Said Donald Trump, on Truth Social.
ADDED: What Elon had posted shortly before that: "If this insane spending bill passes, the America Party will be formed the next day. Our country needs an alternative to the Democrat-Republican uniparty so that the people actually have a VOICE."
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137 comments:
Brutal. But correct. Tesla was built on tax subsidies.
Could he be having trouble garnering support for the spending bill in Congress? Why bother with Doge if you aren’t going to push hard to implement the recommendations?
Elon Musk employs 83,000 Americans, who's total wages are about $7.5 billion dollars and they pay about $2.4 billion of income tax yearly.
Donald Trump just threatened to unemploy those 83,000 Americans just because he's mad at Elon Musk's opposition to US deficit spending.
Yes, if we don’t need those things we could save a lot.
New AlthouseTag: Former Democrats dress in "Conservative" clothing as they push alternative directions for change.
Trump, double-dealing Musk-rat, and Ronald Reagan were prior-generation Democrats who defected and pushed the party in a ~~moderate~~ semi-conservative direction.
I'm a Trump voter and I vastly prefer him to the alternative, but there is no escaping the fact that he can be a real asshole. This is moronic.
I wish they wouldn't engage like this publicly. It just gets the Dems fired up even more.
Not sure anyone here will believe but back in the pre-elon days, back when that one red roadster was buzzing around sonoma and scottsdale the company wasn’t having trouble raising interest from all the major vcs. I suppose it seems efficient and government will make a good ally so you take Pelosi’s dead factory and the unit subsidy but it comes at a cost- they never let you forget it because you’re tied to the politics forever. They kind of own you without owning you…
Incidentally, the US Department of Energy lent Tesla $465 million as seed money in 2010. That loan was repaid in 2013 and the United States government made $12 million on that investment. Accounting for administrative and other costs, the US made a profit of about $12 million on the loan interest.
Ford received $5.9 billion in this loan program.
Nissan received $1.45 billion
VPG (bankrupt) got $50 million
Fisker (bankrupt) received $529 million
General Motors received $2.5 billion
Stellantis got $7.5 billion
Rivian got $6.6 billion
No one can expect Trump to stay quiet while Elon runs his mouth like a lunatic. How can he gripe about removing subsidies when he just finished hair on fire ranting that the bill didn’t cut enough.
No one can argue that with respect to direct loans Tesla repaid in full and ahead of schedule. But you also can not argue that MASSIVE subsidies for EV purchases, wind/solar energy has not provided Tesla with gale force tailwinds. A $7500 rebate along with additional state rebates amount to i cannot even imagine the total cost of those incentives.
meanwhile...
"Amazon Is on the Cusp of Using More Robots Than Humans in Its Warehouses
The e-commerce giant now counts more than one million of the machines at its facilities"
https://www.wsj.com/tech/amazon-warehouse-robots-automation-942b814f?mod=hp_lead_pos7
this is WHY, raising the minimum wage, was SO Important!
when you subsidize something, you get More of it..
when you raise the PRICE of something, you get LESS of it
Dude1394 said...
No one can expect Trump to stay quiet while Elon runs his mouth like a lunatic. How can he gripe about removing subsidies when he just finished hair on fire ranting that the bill didn’t cut enough.
7/1/25, 7:25 AM
——————————- —
A Trump cultist complaining about someone “ranting like a lunatic”. The lack of awareness is stunning.
Tesla, of course, doesn't receive the $7,500 rebate. Americans receive that. For buying the cars that the US government wants us to buy.
@FormerLawClerk: "Incidentally, the US Department of Energy lent Tesla $465 million as seed money in 2010."
This was during a freespending blue era where Democrats threw money at all things green and the cowards "deemed passed" Obamacare. Former Democrat piglet Musk has suckled at the government teat for decades.
I first saw the original Tesla Roadster back then -- it was a tiny Lotus Elise 2-seat sports car with motors, batteries, and different plastic on the nose. This model had the potential selling a fraction of units versus the Mazda MX-5 Miata. Tesla might have turned into another Solyndra money pit back then.
GM, Ford, and Chysler had a ton of union employees, so Obama bailed them out at any cost and screwed the bondholders.
They could both be right. The bigger danger is the government printing money in amounts big enough to bankrupt us.
how much of Tesla's profits continue to come from selling carbon credits to other automakers?
Nov 22, 2024:Over 40% Of Tesla's Profit Comes From Selling Regulatory Credits
https://insideevs.com/news/742024/tesla-regulatory-sales-profit/
Personal snits are Trump's Achilles heel. He just can't let it go when hearing any personal critique. In this particular case, Musk was right to criticize the excesses built into the Big Beautiful Bill. And where would our country be without Musk's rocket launches and satellites? Not to mention where would Trump be without Musk's election support? Probably in 5 or 6 courthouses and condolences from President Kamala.
I continue to support Trump's presidency and most of his policies but this snit needs a timeout.
That threat supports Elon's suggestion that BBB is more like a white elephant.
Tesla might have turned into another Solyndra money pit back then.
Yup. Fun fact: Solyndra factory entrance abutted the CA Tesla factory entrance like two houses on a clu de sac…and Elon himself has claimed Tesla was hours away from going tu back when he was sleeping at the factory every night…
What are the subsidies that Elon receives?
1. Tesla purchasers get subsidies just like the purchasers of other electric cars fat.
2. SpaceX provides a service for which it is compensated.
Elon put a lot on the line for the country, not himself, and Trump does what he usually does with people who put their trust in him and craps all over him.
Before mass immigration, China, etc. the biggest threat to the Republic is the debt and nobody cares about it
"Former Democrat piglet Musk has suckled at the government teat for decades."
Making the US government $12 million on a loan in 3 years time doesn't constitute "suckling at the government's teat." The government, in fact, suckled at Elon Musk's teat.
And now you have that image in your head.
Musk is the most consequential American of this century.
If the Trump won't fund SpaceX, I'm sure the Chinese and Russians would be happy to.
@FormerLawClerk: See the other comments about $7.5K subsidies, tailwinds, and whatnot. Then, we can look at SpaceX and Starlink next. Nothing but government teats, teats, and teats.
"A $7500 rebate along with additional state rebates amount to i cannot even imagine the total cost of those incentives.
I did a little research on this question: The total value of these rebates to Tesla has been about $4.5 billion. This money wasn't paid to Tesla, by the way. It was paid to Americans who purchased electric vehicles from many manufacturers.
Value of 7,500 rebate to:
Ford - $1.8 billion
Nissan - $1.2 billion
Fisker - $150 million
GM - $1.5 billion
Stellantis - $1 billion
Rivian - $300 million
Drops in the proverbial bucket when you consider that DOGE found $160 billion in waste, fraud and abuse in just 3 months of looking at US spending before they were summarily removed from the building.
Donald Trump is just wrong to have his focus here and this spat will end up hurting Trump far worse than it would hurt Elon Musk. It's tactically stupid and strategically a major blunder on Trump's part.
... and this is what the women are needed for.
Adjudicating the boys' fights: "He hit me first." ... "You started it!"... "No, you did!"
When you get done with the Musk/Trump squabbles MamaAnn, do Israel/Palestine? If you women don't civilize the fellas and do your biological duty, who will??? ;-)
He's right, you know.
Elon is getting from two sides:
1. The libs now hate Tesla because of Doge.
2. Losing the EV tax credit.
Short Tesla.
Eh. More posturing, maybe a feint. Elon isn't going to South Africa, given its current state. Besides, he already got out of DOGE.
Elon's not wrong...
It seems like DJT is complaining about the wrong person. He should be looking at the Senate Parliamentarian.
U.S. Senate fails to remove migrants from Medicaid after the Parliamentarian changed the vote requirement to 60 votes from 51 at the last minute.
See the other comments about $7.5K subsidies, tailwinds, and whatnot. Then, we can look at SpaceX and Starlink next. Nothing but government teats, teats, and teats.
As has been noted repeatedly, Tesla didn't receive any subsidies from the $7,500 rebate program; and as far as tailwinds it should be noted that all manufacturers were included in the $7,500 rebate program. So Tesla had no tailwind applied because of this and was not provided any competitive advantage. The other carmakers would never have allowed that.
I am researching US "subsidies" to SpaceX and Starlink and will report findings later on today in this thread.
Trump is just WRONG about Musk. Elon Musk, and his companies, are net tax PAYERS to the US government and do not represent ANY drain on US government resources. They aren't "subsidized" in any way. (US taxpayers are subsidized in buying electric vehicles from many manufacturers and this has nothing to do with Musk.)
Trump is wrong to attack this US employer and it sort of makes sense that most other US manufacturers have fled this country precisely because of this type of government meddling and harassment.
OT: "U.S. Senate fails to remove illegal aliens from Medicaid."
FTFY
I mostly agree with both.
This shit is all on purpose, this is deliberate, scripted, planned- out in advance, drama to keep stupid people entertained and tuned in for the next exciting adventure coming soon to a screen near you.
Next move will be for those on the left to suddenly love subsidies for space exploration. Anything to piss off Trump so they will demand that we send a rocket ship to Mars asap.
I’d be a supporter of a new party that supported responsible levels of government spending. We don’t have one at the moment…
hawkeyedjb said, "They could both be right. The bigger danger is the government printing money in amounts big enough to bankrupt us."
That and Political Junkie, same. The past two months has shown the uniparty's presence is nowhere close to exiled.
Everyone is still addicted to money we don't have.
I fault both Elon and DJT for not mixing DOGE/government cutting/smart sizing with no tax cuts and tax increases on the wealthy. Elon and DJT could push "animal spirts" for the business class and us moving to a balanced budget. Instead, they functioned like a normal country club repubican and cut taxes with trillions in debt and deficit.
Still 100% glad I voted 2024 DJT, but this is the one area where I am disappointed.
"U.S. Senate fails to remove migrants from Medicaid after the Parliamentarian changed the vote requirement to 60 votes from 51 at the last minute."
Here I'll rewrite this to make it more truthful : "Thune and Senate Republicans stop Trump move to keep illegal aliens from receiving Government benefits".
There's no requirement for Thune to listen to the "parlimetarian" and force this admendment to pass with 60 votes. And Thune could fire the Democrat "Parlimetarian" tommorrow, and replace her with one of his choice.
The filibuster operates this way. When the R's have a majority they use the 60 vote requirement to stop anything MAGA or social conservatives want. "Hey what could we do? We tried".
When the D's have the majority and want to pass something they just deem it "Not subject to a filibuster". Or they get 10 RINOs to vote for it.
People pick fights with Trump every day. One would think those tossing hand grenades at Trump should expect return fire, in spades. You’re a fool to think otherwise.
Musk has good for the US and vice versa. But he shoots from the lip just like Trump. Neither will change. Accept it and move on.
He's brilliant and very hardworking but he's already proved to have inferior political instincts to Trump. We have a two-party system that crowds out the thirds. Their best hope is play spoiler like happened in '92 and 2000. Musk's only hope is to supplant the Democrat party as the second party in our system. But they won't vote for him now. Or support SpaceX or Tesla or X.
Summation: Musk will stick with his five day jobs and forego the America Party dream.
The D's came within 1 vote of getting rid of the filibuster. They wanted to get rid of it completely in Jan 2021-Jan 2023 Congress. They weren't joking either. It was not Kubuki theater.
They will get rid of it the next time the have the votes and the Presidency. But the R's? The Republican Senate repaid Schumer for trying to get rid of the filibuster , by giving the Democrat minority the power to filibuster.
See how it works? The Senate R's want the D's do able to filibuster when they have the majority. Even though the D's dont' return the favor. That's because the Senate R's - are really the controlled opposition.
Musk's only hope is to supplant the Democrat party as the second party in our system.
I believe Musk will fund the startup of a third political party in the United States. This will split the Republican vote and the Republican Party will go the way of the Whigs. Musk will then work to reform Democrats (seeing as how he was unable to reform Republicans.)
History will not look kindly on Donald Trump for destroying the Republican party.
They’re all on the same side when it comes to budgets- the goal is not to represent the interests of their constituents but to keep Washington moving. Dole proudly admitted it back then but he probably learned it from his predecessors…
Elon is used to having his way in his companies but politics doesn’t work that way. One man can’t dictate everything in a reconciliation bill. Each congresscritter wants to be sure their vote gains something they can run on in their next campaign. Plus, this isn’t a budget bill. That said, I don’t like this feuding in public. But, it is transparent!
As for Musk - he's being stupid. He's basically pushing losertarianism. Cut the Federal Government. Lower taxes on the Rich. Keep social liberalism and open borders.
A total loser. Unless you're one of the wealthy 5 percent, there's no reason to vote for it. Probably 1 percent of the population will vote 3rd party because they want "Smaller Government".
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to start a 3rd party and split the vote that elected Trump and kept Hillary and Kamala out of the WH.
"keep Washington moving"
That's it. Right there. Perhaps that's the problem, maybe? Has anyone ever thought of shutting the whole thing down for a while?
Believe me, they'll do less damage.
Musk should be attacking Thune for supporting medicare for illegal aliens and sabotaging the other MAGA provisions in the bill. Instead, he's all upset because it spends too much money.
Dumb.
Could Elon be making an enemy of my enemy move? Get dems to pass the bill just so Musk will start a 3rd party and put a thumb in president Trump's eye.
Could this just be kabuki?
John Henry
View this little tempest through the lens of the professional wrestling spectacle. Elon is playing the heel. This will help Trump get the BBB passed. Trump's biggest problem at the moment are the Republicans in the Senate. The prospect pf a new third political party presents a bigger risk to Republicans seeking re-election.
Elon doesn't care about Tesla and subsidies - he's focused on getting to Mars. Everything else is in service of that.
Trump's bombast is always for effect, never without purpose.
FLC blathered the following: “I believe Musk will fund the startup of a third political party in the United States. This will split the Republican vote and the Republican Party will go the way of the Whigs. Musk will then work to reform Democrats (seeing as how he was unable to reform Republicans.)
History will not look kindly on Donald Trump for destroying the Republican party.”
You’ve made some stooopid comments in the past FLC, but this one is worthy of Ripley. Trump destroyed the R party? The party of the Bushees, Boehner, McConnell? It’s what the majority of middle America wanted and voted for. That would be rebuilding the party of the great Ronald Reagan.
Yes congress is fu*cked up and can’t do anything but vote itself money. It’s been that way since 1820. So let’s have fringe people screech about it. The only way to get ahead is to take small steps to improve direction and consolidate more seats and power.
This I want it all now to salve my low attention span is only a way to lose. Yes we want it all and we won’t get it now so let’s be big losers, shur. Just pass the damned bill and don’t make your “I’m a hero for wanting everything” useless statement.
Bob Boyd at 810 - Nice post there.
“Could this just be kabuki?”
That is my thought too. I find it hard to believe that Elon could be that stupid. I think one goal is to make democrats feel confused because they are supposed to hate him as a demon but now they want to love him for hating Trump. There is never too much drama. There is no bad publicity.
@FormerLawClerk: "I am researching US "subsidies" to SpaceX and Starlink and will report findings later on today in this thread."
I wish you the best of luck breaking open the classified DoD and Intelligence Community "Black budget" -- this is expressly who is most interested in all of Musk's space ventures. These folks may have also convinced Musk to go ahead with the Twitter purchase too. Praetorians and Machiavellians all.
See In-Q-Tel and SpaceX in 2017, but also be aware that they ain't gonna talk about a lot of stuff...
https://helenaglass.net/2023/01/25/cia-hedge-fund-q-in-tel-funded-elon-musk/
To truly win at politics takes hard work and discipline over a decade. Flashy wins are ok, but ephemeral. You build a reliable team and play the long game. All else is fluff for teenage minds of all ages.
The money obviously goes to Tesla. It subsidizes the purchase price of their automobiles. To claim otherwise would be like saying student loan funds don't go to colleges and universities.
Look at crooked Act Blue, look at government funded ngo’s that pay your friends to be full time party hacks. That is the discipline that wins. But being honest instead of crooked is the long term winner.
I've long thought that there would be a place for a third party. But not a regular party. Maybe not even a party at all in the legal sense.
As others have mentioned, it splits the vote, prevents anyone getting a majority and generally screws things up unless it can replace one of the 2 majors.
But how about a party that doesn't, initially at least, run its own candidates? It develops a platform, say cut govt size and spending.
Then it find rep and dem candidates that will carry out that agenda at all levels. If there isn't one, it sits that race out.
Sort of like what the TEA party tried. If not legally a "party" it might have more freedom to act. But I'll leave the legities to others.
John Henry
Political junkie,
How do you "increase taxes" on the wealthy?
There are currently no, none, zip, zero federal taxes on wealth. Nor can there be absent an Amendment.
Are you advocating an amendment?
John Henry
Trump knows what he's doing. (a) Engaging in this kind of public feud with people has a deterrent effect on some people, for sure. It cows a lot of republican pols into being very careful about appearing to defy him. (b) Trump's supporters see this and either find it entertaining/gratifying, or tsk-tsk it, while continuing to support him and his policies. (c) It doesn't create any new or different line of attack for his enemies to use against him. Trump's outrageousness and lack of presidential decorum is already quite well documented. It's already priced into everyone's assessment of him.
Gates, buffet, Bezos, Musk, famously at the top of the wealth heap at various times had very little income. Bezos lived on $89m/yr at Amazon. Buffet "earned" $150m at BH Musk has had zero income most years though he did pay something like $45bn in income taxes a couple years ago.
They don't need taxable income.
Take $5bn out, pay taxes and you still have $2-3 bn left. Put it under the mattress and you can pull $10-15mm out every year for the rest of your life for non-taxable walking around money.
John Henry
For the innumerate, easily confused and non-American , m= 1,000 in American
As in Bezos had $89,000/yr income
John Henry
"Trump destroyed the R party? The party of the Bushees, Boehner, McConnell ..."
History however will lay the blame on Trump. However inappropriate that might be, seeing as how all the history books are written by Democrat hacks.
Kayfabe
Hell hath no fury...
Musk is 100% correct on this issue. This bill is a disaster
If your goal is to cut spending, you don’t need to raise the debt ceiling by 5 trillion dollars.
Trump, as usual, is a tiny vindictive asshat and is using the government to target people who disagree with him.
For those wondering, SpaceX has received about $2.3 billion in "subsidies" (grants, non-payback gifts, payments to do certain things):
* $885 million to provide rural internet (the cable companies got FAR more than SpaceX did).
* $15 million from Texas to create a rocket launch facility
* About $2 billion from other states for SpaceX operations that occur there.
Not a lot, in other words. More than paid back by DOGE savings.
@FormerLawClerk: Don't keep your head in the sand. See above regarding the classified black budget. SpaceX and Starlink are exactly what the US military ordered.
While I understand that the biggest threat to Elon Musk is anything that puts barriers between him and his dream of humans on Mars; threatening to cut off SpaceX from the US space launch market simply isn’t the flex Trump thinks it is. Trump’s spending only gets worse if SpaceX is cut out. Meanwhile, Elon Musk can move anywhere in the world to a country that would love to have his space business. It will be a big setback to Musk’s schedule, but a real boon to whatever country accepts him.
talk is cheap, Elon's big contribution was the registration and transport, to key states, and one might look at the meeting at Madison Square Gardens as a blood oath, so if he picks a slate of candidates and properly funds them well that's a different story,
but Possums don't see it that way, neither does the Parliamentarian, who has the power of the Lady of the Lake,
John Henry at 852. You are right in your point, but a bit too clever.
We have a progressive income tax. I think the upper brackets should increase, some big increases on millions of dollars of incomes. Think trial lawyers, entertainers, and professional athletes.
We live in a Gilded Age. MAGA is not mostly not high income. MAGA is dominated by working class, and middle class.Good people.
I am not for a wealth tax, but open to moving the gift and estate taxes rules much lower, closer to where they were pre W 2001 changes.
Yes X had a multiplying effect, in the way it's managed, looked at Blue Menagerie at the way it would work now,
like those memes, of course you are for a wealth tax, be honest,
narciso: "the Parliamentarian, who has the power of the Lady of the Lake,"
Strange women lying alongside the Potomac distributing points of order is no basis for a system of government!
RR
JSM
Third party efforts are always gifts to Dems. Trump is a##hole. Musk is right about the budget but no one really cares, yet: in the short run, vote buying wins out. Nothing will change until you get the public to be more serious--serious enough that Dems can't outbid GOP on giveaways. Good luck, Elon!
elon spelled out exactly where one had to cut, but they are unwilling to do so, for whatever reason,
"FormerLawClerk said...
Tesla, of course, doesn't receive the $7,500 rebate. Americans receive that. For buying the cars that the US government wants us to buy."
It's not a rebate. It's a tax credit.
it really is that absurd, of course she enabled the fraud of the "Inflation Reduction Act,' so she is suspect,
we understand much of these expenditures are about support services, of course NASA gained their monopoly because of Von Braun's crew largely, TDYed from the Army, and hasn't given it back
as is the Intelligence Corporate Sysgy that arose out of the Cold War, yet never withered away,
I understand both parts of the argument, although the other side will still find a way to grift with the largest part of the budget,
The Parliamentarian serves at the pleasure of the Majority Leader. The present Senate Parliamentarian was appointed in 2012 by the previous Senate Majority Leader, Mr. Harry Reid, and has not been replaced by the current Majority Leader, Republican John Thune? The past 5 Parliamentarians, back to 1981, were all appointed by Democrat Majority Leaders.
You can't even get Congress to agree to freeze the spending on non-entitlements- not even Republicans do this when in power. Nothing will change until bond investors demand it and even then the Fed will act to force rates back down by monetizing the debt. Like it or not, we are on a runaway train.
which devalues the currency, thats the game we've been playing since 2008
Lets get this over already. The party of Fiscal responsibility is a joke and going forward republicans own this bill. No big deal if they lose senate or house etc and put a cap on trump for last 2 years as a non entity.Trump will have gotten what he wants for his pals and he can spend last two years expanding the White House Shopping center we he can sell more goods. Lets move on with this drama.Repubs are definitely not the fiscal responsible party for all to see. Hope your grandma aint one they put on the street but if they do OH WELL ...
They are both right.
…careful- it’s a spending problem, not a revenue problem…
DD45 - Get a job. Or is this your job?
Man, what!?!?!? You mean that Doge isn’t really a cost cutting tool and is actually for political theater purposes only!?!?!? Whose gonna tell Big Balls?
AMDG said...
Musk is the most consequential American of this century.
Musk would be dead or in jail if it wasn’t for Trump.
So Musk is in second place.
Tesla, of course, doesn't receive the $7,500 rebate. Americans receive that. For buying the cars that the US government wants us to buy."
It's not a rebate. It's a tax credit.
Actually, it is a massive transfer of wealth from the average American to the rich elites who drive Tesla's.
Paying a company for a good or service is not a subsidy. Tesla did get subsidies in the form of tax credits, the same as other electric vehicle companies. SpaceX is hired by the government and civil customers to provide launch services, including crews and supplies to the ISS, as well as satellite communications (Starlink and StarShield).
I forgot to add, SpaceX launches are vastly less expensive than those offered by other companies and they're more responsive to customer needs. When the Space Force needed a GPS satellite launched in a hurry, SpaceX delivered in just a few months. That included the actual checkout and preparation of the satellite by Lockheed. Normally, that takes about 2 years. Before SpaceX, ULA had a monopoly on government launches. They cost far more, and they got an extra billion dollars a year "just because".
Achilles: "Musk would be dead or in jail if it wasn’t for Trump"
Shouldn't that be the other way around?
RLTW
JSM
Can two people be right at the same time in a disagreement? Well, here's a great example.
You’ve heard of compound interest. Now comes FLC with a compound error.
First he says, with conviction, that Trump destroyed the R party. I respond that party, the party of Bush, McConnell, and Boehner, needed to be destroyed and rebuild in the spirit of Ronaldus Magnus. He later asserts: No matter, Trump will get blamed anyway, as history is written by the Dems.
How does one argue with that?
MAGA are going to vote for Trump's terrible megabill. But they would like a little credit for pretending they weren't going to for a few days. 🤣
The only thing a Musk third party will do is put a Dem in the White House. We've been here before.
Third parties need to get their candidates elected to dog catcher, then school board, then city council, then mayor, then governor and then try for a national position. But, no, they go straight for the brass ring. Failure every time.
Something is going to get signed on July 4, 2025. Even if it upsets Elon a great deal, it will not result in a viable third party. The political landscape is too entrenched.
Until the US approaches actual bankruptcy, there will be no change.
Musk's primary challenge is the lack of public support for addressing the deficit, as he knows, having falsely claimed that DOGE could achieve this goal.
Musk's main problem is that he doesn't have the guts to defy Trump. Musk owns Twitter, which is a major hub of conservative media at this point. Conservative media is a major power within the Republican Party.
"As has been noted repeatedly, Tesla didn't receive any subsidies from the $7,500 rebate program"
And it is wrong. Even though the checks go to the car buyers, Tesla and the other EV producers benefit by being able to sell more cars at a higher price.
These guys don’t need the leftmediaswine. They have each other.
Junkie,
Tax rates on high incomes certainly could be increased. (whether it's a good idea is another issue)
You were spec talking about wealth in your original comment
That is what I was addressing.
Many, and probably most smart, wealthy people have relatively low income. Are you proposing that wealthy people should pay a higher tax rate than non-wealthy people on the same income? I doubt that would be legal.
If you want to talk about taxing wealth pleas explain how. Only way I can see requires an amendment
"I said 'Go to sleep!"
The only person in the Senate making a vote on priciple is Rand Paul. Collins (I assuming she did vote no on the bill that just passed) was given permission to vote no in a ploy to save her seat in blue Maine (she is probably toast regardless- she only won in 2020 because Trump dragged her ass across the finish line even though he lost the state). Tillis was the same in 2020 and was going for the same thing as Collins but then got his feelings hurt and decided to go home after his term is up.
@achilles I'd love for some Trump supporter to offer up the "conservative" case for "Trump Accounts."
https://taxfoundation.org/blog/trump-accounts-could-be-better/
What will stop the Dems from turning a $1000 freebie into a $25,000 freebie? (Or $25,000 if you are a descendant of slaves or your parents were arrested by ICE.) Do you think for second AOC and her ilk will be satisfied with a meager $1000 to every baby? Do you think Republicans will be in charge forever? What do you think the end game is with the Trump Accounts? DJT looks like the most useful idiot in human history. Big Beautiful Marxism!
I finally had enough of liberty internet a couple months ago. I was going to sign up for starlink but found it is online available in western pr at present.
Someone told me about cellular internet from T-Mobile
I'm a phone customer and very happy so checked it out. As a customer the box was free. About the size of my cable modem. Powered by a usb-c cord. 2 ethernet ports plus wifi. I'm using them for TV and desktop connection
Wi-Fi is great too
I am supposed to get 200 MB, I ve never gotten less than 400,typically 600 or so, occasionally as much as 2.6gb.
Not tied to a location, I could use it in my car or carry it when traveling.
So about half the cost of starlink, a little smaller and doesn't need to see the sky.
Seems like a pretty good option if you are tired of Comcast, liberty et Al.
This is not a mobile Hotspot or phone internet. I have that but to speed is 10-20mb.
John Henry
I think the Secretary of Defense, the NASA Administrator, and the head of the National Reconnaissance Office are going to have a meeting with the President and explain to him just how much money the country is saving using SpaceX vs the legacy launch companies like ULA.
They are both keeping each other out of jail for the next 4 years. Trump would be in jail right now if he hadn't won in November and the DoJ would probably have already indicted Musk on something to force him to cough up Twitter.
The course of true love never did run smooth.
I don't have anything against Elon, but should we really be subsidizing something that's going to require that we build or rebuild our infrastructure? Building the charging stations and rebuilding the bridges is already a subsidy for EVs.
I think that Elon was totally wrong (and letting his ego control him) when he said that Trump wouldn't have won without him. I personally think that he dragged Trump down a little in popularity.
If Elon actually tries to start this American party, he'll get a swift reality check about how much people don't really like him.
Also, Elon should know by know that, when it comes to Trump, if you mess with the bull, you get the horns.
"Also, Elon should know by know that, when it comes to Trump, if you mess with the bull, you get the horns."
What is Trump electoral record? Hershel Walker, the Pedo Guy, Dr. Oz. A, long, long list of losers. As a party head Trump's record is about as bad as it gets.
I think Elon could easily kick his ass here. Easily.
“I think Elon could easily kick his ass here. Easily.”
Thanks for elevating teh discussion, DeeDee.
Is anybody going to point out that most of the "spending" in the BBB is simply keeping the tax cuts which were enacted in 2017 in place? And that if the BBB (or something similar) doesn't get passed everybody's tax bill is going to go way up when those tax cuts expire? (believe the figure is something like $2.6 Trillion).
I do not understand why the Republicans (and Trump) aren't banging this drum very loudly.
“Who’s gonna tell Big Balls?”
You are, Hag. You’ve always been game for a challenge to your oral cavity. Now get steepin’!
DDD--I believe that Trump's electoral record is that he won two Presidential Elections (perhaps three, but whatever...). Including the most recent.
How did your candidates do?
If you want to fault ANYONE, it has to be Musk. He won't let anything go, at all. Accused Trump of being a pedophile for goodness sakes. I don't see trump accusing anything personal about Elon, just trying to figure out what the **** is wrong with him. Seriously, almost every acquaintance he has ever had, has been pushed away almost the same way by musk.
Elon is on record saying he does not want subsidies.
Musk understands we cannot keep borrowing money into the abyss. our debt is unsustainable.
BTW- the democrats are lying about what this legislation. big surprise.
Musk really isn't doing himself any favors by going off like this.
I like them both, a lot. We are lucky to have them, and especially lucky when they are on the same team. They are also both correct. We spend too much, much of it is corruption, this bill is messy, necessary, and we have no alternative at this point. This is the best we can get for now. Time to get to work on the future... together.
John Henry at 1216. I am not for a wealth tax as I stated in post at 936.
I prefer a messy side - where people disagree and argue.
the left demand 100% loyalty - or you get a bullet.
ot:
woot^
BREAKING: @Penn
to APOLOGIZE for allowing male swimmer Lia Thomas to invade the women's team.
The University will also be adopting definitions for male and female consistent with biological sex, strip all records/titles from Thomas and return them to female swimmers, and issue personal apologies to all female swimmers who were affected.
GENDER IDEOLOGY IS ALL COMING CRUMBLING DOWN
“ Many, and probably most smart, wealthy people have relatively low income.”
What should be done regarding the rich is to make undocumented private loans illegal. Especially if you are a politician. There is tremendous opportunity for outright legal fraud in this as we saw with the Beiden’s.
To tax the rich you need to tax corporations more, but then you damage the economy that supports working people. So you just have to say that having a good economy is better than making the rich pay. As unfair as you can make that sound. But people have always killed the golden goose.
Corporate taxes are pass thru taxes, paid for by workers, customers and shareholders of many income levels, including pensioners and 401k holders…
"No more Rocket launches, Satellites..."
Might want to ask the Sec Def (and other cabinet members) about this.
Hyperbole? Sure. But stupid hyperbole.
Individuals create wealth. Governments consume wealth and create none of their own.
Junkie
At 8:02 you advocated "tax increases on the wealthy."
Certainly sounds like you are advocating a wealth tax
Or you don't understand the difference between wealth and income and that you can have either without the other.
Most years Elon has $0 income yet he is still wealthy. What do you think would be a fair tax in those years?
Actors and athletes often seem to spend their high incomes faster than they get it. So high incomes but no wealth.
Learn the difference
John Henry
> make undocumented private loans illegal
Wait, WHAAAAAT??????????
I think its not too early to call out Elon Musk as a world-historical figure. He has taken a major chunk out of the gravity well problem, as far as making humanity a spacefaring species. The 1960s-70s era ideas of Gerard O'Neill and Freeman Dyson are much closer to reality now. For what humanity CAN do now, technically (not practical, but possible), the recent SF TV series "The Expanse" is a pretty decent guide (leaving out the aliens and trans dimensional travel). We are in a Science Fiction world now.
Historic parallels would be, perhaps, Prince Henry the Navigator's role in the European "explosion" across the globe, which has dominated the last 500 years of human history. 50 years after Prince Henry died Alfonso de Albuquerque took 1000 European soldiers to the other side of the planet and captured Malacca, then the greatest city of SE Asia, with immense booty. Invaders from outer space would not have been more disconcerting. And on and on, until Europeans had conquered pretty much everything. Only recently have the Europeans been relaxing their grip, but in the meantime their influence has deeply changed all other peoples.
That's the scale on which we have to view Musk. He is a man due consideration on the largest human scale.
Trump is in his own way a "great man" of history, for god or ill is still too early to say. But he does not play in the same spheres (little joke there) as Musk.
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