"That responsibility is an awkward fit in some ways, but it reflects the reality that colleges are not just classrooms; they are a very particular kind of community in which all members have a duty of care toward one another. The Cornell case shows how hard it can be for universities to enforce Title IX well and also why they have to keep trying...."
Writes Emily Bazelon, in
"This Is One of the Saddest Facts About the Cornell Rape Case" (NYT).
The sad fact in question is that Jane Doe dropped out, and she did not complete her degree elsewhere. Her education — her path to a career — was disrupted.
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52 comments:
The sad fact is that most people in college are a waste of time and resources and shouldn't be in college.
Most of the classes in our university system right now make the students dumber than when they started.
People mistook the degree for the signal that the bearer had talent.
Her path to a career was disrupted by the fact that she was mediocre and had terrible judgement and impulse control and shouldn't have been wasting everyone's time and resources trying to dump knowledge into a cracked cup so she could go out and be a Human Resources girl boss.
The byline gives this one away.
So, NYTDR. Author would never think to consider that the college might have done its job quite successfully in this young woman's case.
Yeah, thats sad. I dunno what Title IX has to do with some bimbo getting drunk and having group sex at a Frat house. Did someone twist her arm? Was force involved? Nope.
Female sexuality seems to drive people crazy. They cant seem to decide whether young girls having sex is a good thing or a bad thing. And personal responsibiity? Sorry, thats a boy thing.
"The Cornell case shows how hard it can be for universities to enforce Title IX well and also why they have to keep trying...."
How can they enforce Title IX when they can't keep dudes out of the girl's room? And are they actually going to do something about frat/sorority culture or will it be all blather?
NYT: We are 43 hot takes into the Cornell situation, with 57 more to go before the midterms.
Yeah, lets get rid of college. Well, in the real world we aren't going to do that.
More news on the Dacia Sandero.
If ideology and indoctrination prevents a victim from taking full advantage of her education, then the institution has to address it.
RCOCEAN II said...
Yeah, lets get rid of college. Well, in the real world we aren't going to do that.
College is the system built by the aristocracy to keep their family and idiot scions in power.
But AI is going to democratize capital and autodidacts that can learn and keep pace with the rate of change would be wasting their time in a mediocre environment with professor chaperones that are a collection of all the people in subjects that couldn't actually apply their trade.
I would rather pull a kid straight out of high school than take a college grad at this point if I need work done.
Or better yet a home school kid.
We wont have to do anything to make University irrelevant. It is already there.
Disruption anywhere is a threat to ruption everywhere.
>"If sexual misconduct prevents a victim from taking full advantage of her education, then the institution has to address it."
The sad fact in question is that Jane Doe dropped out, and she did not complete her degree elsewhere. Her education — her path to a career — was disrupted.<
If so, in significant part due to her sexual misconduct.
And who decided that the gang bang she participated in was the proximate cause of her dropping out? This NYT writer? The one who advocates avoiding the (appropriate) legal system that requires evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, and leaving cases such as this to the notoriously anti-male-biased, farcical Title IX witch hunts we have seen over the last couple decades? That's funny. No, it's not, actually.
I suggest that a bigger part of the education that Jane Doe missed at the time was the part about learning to be a big girl, an adult.
Trans... social, gender, etc ideology. Abort.
The Cornell “victim” was shamed by her fellow Greeks not the school or the general public. Sororities have garnered less press than Frats but loom large in any honest telling of the Cornell Rape Theatre project ongoing.
𝘛𝘩𝘦 𝘴𝘢𝘥 𝘧𝘢𝘤𝘵 𝘪𝘯 𝘲𝘶𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘪𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘑𝘢𝘯𝘦 𝘋𝘰𝘦 𝘥𝘳𝘰𝘱𝘱𝘦𝘥 𝘰𝘶𝘵, 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘴𝘩𝘦 𝘥𝘪𝘥 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘱𝘭𝘦𝘵𝘦 𝘩𝘦𝘳 𝘥𝘦𝘨𝘳𝘦𝘦 𝘦𝘭𝘴𝘦𝘸𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦. 𝘏𝘦𝘳 𝘦𝘥𝘶𝘤𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯 — 𝘩𝘦𝘳 𝘱𝘢𝘵𝘩 𝘵𝘰 𝘢 𝘤𝘢𝘳𝘦𝘦𝘳 — 𝘸𝘢𝘴 𝘥𝘪𝘴𝘳𝘶𝘱𝘵𝘦𝘥.
Has anyone done a follow up on the victims of the Duke lacrosse hoax? Or are white males never victims?
And the Duke lacrosse hoax is just one of many with multiple victims unjustly accused. Anything that resembles a noose is particularly good at bringing out federal investigators.
And it really does appear- Jane Doe isn't a victim but a willing participant. And some say she raped an unconscious man.
"The sad fact in question is that Jane Doe dropped out, and she did not complete her degree elsewhere. Her education — her path to a career — was disrupted. "
Seems the reaction of her peer group was the problem, unfortunately. She was canceled and humiliated for an adventure many of them were envious of.
The sad fact is that Jane Doe should have thought about the consequences of HER actions before and not after getting drunk and drugged. Everybody is a victim of their own stupidity.
It sounds like this story is going nowhere, except to fire up the AWFL base of the MSM/Democrat party,
"Colleges are not just classrooms; they are a very particular kind of community."
I think of that 90s "I Like College" rapper who thought college was about going to wild parties, getting drunk all night, and sleeping through the day.
As I recall, this whole thing blew up because the frat disinvited Jane Doe to a Halloween party. She was pissed off; she had really been looking forward to that party. If those mean frat boys had just let her come to their party and have some more fun there, everyone would have been happy and all this fuss and bother would have been avoided.
There’s a valuable lesson to be learned here, about…uh, something-or-other….
Sexual conduct and social status.
"disrupted" by her needing the approbation of other young women who were looking down on her rather than owning what she'd participated in. Down that path lay madness, not maturity and education.
Reminds me of musical chairs. Everybody is playing the sex game and pretending to push the boundaries (except for the students who are in college with an actual purpose besides having fun). But when the music stopped and reality reappeared she was outside the line and exposed.
Oddly I agree with RCOCEAN II on this one.
She dropped out because of the other students, the gossip. The catty sorority girls and gossipy frat boys.
What you can't have on campus is the protection of women from SA and the open underage used of alcohol and illicit drugs. Nor the free expression of unconventional sex as promoted by the schools.
So, what was her major and what career was she pursuing?
Leora said...
"So, what was her major and what career was she pursuing?"
I don't know about her past aspirations, but Only Fans is her best career path now.
"Achilles said...
The sad fact is that most people in college are a waste of time and resources and shouldn't be in college."
Colleges market, parents push and students want the "college experience". Since 1965, that experience has been, not just a large cohort of near age students, but potential sex partners. Along with alcohol and a liberal attitude toward illegal drugs.
If colleges were about academics, they never would have tried to limit the number of Jews or Asians in their classes.
"Colleges really are big pet cemeteries, aren't they?" said Kyle. "You send people there, and they come back wrong."
--'Danielle's Passion' Tired Moderate
The college problem might solve itself. We are about to drop off the demographic cliff, with drastically fewer 18 year olds going forward. Combine that with fewer people seeing (expensive) college degrees being useful to them -- particularly males -- and colleges will be shrinking in size. Small non-elite private colleges are already going out of business and that won't stop any time soon.
Trump raised the cap on Chinese students in the USA to keep small colleges in the USA. I was against it. But that's what is keeping many of them alfloat. Go look at the number of foreign students going to college in the USA.
I disagree with Smilin' Jack. I don't think that being uninvited from the Halloween party was the turning point for Jane Doe. I read that someone showed her the Snapchat comments about "free *****" and "walk in and whip it out". That's when she came out of denial and realized how badly she had been used and abused by her so-called friends at the fraternity.
Why does no one mention alcohol playing a role? Most of these things happen when better judgment has been obliterated by drinking. Ban everything except weed. Cannabis results in staring at the TV and eating too many snacks. Young people clearly cannot handle drinking.
I mean, every time there's a school shooting we attempt to ban guns even more. Why is there no call to ban alcohol on campus? Plenty of time left in life after graduation for drinking.
@Althouse, HELL NO!!! The truly sad fact is that the available evidence 100% suggests that Jane Doe did it to herself. She’s scarcely the first young person to make a career-destroying mistake, though the publicity that naturally flowed from her insane lawsuit has not helped her cause in any way.
We Boomers are credited — and blamed — for getting rid of “in loco parentis” on campus. No dorm mothers. No curfew for women on campus. Is there a way to save women like Jane Doe from engaging in stupid sexual activities without going back to the 1960s and before? How do you propose to do that?”
NYT covers the Cornell case of voluntary gang bang extensively, but gives hardly any coverage to the force drug rape murder of college student Annabel Richter. Perhaps because of the color of the killer's skin.
https://x.com/unhealthytruth/status/2111554811598385484
https://x.com/NKramas/status/2111218239237947882
“I disagree with Smilin' Jack. I don't think that being uninvited from the Halloween party was the turning point for Jane Doe. I read that someone showed her the Snapchat comments about "free *****" and "walk in and whip it out". That's when she came out of denial and realized how badly she had been used and abused by her so-called friends at the fraternity.”
Walk into a fraternity house, drunk on her ass, find a couple guys, go off to their room, take off all her clothes, spread her legs wide, do a bit of drugs, and what should she have expected?
Colleges were never entirely about academics. They were about filling the country's middle- and higher-level positions and producing an elite. They did that -- just not a very competent or responsible elite.
“ We Boomers are credited — and blamed — for getting rid of “in loco parentis” on campus. No dorm mothers. No curfew for women on campus. Is there a way to save women like Jane Doe from engaging in stupid sexual activities without going back to the 1960s and before? How do you propose to do that?””
Not sure if it was actually Boomers, or the very tail of the generation. This was the generation that included Bush 43, Clinton, Gore, And now Trump. At my college, it happened in 1968/69, but driven by those born in the latter half of the 1940s. Those born 1950 and beyond just benefited from it.
When I entered college in 1968, we had no inter-visitation. Still had house mothers in the fraternities and sororities. Women just did not go upstairs. Period. Got a taste of inter-visitation part way through that fall. Twice a week until midnight. Sophomore year, part way through the fall, we went to noon to midnight. By the end of the semester, I had moved into the freshman women’s dorm - just get in before midnight, and take afternoon classes. GF moved into the fraternity house that spring, after we went to 24 hr inter-visitation. Junior year, they started alternating male and female rooms in some of the dorms. Worst part of that, from my daughter’s point of view was when guys got blotto drunk and couldn’t make it to their own bathrooms.
Not exactly the same time exactly everywhere, but we saw it at exactly the same time at the big universities in the state.
Bruce Hayden - Yes, Jane Doe made some terrible decisions that night. You ask, "What should she have expected?". Here's what she should NOT have expected - that her "friends" would advertise her to everyone else in the fraternity.
“I disagree with Smilin' Jack. I don't think that being uninvited from the Halloween party was the turning point for Jane Doe. I read that someone showed her the Snapchat comments….”
So she found out she was raped from Snapshot comments. Sounds airtight to me; I can’t believe the D.A. wouldn’t bring the case.
"RJ said...
The college problem might solve itself. We are about to drop off the demographic cliff"
Not "about" already in it for over for 18 years. The TFR started its most recent decline in 2007. The colleges have been reporting it since last year.
Couple that with the fact that corporate America is hiring few if any men, especially white men of conventional sexuality. College degrees were valuable for getting past the corporate HR lady. But if she's cutting the list based on sex or race, then the degree doesn't matter.
"Women make up nearly 60% of total undergraduate enrollment, while men account for only 42% of students aged 18–24 at four-year colleges.
The gap exists across all major racial and ethnic groups
"STEM fields remain male-dominated; in 2022, men earned 77% of computer science degrees and 76% of engineering degrees, whereas women dominate health and education majors."
"Men have significantly decreased enrollment and graduation rates in HEAL fields (Health, Education, Administration, and Literacy), as well as in social sciences and humanities."
"Contrary to the trend in non-STEM fields, men have not broadly stopped going to college for STEM majors; they remain the majority in most core STEM disciplines. However, there is a specific and significant exception: Biological and Biomedical Sciences."
THE saddest fact is that it illustrates the trivialization of rape by feminists and the media. I worked for years as a sex crimes prosecutor to get police, E.R. Docs and juries to believe rape victims and take the crime seriously. Now we are supposed to equate randy frat boys with violent sexual predators? How convenient for stupid regretful young women who drink too much and can’t keep their knees together that universities and feminist HR departments sympathize and destroy the young men. Juries would not.
"Ban everything except weed. Cannabis results in staring at the TV and eating too many snacks."
Weed makes me horny. Alcohol gives me the courage or stupidity to do something about it.
We should force her to stay where she ruined her reputation.
Anyone who spends their weekends doing so much ketamine that they don't notice that they turned into "the little engine that could" probably was not prioritizing their own education in the first place.
Well in Cornell frat land Jane Doe became the little engine that could. In the Hell's Angels world that's known as "pulling a train". But crassness aside, people leave college for all kinds of reasons. And who knows whether her hurt feelings at being disinvited were the real cause of her dropping out or not? Certainly not me--nor the writer in the NYT.
“Women make up nearly 60% of total undergraduate enrollment, while men account for only 42% of students aged 18–24 at four-year colleges.”
Sounds like a great time to be a straight guy who can do math. But also heed the advice once given to girls at Cal Tech: the odds are good, but the goods are odd.
"The sad fact in question is that Jane Doe dropped out, and she did not complete her degree elsewhere. Her education — her path to a career — was disrupted.".
Who knows how the investigation will end (although the chief interrogator apparently is already working on the final draft).
But, from the limited information I've gleaned there is a fair chance the "victim" is lying. She could be the disruptor in this scene. I did plenty of stupid things when I was 1) young and 2) drank. Nothing of this magnitude, but at least I admit I was the culprit.
Smilin' Jack said...
“I disagree with Smilin' Jack. I don't think that being uninvited from the Halloween party was the turning point for Jane Doe. I read that someone showed her the Snapchat comments….”
So she found out she was raped from Snapshot comments. Sounds airtight to me; I can’t believe the D.A. wouldn’t bring the case.
She found out everyone was calling her a whore and at that point decided she was raped.
“I disagree with Smilin' Jack. I don't think that being uninvited from the Halloween party was the turning point for Jane Doe. I read that someone showed her the Snapchat comments….”
“So she found out she was raped from Snapshot comments. Sounds airtight to me; I can’t believe the D.A. wouldn’t bring the case.”
How do you prove lack of consent? She clearly consented to six with the first couple guys. She was drunk, but so were they. Feminists wanted the same standards for males and females. That’s what they got. Same standard for both. As far as I can tell, she never evidenced lack of consent. And without proof of that, the DA is going to have a hard time convicting. Well, maybe the black guy, for hitting her, but the optics there would have been horrendous.
"The sad fact in question is that Jane Doe dropped out, and she did not complete her degree elsewhere. Her education — her path to a career — was disrupted.".
I’d say her path to the oldest one is still wide open.
“So she found out she was raped from Snapshot comments. Sounds airtight to me; I can’t believe the D.A. wouldn’t bring the case.”
“She found out everyone was calling her a whore and at that point decided she was raped.”
Not going to look good to a jury, when the big question is consent. She consented, until she found out later that everyone was calling her a slut, and then retracted her consent? Sounds to me a lot like regret.
No one in their right mind would ever hire Ms. Doe.
Why was her invite to the big party rescinded? That decision was very likely made by the officers of the fraternity. They didn’t want their fraternity being known as the train station on campus. I can see other fraternity guys on campus motioning a train whistle, going “whoo whoo” when seeing the guys in this house. As if these guys can’t get their own girls, but have to share. And, yes, there was a fraternity house when I was in one, where the women were cautious about entering there alone. On the flip side, we were on the rotation of fraternities that women could call late nights for an escort. We wanted the women to think that we were gentlemen, and feel honored that we wanted to date them.
Looking back, my fraternity house worked to civilized young men. I think a lot of them did and do. We tended to get blotto drunk freshman year. Less so, sophomore year. True alkies were often blackballed during Rush. Juniors were used as enforcers, and in training for running the house. Enforcement included sending guys to their rooms if they got too drunk or disrespectful.to women. Also, have to deal with the university, sat on the IFC, dealt with alums, others in town, paid the mortgage, the cook, etc. And taught the underclassmen responsibility and to grow up.
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