"You know, if you're if you're a 70-year-old billionaire, you can't walk into a bar... and meet an 18-year-old.... I'm presuming these things are facilitated at private parties..."

"... and it needs to, you know, for a lot of these guys, it has to be discreet. You know, they've got wives, they've got reputations, and you know, there's an aspect of this that plays out at every institution. I worked at a New York law firm and... there's ways that you can make partner — at least this was kind of the vibe that I felt. Some people make partner because they're really good technically.... There are some people who move up because of nepotism.... There are some people... who brought in one client... a really big rainmaker. And there are some people who move up because they open doors to partners while they're associates. They introduce them to someone. They host events. They've got tickets to exclusive things. And the partners just like being around that person because they get access to that person in a currency that they can't get on their own. And that includes hosting cool exotic parties, having attractive women."

I've never been convinced that the central role of the Epstein young girl... is that it was for blackmail. And part of this is because the moment Jeffrey Epstein formally, officially threatens somebody with blackmail and that person tells his wife and that wife tells her friends and that gets out to somebody else that knows Jeffrey Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein's access goes away overnight. That's the sort of thing that even a rumor of that spreading and nobody else is going to want to do business with them.... I think because the moment you do that, nobody comes to your parties anymore. Nobody. You lose all the access. You lose all the deal flow. You lose all the goodwill that you've generated...."

Said Mike Benz.

Joe Rogan challenges him: "But that's a very specific illicit desire to want underage people. How do you even find out that someone's into that? "

Benz: "Well, I don't think that the majority or anything close to it of the women were technically—I mean I think it was largely very young, you know, barely legal so to speak, but—and I know that there were cases of underage but I think most of it was just very very young but not like 13-year-old type thing. And then yeah, remember because this is an international enterprise and many of the clients are like, you know, in countries that don't necessarily have the same norms about that that we do. You can very easily see someone getting involved in that just because girls juice deals. And so I don't think that Epstein—I've not seen evidence and in my view you don't need any of that to understand the core part of the Epstein story that is relevant to your life today in terms of your own government and the workings of power and corporate finance and the like. But I do think that girls juice deals and the fact that he had the coolest parties on a private island with the hottest girls...."

Joe: "Also brought in a lot of intellectuals, stimulating conversations, scientists, all these very interesting people. So that was part of the thing, right? That was the draw."

Benz: "Try hosting a cool party as a guy without—with a bad ratio, so to speak

Joe: "A sausage party."

Benz: "And when you develop a reputation for having attractive women at the parties you host, you become an important person to know in the network because basically every male has that desire for attractive women—not saying underage, obviously, but that is, like, a universal biological desire for men to want to be around attractive women."

Joe: "And what did they do for gay guys? I have no idea. Is that a part of the file or the lore?"

Benz: "I've not seen evidence of it, or if I have, I can't recall it offhand."

Joe: "But the whole point is he's throwing these very attractive, cool parties to get all these people together."

Benz: "But that's what juices deals, right? If you take this scenario—Epstein's running a fund—a donor, a colleague, someone that he'd like to do a favor for, or an intelligence service says, 'Hey, we're trying to get a pipeline built in the Middle East. We need a facilitator to help arrange private outside funding for it so this thing can be constructed and it doesn't look like it's coming from the US government or just—but... the US government will provide some sort of loan guarantee or something on it but we can't raise enough money to do this. It needs to come from the outside but it would really help American national security and there's probably something in it for you if you can get this done.'... And Jeffrey Epstein, you know, for the past three years of their lives has been the best weekend they’ve ever had, has made them feel alive again in their mid-50s or 60s, has opened all sorts of other deals for them, and this deal might work out. So, if I’m afraid that if I say no to Jeffrey Epstein on this deal, I’m not going to get an invite to the next party. I’m not gonna be able to get laid again with, you know, a girl that I find attractive or that, you know, yada yada—and Epstein hooks those up. I will get in on this deal just because I want to be in the good graces of Jeffrey Epstein, not because the deal as a standalone thing is so compelling. It’s because it’s juiced by the girls, the parties, the lifestyle that Epstein allows you to have access to."

Joe: "But in the public eye, the narrative is underage girls. And this is the thing that makes it so disgusting. When people talk about it, everyone says, 'Fuck kids on the island.' This is the big conspiracy about it. And this is the reason why people are so outraged about it."

Benz: "My concern with the runaway train on that is that it’s a massive manhunt for something that—it may be true — to me, it’s a needle in a haystack.... If there were any sort of receipts whatsoever on that after all these years, if there was something really good to chew on on that thread, I’m very open-minded about it. But my concern is the fixation on this. If you think about the sort of pie chart of what the Epstein cinematic universe can tell you about the world, even if it’s true, it’s a very, very, very small fraction of that. And this gets back to—in 1999, Jeffrey Epstein FOIA’d the Central Intelligence Agency for all records about himself, and then he did it again in 2011. Now, Jeffrey Epstein was not a public figure at all in 1999. He didn’t come into public awareness, public attention until 2001, 2002 when he started flying—when he flew Bill Clinton around post-presidency, Bill Clinton around on his Africa tour around the time of the start of the Clinton Foundation. And everyone was wondering, whoa, who’s this eccentric billionaire who is personally flying around on his private jet the president of the United States for the past eight years? And that’s when the Jeffrey Epstein celebrity story started...."