Achilles is a big boy and can answer for himself, but he's not the only one who insists on the democracy/republic distinction, so I will chime in:
Direct democracy devolves into mob rule, or rule by whoever can spin the best tales for the most people. And then becomes violence, either by the mob or by the tale-spinner.
You protect against that by being a republic: building anti-majoritarian protections into your constitution (big or small C).
We used to do it here by state selection of senators, property qualifications for the franchise, keeping incompatible cultures out, an electoral college, a federal system where the federal government can't reach down into the states whenever it wants under imaginary commerce justification, separation of powers where not everything is justiciable, etc.
The Brits used to do it within a constitutional monarchy with features like a hereditary upper house with real powers, a monarch who actually had the option not to assent to bills, a franchise with property qualifications, a federal-ish system of union between the constituent nations, a bench with limited powers, and of course good old Northern European internalization of the rules. For instance, a PM who knew he'd lost the confidence of his party or the people as a whole used to feel duty-bound to call a new election.
Of course both we and the Brits have been dismantling these systems over the past 80 years or so. Which makes our systems more democratic in terms of nationwide majorities determining policy, but less free in that those majoritarian tantrums usually end up reducing everyone's rights. CC, JSM
More people are ecstatic about this than not. It’s a great win, especially for Venezuelans. The celebrations are awesome to see. I’m very happy for their gain of freedom, while tentative about the next steps.
We are living through likely one of the most consequential presidential administrations in US history. Even a bit weary, Trump runs rings around everyone. Rubio and Hegseth are true stars.
"I don't think Chavez stole the first election. He just made elections pointless after winning the first one." You may be right about the first one. But the way he "made elections pointless" was by having software developed to steal the second one.
He also just killed and jailed his political opponents. It just highlights that most people in the world are not smart enough to vote.
In any case, it does sound as if you feel that democracy has been tried and found wanting. But what do you propose to replace it with? Monarchy, explicit or tacit? Patents of nobility? Even Augustus was careful to preserve the forms of the Republic.
The only people in the world who have proven they can actually elect decent representatives are protestant male christians. The Secular Marxists have done an end around in the US by importing third worlders and passing the 19th amendment.
I would argue that the US faces essentially the same problem that ended the Roman Republic. The form of government that sufficed to govern a small, fairly weak state was no match for the pressures unleashed by its growing power. Bread and circuses kept the urban mob quiet, but ambitious senators were always tempted to seek foreign allies, whose interests were contrary to those of the Roman citizens.
I would agree with that. Our Constitution was sufficient for 13 colonies. Our Federal government is an obvious monstrosity and needs to be done away with.
My best guess would be an election at the National level of a singular Unitary Executive whose only powers are:
1. The military 2. The ability to tax the governments of each State to maintain the military. 3. A limited Federal Court System. 4. The responsibility to manage the contract between each state and its voters.
’Oh good, Beasts of England is here. You owe me an apology. Your friend is a liar and full of shit.’
I have no idea why I’d owe you an apology or on what basis you’d claim my buddy is a liar and full of shit. I do wish you a pleasant evening and emotional calm.
"This saved thousands of lives, many of them Americans, many Venezuelan, and removed a cancer in our hemisphere, while protecting our strategic interests ..." I hope you're right, but so far all that's happened is we rescued the Maduros from their various shady associates, and blew up some Venezuelan bases. It isn't clear to me what that accomplished. Shock and awe?
"Of course both we and the Brits have been dismantling these systems over the past 80 years or so ..." Well. Those systems have been getting dismantled. You might want to ask yourself whose interests that served. A nation requires agents to serve its interests. A monarch recruits those agents from the nobility, who serve their own interests thereby. An imperfect calculation, but workable. But a democracy enfranchises a much larger fraction of the populace. It is much harder to keep all of them on the side of the nation they inhabit. As we have been noticing, of late.
"The only people in the world who have proven they can actually elect decent representatives are protestant male christians." Must have been some Muslims in the woodpile back in 1856 or so.
Jupiter: "A nation requires agents to serve its interests. A monarch recruits those agents from the nobility, who serve their own interests thereby. An imperfect calculation, but workable. But a democracy enfranchises a much larger fraction of the populace. It is much harder to keep all of them on the side of the nation they inhabit. "
Yes, exactly. Something as simple as a House of Lords drawn from families that have been in your country since 1066 or earlier, or a Senate of good ol'boys chosen by good ol'boys in their respective State governments, ensures there's some part of your representative government that remembers the way things have always been and puts some kind of brake on efforts to change them. Which seems in the short term to frustrate the people's will, but in the long term preserves the people's rights. CC, JSM
“That is what Greenland is for.” Especially once it global-warms into a very large Ireland!
Not going to happen for a very long time (the de-icing of Greenland). Its mile-deep, subcontinental-sized ice sheet is presently melting (unlike Antarctica's even larger ice sheet)—but at a rate which will see Greenland entirely permanent-ice-free in something like 10,000 years.
Meanwhile, however, Greenland already hosts ice-free regions adding up to larger than the states of California (land area), Montana, or Germany—which, in turn, are far larger than Ireland.
’So you still think the 82nd Airborne is hiding somewhere in the jungles of Venezuela? You really are a dumbshit.’
Hahaha. I never made such a claim because I don’t know. I merely posted something sent to me, and it seemed so weird at the time I didn’t even respond. Get your emotions under control, silly boy.
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214 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 214 of 214Achilles is a big boy and can answer for himself, but he's not the only one who insists on the democracy/republic distinction, so I will chime in:
Direct democracy devolves into mob rule, or rule by whoever can spin the best tales for the most people. And then becomes violence, either by the mob or by the tale-spinner.
You protect against that by being a republic: building anti-majoritarian protections into your constitution (big or small C).
We used to do it here by state selection of senators, property qualifications for the franchise, keeping incompatible cultures out, an electoral college, a federal system where the federal government can't reach down into the states whenever it wants under imaginary commerce justification, separation of powers where not everything is justiciable, etc.
The Brits used to do it within a constitutional monarchy with features like a hereditary upper house with real powers, a monarch who actually had the option not to assent to bills, a franchise with property qualifications, a federal-ish system of union between the constituent nations, a bench with limited powers, and of course good old Northern European internalization of the rules. For instance, a PM who knew he'd lost the confidence of his party or the people as a whole used to feel duty-bound to call a new election.
Of course both we and the Brits have been dismantling these systems over the past 80 years or so. Which makes our systems more democratic in terms of nationwide majorities determining policy, but less free in that those majoritarian tantrums usually end up reducing everyone's rights. CC, JSM
More people are ecstatic about this than not. It’s a great win, especially for Venezuelans. The celebrations are awesome to see. I’m very happy for their gain of freedom, while tentative about the next steps.
We are living through likely one of the most consequential presidential administrations in US history. Even a bit weary, Trump runs rings around everyone. Rubio and Hegseth are true stars.
OK. Who had Freder rushing in and defending his fellow thug-buddy, Maduro?
/everybody raises hands
Jupiter said...
"I don't think Chavez stole the first election.
He just made elections pointless after winning the first one."
You may be right about the first one. But the way he "made elections pointless" was by having software developed to steal the second one.
He also just killed and jailed his political opponents. It just highlights that most people in the world are not smart enough to vote.
In any case, it does sound as if you feel that democracy has been tried and found wanting. But what do you propose to replace it with? Monarchy, explicit or tacit? Patents of nobility? Even Augustus was careful to preserve the forms of the Republic.
The only people in the world who have proven they can actually elect decent representatives are protestant male christians. The Secular Marxists have done an end around in the US by importing third worlders and passing the 19th amendment.
I would argue that the US faces essentially the same problem that ended the Roman Republic. The form of government that sufficed to govern a small, fairly weak state was no match for the pressures unleashed by its growing power. Bread and circuses kept the urban mob quiet, but ambitious senators were always tempted to seek foreign allies, whose interests were contrary to those of the Roman citizens.
I would agree with that. Our Constitution was sufficient for 13 colonies. Our Federal government is an obvious monstrosity and needs to be done away with.
My best guess would be an election at the National level of a singular Unitary Executive whose only powers are:
1. The military
2. The ability to tax the governments of each State to maintain the military.
3. A limited Federal Court System.
4. The responsibility to manage the contract between each state and its voters.
The only people in the world who have proven they can actually elect decent representatives are protestant male christians.
The Roman Republic did it pretty well for about 450 of its 500 years.
’Oh good, Beasts of England is here. You owe me an apology. Your friend is a liar and full of shit.’
I have no idea why I’d owe you an apology or on what basis you’d claim my buddy is a liar and full of shit. I do wish you a pleasant evening and emotional calm.
"This saved thousands of lives, many of them Americans, many Venezuelan, and removed a cancer in our hemisphere, while protecting our strategic interests ..."
I hope you're right, but so far all that's happened is we rescued the Maduros from their various shady associates, and blew up some Venezuelan bases. It isn't clear to me what that accomplished. Shock and awe?
"Of course both we and the Brits have been dismantling these systems over the past 80 years or so ..."
Well. Those systems have been getting dismantled. You might want to ask yourself whose interests that served. A nation requires agents to serve its interests. A monarch recruits those agents from the nobility, who serve their own interests thereby. An imperfect calculation, but workable. But a democracy enfranchises a much larger fraction of the populace. It is much harder to keep all of them on the side of the nation they inhabit. As we have been noticing, of late.
"The only people in the world who have proven they can actually elect decent representatives are protestant male christians."
Must have been some Muslims in the woodpile back in 1856 or so.
Hassayamper said...
The only people in the world who have proven they can actually elect decent representatives are protestant male christians.
The Roman Republic did it pretty well for about 450 of its 500 years.
I would counter that most of their best leaders were not elected.
They also severely limited who could vote in ways I would support.
Also
Jupiter: "A nation requires agents to serve its interests. A monarch recruits those agents from the nobility, who serve their own interests thereby. An imperfect calculation, but workable. But a democracy enfranchises a much larger fraction of the populace. It is much harder to keep all of them on the side of the nation they inhabit. "
Yes, exactly. Something as simple as a House of Lords drawn from families that have been in your country since 1066 or earlier, or a Senate of good ol'boys chosen by good ol'boys in their respective State governments, ensures there's some part of your representative government that remembers the way things have always been and puts some kind of brake on efforts to change them. Which seems in the short term to frustrate the people's will, but in the long term preserves the people's rights. CC, JSM
I have no idea why I’d owe you an apology or on what basis you’d claim my buddy is a liar and full of shit.
So you still think the 82nd Airborne is hiding somewhere in the jungles of Venezuela? You really are a dumbshit.
“That is what Greenland is for.”
Especially once it global-warms into a very large Ireland!
Not going to happen for a very long time (the de-icing of Greenland). Its mile-deep, subcontinental-sized ice sheet is presently melting (unlike Antarctica's even larger ice sheet)—but at a rate which will see Greenland entirely permanent-ice-free in something like 10,000 years.
Meanwhile, however, Greenland already hosts ice-free regions adding up to larger than the states of California (land area), Montana, or Germany—which, in turn, are far larger than Ireland.
’So you still think the 82nd Airborne is hiding somewhere in the jungles of Venezuela? You really are a dumbshit.’
Hahaha. I never made such a claim because I don’t know. I merely posted something sent to me, and it seemed so weird at the time I didn’t even respond. Get your emotions under control, silly boy.
Post a Comment
Please use the comments forum to respond to the post. Don't fight with each other. Be substantive... or interesting... or funny. Comments should go up immediately... unless you're commenting on a post older than 2 days. Then you have to wait for us to moderate you through. It's also possible to get shunted into spam by the machine. We try to keep an eye on that and release the miscaught good stuff. We do delete some comments, but not for viewpoint... for bad faith.