From "Americans Are Turning Against Gay People" (NYT).
Tolerance?! I would think it's considered homophobic just to use the word "tolerance," which connotes minimal acceptance and little more than a willingness to refrain from discriminating or saying actively mean things. In fact, I'd suggest it is the demand to do so much more — to celebrate pride in sexual matters and to endure indoctrination sessions that force feed questionable fine points — that has made people resistant and more likely to check a less gay-friendly box on the survey.
The authors of the NYT article reject the speculation that it's a reaction to the push for transgender rights or worry about sexually grooming children. They prefer to speculate that the decline in "tolerance" for gay people is tied to 1. "social instability" — "the Covid pandemic, economic strain and intensifying political conflict” — and 2. "a loss of confidence" in the establishment combined with a perception that gay rights is "an establishment position."
***
My rankling at the word "tolerance" was influenced by George Washington. In his famous 1790 Letter to the Hebrew Congregation in Newport, Rhode Island, he wrote: "It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights."
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96 comments:
’In fact, I'd suggest it is the demand to do so much more — to celebrate pride in sexual matters and to endure indoctrination sessions that force feed questionable fine points — that has made people resistant and more likely to check a less gay-friendly box on the survey.’
I’d agree that it’s an element of the change, but I’d argue the ‘T’ is having much greater negative impact.
"The authors of the NYT article reject the speculation that it's a reaction to the push for transgender rights or worry about sexually grooming children. "
How can people read this rag and believe anything written in it?
My hypothesis is that it's because the LGB faction is still standing by the T faction.
I will only note that my own observation is that gay tolerance, or even lack of, on the right is objectively less anti-gay than the pro-trans sterilization programs pushed by progressives.
I see the article has rejected my speculation. Mea culpa.
It is the "T," the forced celebration of gays (a whole month? Mandatory "pride" celebrations to be participated in by non-gays), etc., but it is likely also the embrace by the LGBTetc. Activists of being anti-ICE, anti-America, pro-Islamist (which is really odd, other than it's being funded heavily by anti-American sources) and the like. The gay community would be well served by distancing themselves from leftism.
The authors of the NYT article reject the speculation that it's a reaction to the push for transgender rights or worry about sexually grooming children.
That would imply that those who push for transgender rights or engage in behavior that might be taken for sexually grooming children have agency. And we know that no good Leftist has ever had agency.
"fell especially steeply" and "surged particularly sharply" hurt my ears incredibly horribly.
"Gay" in my experience has always referred to male and/or female homosexuality. Adding the "T" and finding that many people are not supportive doesn't mean they've changed their minds about gays.
One factor is those of us knuckle-draggers who stubbornly cling to our straightness, in spite of being shown the wonderfulness and pridefulness of being gay.
The problem isn't the LGB.
It is the TIQ+.
Mostly the + but the T have been shooting a lot of people lately.
Not "anti-gay", just tired of being sheep-dipped in pro-gay advocacy in media 24/7. Watch Netflix-made series: every program has graphic gay sex, more graphic gay sex, and then yet another gay sex season. I now fully understand the mechanics of gay sex, can draw x-rated diagram of how to do it too.
If your axe-to-grind de jour doesn't loses significant ground when there is social upheaval, then it's validity as something anyone else should worry about goes up in smoke. Civilization overlays human nature with vaneer of behavior about as thick as an onion skin. Once that social layer comes away, you're left with the real deal and things everyday people worry about the most. The rest isn't worth their time.
So AA qhat word would you use to measure change in attitude? I've never attended an LGBT indoctrination session. Although i have been annoyed at having to attend implicit bias sessions (which include biases besides gay/lesbian). I would have guessed the T issue has had an effect based on timing although i easily separate T from LGB. (Anyone upset with exercise of right to bisexuality?)
Probably for the same reason that Islamic control of Iran has led to a decline in religiosity in Iran. The tighter they impose ideology, the more people dump the ideology.
These numbers demonstrate that a general process of secularisation, known to encourage religious diversity, is taking place in Iran. An overwhelming majority, 90%, described themselves as hailing from believing or practising religious families. Yet 47% reported losing their religion in their lifetime, and 6% said they changed from one religious orientation to another. Younger people reported higher levels of irreligiosity and conversion to Christianity than older respondents.
"Americans Are Turning Against Gay People"
And gays worked really really hard to get here!
stutefish said, "My hypothesis is that it's because the LGB faction is still standing by the T faction."
More of a hostage crisis...
When gay people started shooting conservatives in their necks, yeah, anti-gay animus is going to rise.
Try not murdering people and running over ICE officials just trying to do their jobs and maybe we won't hate ya'll so much.
The problem isn't the LGB. It is the TIQ+.
Don't forget all the P pedophiles in the gay community, and there are millions of them.
Try not murdering people and running over ICE officials just trying to do their jobs and maybe we won't hate ya'll so much.
Even just try not to appear to ally yourselves with such. Baby steps.
..I would think it's considered homophobic just to use the word "tolerance.."
We are REQUIRED, to think
that gaydom is THE MOST BEST THING IN THE WHOLE WORLD!
GAY is GOOD! Straight is SHITTY!
ALL PEOPLE HAIL LGBTQIA2S+++
It's taught at school.. It's taught at Church.. It's taught at Preschool
It's Shoved Down Our Throats
And the Powers That Be WONDER WHY we're sick of it
LOL they know. They dismissed the trans push and looked for a way to blame anything else. Gay people are sick and tired of the trans push too and know some people associate gay and trans.
The people that have been stridently instructing us in what to think are now dismayed to discover that we are quite happy to do our own thinking, thank you, and furthermore are resentfully dismissive of those who consider themselves our betters, without evidence, and demand that we agree.
FormerLawClerk said...
The problem isn't the LGB. It is the TIQ+.
Don't forget all the P pedophiles in the gay community, and there are millions of them.
+ is plus, or P.
They put + there instead of pedophile.
I'm very, very suspicious of the supposed field work they did to gather this evidence. There are so many other confounding factors at play in their survey methodology, that reducing it to single-factor "change in bias" is laughable.
There is a replication crisis in the social sciences, and this smells like a classic case.
But the Times needs to push its worldview. At least they didn't dump all the "blame" on Trump.
Transphobia?
Two men and a womb?
Political congruence ("=") with forward-looking collateral damage.
Sound and fury signifying nothing
Transgender spectrum dysphoria.
The authors of the NYT article reject the speculation that it's a reaction to the push for transgender rights or worry about sexually grooming children
Because discussion of any issue that might weaken their certainty, or put their standing in their identity community at risk is taboo, or as Freud put it in the original German, tabu.
"Who wants to address their actual arguments? We just want to scold them, not that it will change any minds, but our readers love it! Think of it as fan service."
Homosexuals transition in the womb. The effort of political congruent ("=") activists to socially distance homos from sims is a bigoted enterprise motivated by fear and hate of conflation through liberal pride and progress is a fetus... feature of the Pro-Choice religion under the DEIst umbrella.
Grifters, gropers, and groomers are the three legs of the liberal triad.
P is a sexual orientation licit under Democratic law and forward-looking in progress sects. #NoJudgment #NoLabels
"Tolerance?! I would think it's considered homophobic just to use the word "tolerance," which connotes minimal acceptance and little more than a willingness to refrain from discriminating or saying actively mean things."
These people aren't particularly bright.
So, homosexuals are not having a gay old time and now they are under pressure to transition, again, but this time to remain political congruent ("=") as the spectrum becomes more Diverse, Equivocal, and Inclusive.
That's right. Transgenders (e.g. homosexuals) have been tolerated but not celebrated, in prides on the plains or otherwise. The spectrum has no redeeming value to humanity or society.
There are more people today who are gay and even gregarious. #HateLovesAbortion
Yeah Gay people are just like Blacks. We shall overcome! Seems like what you do in the "Privacy of your own bedroom" is actually very, very important.
I'm waiting for people who like to stick their dick up women's butts to be a special protected class. Hetros for sodomy!
"I would think it's considered homophobic just to use the word "tolerance,"
Oh, it's considered homophobic all right. By all the best people, may their livers rot.
The "gameplan" is to first ask for tolerance, then to ask for "equal rights", and then get special privilages. You see with blacks who went from "Judge us by our character & not by the color of our skin" to "we need a ban on discrimination" to "special rights, affirmative action, and quotas".
Gays are in-between the "We need to ban discrimination" phase and the "we have Special rights" phase. They can put you in jail for putting tire tracks on painted on the road Gay flag or for not baking a cake for a Gay couple, but we still don't have OFFICIAL set-asides and quotas for Gays.
Well, you know what Chesterton said about taking down the fence. Maybe you have to let the homos do what homos like to do for a while, before people remember why we didn't used to let the homos do what homos like to do.
I take the view that they are broken. They don't work right. And that's too bad, but so what? They still don't work right.
The Word is clear on this matter, it is the wisdom of world
To ignore the Truth
While I agree the "T" is the greatest cause of the perceived growth of the so-called "anti-gay" perceptions, militant gays have done as much damage to society's perception of them. Just compare the first gay rights parade in 1970, celebrating Stonewall riots anniversary, to the freak show we see in today's "pride" parades. Or, perhaps, look at world class deviant, CA's "elected" Scott Weiner, a full in your face enabler of pedophilia.
1 - stop placing the gay flag everywhere. It's tired and obnoxious at this point. You've won . Give it a rest.
2- The trans stuff is really pissing us off. Gays too!
Of course the Gays never wanted to just do what they did in the "Privacy of their own homes". They didn't want tolerance, they wanted everyone to bow down and applaud.
I saw a 1973 youtube where Bob Hope Joked: "They just passed a law legalizing Gay sex in california. Good thing I got out before they made it compulsory".
Today, Bob Hope would be "Cancelled" for the joke and brought up for "hate crimes".
Diversity (i.e. bloc ideologies, especially disordered) garner disapproval. It's not homosexuals, not couplets, but rather that specific and peculiar faith and practice of discriminatory conception as political congruence, etc.
It's my theory that very few people like to be told what to do. Foisting tolerance on the world is doing exactly that. And if someone is by nature not really caring about what other people are doing/loving/living with because they've been brought up to be kind (and that many things are not one's business) and therefore they are already being very tolerant, well, there's a friction there.
Lesley Gore said it best.
Maybe people have just had enough.
"Foisting tolerance on the world is doing exactly that."
How tolerant are those doing the foisting?
"Americans Are Turning Against Gay People"
Survey finds 10% of Americans are “turning against” gay people. Or is it that over the last 50 years 90% of Americans have turned so far “for” gay people that they can’t turn anymore without turning against straight people.
If I were in charge of designing the human species, it would not have occurred to me to include genes for same sex attraction. Lack of imagination I suppose.
Social science research is usually designed to prove what researchers want it to prove. The question behind this is whether societies have to continually assert homosexuality as a positive good in order not to fall back to the days of persecution. "Men who live in the shadows" was a theme when Mike Wallace discovered homosexuals in the Sixties (Lesbians still awaited their discoverer). If every TV and movie doesn't have a positive gay character, does that mean it's back into the shadows?
“Lesley Gore said it best.“
What, that it’s her party and now it’s Judy’s turn to cry if she wants to?
Or maybe the poll is bad. Most people will judge a group by the members they know. If you don’t know any gays and consume Hollywood’s dreck, you could have a negative view of gays. If you know some gays and have a positive view of them, then Hollywood’s dreck doesn’t affect.
Did the NYT check out anti-gay bias in the Moslem community?
the endless victim to color stripe ratio added to the never ending grievance flag.
I thought all this sex sex sex was no ones business?
Lets get back to that.
When are they going to add the Pro-Pedo color stripe?
And what color is the pro-pedo acceptance stripe?
A half Century plus past, 1960, Freshman college student in SF, had job as night manager of an establishment which combined the best of a hotel with a boarding house. Anyway, general mgr. was gay, as was the owner (they weren't in a relationship).
Also, next door was a lesbian bar wherein douchie 18 yo could drink.
Used to harass bosses to quit boy toys and find realistic partners while offering up my perceived virginity to the lesbians. Think I may have had the best freshman college year ever (many of residents at our establishment were young females new to the City, (wink, wink). Not bragging as my "batting" average wouldn't qualify me for a Special Olympics team
“ If you know some gays and have a positive view of them, then Hollywood’s dreck doesn’t affect.”
If the dreck doesn’t affect, you must deflect.
Oh, so much to unpack here. Let's focus first on the term "homophobia" implying, of course, a deep-seated or irrational fear of homosexuals. For many, or even most Americans not flying the rainbow flag, the better term would probably be "homoaidia", adding "aidia", the standard modern and ancient Greek word for disgust, revulsion, loathing, or intense distaste toward something unpleasant, repulsive, or morally/offensively objectionable to the venerable "homo". But even that doesn't distinguish all possible reactions to the LGBTQIA2S+ spectrum, which acronym I doubt most of the Althouse commentariat can decipher without resort to contemporary reference material.
To use myself as an example, I enjoy the wit of gay men in their various forms of repartee, can enjoy their traditional cultural expressions once or twice a year, resent their outsized influence in government and feel repulsed when presented (film only! When they get naked or start making out). I enjoy lesbians and lesbian sex acts when they look like the featured ladies of Season 2 of Lioness (not the diesel dyke character) but feel repulsed if they resemble Renee and Rebecca Good. On the rare occasion that I can entertain two women who are willing to perform same sex acts I positively adore them, provided they fall in the Lioness category. Is this a form of "homophobia"? Or do I require a different adjective?
And let's not be too critical of "tolerance". To this day the number of parents who hope to conceive a gay son or lesbian daughter remains near zero. Tolerance, must proceed acceptance, I should think, on its way to the exalted state of "I am glad he/she is happy".
As a 60+ male breeder who has been a strong defender of gays and gay rights, I think the backsliding in gay support is a cumulative effect of many things.
Ingratitude. After gay marriage was easily won, with minimal opposition, the gay community had a very entitled attitude and started to immediately force people to not only tolerate gays but to actively support. I.e. bake the cake bigot.
Lewdness. Too many gays were forcing their sexuality on other people by being to in your face with gay pride parades.
Grooming. Then the push to support gay youths. Many people took this as grooming behavior. Which quickly turned into kids being sexualized in gay pride events and drag queen story time. And finally the grade school pro gay indoctrination.
Then the trans started strong with the bathroom wars. That was a big victory when it was only about adult or university places. Then we got the men in girl locker rooms and boys in girls sports.
All that combined into a “leave the kids alone” primal scream. Gays are lucky there has been such a minor pullback in support.
RCOCEAN II said...
I'm waiting for people who like to stick their dick up women's butts to be a special protected class. Heteros for sodomy!
"Butt sex" has been mainstreamed among young heterosexuals in this century, while you were growing old. I find this an interesting phenomenon as my "lived experience" is that maybe three women out of 100 actually enjoy it. Ask yourself how this has come to be so.
Anal cancer is on the rise.
I had gay friends back in the day. Even bought some same-sex wedding gifts. Changed a flat tire for two of them in the middle of the night: two males, neither who could change a flat tire.
When Trump was first elected they decided my vote meant we weren't friends anymore.
They told me about how they would be rounded up into cattle cars and then I'd be sorry.
As far as I know, they haven't been rounded up into cattle cars.
I can't be sorry for something that hasn't happened yet.
The "Gays will be rounded up and killed by Trump!" LIE -
A leftwing lie - spread like wildfire.
I heard the same thing from a friend.
Leftists love lies. They are all lying lairs who lie. they spread lies, they swallow lies - and they buy every lie told to them without question. Why they are a cult.
Immigration reform? Community organization, perhaps.
Civil unions for all consenting adults? #NoJudgment #NoLabels #LoveWins?
Whatever sexual deviance any of us heterosexuals practice or aspire to, or at least did before we got too old, we at least generally have the decency to keep it to ourselves, rather than parade it down Main Street for the month of June. Really, folks, it'd be much easier to be tolerant about what other people did in the privacy of their bedrooms, IF they would keep it in the privacy of their bedrooms! Pride Month, with its in-your-face celebration of some really tawdry, unhealthy and embarrassing behaviors, probably accounts for half of the backlash against the Alphabet people.
I would ascribe the remaining half of the backlash to the insane overreach, particularly of the T crowd, on such no-brainers as sticking to the sports competitions that feature the biological sex (SEX, not GENDER) into which you were born. When 80% of the public shares the same view of an issue contrary to your own, it's over, folks, You lost.
Meade said...
Or is it that over the last 50 years 90% of Americans have turned so far “for” gay people that they can’t turn anymore without turning against straight people.
Dear Meade, this is well underway. Try being an older man who dates younger women. This has become one of the most transgressive sexual orientations in western culture. It is routinely conflated with pedophilia. There are women who state publicly that men should not even be allowed to look at them in the gym. The 20-something phenom, Sofia Isella is making her bones demonizing older men in song (see Above the Neck). If you go watch that, please follow it with James the Seventh "Trauma Olympics" to cleanse your brain.
Robert Marshall.. Well said.
"Butt sex" has been mainstreamed among young heterosexuals in this century, while you were growing old"
Really, how do you know that? Are millions of Americans reporting their sex lives to you? I doubt it. Maybe you think your personal experience is universal.
But thanks for taking a joke seriously, and giving me report on American sex lives. Up close, and personal!
"Really, folks, it'd be much easier to be tolerant about what other people did in the privacy of their bedrooms, IF they would keep it in the privacy of their bedrooms!"
"They" arent going to be that way, and haven't been for 30 years.
RCOCEAN II said...
"Butt sex" has been mainstreamed among young heterosexuals in this century, while you were growing old"
Really, how do you know that? Are millions of Americans reporting their sex lives to you? I doubt it. Maybe you think your personal experience is universal.
But thanks for taking a joke seriously, and giving me report on American sex lives. Up close, and personal!
Many a true word spoken in jest, RC. Your joke may have been closer to the truth than you know. As for what I know, perhaps I interact with a lot more young people than the typical member of our geriatric commentariat. With enough personal data points, one approaches statistical significance. A certain number of data points is what the referenced NYT article is based on, after all.
Gays are an officially designated victim group by the DNC. The most important aspect of being an officially designated Democratic victim group is that you continue to believe you’re a victim. Should gays stop believing this, they would be less inclined to vote for Democrats. Hence the need for the NYT to portray gays as victims before each election cycle. Mystery solved.
Perception is a mode of reality where hope lurks at twilight.
“ Grooming. Then the push to support gay youths. Many people took this as grooming behavior. Which quickly turned into kids being sexualized in gay pride events and drag queen story time. And finally the grade school pro gay indoctrination.”
Cookie assured me this would never happen.
Professor Althouse is rankled! Oh, dear. Whatever shall we do?
I linked to the article, but it was behind a paywall. I was able to quickly read a little bit before the advertising came up to blot things out, just enough to gather that one of the authors of the article was also one of the researchers that uncovered the data. And this brings me to one of the things I strongly dislike about non-STEM professors. They collect data, it contains something interesting, and then instead of investigating the root causes, they pull something out of the air to explain their observations, and the more that something pulled out of thin air slams the hated white majority, the better.
The authors of the NYT article reject the speculation that it's a reaction to the push for transgender rights or worry about sexually grooming children.
And they are clearly wrong to do so. I get that the Professor does not use locker rooms, and is not at risk of finding herself showering in front of a naked, biological male stranger, but that are high school teenagers up to and including adult women who certainly have found themselves in that predicament. The lack of sympathy for their situation that I am seeing from lefties, including lefties as close to the center as Althouse appear to be, was puzzling at first. I mean, the L's -- most of them -- and the G's decided that their alliance with the T's was more important than risking their acceptance by a world that is predominantly straight, and while I think they're idiots I can at least get it. But the lefties? I can only imagine that they don't expect to find themselves changing clothes in locker room so they don't much care.
And the authors are idiots not to hear people practically standing on tables and shouting into bullhorns: "Leave our kids the fuck alone, you fucking dumb fucks!"
I guess only a left wing extremist non-STEM professor writing for the New York Times could find a way to miss that.
The problem for the Ts are the Ss that are equal but incongruent to the Hs.
For the under 25s, I think the big issue is the MtF Ts being angry with the Ls that are falling under the sway of the TERFs.
I want to find which poll is showing this drop in tolerance and I couldn't find a direct one. But man, these Gallup polls are all showing drops from 2021 peak in LBGT. The page shows polls going back years, and the trend in questions is also quite interesting.
“ Jupiter said...
“I take the view that they are broken. They don't work right. And that's too bad, but so what? They still don't work right.”
My understand is that male homosexuality is most often a failure to fully masculinize the male brain, at certain times during gestation. And this can be a result of insufficient testosterone at those times, sometimes as a result of maternal stress.
Female homosexuality appears to have two different causes. In the one category are the true female homosexuals. In the other are heterosexuals or bisexuals who have chosen being lesbians. Often, it seems, that their choice was made after problems in a heterosexual marriage. Renee Good may have been in this category.
If you spend much time with lesbians, which is which is usually fairly easy to pick up. The true homosexual lesbians feel to heterosexual guys to be almost guys. There is little if any sexual tension with them. Contrast that with lesbians by choice. There tends to be male/female sexual tension with them, but most often it comes out in male hating. I don’t have much patience with them.
In any case, they tend to all have miswired brains. So, yes, I often feel sorry for them. But cater to them? Hell No! It’s a disability, not that different from sickle cell anemia or Downs Syndrome.
You know the old joke, it has gone from the love that dare not speak its name to the one that wont shut up.
The sex people have worn me down. I loathe their politics, their political practices, and the stunning damage that they have to communities worldwide
We told them, again and again "Get your hands off the kids."
There Drag Queen Story Hour and social justice warriors loudly celebrating they intended to turn kids gay.
The FAed, and now they're FOing.
The more political, the less popular.
People are fatigued by the constant barrage of the ghey. Even many homosexuals are fatigued by it.
Here’s what the Outrage Machine wasn’t telling the Gullibles while they upgraded the Southern Strategy playbook.
People overwhelmingly support public schools and libraries. The Outrage Machine and the Heritage Foundation hate them. So while the Outrage Machine was convincing the Gulibles that Democrats were planting CRT monsters under the children’s beds who came out at night to jab them with a vaccine that would turn them gay, they were changing laws and loading up public school and library boards with MAGA loyalists.
The part that bothers me is the changing definition. If tolerance means that I accept that you are gay and you think that is perfectly fine, then I am tolerant. If it is supposed to mean that I think that is perfectly fine, and not a sin, then I am most certainly not tolerant. I have no intention of interfering with how you want to live your life. But I also have no intention of telling you that it is OK with God. Or with YOU using class time to tell my children that it is natural and OK with God. Tolerance is fine with me, but do not change the definition on me, or it becomes not fine, and lo and behold, it seems it is not fine with a lot of other people.
Gays against groomers.
The left does not approve.
What makes the alphabet victim gay-club/flag nazis so obnoxious - is their adherence to the soros left cult.
"In fact, I'd suggest it is the demand to do so much more — to celebrate pride in sexual matters and to endure indoctrination sessions that force feed questionable fine points — that has made people resistant and more likely to check a less gay-friendly box on the survey."
Bingo!
Try being an older man who dates younger women. This has become one of the most transgressive sexual orientations in western culture.
[Insert comical Epstein reference here]
Trans fatigue, but the problem is not homos, it's sims. Why the social distancing through banner and rhetoric?
Also, pride parades. Where are the lions, lionesses, and unPlanned cubs in gay play? Big disappointment. Huge.
Of course it’s all about the trans insanity. So obvious it certainly doesn’t need repeating (but I will anyway).
Gay folks made a serious, and entirely unforced, error in allowing the mentally ill to climb aboard the LGB bandwagon. Did they think there would be no consequences. They should have shut it down at the first hint but…drag queens or something…
How would anyone possibly know how much anti-gay sentiment there is. I'm gay, and have gotten 99% acceptance since 1975. Libs go out of their way to show how tolerant they are and it rubs me wrong, though I do my best to tolerate them. No kidding. Most everyone wants to live and let live. Why concern myself with the shortcomings of others when I have my own faults to contend with.
Not Illinois Resident said...
Not "anti-gay", just tired of being sheep-dipped in pro-gay advocacy in media 24/7. Watch Netflix-made series: every program has graphic gay sex, more graphic gay sex, and then yet another gay sex season. I now fully understand the mechanics of gay sex, can draw x-rated diagram of how to do it too.
________________
So, when is your children's book coming out?
Maybe those third world "migrants" the NYT is so fond of still want to throw homos off the roof. It could skew their survey findings.
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