederson said...

You are the one making gross over-generalizations of others because they don't fall lockstep into your line of thinking.

I take my cues from Ann.

I have explained clearly that source reduction is a benefit to all involved, yet you continue to equate it with totalitarianism.

Actually, lack of environmental awareness is hallmark of totalitarianism. You have everything backwards.

DADvocate said...

I take my cues from Ann.

Way to take responsibility for your own actions. That Ann, she's quite a manipulator.

I have explained clearly that source reduction is a benefit to all involved, yet you continue to equate it with totalitarianism.

Actually, lack of environmental awareness is hallmark of totalitarianism. You have everything backwards.


You lied about the main point of the article. You're arguing that if something is "a benefit to all" then the totalitarian approach is OK. Then you equate lack of environmental awareness with totalitarianism when there is no such relationship. Nothing but lies. Please, keep digging.

DaveW said...

My sandwiches were wrapped in wax paper when I was a kid. Now that I think of it I haven't seen a roll of wax paper in a long time.

I wasn't aware that ziplock bags are a no-no now. We use them all the time and will continue to do so.

Lincolntf said...

FF, here's a clue as to how we know that this "green initiative" is a massive waste of time and money. THEY ALL ARE. Whether they're banning plastic bags or paper bags, or whatever they want banned this week, the result will be the same. More control over the minutiae of American's lives and more claims that "we have done "NOTHING!!!" to stop "climate change". Tens of billions of taxpayer dollars flushed down the ethanol hole and it's still "NOTHING!!!" to the hysterics. Every family in the country forced to sort their garbage, and that's "NOTHING!!!" to the hysterics as well. Massive taxes on fuel, confiscated land, banned soaps, banned light bulbs... and still the hysterics cry "NOTHING!!!".
They're all frauds and you're a fool for falling for it again and again and again.

Ann Althouse said...

"Leaving aside the "shaming", what did you find objectionable about schools trying to reduce costs through encouraging the use of reusable containers? Are you so opposed to environmental protection that even environmental initiatives that actually save money are still stupid ideas?"

I support reducing waste in the schools. And I have a lot of ideas for things the schools can do to eliminate paper waste and other waste long before they tell overworked moms they can't use sandwich bags (which are probably less carbon-footprint-y than washing Tupperware every night).

Give the kids Kindle readers with their books all preloaded, for example.

And stop doing those shitty art projects. No more art! It's ruining the earth.

Milwaukee said...

Are there no moms commenting on this? No one who has ever worked at a school? Does any one here actually believe that those children will dutifully return their empty lunch containers, everyday? Yes, a plastic box might be cheaper than baggies over the course of a year. But what if the parent needs to buy two or three boxes because the kid can't remember to bring it home?

Wax paper might be cheaper than plastic bags, but for cut fruit, a bag might be better.

The sooner we are done with public schools, and their corrupting influence on children, the better. Don't forget, isn't California the state that requires teaching about the historical contributions of homosexuals and lesbians?

What happened? The first time I read the linked article, I managed to get through to it. The second time, to double check what I was referring to, I found a firewall of a disreputable newspaper.

Neomom, I agree. Modesty and chastity would seem more important than being green.

If you want to reduce trash at public schools, cut their photocopying privileges.

The high school I used to teach at annually had huge piles of abandoned clothing and school supplies at the end of the year, and in the lost and found.

Irene said...

"Some people wash and reuse ziploc bags."

Mom says, "Hi."

Ann Althouse said...

What we're seeing here is kids disciplining parents, using retrograde psychological manipulation. And it's not just the kids, it is The State coopting and using the kids as tools against their parents.

Thanks for pushing me to say more openly how evil I think this is. Breaking the parent-child hierarchy: historically, how has that worked out?

Freder Frederson said...

Give the kids Kindle readers with their books all preloaded, for example.

Considering you believe in cutting school budgets to the bone, how exactly do you plan to pay for these Kindles?

Ann Althouse said...

"Mom says, "Hi.""

I say "hi" back to your extremely cool and genuinely indomitable mom. I'd love to know her opinion of schools that coopt children to indoctrinate and control parents.

Lincolntf said...

"Considering you believe in cutting school budgets to the bone, how exactly do you plan to pay for these Kindles?"

Maybe by actually spending the money on educating kids rather than spending it on the care and feeding of the bloated layabouts who've been abusing their positions for decaes? Fire the shitty tachers (and that means any teacher who still needs a "coach" after years on the job) and you'll save tons of money while improving education. But that would work against the Lefty model of using Education as a jobs program for Union slugs rather than as a teaching program for kids.

Darrell said...

Palladian--I said ending the argument with the environmental nazis. Kids not yet indoctrinated would just pop the bag. With their lit cigarettes, if they had to.

And Freder still must tell us why he hates union sanitation workers so. And the crews that work the municipal recycling centers. And he should probably get a scale and weigh a plastic sandwich bag and the usual amount of wax paper, or calculate the volume of same. We have to know which is really "holier" than the other. And maybe he can visit all the idiots that are getting sick with their bring-a-long shopping bags because they don't wash and sterilize them. Or send them appropriate natural wild flowers, that appeared naturally with a few kilometers of their homes. Loco-varieties for the Locos.

PatCA said...

I rinse aluminum foil and reuse it. Doesn't everyone?? My mother, who grew up during the depression, taught me that. I now will do that with ziplocs, too.

Re the savings on garbage disposal: our little burb recently mandated recycling by residents, even tho we were meeting our state-mandated goals and even tho there is no market for recycled trash now. The trash company bought us all those horrid bins. How could they afford it? They couldn't explain. My guess is they laid off their sorters because we were doing it for free. So now they're on unemployment and we are working harder than ever--for the trash company.

Public/private partnership! Win-win!

Irene said...

"I say "hi" back to your extremely cool and genuinely indomitable mom. I'd love to know her opinion of schools that coopt children to indoctrinate and control parents."

Mom is an Eastern European disciplinarian that believes parents should have the final say about everything. She is very "old school." For example, she thinks it is a mistake for schools to have psychologists and social workers on staff. She thinks schools should test children in the "hard" subjects. She doesn't believe there is such a thing as a "poor test taker." She thinks many of the problems in today's society emerged from schools that pandered to weakness.

For those that don't know, Mom also is a retired pediatrician.

Irene said...

"who believes"

Sorry

Jay said...

This is just like unionism.

If it is so great, why is there coercion?

Oh, it isn't so great.

Never mind.

NMP said...

So basically we have school sanctioned bullying, I'm guessing if children came home in tears because they were shamed by their peers for many other reasons the school would not be ok with it. But here they figure it's up to the parents to do what the bullies want, and if they don't it's their fault the child comes home in tears.

‘Well, I want her to have a choice, and if I put in a peanut butter-and-jelly sandwich and a ham sandwich, she has a choice,’
I suspect if the kid has a choice, one of these sandwiches is going in the garbage when she gets home, but they have trained them to be more concerned about the plastic baggie than the waste of food. And as the article states, these tupperware get lost all the time and I have to buy new ones, is it still more environmentally friendly to use tupperware?

On "No Waste Wednesdays" the best that happens, if I am in the mood, is that I am going to take my son's granola bar out of its wrapping throw the wrapping away and pack the granola bar. Less waste? Not really...

Just one more thing: my son used to come home and draw brown stinky planet with dead people on it and tell me this is what was going to happen if we didn't recyle, and green happy planets and say this is why we recycle. Not once but all the time, he was 5 and in kindergarten.

Freder Frederson said...

it is The State coopting and using the kids as tools against their parents.

You are really getting quite shrill. You have been reading your comments too much.

Saint Croix said...

Considering you believe in cutting school budgets to the bone, how exactly do you plan to pay for these Kindles?

Bust the union and hire more teachers?

Your name is really freaking me out for some reason. Freder Frederson. Freder Frederson.

Major Major Major Major is funny. But Freder Frederson is freaking me out.

It's like Freder, the son of Freder, the son of Freder. It's Freders all the way back. It's a monolith of Freders.

Have a son and call him Bob. Please. For the planet.

(Metropolis reference, I guess?)

edutcher said...

Point 2 is especially salient, but any family chi-chi enough to be a subject in the Gray Lady would die of embarrassment if the kids packed their own lunch.

neomom said...

We aren't supposed to teach modesty and abstinence because we shouldn't shame our children about the multitude of dangers of promiscuity, but it is perfectly fine to shame them about @*#&! lunchbags?

What it the world is this country coming to?


What that "distinguished educator" and small c communist William Ayers and his friends at the Columbia University School of Education wanted all along. A highly directable nation of sheep.

PS Freder is actually criticizing the Gray Lady. The Lweft may collapse sooner than expected.

Cedarford said...

1. Watching blacks line up for their free lunches, I saw them getting things pre-made in clear or foam plastic clamshells with plastic knives and forks. With their free water and free high fructose "healthy" juice in plastic containers.

2. Most schools have their "recycling" programs for paper, plastic...even hiring employees to "fish out" the free clamshells and free beverage containers from regular trash of left on cafeteria counters when the free lunch crowd saunters off.

3. The amount of petroleum "used" in a years worth of sandwich bags is vanishingly small...less than one sneaker, less than one mile of travel by air by an environmentalist to some "pristine" natural place. Just like the trivial amount of petroluem used in supermarket bags...especially when people recycle.
This is all about Green Nazi indoctrination of Moms and kids.

DADvocate said...

Considering you believe in cutting school budgets to the bone, how exactly do you plan to pay for these Kindles?

Have you priced text books vs Kindles? It sounds like you'd be surprised. Of course, you sound like reality would surprise you a lot.

Big Mike said...

So environmentalism means eating dried-out sandwiches for lunch?

Tim said...

Actually, lack of environmental awareness is hallmark of totalitarianism.

Actually, Hitler was a vegetarian and conscientious environmentalist by the lights of his time. Nazi policy could only be described as eco-friendly, long before the term was coined. This is well-known to any student of history who has bothered to read about this period. Goering, for example, was pushing a plan to turn Poland and large swaths of Mitteleuropa into nature preserves for long-threatened European megafauna, once it was cleared of Slavic Untermenschen. There is no question much of continental Europe would have been much better off, from an environmental standpoint, if the Nazis had their way.

The Soviets were, of course, entirely the opposite, fitting nicely into Freder's thesis. Environmental catastrophes in the former Soviet Union are famous, from the devastation of the Ukraine in the 1920's to Chernobyl.

This is, of course, not to justify Hitler or excuse the Soviets, but to point out that quoting the example of totalitarian environmental policies is not as good a rhetorical cudgel as its bearer might suppose.

virgil xenophon said...

Washing and reusing plastic bags (ziploc or otherwise) is often (as my wife the RN reminds me) a health hazard in that unless one gets them TOTALLY squeeky clean, food/grease smears can grow bacteria after washing--as does any remaining moisture unless they are thoroughly dried. So trying to solve one ecological problem often leads to another "ecological" problem of a different kind (the health/medical terrain.)

Dust Bunny Queen said...

So environmentalism means eating dried-out sandwiches for lunch?
Like DAD said.

Go back to what we used BEFORE there was such a thing as plastic lunch bags.

Waxed paper.

No big deal.

And Ann is right. Make your own freaking lunches you snotty spoiled children.

AllenS said...

Cedarford, that was nicely said.

Freder Frederson said...

This is, of course, not to justify Hitler or excuse the Soviets, but to point out that quoting the example of totalitarian environmental policies is not as good a rhetorical cudgel as its bearer might suppose.

Yes, there were exactly two totalitarian regimes in the world. And since they were split 50/50 between caring about the environment and destroying it, my thesis is disproven.

Oh wait, Nazi Germany and the USSR aren't the only totalitarian regimes ever to exist.

(And of course, leaving aside that the Nazis had romantic attachments to country life, waging total war and killing 30 million plus people is hardly environmentally friendly.)

Lincolntf said...

So how many gallons of water will be wasted washing plastic bags over the course of a kid's education? Won't Gaia get thirsty? Drought! Global Warming! Ban the re-use of plastic bags at our schools! For the children!
Knotheads.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Food waste must now be cooked (heated through to boiling for 30 minutes) before it can be used as animal feed.

Ha in a pigs eye. Our local pig farmer routinely takes any kind of leftover fruits and vegetables from our orchards and the restaurants wilted produce that is going to be thrown out anyway. Every year I take her barrels of windfall apples and pears.

The grocery store also donates to her all of the outdated dairy. Those pigs are feasting on Tillamook yogurt, milk, sour cream and cheese.

Best pork EVER!!

So you think we should get rid of the USDA and FDA? I am sure you can figure out for yourself if your food is safe

Basically....yes. Or at least cut them down to size. Geeze how did we all survive before the FDA???. All of our ancestors must have died from food poisoning.

Freder Frederson said...

Cedarford, a question.

Why do you have to bring race into the conversation, even when it has nothing to do with the subject at hand?

I.e., you mentioned "watching blacks line up for their free lunches". Have you never seen a white person accept a free lunch or seen a white homeless person?

Or is it just because you are a fucking racist asshole?

I suspect it is the latter.

Big Mike said...

What is the "bullshit" part? You don't believe that waste can be reduced?

Well, in the case of ziploc sandwich bags, that's not what you're doing, is it? Is there less waste using ziplocs than wrapping a sandwich in paper, the way my mother did 55 years ago when I was in elementary school? In fact there was more waste in the form of volume, wasn't there? Moreover if the local community is truly environmentally conscious then they incinerate their waste stream and do co-generation instead of expending diesel fuel for the waste to be buried in a landfill. And there is a lot more energy released from incinerating plastic bags than paper. Moreover, the paper bags used to wrap children's food can't use recycled paper, can they, due to the possibility of heavy metal or carcinogenic contaminants?

As I commented on another thread, it would be good if liberals would stop and ask in what ways their theories could be wrong.

edutcher said...

Freder Frederson said...

This is, of course, not to justify Hitler or excuse the Soviets, but to point out that quoting the example of totalitarian environmental policies is not as good a rhetorical cudgel as its bearer might suppose.

Yes, there were exactly two totalitarian regimes in the world. And since they were split 50/50 between caring about the environment and destroying it, my thesis is disproven.

Oh wait, Nazi Germany and the USSR aren't the only totalitarian regimes ever to exist.

(And of course, leaving aside that the Nazis had romantic attachments to country life, waging total war and killing 30 million plus people is hardly environmentally friendly.)


Oh, but it was. It removed tens of millions of those filthy humans (and untermenschen, in the bargain) from the ecosystem.

Freder just doesn't get it.

Rabel said...

Excuse me, but this article has one single purpose. That is to provide publicity for "working mom" Julie Corbett and her company, Ecologic.

From the article:
"After she saw how much waste she could reduce by changing her lunch packaging routine, she started an eco-friendly packaging company, Ecologic."

From Ecologic's website:
"Working mom Julie Corbett was shocked by the amount of plastic jugs and cartons her family produced on a regular basis, and decided to do something about it."

Their original products were half-gallon milk jugs and laundry detergent containers. Nothing to do with school lunches.

From the working mom's biography:
"Prior to Ecologic, Julie was a partner at Jurika & Voyles, a $7.2 Bn institutional investment management firm. She has over 16 years of marketing and investment experience at Royal Bank of Canada and RBC Dominion Securities."

This everyday housewife raised 9 million in start-up money.

More power to this well-to-do, connected woman for starting a company in 2008 and planting this recent story in the Times but it's marketing disguised as news. Also, it's her second promo by the article's author.

Sorin said...

“…Well, I want her to have a choice, and if I put in a peanut butter-and-jelly sandwich and a ham sandwich, she has a choice…”

What disgusts me in this article is the woman who only provides her child with two lunch choices. Today’s parents are so lazy. That precious child should have at least four entre choices with a hand printed menu, color coded so that she knows what’s in her cotton lunch bags or colored tupperware. These will neatly fit into her solar hamper with heating and cooling compartments and flatware drawer.

Big Mike said...

@Freder, I've seen black people line up for their free lunches wearing expensive leather coats and with shoes on their kids' feet that cost in excess of $150 a pair -- something I couldn't afford in those days (and wouldn't have spent if I could afford it) despite a very good-paying job as a computer systems designer. That was the start of my questioning of liberal orthodoxy, and initiated my transition into a Republican fiscal conservative.

DADvocate said...

I rinse aluminum foil and reuse it. Doesn't everyone??

Of course.

I save plastic bread loaf bags and reuse them, cottage cheese containers, and such instead of Tupperware. In fast food restaurants and convenient stores/gas stations, I take extra napkins. The blue ones for your windshield make good paper towesl at home.

When I get a "to go" box at a restaurant, I'll get an extra in case I need it at home.

Living out in the country, I'll burn much of my garbage to lower my garbage bills and avoid overflowing landfills. I'll cut down a tree or two every year to heat my house (no coal burning electricity for me), and make my own chunk charcoal for cooking.

And, that's just the beginning.

Freder Frederson said...

Or at least cut them down to size. Geeze how did we all survive before the FDA???. All of our ancestors must have died from food poisoning.

Sometimes you write things so profoundly stupid that I am suprised you are capable of breathing on your own.

Of course the answer to your question is yes, our ancestors did die frequently of food poisoning, along with all kinds of other nasty air and water borne diseases that have been all but eradicated over the last 150 years or so because of government interference. Damn those interfering government bureaucrats for requiring that people get vaccinated, water systems deliver clean water and food is not contaminated.

Oligonicella said...

Freder Frederson --

Leaving aside the "shaming", what did you find objectionable about schools trying to reduce costs through encouraging the use of reusable containers?

Are you aware that the absolutely least environmental impact/cost effective/reusable container is... wait for it... a zip-lock bag. Rinse and use a hundred times. Costs a dot of petroleum to make. Nothing, absolutely nothing, touches it as the cheapest and most land-fill caring of containers.

Please refute me.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

I rinse aluminum foil and reuse it. Doesn't everyone?? My mother, who grew up during the depression, taught me that.

Me too!

I buy aluminum foil in a giant roll once a year at Costco. Rinse and fold up the pieces that are usable and reuse. Big boxes of freezer zip bags and also wash and reuse.

I still use waxed paper for baking. Best ever for rolling out pie crusts and great for beating the hell out of chicken breasts to make Chicken Kiev.

Also I have figured out how to thwart the enviro nazis who have ruined the dishwasher and clothes washing soaps. They removed the phosphate so you dishes and clothes do not get clean.

Easy fix. Buy some TSP at the hardware store. REAL Tri Sodium Phosphate, not the substitute stuff. A scant teaspoon the the dishwasher soap dispenser along with the crap soap and ....ta dah!!!!! clean dishes.

Take that enviro nazis!!

You're welcome.

Freder Frederson said...

Freder, I've seen black people line up for their free lunches wearing expensive leather coats and with shoes on their kids' feet that cost in excess of $150 a pair

But never poor white people, I guess. You must live in an all black neighborhood. Which makes me wonder, if you hate black people so much why are they apparently your (and Cedarford's) entire social circle?

DADvocate said...

Why do you have to bring race into the conversation, even when it has nothing to do with the subject at hand?

Bwahahahahahaha!!

This question for you, who will throw any stupid accusation into the fray.

Freder Frederson said...

They removed the phosphate so you dishes and clothes do not get clean.

Do you have any idea how environmentally damaging phosphate pollution is? It wasn't banned just because some envirowacko got a bug up his ass. Google "Gulf dead zone" someday if you want to fully appreciate the problems caused by excess phosphorus and nitrogen in water.

You know some of these regulations actually are beneficial.

PatCA said...

Sure, Freder, they're only making us safe. With guns and everything.

MayBee said...

Basically....yes. Or at least cut them down to size. Geeze how did we all survive before the FDA???. All of our ancestors must have died from food poisoning.

What's funny to me is how all the people who spent years screeching the government must keep us safe from food dangers are now also in love with the home-farmed farmer's market eggs, vegetables, and meats.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Geeze how did we all survive before the FDA???. All of our ancestors must have died from food poisoning.

"Sometimes you write things so profoundly stupid that I am suprised [sic]you are capable of breathing on your own."

You obviously have no sense of humor or understanding of sarcasm.

Hopeless case.

Jennifer said...

I made a huge batch of soup once, and took some of the extra to our single German neighbor with a few toppings separated out in ziploc bags. He washed the container and returned it - along with the washed ziploc bags.

I don't even see ziploc bags in a lot of the stores here. Or reusable silverware. Or disposable plates. It's really not that hard to kick the habit, if you so desire. But, it does create a lot of extra washing for Mom.

And a lot of extra unloading of the dishwasher for the kids.

Paul Zrimsek said...

Next year, schools combine all their classes in a single room to avoid wasting space, and replace wasteful pencils and paper with environmentally friendly, reusable slates.

Milwaukee said...

NMP said...

So basically we have school sanctioned bullying, I'm guessing if children came home in tears because they were shamed by their peers for many other reasons the school would not be ok with it. But here they figure it's up to the parents to do what the bullies want, and if they don't it's their fault the child comes home in tears.


Spot on.
Do you remember the environmentalist ad with the exploding heads of non-compliant energy savers?

Yes, those baggies really need to be clean, or they could harbor pathogens.

Here is a tragic story of school sanctioned bullying which ended tragically for all involved. One student is dead, the other could spend years in prison and must deal with being the agent of the dead of another.
A young man in California is on trial for his life because he murdered a classmate. The classmate was openly gay or transsexual, and made the shooter the object of his affection. This 8th grader didn't have the resources he needed to fend off those advances, many made in public. Of course, he couldn't respond, as then he would be homophobic and a hater. The teachers and administrators at this school encouraged the gay/transsexual youngster. One of staff members even brought him a dress a daughter had out grown. So the school staff was encouraging the gay child in his gayness. The object of his affection felt he had no other recourse. The day before shooting his admirer, the shooter had been playing basketball with some other guys, and the victim had been sitting with a bunch of girls. The victim walked onto the court, interrupting the basketball game, and kissed the shooter. The next day the shooter shot the victim. Who was bullied there? Since being homosexual or trans is ok in California, the 8th grader shooter responded as he did.

This should have never happened. I am not smart enough to know how to solve those problems.

I'm sure somebody else can correct me if my details are in error, or if they know the outcome of the trial, perhaps they'll share.

Fr Martin Fox said...

Freder makes a common claim I think I bogus: that all this frenetic activity, backed up both by actual demands and mandates, as well as an on-all-fronts propaganda campaign, is all about "saving money."

I call BS.

If it truly saved money, why would any business have to be forced to recycle/reuse?

If they truly saved money, why do recycling programs have to be subsidized?

If they truly saved money, why isn't some enterprising entrepreneur making money on it?

Somehow, only environmental elites, or government bureaucrats, are smart enough to see the profitability of these things.

No one else, including those whose whole lives are devoted to finding ways to make a buck, are too stupid to see the potential. Who believes this nonsense?

Saint Croix said...

AllenS, shame at 10:21.

Big Mike, you embarrass yourself at 10:36.

Freder Frederson said...

I call BS.

If you are calling BS, please supply the answers to the questions you asked, rather than just posing them. Your questions seem to imply you know the answer to them. I suggest that if you did a little research you would find answers to your questions that surprise you.

Freder Frederson said...

This should have never happened. I am not smart enough to know how to solve those problems.

So are you implying that murder is a justified response to unwanted advances?

dbp said...

If my kids ever catch grief for our use of ziplok bags, I will up the ante my packing their sandwiches in aluminum foil.

dbp said...

By, not my.

Fr Martin Fox said...

The trouble with the environmental superstition is that it masquerades as fact-based, except it's not. Only pleasing facts included.

As mentioned, re-usable containers have to be washed. With soap and water. If not washed properly, that's a health hazard.

That's if the children bring them home. In the happy People's Republic of Algoria, all the brave children in the Environmental Youth Brigade dutifully bring their reusable containers home. No where else does this happen.

The other priest with me in this parish is devoted to this stuff. He saves ziplock bags, but takes his time getting around to washing them. I don't enjoy seeing dirty ziplock bags lying around, and I don't choose to spend my time washing them. I don't relish the thought of putting food I intend to eat into such bags.

He keeps a rag on the sink for wiping things up. That rag is a paradise for germs. I use a paper towel and throw it away. In a more sensible world, we'd incinerate all that stuff. I would like to see a dispassionate comparison of the costs of incineration (with the ash being captured and stored) vs. all this recycling busy work.

Of course, all this assumes landfills are the worst thing in the world. Why? Because there's no room left? Nonsense. Try driving from Reno to Las Vegas--or anywhere else, for that matter.

Cedarford said...

DBQ - "Go back to what we used BEFORE there was such a thing as plastic lunch bags.
Waxed paper.
No big deal."
****************
A science experiment for you, DBQ take 100 sheets of petroleum wax wrapping paper and put them on one part of a scale. Now put 100 plastic sandwich bags on the other scale tray.
Which way does the scale tip?
Laughable - those that claim plastic uses oil, but good old wax paper doesn't.

========================
Freder - I.e., you mentioned "watching blacks line up for their free lunches". Have you never seen a white person accept a free lunch or seen a white homeless person?

Or is it just because you are a fucking racist asshole?


My personal experience is I saw nothing but blacks lining up for free lunches. There were some poor whites and Asians that probably could have got free lunch but didn't go for it at my daughter's school - out of pride, perhaps just not wanting to have their friends see them line up with the blacks. (They brown-bagged it. One Asian at my daughters graduation got a full scholarship and proudly noted accepting it that he had never been able to afford a hot meal at school and just used his lunchtime to study)

Have we seen white homeless? Sure.
Difference between under 1% of the white population being homeless and 2/3rds of blacks at a school lining up for their free food entitlement (many wearing 150.00 sneakers as Big Mike noted, laden with gold bling, many somehow having their own fairly nice wheels...)

Racist! Hater!! - Sorry Freder, but like loving enemy rights, your screaming racist is old and trite. Mired in 60s white guilt liberalism.

Fr Martin Fox said...

Freder:

It's not my responsibility to prove your claims, nor to disprove them.

You claim it saves money. You claim its plain as plain.

Well fine, then why any need for mandates?

How can you explain this sudden epidemic of people who used to love to make money, no longer being interested in making money?

I'm guessing it's because they earn so much these days in the markets--or T-bills--that they don't care to make such easy money in recycling.

Thankfully, the all-wise government will save us!

Saint Croix said...

Milwaukee, way the fuck off point and kinda creepy at 11:06.

Saint Croix, keeping the boards clean for America. Since 11:13 a.m.

Trooper York said...

My favorite wine and cheese place had to close and sell because of the unceasing harrassment of the goverrnment. The department of health came in and wanted to fine them $1000 because they didn't list the nutriental content of the bread they were serving on the menu. In a bar.

This was the last straw after months of harrassment. They sold out to a big corporation.

Deirdre Mundy said...

If we don't recycle plastic, it will end up in the landfills, or as I like to call them "The US plastic reserve." Then we can mine it later, when we need it. Since we have all this unexploited oil in the US, I vote we use MORE plastic made from mideast oil! Drain them dry, fill the plastic reserves, and then we'll corner the world market on plastics!

It's a fool proof scheme I tell you! Think of the children! Stop recycling!

Trooper York said...

The local barber has a small two seat shop that has been there since 1947.

This guy comes in and gets a haircut. Costs eight bucks. He asks where is his reciept? Where is the price list? The seventy year old owner didn't have them. He got four tickets. He started to cry. He never so much as got a parking ticket in all his life.


The guy who gave him the ticket was a Russian immirgrant who barely spoke English.

That is what this government is all about.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

A science experiment for you, DBQ take 100 sheets of petroleum wax wrapping paper and put them on one part of a scale. Now put 100 plastic sandwich bags on the other scale tray.
Which way does the scale tip?
Laughable - those that claim plastic uses oil, but good old wax paper doesn't.


Frankly my dear, I don't give a shit.

I use what I want for the purposes that I need.

I'm not concerned about my 'carbon footprint'. If I gave a crap about it, which I don't, I could put mine up against any of the enviro nazis any time.

Global Warming is a crock and is only about trying to control the peons and reduce our quality of life. Money and Power. That is ALL it is about. The "true believers" are just useful idiots.

DADvocate said...

I.e., you mentioned "watching blacks line up for their free lunches".

It's very important for liberals not to discuss such things. This is how they keep blacks on the plantation and voting Democratic. The more blacks who realize this trap, the better off they are and the fewer votes Democrats get. The subtle racism, the malignant caring, of liberalism is good racism.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Milwaukee, way the fuck off point and kinda creepy at 11:06

Actually, very on point.

The social engineering at the schools pushing liberal/progressive agendas and indoctrinating our children IS the point.

Fr Martin Fox said...

One of the key assumptions in all this is that people are stupid--so stupid they need to be helped to see their own best interest.

Thus the article says, oh but of course a lunchbox is more economical in the long run. Its so obvious. But our doltish parents can't figure that out, so...

In the past, students performed skits about recycling but the parent-to-parent evangelism seemed more effective, Mr. Greene said.

“The kids are all about it,” Mr. Greene said, but with the parents, “you have to build habits.”


OK back to reality. Parents aren't stupid, they make choices. They figure out really fast things like:

* One lunch box, once, can be cost-effective; replacing it several times, not so much.

* My time is worth something; in fact, my time is the only commodity I cannot increase. Paying for time-saving measures is worthwhile to me.

* Fighting with my kids is a negative value. And as I can't fight every battle, I'd rather work on other good habits in my children than remembering their lunch boxes.

Phil 3:14 said...

Our Town Board has pledged that we will have a zero “carbon footprint” by some arbitrary date.

Your Town Board should look to the example of Jonestown. I think they figured it out.

Writ Small said...

Did some math on this.

Getting stats is not that easy, so I just Googled around to get rough estimates.

Found this article on a recent school budget breakdown: Franklin School Budget . The story says the total budget was around $77 million for 15 schools or a little over $5 million per school per year.

Here are some case studies I found about the impact of these waste reduction school initiatives: Case Studies . The first example specifically addresses costs saved due to garbage pickup costs, which is estimated at $1,400 per year. I found another similar example, where the savings was more than double that or $3,200, but the author said that assumed that trash pickup could be reduced fully proportionally to reduction in trash. Given trash pickup occurs typically on a schedule, that is a questionable assumption.

However, let's be generous and assume those savings are fully realizable. We're talking 0.06% impact to the budget. That's not 6% but 0.06%. Stated another way, it's about 1/20th the salary of a single teacher. If you're talking the cost of a teacher, which includes benefits, the proportion is even smaller.

I submit the fervor surrounding such programs are way out of line with the benefits. There are many far more effective ways to control school costs.

DADvocate said...

This was the last straw after months of harrassment. They sold out to a big corporation.

Many big corporations quietly support this sort of thing. It gives them a bigger piece of the market and less competition.

Big Mike said...

@Saint Croix, I'm just telling you what reality is. Deal with it as you see fit. I dealt with it by questioning my assumptions and the assumptions of liberal dogma.

I also started questioning the assumptions of Christian dogma and am now a non-proselytizing atheist . These days when a social conservative asks whether I've been saved, I say "yes" with a perfectly straight face. No sense trying to explain it to him; I don't think he'd get it. And there's no sense trying to explain my remarks at 10:36 (or this comment) any further, for pretty much the same reason.

@Freder, I've certainly seen poor white people. I've seen them in Appalachia, among other places. They do not wear expensive clothing. I question whether you've seen poor whites. But there's no sense explaining any further to you, for the same reason there's no sense trying to explain any further to St. Croix.

Oligonicella said...

DADvocate --

"Living out in the country, ... And, that's just the beginning."

Kinda neat bein' able to look an enviro-weenie in the eye and say "It doesn't work like that", ain't it?

I did a lot of that when I had the farm. Good hard work that gets you more for less.

Except for time. I'm older now and I have a time-consumptive focus, so now I just rent. More money, but more time. It's a flip.

Saint Croix said...

I've seen black people line up for their free lunches wearing expensive leather coats and with shoes on their kids' feet that cost in excess of $150 a pair -- something I couldn't afford in those days (and wouldn't have spent if I could afford it)

I have no doubt that you saw this. Here's an important question: why does their skin color fixate in your mind?

Race is such a stupid, stupid idea. Ask somebody who believes in race this question: "How many races are there?"

He doesn't know. He can't answer.

There is nothing scientific or even factual about race. It's a massive, pathological delusion shared by large numbers of people.

Democrats have always used race to get votes. They still do. Do you not see Democrats label Republicans as "racist," over and over again? That's in order to get votes.

You think you know something about race? You don't. Race is a retarded concept that tells you nothng about a human being. Shut up about it. Please. Let the Democrats wallow in their obsession. Rise above it and see an individual as an individual.

Anton said...

Reminds me of a P.J. O'Rourke quote: "Everybody wants to help Save The Earth, but nobody wants to help Mom do the dishes."

Trooper York said...

DADvocate said.....
Many big corporations quietly support this sort of thing. It gives them a bigger piece of the market and less competition.

Well that is certainly true in Carroll Gardens. The Mom and Pop stores have a rough time of it. Everyweek there is a new regulation or other thing they have to comply with. I am in full complaince but everyonce in a while the old timers come in and ask me for help. Just to survive. You see they own the buildings and don't have reason to deal with regulatory agencies since they opened in the 1940's.

But the Department of Consumer affiars don't give a shit. And the yuppie scumbags who have moved in are the first ones to make a complaint instead of hashing it out with the storeowner then and there. They are snitches and losers. They would be happy for block after block of TGIF Fridays and Starbucks and Dunkin Donuts. They don't support the little guy. The Mom and Pop stores.

They are people like Freder.

Fr Martin Fox said...

By the way, in case no one figured this out...

I run a school, with 200+ students. If someone can save us even $500 a year through any of this, great. If it saves money. But--for example--if our teachers and staff have to run around more hours a day on this stuff, that doesn't save money, that's a huge cost increase.

I don't need my teachers messing around with recycling bins, I need them teaching. I can't afford to pay our maintenance folks to get everything done, so we rely on volunteers, or some things wait.

As it happens, we're doing some of this recycling stuff. But the impetus wasn't saving money; it was, more of less, "we have to do this"--meaning legal and/or moral suasion.

And we do it, because I don't need to spend time pointing out all the questionable assumptions, and defying city hall. Almost everyone assumes this is virtuous. I have other fish to fry.

Milwaukee said...

Saint Croix said...

Milwaukee, way the fuck off point and kinda creepy at 11:06.

Saint Croix, keeping the boards clean for America. Since 11:13 a.m.


Isn't the point school sanctioned bullying?

Saint Croix said...

Isn't the point school sanctioned bullying?

No! It's insidious indoctrination!

Now write it 500 times until you get it.

Milwaukee said...

My eggs this morning were fixed with onions and green peppers sauteed in butter, seasoned with crushed red chili peppers, several hands full of fresh chopped spinach, some previously browned turkey sausage and grated cheese. The most extensive packaging was for the eggs: a tri-fold of plastic for the "cage free chicken eggs, chickens who had only been been vegetarian organic feed". Wow. They were packaged in a sheet of plastic which lacks a recycling label. The plastic had dents for 12 eggs in three sections. The eggs went in the middle then 1/3rd folded over the top, and then the final third folded over that. When I got to the store late Saturday night, those were the only eggs left. The packaging was extreme. Seems paradoxical: all this packaging for organic eggs.

But I digress, as it seems the topic isn't necessarily the inconsistencies of the enviro-radical-left, but school sanctioned bullying.

The eggs were good. I do make my own sourdough-whole wheat bread. Bread making is theraputic and relaxing and I know, approximately, what is in it. Besides, bread molds don't seem to like my bread. So bread which has been in the refrigerator for weeks will be mold free. I make my own yogurt as well, and that too seems to have a longer shelf life than store bought yogurt.

DBQ: thanks.

AllenS said...

Hey, Saint Croix, after you've finished keeping the chalk boards clean, help separate the garbage would you?

Kit said...

I wasn't aware that ziplock bags are a no-no now. We use them all the time and will continue to do so.

There not a no-no...wash and reuse. We've been doing it for years. Our daughter was even able to ask her college roommate to stop throwing them away, cuz, hey, I was gonna wash them.

Seems like something someone could mention to these folks.

Milwaukee said...

Croix: isn't the school sanctioned bullying just one more tool in the insidious indoctrination? Could we say then that

"Insidious indoctrination is going on in our schools. The school staff goes so far in this indoctrination as to sanction bullying. They get little toadys to bully other students to achieve a result the staff can't get to directly."?

I won't write that 500 times. Writing lines is so antediluvian. Want me to copy and paste 500 times?

Saint Croix said...

Hey, Saint Croix, after you've finished keeping the chalk boards clean, help separate the garbage would you?

You got it. White trash over here!

MadisonMan said...

Tupperware to the rescue. And have the kid make her own lunch.

Big Mike said...

@Saint Croix, back in the 1960's I demonstrated for civil rights as a college student. Your sophistry notwithstanding, I find that racial divisions are as bad -- in some ways worse! -- than they were 45+ years ago. I demonstrated in favor of a color-blind country. Liberal Democrats, as you correctly point out, are the primary stumbling block, with African-Americans themselves as a close-run second.

Another reason for despising liberals.

Saint Croix said...

isn't the school sanctioned bullying just one more tool in the insidious indoctrination?

I don't get the analogy. It's like saying if we indoctrinate our kids so that they become enviro-weenies, one of them might snap and put industrial waste in the coffemaker.

Betsy said...

Here's the view from momworld: I have at the moment 4 sandwich boxes for the kids. I think they break or get lost at the rate of one a year. (Or get phased out for being "uncool" like the Noah's Ark ones.) Compared to the cost of sandwich bags (pleated is fine and works better than ziploc for odd-shaped bread), it's a loss. The advantage is just that the sandwich doesn't get smushed in a hard-sided box.

My gripe with environmentalism in the schools is a kid who says everything should be solar- or wind-powered, but then leaves the light on in his room all the time.

The most appalling thing about this article in particular is that, like many things going on at school, there's no hesitation to take up more of the parents' time. Like those school projects for kindergarteners which, let's face it, are projects for the parents.

PETER V. BELLA said...

There is no shame because there is no global warming. Just like the rest of the frauds, green house gasses and carbon whatever.

Parents need to teach their children the truth- you take your lunch in the bags we provide. If you want greenie weenie containers let your friends buy them for you.

Kirk Parker said...

Fr. Martin,

"...that people are stupid unless they work for the government".

FIFY.

Kirk Parker said...

"And stop doing those shitty art projects. No more art! It's ruining the earth. "

Oh, my yes--as if you didn't do enough already to be on my #1 hit list! It's too bad you aren't Catholic, we could have someone nominate you for canonization.

Maguro said...

"Hey, you got your insidious indoctrination in my school sanctioned bullying!"

"No, you got your school sanctioned bullying in my insidious indoctrination!"

Two great tastes that tadte great together.

Chef Mojo said...

@Milwaukee:

The most extensive packaging was for the eggs: a tri-fold of plastic for the "cage free chicken eggs, chickens who had only been been vegetarian organic feed". Wow. They were packaged in a sheet of plastic which lacks a recycling label.

Check the packaging again. I'm pretty sure that the plastic is corn resin, which is biodegradable. Hence, the lack of a recycling symbol.

Saint Croix said...

your sophistry

white trash was just a verbal pun, I honestly meant no offense

Liberal Democrats, as you correctly point out, are the primary stumbling block, with African-Americans themselves as a close-run second.

Africa is a whole continent. It's idiotic, the words we use.

Can you imagine saying, "European-American"? Whole societies--the French, Italians, Swedes, the Irish--lumped together. But they're all so different!

Africa is the same way.

I find it incredibly sloppy and stupid to talk about millions of people who we don't know, like we know 'em. That's all.

I do it, too. I catch myself saying "white people" or "black people." But in the back of my mind I know, without any doubt whatsoever, this is an insane and hopelessly stupid way to talk about human beings.

Chef Mojo said...

A quick note about reusing ziplocks, dairy containers, etc.

If I were found to be doing that in my restaurant by the health department, I would be cited for a critical violation. That's a real big no-no, even though I would be running them through a Quatenary sanitizer solution, which pretty much kills any known pathogen. The point is that they don't trust me or any other restaurant to do so.

And I know y'all aren't using Quat tablets at home to sanitize your "reusable" ziplocks.

Chances are, you won't kill anyone by reusing ziplocks, but all it takes is a pathogen bloom from that little, unseen bit of tuna salad left in the bag to do the trick.

My ziplocks go into the trash, at home and at work.

Freeman Hunt said...

Good lord.

Saint Croix said...

@Saint Croix, back in the 1960's I demonstrated for civil rights as a college student.

That is very noble and I salute you.

I got off on a rant and since I was working off your comment, you took it as a personal attack. It's really an attack against a mindset, and a reminder to myself not to think that way or be that way.

By the time I got to "Shut up. Please." I'm talking to the universe, and our national obsession about race. Race is so boring, and stupid. It tells us nothing about an individual and all it does is make us all angry.

Anyway, you said very little to warrant what must have seemed like an attack on your character. My apologies.

Milwaukee said...

Saint Croix said...

your sophistry

white trash was just a verbal pun, I honestly meant no offense


I did notice that, it came right after "cleaning the white boards". O.K., an attempt at humor. Good.

I do recall that recently a White member of Congress used "uppity" to describe somebody, and they claimed to not know that "uppity" was offensive. I will agree with members of the African-American community that "uppity" was frequently used as an adjective for a racial slur, and yes, it's use is offensive. So, this attempt at humor needs to go down as a fail. However, Roger Rabbit says that somebody who doesn't have a sense of humor might as well be dead, which is a little harsh. So, don't let us critics stop you from trying humor again. You might get it one of these times. I've noticed when I need to explain my humor, it wasn't.

Tim said...

I've volunteered at lot at my son's Catholic school (where, in fact, I'll be teaching this coming year), and I'll vouch for what Fr. Martin says: Every penny counts, and teacher time is all-important. The schedule at my son's school is incredibly tight, and is getting tighter next year. There are no spare resources in most Catholic schools, so every decision has to be made with a thrifty eye. Not worrying too much about lunch bags is one of them.

In a perfect world, kids would take care of their nice, ecologically-responsible lunch gear. Having just raised two boys into high school, I can say what every other parent knows: The typical 4th grade boy will lose and/or trash 3 expensive lunch boxes and 2 thermoses a year. That year our oldest went through $56 worth of lunch equipment alone. His more responsible younger brother only broke 2 lunchboxes.

All that buys a lot of cheap sandwich bags, not to mention the free brown bags we always save from stores. And then there's the aluminum foil we carefully reuse whenever possible.

All this reminds me of Gandhi, about whom his son, I believe, said, "It cost us a great deal of money to keep Father in poverty."

The price of symbolic virtue has always been high. A lot of us just can't afford it.

edutcher said...

Freder Frederson said...

Or at least cut them down to size. Geeze how did we all survive before the FDA???. All of our ancestors must have died from food poisoning.

Sometimes you write things so profoundly stupid that I am suprised you are capable of breathing on your own.

Of course the answer to your question is yes, our ancestors did die frequently of food poisoning, along with all kinds of other nasty air and water borne diseases that have been all but eradicated over the last 150 years or so because of government interference. Damn those interfering government bureaucrats for requiring that people get vaccinated, water systems deliver clean water and food is not contaminated.


Wrong on 2 counts. First, a lot of people probably didn't die of food poisoning as they had long since learned how long food could be kept, how to keep it, and when to throw it out.

Second, a lot of the disease prevention mechanisms, such as getting rid of the community dipper, came along and were implemented long before the era of intrusive government (the last 80 years or so) and were the result of concerned citizens pushing the ideas in town meetings.

Cedarford said...

Saint Croix said...
I've seen black people line up for their free lunches wearing expensive leather coats and with shoes on their kids' feet that cost in excess of $150 a pair -- something I couldn't afford in those days (and wouldn't have spent if I could afford it)

"I have no doubt that you saw this. Here's an important question: why does their skin color fixate in your mind?"

It's a question only a brain-dead PC liberal can ask. People notice patterns. Patterns fixate. Seeing a long line of blacks and blacks only lined up for free lunches while wearing lots of bling and designer sneakers - is a pattern. Seeing a series of flash mobs with "troubled black youths" and troubled black youths alone - people notice a pattern.

"Race is such a stupid, stupid idea....There is nothing scientific or even factual about race. It's a massive, pathological delusion shared by large numbers of people."

Funny how so many doctors share that pathologial delusion, prescribing medicines based on race because of different reactions and doing testing for certain diseases based on race. Chinese are at high risk for some diseases, Aborigines others, blacks are well-known for several high risk conditions...Plus well accepted, globally - race based physical and mental differences noted.
About the only place you can say "race is a social construct" is in certain universities and black, liberal-dominated agencies of the Federal government.

Slim Jim said...

I call Bullsh*t too on the "reduces trash collection costs" argument. They likely are not paying for waste removal by volume, rather they likely have regularly scheduled pick ups. The truck will come and empty the trash container regardless of whether its empty of full.

Fr Martin Fox said...

Slim Jim:

Also...even if there is a lower cost to pickups, I'd want to know:

> Is the trash hauler charging less because of either a government mandate, subsidy or tax incentive?

The tricks are endless.

Hereabouts, the local school board is asking voters to hike property taxes to build three new schools. It will cost $55 mil, a lot for our community.

But wait! It won't cost us much at all, the school board says; because the majority will be paid for by the state!

Ah, the generous state government is offering to kick in the majority--if our city raises its taxes to pay the rest.

There is an alternate plan for using existing facilities--which will be followed if the levy fails. But this option is "cheaper"--because of "free money."

Ann Althouse said...

"Considering you believe in cutting school budgets to the bone, how exactly do you plan to pay for these Kindles?"

I think a state replacing paper books with Kindles or minimal laptops would save money, especially since it could bargain for a super-low price.

It would also save money on health care long term, as the kiddies stopped lugging giant backpacks.

Ann Althouse said...

Think of all the books that are in the public domain and could be read for free. No more buying copies of "Red Badge of Courage" or whatever.

Teri said...

I can't believe these environuts are promoting Tupperware(TM). Usually they are all over metal and glass containers to avoid soiling themselves with demon plastic.

Also, they are discriminating against families that can't afford Tupperware (TM) - have you checked the prices of Tupperware(TM) lately? And if it gets lost?

Wonder how the environmental costs of washing out the plastic every night - gotta use a lot of soap because grease clings to plastic - balance out the measured-in-millimeters plastic bags?

BTW, they don't advocate wax paper bags because the vegans won't touch wax - that would be exploiting the bees and/or soiling oneself with a petroleum byproduct, depending on whether they were made with beeswax or paraffin.

Tim said...

Our local high school is giving iPads to all incoming freshmen. This was done to keep students up-to-date with assignments, homework, etc. It's expected course materials will also be distributed online.

It's unclear which textbooks will be replaced by their e-versions, but that is expected, soon, certainly by next year, if not partially in this.

My wife is a textbook editor. As I write this, she is sitting nearby, editing a high-school or beginning college-level Chinese-language textbook. The electronic version has occupied most of her efforts, as the paper edition of this book is not considered too important, not being expected to sell as well.

Editing e-textbooks is actually quite a bit harder than traditional books because of all the hyperlinked content and exercises.

Most of my wife's books in the past couple of years have had at least an e-book version. Now, it looks like e-books will become dominant. E-textbooks have several advantages over traditional books. The first is that they are significantly cheaper, per copy, over the expected life of the edition. The other is that content can be updated as necessary without the need for another expensive printed edition, thus extending the useful life of each edition.

Of course, this implies the kids will have e-readers. Kindles have extremely limited internet capabilities, so an iPad or similar device is the obvious choice. iPads can use Kindle and other e-book reader apps, eliminating the need for a dedicated e-book reader.

It's expected that, including the cost of the iPads, the local schools will save significant money over the next several years, certainly by the time my son's class graduates. This is not only in the cost of textbooks, but in more efficient use of teacher time and savings in administrative overhead.

The textbook business has gotten more and more squeezed lately, and the pressures to produce e-books (more development and editing; lower margins) are not going to help. The good news is, that for parents paying taxes and students with access to incredible amounts of information, the internet seems to be living up to at least some of its promise.

I hope.

ricpic said...

Until I was sent to the hell of a Junior High School I ate all my lunches at home. Which, the older I get the more I believe was the factor that forever separated me from my peers. To have had that paradise extended into my 11th or 12th year forever marked me as different from those who were fed into the institutional machinery at a much tenderer age. Yes, it was paradise to come home at noon and tell my mother about the exciting morning and then walk back to a bearably short afternoon session. Plastic bags? Ziplock bags? Lunch boxes? Spared all that. No. I went home for lunch everyday. Blessed I was, truly, to be behind the times.

Milwaukee said...

Do you think ebooks will cause math professors to give up using texts that are 25 or 30 years old?

Don't forget to do some research on why Amazon can't manufacture Kindles in the United States.

Mathematics material through college calculus is available on line. I don't remember "The Red Badge of Courage", but it doesn't sound like it was one of your favorites. Now, "To Kill a Mockingbird", that was excellent. Atticus Finch has got to be the coolest dude to ever live.

Will they shame students who use paper books? Probably. I just heard an English teacher saying that paper books have pages numbered, which makes referencing easier. I gather Kindle books do not. I'm sure somebody will find a way so we can talk about the 2nd paragraph on page 104.

My mom remembers, as a child, living in a logging camp in Northern California during one winter. They lived in a tent which had wooden walls about 4' tall. She vividly recalls looking down and watching her mom read "Gone With the Wind" by kerosene lantern lights. I still own the first book she ever owned. As wonderful as ebooks will be, there are some things they can not replace.

Milwaukee said...

Do you think ebooks will cause math professors to give up using texts that are 25 or 30 years old?

Don't forget to do some research on why Amazon can't manufacture Kindles in the United States.

Mathematics material through college calculus is available on line. I don't remember "The Red Badge of Courage", but it doesn't sound like it was one of your favorites. Now, "To Kill a Mockingbird", that was excellent. Atticus Finch has got to be the coolest dudes to ever live.

Will they shame students who use paper books? Probably. I just heard an English teacher saying that paper books have pages numbered, which makes referencing easier. I gather Kindle books do not. I'm sure somebody will find a way so we can talk about the 2nd paragraph on page 104.

My mom remembers, as a child, living in a logging camp in Northern California during one winter. They lived in a tent which had wooden walls about 4' tall. She vividly recalls looking down and watching her mom read "Gone With the Wind" by kerosene lantern lights. I still own the first book she ever owned. As wonderful as ebooks will be, there are some things they can not replace.

jamboree said...

I don't buy this "shaming" supposedly occurring in Oakland. Just someone trying to fill space in the style/food section. My niece and nephew are from a SUPER GREEN family in an eco-aware NoCal university town and they regularly get teased for being the veggie, anti-pesticide kids.

I'm just not buying that these kids get all that shamed. I suspect they enjoy shaming their mothers and the bit of control they get for doing it in the name of virtue. Moms regularly send kids to school with uncool things of all kinds to face the Romans and lions both - perk of motherhood.

damikesc said...

Apparently, separation of church and state is only for CERTAIN religions...

sorepaw said...

Now that I think of it I haven't seen a roll of wax paper in a long time.

Still on the shelf at my local supermarket, though not taking up a lot of space any more.

Baggies and their successors really have done a better job with sandwiches than wax paper did.

Wax paper is mainly used now to cover bowls and dishes in the microwave oven.

Saint Croix said...

How many races are there, C4?

It's such a simple question. Surely you can answer it.

How many sexes are there? Two.

How many races are there?

Think about breeding, dumb ass, before you try to answer.

Tari said...

1. So does the amount of gas, etc saved on reduced trash exceed the amount of energy used to wash those stinking little plastic containers in hot water every night? Or are we having the cloth diapers vs disposable diapers conversation all over again?

2. We used to use the "green" plastic food trays with coordinating lunchboxes, but after a few years I gave up. Cutting all the food up in the AM, and then washing everything at night takes at least 15 minutes of my time. With a fulltime job and 2 kids, 15 minutes is more important to me than the earth. I'm just a bad person that way.

Milwaukee said...

Saint Croix said...

How many races are there, C4?

It's such a simple question. Surely you can answer it.

How many sexes are there? Two.

How many races are there?

Think about breeding, dumb ass, before you try to answer.


As another attempt at humor, this is clearly a fail. Yes, there are medical conditions which are found in certain racial groups more than others. That is, the condition is more prevalent in one ethnic group than another. Maybe you should think about ethnic groups, as opposed to racial groups. The ethnic group being a subset of the racial group. The first that springs to my mind is sickle-cell anemia, being a carrier helps the individual resist malaria. Having two genes means have a potentially fatal blood disorder. This is most common amongst those of sub-Saharan Africa. There are conditions which are genetic and are most common in certain ethnic pools. Yupper, that's a fact. I think of at least one that I need to worry about, as my mother and grandmother both suffered from it. The name is some Scandinavian nightmare.

You can always tell a Norwegian. You just can't tell them much. (This last bit was a joke about Norwegians, that is, an attempt at humor.)

It was my pleasure to serve in Peace Corps Malaysia. They identified distinguishing characteristics between racial groups. I don't think it was a joke when they said "Malays are lazy, Indians are drunks and the Chinese are humorless." You see, each group had sized the others up and picked the worst characteristic to describe the other by. (St. Croix, notice that being humorless is as bad as being lazy or a drunk.)

Neither leftist-progressive-socialist, environmentalist nor feminist are noted for having a sense of humor.

Kirk Parker said...

Tim,

Any idea what they expect the attrition rate of the iPads will be, and who will bear that cost? It's one thing if your kid loses a $75 textbook, quite another if he loses or breaks his $500 electronic device.