Quoted in "Kim Novak: 'Sydney Sweeney looks sexy all the time. She could never play me'/The 93-year-old star of Vertigo talks about Alfred Hitchcock, the trouble with being pretty and why a biopic about her love affair with Sammy Davis Jr won’t happen" (London Times).
Answer, from Grok:
Yes, your observation is largely accurate. In older Hollywood photography and publicity shots (Golden Age era through much of the 20th century), actresses typically posed with their lips closed or gently pressed together when not actively smiling, laughing, or in a dynamic expression. Classic portraits emphasized polished, composed glamour—think Audrey Hepburn, Grace Kelly, or Ingrid Bergman in studio stills—with a serene, closed-mouth elegance that conveyed poise and refinement.
Modern red carpet, magazine, and social media poses frequently feature a slightly parted or slack-jawed "fish gape" (mouth relaxed and open just enough to show a hint of teeth or inner lip, often with a neutral or seductive expression). This has become a normalized go-to for many contemporary actresses and models.
This isn't entirely new—Marilyn Monroe famously posed with her mouth often open or parted for a breathy, sensual effect—but it was more selective and tied to specific "sexy" or vulnerable personas rather than a default.Maybe this is what Novak means when she expresses the feeling that Sweeney doesn't represent her properly because she reads as too sexy. Note that the specific problem with using Sweeney for a biopic is that people will interpret Novak's relationship with Sammy Davis Jr as purely a matter of his sexual interest in her. Novak's version of her own life is that she and Sammy had "so much in common."
More on open-mouth photography:
Photographers and pose coaches often recommend it to avoid a "tight" look. Some describe it as a way to create intrigue or a "come-hither" stare.... Critics and observers (including on social media and in dental/airway health discussions) note that it can sometimes look vacant, overly standardized ("Instagram face"), or even signal habitual mouth-breathing rather than intentional posing.... The change [to open-mouth neutral] reflects broader shifts in beauty ideals, photography styles (from studio-lit glamour to candid/digital immediacy), and what reads as attractive or relatable on camera....
"Relatable" ≈ easily available. The closed-mouthed actresses had a noble, sublime look. They were called goddesses.
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78 comments:
There are plenty of pics with her smiling goof grief lady
https://share.google/DiqC4mIMPjF24UEbW
Grok apparently misses that Old Hollywood dominated the entertainment industry. Films had huge budgets, huge mindshare, and stars required careful stage management. Modern actors struggle to get attention at all, and their films are tiny little candles in the cultural winds. They fight the film back catalog, and imitate the old timers.
Women being women and sexy and seductive is as old as history. Women presenting as perfect statues and godesses is as old as history. This is a fluid status -- read the crowd, read the moment.
I think they should make the movie and Tarantino should direct. He's a Hollywood historian and I'd love to see what he does with these characters.
Took me 10 seconds to disprove her contentionz
The internet was able to find some photos of Suzanne Pleshette open-mouthed showing a hint of teeth so I'm calling that a win.
Makes me think of Virginia Postrel's book, "The Power of Glamour: Longing and the Art of Visual Persuasion".
"This has become a normalized go-to for many contemporary actresses and models."
"Go-to" is a real go-to term for Grok.
"There are plenty of pics with her smiling goof grief lady"
What a disrespectful comment to begin the thread! You have an egregious typo — "goof" — and you missed the part of my post where I excluded smiling: "I believe that in the past, the lips would be kept together (unless the actress was smiling/laughing/talking)." And you end with an expression of exasperation? Terrible.
Tippi Hedren in Birds is my all time favorite sexy actress. She has IT.
When I looked, based on the first comment, I saw what Althouse described. There are pictures where Novak had a smile showing teeth. I also noticed they seemed to be publicity photos when she was older (late 30s or more).
I would think it difficult for Sweeney to portray Novak in a romantic relationship with Sammy Davis Jr. considering Novak is still alive to question the authenticity (or rather contest the defamation) of the portrayal. I know such portrayals have been done in the past, but there already seems to be questions. As for Sweeney being sexy vs Novak, I think Sweeney is about the best you are going to get to match Novak in those early photos.
I’m skeptical about Tippi’s recollection.
Vertigo eventually dethroned Citizen Kane in the Greatest Movie poll from Sight and Sound. It is endlessly interesting. The Hitchcock suspense gimmicks are often the weakest of the elements in his movies as they age. The psychologies at work are still terrifically strong, IMO. Kim did great work although the tension in her body, eyes, and movements can be discomfitting.
She was interviewed at length once (probably more than once) by the wonderful Robert Osborne of Turner Classic Movies. It was a long show and, IIRC, dedicated to Kim. Her intense vulnerability came out during all that attention. They still show it at times but I believe they have edited out the more extrerme manifestations of her insecurities and personality. It was painful to watch but her honesty sure made you love her.
Now even Vertigo has fallen as the #1 movie to something from the '70s in France, a movie no one ever saw about a woman, made by a woman. But Vertigo, Shadow of a Doubt, The Man Who Knew Too Much, Notorious, North by Northwest.... all these Hitchcocks would be in my Top 10 of all time list. Long live Kim Novak.
Google AI lists some mundane reasons for old timey closed mouth portraits:
Why the "Closed Mouth" Dominated Early On
Exposure Times: In the very early days of photography, subjects had to remain still for seconds or even minutes. A neutral, closed-mouth expression was far easier to hold without blurring the image than a wide smile.
Dental Care: Before modern dentistry became professionalized and widespread, many people (including early stars) had imperfect teeth they preferred to hide.
Cultural Standards: For a long time, a wide, open-mouthed grin was culturally viewed as "low-class" or "silly," while a closed mouth signaled moral certainty and dignity.
I don't think it's true that Sydney Sweeney "looks sexy all the time." If you see photos of her where she's not glammed-up and wearing makeup, she looks like a kind-of-pretty girl you went to high school with.
On the other hand, Kim Novak had a sort of icy elegance that only turned sexy in movies when she fell in love with someone like Jimmy Stewart -- which made her perfect for Hitchcock films.
With her plastic surgery, it looks like Heath Ledger as the joker is a better fit to play Kim Novak. Goddess indeed.
Also: "[Tippi] Hedren has said [Hitchcock] made a pass at her and told her he 'expected me to make myself sexually available to him,' - So Hitchcock was the Harvey Weistein of his day and just didn't end up in jail? Poor Harvey. He got caught up in the selective outrage and prosecution of the "me too" movement.
Is an infinite number of numbers divisible by two less infinite than an infinite number of numbers starting with one? I just don't think it's humanly possible to accurately measure the different levels of sexual magnetism of Kim Novak versus Sydney Sweeney.
I'm not a fan of the slack-jawed look, I think it is a little debasing to women, makes them look less intelligent, unrevealing of character. Tippi Hedren in The Birds, yes she had 'IT', but I think a lot of that was very much due to the foil provided by Rod Taylor, who was constantly needling her.
"goof grief" is what I said at the picnic down by the pond when my wife stepped in something nasty, looked at the bottom of her shoe and said, "Oh gross! What is that?" right after I'd taken a big bite of my peanut butter sandwich.
One of the great tragedies to befall humanity during the fifties and early sixties was that Kim Novak's great years took place under Hays Office supervision. It was a great loss......Not so with Sydney Sweeney. Lots of skin in her earlier work......Apparently the pendulum is starting to swing back to the Hays Office. The feeling is that if an actress takes it off, it's because some Harvey Weinstein type is exploiting her. I don't know if that's true. I think if you look like Sydney Sweeney or Kim Novak, a certain amount of nudity is empowering. It's like Arnold flexing his biceps.
Sydney Sweeny is today’s #1 American Sex symbol, because she knows the role. Make men drool. And make them feel like you actually like men. So many liberal modern actresses who are beautiful, spew their political bullshit, and it makes you want to puke. Men fall for the character in the movie. It’s like Rita Hayworth’s famous quote, “Every man I knew went to bed with Gilda...and woke up with me.”
Funny thing about Sweeny’s modern-day stardom is, nobody watches her movies, but she is still the #1 female name in Hollywood.
“Why the "Closed Mouth" Dominated Early On“
Looks like AI just lies all the time: I googled “female movie stars from the 1920s smiling with their mouths open”
plenty of photos.
Kim Novak ran a little hot for a Hitchcock blonde. Eva Marie Saint and Grace Kelly were the beau ideal. Sydney Sweeney is not a classic beauty, but that only enhances her sex appeal. You don't get distracted by her pretty face.
Note that an "open mouthed" or "open lips" photo is very different from the loose "slack jawed" look that follows from sleep, surprise, confusion, or a dental painkiller injection.
True slack jaws apply to thrillers, horror, and comedy...
I was speaking of miss novak
@Eva Marie -- you've got to determine the baseline percentages to say that the AI is "lying." The phrase "dominated" might range from 65% to 99% closed mouth.
Still, my own grandparent's family portraits were closed mouth too. It was the standard for a long time.
So, he propositioned her, she declined, and he did nothing. There’s no story here.
"Looks like AI just lies all the time: I googled “female movie stars from the 1920s smiling with their mouths open”
plenty of photos."
Well, again, you're missing the specification in the prompt! Smiling is excluded. The observation is about photos where the actress is NOT smiling.
I'm concerned about the SLACK-JAWED look. When you are smiling, you're not slack jawed. The question is what is the neutral face?
If you are neutral with your mouth hanging open, you might look dull and unintelligent. The idea that this is how to look sexually desirable is something to think about. The preferred look of feminine beauty used to express something closer to unattainability. Now, it's vulnerability, as if the woman has been drugged and will not be able to resist. It's a fantasy world for low-energy men.
"So, he propositioned her, she declined, and he did nothing. There’s no story here."
I take it you are going back to the Tippi Hedren story. It is a story if the director, shaping the workplace, establishes expectations that sexual availability is part of the deal. Even if he never forces himself on her, if he did say that to her, it would be sexual harassment. Imagine yourself doing the equivalent with your employees, if you were the boss in the workplace. You don't seem to understand the concept of a workplace. You portray it as equivalent to a bar.
Sweeney looks her best in her videos about cars and mechanic-ing.
Not enough Glamour Photos of Forties starlets eating bananas.
Google will have my back on this.
I am Laslo.
I’ve been propositioned in the workplace by a female boss. And I was married. I said no and shook it off. Big deal. And this was on the set of a corporate video shoot.
Tippi didn't have a good relationship with Hitchcock. She was discovered by him and he made her into a star. And as usual in these situations, underpaid her. So, it quickly became a pygmalion situation where the woman gets tired of being ordered about and "controlled" and moves on.
Hitchcock was a devout catholic, happily married, and had zero history of making passes at his leading ladies. This was so weird by Hollywood, that lots rumors started. Some entertainment author wrote a book about how Hitchcock was full of self-loathing and therefore pinned with unrequited love for all the beautiful women he counldn't make a pass at. His eating was a distraction from his failed love life. LOL. Dimestore Freud.
Astounding how young actresses were back then. Novak was only 24 when she did Vertigo. As was Grace Kelly when did she did Rear Window. Linda Darnell was only 17 in the Mark of Zorro.
"...It is a story if the director, shaping the workplace, establishes expectations that sexual availability is part of the deal. Even if he never forces himself on her, if he did say that to her, it would be sexual harassment. ..."
It would be sexual harassment in the modern American societal construct. Not defending the offense at all, and it's something I have never done / would never do, but: This is Hitchcock, directing a film. What is the full context, please - to make certain that this was not a director's tactic to manipulate the actress into filling his ideal of the role? Again: NOT defending the offense. I see it as a rush to judge past, unclear events in the sterile certainty of present-day lights.
> You portray it as equivalent to a bar
Yeah, this IS Hollywood we're talking about...
I never understood the love for Vertigo. The plot line was so obvious.
My Hitchcock favorites are Rear Window, Rope & Psycho.
“It is a story if the director, shaping the workplace, establishes expectations that sexual availability is part of the deal.”
Takes two to tango. If you don’t like the deal, don’t take it.
I didn't catch Rope & Psycho, but it sounds like an interesting concept, for a Hitchcock film....:)
I'm concerned about the SLACK-JAWED look. When you are smiling, you're not slack jawed. The question is what is the neutral face?
Maybe it's just me, but Sweeney's look in that photo suggests she's in evaluation mode. I'd take that look as an indication that I might be able to make the sale, but that I hadn't yet. Novak's face communicates "no sale." I must be looking at the eyes instead of the jawline, but in my experience that's where you're supposed to look.
I don’t understand Althouse’s addiction to the vicious, stupid ideology of feminism. Well, she’s a Western white woman, stuffed to the gills with entitlement. I’ve been involved with three Asian women in my life, and none of them had any interest in feminism. All working women. My late wife, a Filipina, was openly and vocally hostile to this crazy ideology. It’s a tremendous relief not to face that reflexive bitching from rich Western white women. Feminism is such an ugly, hateful, sex killing ideology. I really like Althouse and I’ve followed her since the inception of her blog. I have no idea why this corrupt, vicious ideology appeals to her.
@Mr. D: Novak's face communicates "no sale."
Her narow, sunken cheeks and tight mouth...mid-century German law-and-order look. Surely not an accident shortly after WW2.
"Don't even think about it!"
The place to look isn't the movies, it's fashion photography. Possibly the models were encouraged to have vacant looks so that they didn't distract more than necessary from the clothes. Also, those vacant, open-mouthed stares reinforce the idea of fashion as a threat, something that unsettles spectators. Hollywood may have picked up that look from the still photographers it shared with the fashion world.
AI comments on slack-jawed actresses and performances:
Performance Criticism: Some critics have described Kristen Stewart's acting style—notably in Twilight and Snow White and the Huntsman—as featuring a "slack jaw" or "half-open mouth".
"Slumming" Trope: Film articles have highlighted a "slack-jawed stare" as a trope used by actresses like Charlize Theron in Monster or Jennifer Aniston in The Good Girl to signify a "working-class" or "frumped up" character.
Kim Novak: "Sydney Sweeney looks sexy all the time."
Good grief, she portrayed a sweaty boxer in a film just last year.
If Google AI is not lying then Sydney Sweeney is shorter (5’ 3.5” versus 5’ 6”) and bustier (36DD versus 36C) but narrower in the hips (36” versus 37”).
I agree with Mr. D — Sweeney appears to be sizing up the viewer, and making a mildly negative appraisal.
I never understood the love for Vertigo. The plot line was so obvious. My Hitchcock favorites are Rear Window, Rope & Psycho.
I think the plot line to "Rope & Psycho" was much more obvious!
The fact tha dentistry is vastly better today than 50-60 years ago may also account, at least partially, for the closed-lips look versus the lips apart look.
They were called goddesses.
They were also called sex kittens.
CJinPA,
The jury is still out whether it was a sweaty sexy boxer or a sexy sweaty boxer.
That open-mouthed look was perfected by Joey Heatherton.
The open mouth pose is also good if there's any chance to break into some spontaneous ventriloquism.
That is snide and petty by Novak. What not take the high road and say "I'm flattered." She should be.
I recently watched the Neil Diamond biopic movie Song Sung Blue. Hugh Jackman and Kate Hudson played the two main characters who play the tribute band duo. The real people were regular Milwaukee types and I looked them up after seeing the movie. Hollywood took some liberties in having Jackman and Hudson play those two. They certainly should have been flattered.
"That open-mouthed look was perfected by Joey Heatherton."
In 1975, Joey Heatherton had a short-lived network variety show with her father, actor Ray Heatherton, called "Joey & Dad." After a couple of episodes, the network insisted that she wear less skimpy outfits. The show was canceled after four weeks, but I'm guessing that was enough for her to send some younger viewers into puberty.
Ray Heatherton did a kid's TV show in NY called The Merry Mailman. It seemed odd that his daughter would be such a sex kitten.
Right here is a picture of Sydney making a judgement on your opinion about her looks.
Sydney has something that Kim didn't.
Two somethings actually.
My favorite Kim Novak film is The Man With the Golden Arm. Terrific score by Elmer Bernstein. It's also my favorite Frank Sinatra film.
The sexy Kim Novak movie is Pushover. Wow. Vertigo is the opposite of sexy.
Vertigo is the Hitchcock movie for people who don’t love Hitchcock. It’s very atypical for his art. That’s why so many Hitchcock fans were disappointed and it underperformed at the box office.
I don’t know what happened between Hitch and Tippi but his art completely fell apart after Marnie. He wrecked her career and his own.
"There are plenty of pics with her smiling goof grief lady"
Not to be argumentative , but there's a case to made for that not being a typo. Just sayin'...
Anyways, thanks for the thread. Two of my favorite subjects: Truth & Beauty.
Joey Heatherton had a short-lived network variety show...
I loved Catherine O'Hara's "Lola Heatherton" on SCTV. Always a treat.
Jimmy Stewart cured his Vertigo by replacing it with Obsession.
Probably in the minority view here, but I just don't get what's all that about Sydney Sweeney. I mean, she's OK ... but ...
Probably in the minority view here, but I just don't get what's all that about Sydney Sweeney. I mean, she's OK ... but ...
Don't overthink it. The fundamental question is: Would you do her?
‘Sydney Sweeney looks sexy all the time. She could never play me’
Complement, insult, or neither?
A rather cryptic statement.
Don't overthink it. The fundamental question is: Would you do [Sydney Sweeney]?
Not so long as my wife of 51 years can still put .38 special rounds into the X-ring.
"Tippi Hedren in Birds is my all time favorite sexy actress. She has IT."
We were looking for Suzanne Pleshette, but thanks for playing.
Better than grace kelly
Not so long as my wife of 51 years can still put .38 special rounds into the X-ring.
As it should be. I should have stopped before the explicit, "do her". Sorry.
I believe it's programmed into all us by Mother Nature, herself. We are rarely aware of either the question or the answer but they both happen.
The fundamental question is: Would you do her?
Honestly, no. Even if I weren't married. Not my type.
Now, give me Catherine Bach, Jaclyn Smith, Dawn Wells in their primes ....
Yes they were in their day
Yes they were in their day
Jaclyn Smith for the win!
“Dime store Freud” is a perfect description of Hitchcock. Idiotic psychoanalyzing was his brand.
TBF, Freud was totally dime store himself
Freud was literally no better than Hitchcock. Both were story tellers and entertainers. Freud's base career was to tell nervous and lonely upper middle class "Karens" what they wanted to hear.
Hitchcock's weird themes can be taken as a conscious satire of psychoanalysis rather than serious acceptance. Analysis was a fresh -- if always unscientific -- topic back then.
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