"They are drawn to what they describe as a more demanding, even difficult, practice of Christianity. Echoing some of the rhetoric of the so-called manosphere, new waves of young converts say Orthodoxy offers them hard truths and affirms their masculinity.... Many of the young Americans new to the pews have been introduced to Orthodoxy by hard-edge influencers on YouTube and other social media platforms.... Orthodoxy 'appeals to the masculine soul,' said Josh Elkins, a student at North Carolina State University who was chatting with other young men.'The Orthodox Church is the only church that really coaches men hard, and says, "This is what you need to do,"' said Mr. Elkins, 20.... Some converts report approvingly that Orthodoxy has a more masculine feel than other traditions. Priests, who must be male and can marry, often have large beards and big families. Orthodoxy asks practitioners to make sacrifices like fasting, rather than offering them emotional contemporary music and therapeutic sermons, which critics describe as the typical evangelical megachurch experience...."
From "Orthodox Church Pews Are Overflowing With Converts/'In the whole history of the Orthodox Church in America, this has never been seen,' a priest said about the surge of young men drawn to the demanding practice of Christianity'" (NYT)(gift link, because there's much more to the article, many photographs, and a torrent of negativity in the comments section).
Typical comments over there: "Wearing gilded robes and kissing gilded books is masculine? Having an imaginary friend that you follow rules for is masculine? These guys are desperate for meaning and will bend over backwards and forwards for it. Anything but actual self reflection and growth." And: "What a sad spectacle. Real Orthodoxy is rooted in actual cultures, like Serbia or Georgia or Armenia, and for good or bad you can find an authentic culture there. What this article describes is a ridiculous Youtube phenomenon."
Posts
55 comments:
Have fun feminists.
You caused this.
The pendulum swings.
The trappings and religions of secular and theistic faith.
Once again, dems are the experts who know nothing.
Of course nationalism is a major challenge to the universality of the Church and of religion in general, and this has been the case since the early 19th century at least. The ways in which the Church, and Catholicism in particular, views itself, and views its position vis-a-vis the state, has been changing. For religion is no longer the opium of the people, and no longer the handmaiden of increasingly secular state entities. Nowadays opium applies more to capitalism, or netflix. And, perhaps as a result, the Church has become much more true to itself, and its calling to stand by the poor and the oppressed (Luke 4:18). This is above all a return to the Church's traditions.
Once again, a micro phenomenon is presented as the Next Big Thing.
Torrent of Negativity would be a good name for a band. Delightful!
"Anything but actual self reflection and growth."
Oh sure, I see LOTS of young lefties undertaking "actual self reflection and growth." What clearer sign than that their profile pictures so often reveal their latest moral fad?
Looking into a religion with a 2,000-year history of trial, error, success, failure, in applied human psychology - this seems to me FAR superior to "self reflection" that allows you to conclude that doing what thou wilt is self-evidently "moral" because otherwise you wouldn't want to do it.
As to the "cultural appropriation" argument - whatever. Hope that person doesn't eat tacos unless s/he is actually of Mexican descent - otherwise it's just a foodie phenomenon. And don't even get me started on omekase.
"The pendulum swings."
Not to mention the censer.
“ young Americans new to the pews”
What orthodox churches have pews? I’ve been in hundreds of eastern Orthodox churches and I’ve never seen pews in any of them. Some have a few chairs but no pews.
Ampersand said..."Once again, a micro phenomenon is presented as the Next Big Thing."
A lot of that going around, nowadays.
Nowadays opium applies more to capitalism, or netflix.
I'll give you Netflix. But religion was never the opiate of the masses, nor is capitalism. Those platitudes are manufactured to suit a purpose that crushes the human spirit while pretending to elevate it. Are the socialist kids happier and more fulfilled because they're eaten up with envy of those doing better than they are financially? Or even since they feel superior (if a little guilty about it) to those who are doing less will? It's Marxism that is the opiate. Clearly.
A "torrent of negativity" aptly describes the commenters on the NYT.
I did just check, and there are several recent comments defending young men and this choice of faith.
Also, more "men in the ladies room" mentions in the article!
It’s a rejection of the institutions that woke usurped, and then expected that the respect was completely transferable to them. It’s the same with literature, they imposed standards of conduct on characters, male and female, that don’t mesh with human nature, and now literary fiction is dying, and women are reading romantasy, where men and women can be men and women because, wink wink, it’s just fantasy.
In the Soviet Union, a small number of true believers enforced their norms, and eventually they wore out their welcome, and the Russian Orthodox Church was revived by people who had seen enough.
I welcome Pope Leo's words that offer a loving alternative to the hate, pride and anger that seem to fuel nationalism. Others do the same but do not have his stature and gravitas. Perfection does not exist in human relations, but we can do better for ourselves and our world.
Boomers in their greed and sloth raised a generation of children with no real guidance or understanding of how to build a moral foundation.
Hedonism reached its peak in 2024.
What really needs to be arranged is a cultural exchange. We need to trade our current crop of college educated women for women in places like Africa and Afghanistan and Southeast Asia.
They can teach the toxically masculine men in those countries how to behave and the men here can be husbands to women who would like to have families and live in the wealthiest country on earth.
"Wearing gilded robes and kissing gilded books is masculine? Having an imaginary friend that you follow rules for is masculine?"
There's nothing quite like the self-righteousness of an anonymous mediocrity in a comment section thinking he's scoring rhetorical points by displaying ignorance.
Hate from women, soi boys, and atheists. The "tolerant Left"
"Many of the young Americans new to the pews ..."
The only time I went to an Orthodox service, there were no pews. Having to stand all that time was a deal-breaker.
Younger Priest: Is there one aspect of the faith you find particularly attractive?
George Costanza: I think, the hats.
I can understand the appeal, but who wants to be another Rod Dreher?
Butkis51's comment at 10.44 AM immediately followed by Kakistocracy's comment.
Perfect.
Religion refers to a behavioral protocol or model. Capitalism to a democratic economic system to assess pricing of products and services based on accessibility, availability, and demand, and retained earnings from presumably productive enterprises. The invisible hand or the glaring fist and boot? Choices.
These converts seek to cultivate the Kavorka.
Every NYT article is an opportunity for the commenters there to describe how much they hate their fellow Americans.
Real men are into Norse Paganism. The Christian Holy Land is a barren desert shit hole cursed by climate change and beside by constant treachery and Civil War. Achilles is absolutely right. All of the boys who were gelded in childhood by a feminized upbringing are naturally drawn to a misogynistic religious cult. It makes them feel safe to keep their women inside burlap sacks just like their Hasidic and Islamic Brotherhood.
Sneering never went out of style. But maybe something is happening, and they don't know what it is.
Well just hate um right back
Being superior isn't hate, it's a responsibility. Hate is a manifestation of weakness, ignorance and stupidity dominating the psyche. This is why the so-called Holy Land is the most hateful place on Earth.
Wherever the Word lies there is value of course there is the obligatory sneering at Russian orthodoxism how has that worked out
#HateLovesAbortion
I understand that US Orthodox services are in English, so worship makes more sense to me than going to Tridentine Mass. But will all these young men find women?
“Orthodoxy 'appeals to the masculine soul,' said Josh Elkins, a student at North Carolina State University who was chatting with other young men.'The Orthodox Church is the only church that really coaches men hard, and says, "This is what you need to do,"' said Mr. Elkins, 20....”
Heh. Wait till they discover Islam.
It is a reaction to our over-secularized and over-Islamized society. So many young men are tired of being used as a punching bag for everyone else’s issues and whimpering. They seek what the ‘enlightened’ ministers, pastors, priests of today are not offering in their quest to be woke and sell equity. They see the regimented orthodoxies of Islam attract converts, but are not into beheading or threatening others.
And so they are finding a home in a church that offers what they are seeking.
They just built a new Greek Orthodox church in my part of town. Glorious white with gold domes, it is very attractive, maybe the most church looking church in the area.
How many women roughnecks did you work with? Was that because women were barred from work they wanted to do, or are women somehow different?
I was a Protestant minister for 26 years. During the last several years serving an increasingly liberal church I began attending Great Vespers (Saturday evening prayer) at the Orthodox church in our city. For a while I was (besides the priest and the choir) the most regular attender. I loved my time with the Orthodox.The Orthodox church was an island of sanity who strengthened and sustained me while I struggle to continue working for an increasingly wackadoodle church. When I retired early from pastoral ministry in 2022 I hoped to become Orthodox. My wife and I became Catholic. Did not expect that.
My point is that I understand very well the appeal of Orthodox Christianity to men.
The dudes on Mount Athos are bad asses.
That was a tremendously lazy and simplistic take on a complex phenomenon. The next time that author attempts to cover Orthodoxy in America, I hope she bothers to speak to a wider group of people and learn more about the subject - without indulging in silly (and false) generalizations as to how American Orthodoxy views the State of Israel.
Its the Times what did you expect
They dont want any contest with worship of the State and skydragon (agw)
imTay said...
How many women roughnecks did you work with? Was that because women were barred from work they wanted to do, or are women somehow different?
Thanks for asking this ridiculous question.
In the grand scheme of things not many men are roughnecks not many men work in heavy construction, basic industry or even serve in the military. Yet, many many men who have never worked in a job where death and or dismemberment is a daily possibility like to take credit for the jobs that other men do where they would never dare set foot in.
It's those types of whiny wimpy complaining Jack offs join an Orthodox Church and the men's group so they can all sit around and tell each other how much the women in their lives hen peck them.
Orthodoxy asks practitioners to make sacrifices like fasting
Sacrifice is a critical part of Christianity. Jesus sacrificed himself for us. Sacrificing for others is the purest kind of life.
Fasting is tough. It's physically demanding. I met a senior citizen in my church one time, cute little old lady, and we were talking about fasting. And I asked her how long she had done it. And she said, "A week." And I said, "A WEEK?!
And she was embarrassed and said it was a long time ago and she might not remember it right. I tap out at 72 hours. The hunger gets to you, man.
Jesus fasted for 40 days and nights. You do it to make your prayers to God stronger.
I'm half-convinced this woman was an angel and she was doing her fast back in the middle ages.
Anyway, fasting is tough. I was kind of impressed with my 72 hours until I met this woman who didn't eat for a week. I don't know how masculine it is, but woman might be better at it than I am.
Fasting, standing for long periods of time through a mass, repeating prayers many times are versions of the "spiritual athleticism" that came from Ireland to England in the seventh century and did so much to convert the North. Cuthbert, the most beloved of the Northern English saints, would stand waist-deep in the North Sea while he recited the Psalter from memory, and when the hustled and bustle of the Holy Island of Lindisfarne got to be too much for him, he would retreat to Outer Farne to fast and pray.
Although I cannot speak from my own experience, I've been told by people I trust that spiritual athleticism even in its mundane forms, enables you to achieve a state of peace that is otherwise not consistently attainable. I have no reason to doubt this claim.
It's amusing, in a kind of sad and pathetic way, that the exact same people who will mock these kinds of exercises by Christians will turn around and extol the value of Eastern techniques for achieving similar states--yoga, meditation, etc.
Perhaps the heat map is real.
"many many men who have never worked in a job where death and or dismemberment is a daily possibility like to take credit for the jobs that other men do where they would never dare set foot in."
That's one way of looking at it. Another is that many men observe things concerning how the world works and report what they see. Which, for some reason, upsets some people.
Anything religious is a freakshow to the NYTimes. Stay in your lane NYT. Otherwise, the world might tip over and sink under the Hudson River.
To be able to reach back 2,000 years and touch the origins is a powerful feeling. Chekhov once wrote a great little story about that.
https://www.ibiblio.org/eldritch/ac/student.html
A slightly ambiguous ending?
The way the modern world works, Ron, is that most men can live and work in a cushy job just like just like women and they are the ones that are complaining about how life is much more tough for real men, LOL. It's another type of male cheerleader
"Wearing gilded robes and kissing gilded books is masculine? Having an imaginary friend that you follow rules for is masculine?"
As opposed to a atheism or leftism? Yes. But expecting consistency out of them is absurd. Sam Harris thinks he has relationship with millions across the globe due to imaginary "Blood ties" and a belief in a God he thinks is "imaginary".
I grew up attending both Catholic Mass and Orthodox Mass every Sunday. Both religions will save you. Catholic if you prefer the rational, Orthodox if you prefer the mystical.
How long before this becomes Russia, Russia, Russia?
St. Volodymyr Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral in Chicago has pews. They bought it from the Catholics.
"When I retired early from pastoral ministry in 2022 I hoped to become Orthodox. My wife and I became Catholic. Did not expect that."
LOL! How does that work, pray tell? ...Whoops, I got Catholiced?... You got Catholic in my Orthodoxy! You got Orthodoxy in my Catholic!... Didn't notice the difference until after the Confirmation? Wait, I'm Catholic now? But I thought this was an Orthodox church!... The difference in the crosses should have been the first hint.
imTay said...
“How many women roughnecks did you work with? Was that because women were barred from work they wanted to do, or are women somehow different?”
“In the grand scheme of things not many men are roughnecks not many men work in heavy construction, basic industry or even serve in the military. Yet, many many men who have never worked in a job where death and or dismemberment is a daily possibility like to take credit for the jobs that other men do where they would never dare set foot in.”
Right? I don’t seem Timmy doing “roughneck” type work. Or being in the military. I get incel vibes from him.
The Eastern Orthodox denominations use scripture as their wat to counsel members. Sounds simple, but is the key tradition that the church of the Western Roman Empire (we call Roman Catholic) conveniently forgot about.
They include the Coptics of Egypt, the Greek Orthodox and the Russian Orthodox.
It must have something going for it. Even George Costanza converted,
ffhttps://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fstf9b4ssfwc51.jpg
Post a Comment
Please use the comments forum to respond to the post. Don't fight with each other. Be substantive... or interesting... or funny. Comments should go up immediately... unless you're commenting on a post older than 2 days. Then you have to wait for us to moderate you through. It's also possible to get shunted into spam by the machine. We try to keep an eye on that and release the miscaught good stuff. We do delete some comments, but not for viewpoint... for bad faith.