Althouse: "I have ideas on what to do but I haven’t made a final—I like to make the final decision one second before it’s due."

June 18, 2025

"I have ideas on what to do but I haven’t made a final—I like to make the final decision one second before it’s due."

Said President Trump.

Quoted in "Trump Privately Approved of Attack Plans for Iran but Has Withheld Final Order/The president is hoping that threatening to join Israel’s strikes will lead Tehran to abandon its nuclear program" (Wall Street Journal).

111 comments:

Jaq said...: "The only modern president to never start a war" —Me, so many times here.; 6/18/25, 5:50 PM
Dave Begley said...: Not going to happen. The mullahs hate Jews more than the love their own people.; 6/18/25, 5:53 PM
Original Mike said...: ""The only modern president to never start a war" (emphasis added)

This war has been going on a long time.; 6/18/25, 5:54 PM
Kakistocracy said...: I am glad Trump is making this decision. He is always weighing the odds of how much of it will blow back on him.

Something folks should learn about war:

The enemy always gets a vote.

If you’re pro-Iran strikes, okay--fine.

If you’re anti-Iran strikes, okay--fine

Don’t be dishonest with your followers — or yourself — and pretend like dropping multiple 30,000lb bombs is somehow not an act of war.; 6/18/25, 5:56 PM
RideSpaceMountain said...: Patience is good. A virtue even. It's also good Trump isn't running for reelection, because the moment an American bomb is pickled by an American finger in an American warplane in pursuit of this farce he will have lost my vote and the votes of millions of others too.

I'd be interested in hear JD's take and that of other 2026 and 2028 congressional and presidential candidates on this little charade...it will definitely affect my vote.

I hope sanity - on all sides - prevails though my gut tells me otherwise.; 6/18/25, 5:58 PM
Kakistocracy said...: You can just feel the cognitive dissonance Trump is wrestling with. He has to make a decision that is bound to fracture his MAGA base. IMO, he will hold out as long as possible, hoping for lightning in a bottle. Then at the 11th hour, he’ll act impulsively and claim victory, regardless of his decision.; 6/18/25, 5:58 PM
Eva Marie said...: “The mullahs hate Jews more than they love their own people.”
Here’s hoping they love their own lives more than they hate the Jews.; 6/18/25, 6:01 PM
Jaq said...: Trump is a solved problem for the neocons. This will get him to do what they want and to self immolate his presidency, all in one go.; 6/18/25, 6:03 PM
Jaq said...: Kakistocracy is right. Here is the base, half baying for Muslim blood, and the other half horrified that he is no better than Hillary would have been.; 6/18/25, 6:04 PM
Iman said...: A once in a lifetime opportunity.; 6/18/25, 6:04 PM
RideSpaceMountain said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/18/25, 6:09 PM
john mosby said...: It's a bit of a false dichotomy to say that Trump can only follow the neocons or the MAGA isolationists. Most MAGA people agreed with Trump that the Iraq occupation was a mistake, but they also agreed with him on killing General Soleimani. Similarly, they would agree with one bomb, one time, to destroy the Iranian nuke plant, as long as it's not part of some invasion/occupation.

There's a huge folk memory among MAGA of all the humiliating things Iran has done to us since 1979. Payback would not alienate anyone in a red hat.

JSM; 6/18/25, 6:10 PM
RideSpaceMountain said...: Trump's right to let this pressure cooker cool a bit, far fewer are with him on these 'plans' than he thinks.; 6/18/25, 6:12 PM
FormerLawClerk said...: Trump is actually locked into a decision now. Game theory dictates that once he says he is contemplating joining Israel in the destruction of Iran he has two choices:

Do so, or don't.

If he doesn't, then he's sending the message to Iran that he is weak and won't attack, no matter what Iran does. If they are currently threatening him with some sort of nuclear threat, then they will be emboldened if he backs down. So he cannot back down.

And remember ... Iran is still in possession of US soil that 8 American soldiers died for: The US Embassy in Tehran. That is American soil and they are occupying America in their continued possession of OUR land.

So, Trump has either backed himself, or Israel has backed him, into a corner from which there is only one escape: Attack.; 6/18/25, 6:15 PM
Jamie said...: There's a huge folk memory ... of all the humiliating things Iran has done to us since 1979.

As well as a general sense that Iran has been a loose cannon on a rocky sea for decades, I think. So far it hasn't smashed into the hull hard enough to sink the ship, but the wave big enough to accomplish that is entirely unpredictable.

Let me note that I am using nothing but common sense to interpret the phrase "loose cannon" in my metaphor - I have eschewed etymological research because I just feel as if I must be right.; 6/18/25, 6:17 PM
D.D. Driver said...: I'm sure when we topple the Iranian regime freedom and democracy will flourish just as they have in Afghanistan and Iraq. It will make America GREAT too!; 6/18/25, 6:19 PM
RideSpaceMountain said...: C'mon let's be real, there is no 'folk memory' for anybody who was born after 1970. No one under 55 gives a crap about this ancient blood feud, and a significant number of those couldn't find Iran on a map.

Half of America has no living memory of this relic of the Cold War, and a large part of the other half will be underground in 30-40 years.; 6/18/25, 6:23 PM
tcrosse said...: There's a certain element that will figure out a way to hate Trump no matter what he chooses to do.; 6/18/25, 6:24 PM
Dave Begley said...: One thing I think people are missing about Iran and that is that there is a huge ex-pat community in the US. Lots of smart Iranians, including my DIL. She has a Masters in Computer Science from USC.

The Iranians - unlike Iraq and Afghanistan - had a vibrant economy with plenty of Western liberal values. The fundamentalists Islamists who have run Iran for the last 50 years have screwed things up for the vast majority.

So, in my view, some smart and Westernized Iranians could take over and have elections. The ex-pats could invest in the new Iran. My daughter-in-law's Uncle Reza could open up some appliance stores in Tehran. He could call it, "Nebraska Furniture Mart."

I asked Uncle Reza why he moved to LA. "John Wayne."; 6/18/25, 6:27 PM
DINKY DAU 45 said...: Republican platform in 2024 is whatever trump says it is.No spine in Congress AUMF BOMBS AWAY! NO NEW WARS HERE(it is new with America doing the bombing even though its been going on since the 1500's or so); 6/18/25, 6:27 PM
Dave Begley said...: Iran issued a threat the other day, "Something that the world will talk about for a long time."

My fear is that it is a dirty bomb.

That's why the IDF needs to kill the mullahs and Trump needs to drop the bunker busters.

Report that the Iranian presidential jet and other government aircraft landed in Oman. N.B. not in UAE, Quatar, KSA etc.; 6/18/25, 6:30 PM
DINKY DAU 45 said...: trump using the MADMAN theory OF ONLY i KNOW UNTIL THE LAST SECOND IS ABSURD AS HE IS. He has no plan, maybe the CONCEPT of a plan he'll tell you later and if it dont work theres always blame Sleepy Joe whom he has now taking over the reins of a the sleeper in chief. Advisors who are clueless advising the one wo is clueless is just brilliant just like those 90 deals in 90 days.Repubs cower but dont say diddly might lose their cushion. SAD Boy Dinky ON A ROLL now!! Beacoup Dinky Dau him love you long time...; 6/18/25, 6:34 PM
RideSpaceMountain said...: The funniest thing is that what everyone has said for the longest time about "it not mattering who you vote for, they always end being John McCain" is absolutely true.

If Hillary had won we get McCain
If Kamala had won we'd get McCain
If Joe had managed to sleepwalk his way to a 2nd term, McCain
If it had been DeSantis, McCain again
And now Donald Trump is John McCain

If you ever wanted proof of how little it matters who you vote for and that the MIC/NIC foreverwar deep state exists, it's staring you in the face with John McCain's decaying eye sockets. Ironic isn't it?; 6/18/25, 6:38 PM
Skeptical Voter said...: Dinky you make a decision when you need to--and not before. Of course you can make the decision too late--but better too late than too early. The reality is that a lot of things that make a person worried don't ever happen at all. And if they don't happen, you don't have to decide.; 6/18/25, 6:41 PM
Peachy said...: Abandon the theocracy.; 6/18/25, 6:42 PM
Krumhorn said...: Something must be done about Fordow. This is a unique moment in time in which to get it done. Other than a B-2 strike, I don't know what else is required. The Israelis have air superiority and the target is well-known. It should be blown to Allah and the virgins. Get in; get out. Any talk of regime change should be left entirely to Iranians to accomplish. I doubt very much that any measurable number of Trump voters will jump ship over this.

- Krumhorn; 6/18/25, 6:55 PM
Leland said...: I'm not sure Israel needs anything more than defensive support, and less of that as each day goes by. US getting more involved just complicates the air space.; 6/18/25, 6:55 PM
john mosby said...: RSM: "C'mon let's be real, there is no 'folk memory' "

C'mon let's be real, you and I are both veterans. Sailors remember the Gulf operations of the 80s. Marines remember the Beirut barracks bombings. Soldiers remember the Iranians backing up Mookie Sadr and generally wreaking havoc with EFP mines, while administrations of both parties gave the Fort Riley Salute. Trump went from not recognizing Soleimani's name in a campaign gotcha interview to shredding his nametag, five years ago. And there was much rejoicing, five years ago.

Even if you stick to people above 50: VN veterans can analogize to how they weren't allowed to win - how Nixon was castigated for "expanding the war" when he just made common-sense strategic decisions to attack VC/NVA logistics in Cambodia and Laos. All people that age remember the hostage crisis as the cherry on top of the sundae of humiliations of the 70s, which Biden managed to echo almost verbatim: stagflation, high gas prices, etc.

Veterans and their families make up a big chunk of MAGA (and of the country as a whole - about 5% of the total population are veterans; throw in 2 parents, a spouse, and a kid for each one, and you've got a quarter of the population made up of veteran families). Oldies make up a big chunk of the people who actually vote.

Beyond mere payback, the more thoughtful critics of the Iraq occupation frequently say that we spent blood and treasure to give Iran a massive Shiite client state. Bringing down the mullahs is a cheap way to rectify that mistake. As long as Trump doesn't try to do nationbuilding over there, his base is not going to rebel on him.

JSM; 6/18/25, 7:00 PM
Disparity of Cult said...: Good thoughts, good words, and good deeds...; 6/18/25, 7:00 PM
RideSpaceMountain said...: Well said Leland. The IAF supposedly has total air dominance, probably even enough to physically put Sayaret Matkal and other SOF on the ground at - and in - Fordow.

No need for us to straighten what Israel has made crooked, she's a big girl now. She's almost 80 and still kickin' ass!; 6/18/25, 7:05 PM
bagoh20 said...: I think people underestimate Trump because they believe he is the caricature they have created for themselves. This is not complicated. Trump like many has long believed there are few outcomes worse than Iran becoming a nuclear power. He can prevent that, and feels he must for obvious reasons. He's simply waiting to see if it takes ending it via munitions we've spent years developing for just such a purpose, or will Iran give it up. I doubt they will. What is the better alternative that nobody is offering, or is a nuclear Iran just fine? Criticism without a better suggestion or any of the responsibility is a nice chair to pontificate from. Previous leaders had the luxury to pass this on to later ones, Trump doesn't have that luxury thanks to them.; 6/18/25, 7:05 PM
Michael Fitzgerald said...: "US involvement in Israel’s war of aggression against Iran!"
You have to be a fucking asshole or a Democrat Party member to call what Israel is doing to the cocksucking scum of Iran a "war of aggression". JFC, the Jew-hate is palpable and despicable. Motherfucking American "conservatives" siding with Death To America chanting Iran against our bulwark in the Middle East, Israel.
Here's a hint- if you are in agreement with Kakistocracy/Rich/Chuck, then you need to recalibrate your thinking.
It ain't Trump, you assholes, it's you. You're the problem.; 6/18/25, 7:06 PM
RideSpaceMountain said...: "As long as Trump doesn't try to do nationbuilding over there, his base is not going to rebel on him."

It's not Trump doing the nationbuilding I'm worried about, as if presidents have ever come up with those plans...which incidentally have all been fucking disasters.

And no, his base will rebel. I am so fucking sick of this shit. No more blood and treasure...not one more goddammit bloodred cent. Fuck the Middle East and everyone on it. I know factually I am not alone.; 6/18/25, 7:08 PM
bagoh20 said...: The idea that a nuclear armed Iran is not going to end up worse than what we are looking at now seems pretty short sighted. There is no way we can or will avoid being painfully involved in the disasters that will bring. Think about what can happen now compared to what can happen then. It's not even close, and there is no third way I can see.; 6/18/25, 7:14 PM
Duty of Inquiry said...: The difference between Trump and his predecessors is that he understands winning. Defeating Iran's toxic government is worth the cost, but we have to actually win. Americans hate endless conflicts, police actions, and nation building. Get in do what you have to do and get out.; 6/18/25, 7:16 PM
RideSpaceMountain said...: "Any talk of regime change should be left entirely to Iranians to accomplish."

I've heard this before Krumhorn. We all have. I think most of us know deep down the vacuum left by total Iranian regime collapse will be so black-hole-massive it will suck in every major power in the Northern hemisphere.

As if Iranians would truly be given an actual interference-free choice that even remotely risks a return to a pre-collapse situation.

Every wolf on planet earth from US to Europe to Russia to China to OPEC will hear a dinner bell.; 6/18/25, 7:17 PM
Krumhorn said...: RSM, one of my faves, is fed up. I was in the Marine Corps for a number of years, and I understand his point of view. Still, I would happily suit up to deal with Fordow.

- Krumhorn; 6/18/25, 7:19 PM
Robert Marshall said...: There are lots of reasons why either choice, bomb Fordow or not, might be right or wrong. The fact that Iran took our embassy in 1979 is not relevant to that choice. That happened, but it has no bearing on whether it would be a good idea, or not, to pulverize Fordow. It's not like we're going to be setting up another embassy in Tehran anytime soon. What matters is whether our actions help bring about an end to Iran's nuclear weapons program, and prevent them from having the bomb. That result is crucial.; 6/18/25, 7:20 PM
Robert Marshall said...: There are lots of reasons why either choice, bomb Fordow or not, might be right or wrong. The fact that Iran took our embassy in 1979 is not relevant to that choice. That happened, but it has no bearing on whether it would be a good idea, or not, to pulverize Fordow. It's not like we're going to be setting up another embassy in Tehran anytime soon. What matters is whether our actions help bring about an end to Iran's nuclear weapons program, and prevent them from having the bomb. That result is crucial.; 6/18/25, 7:20 PM
Jaq said...: https://thefederalist.com/2025/06/17/poll-just-16-percent-of-americans-want-u-s-involved-in-israel-iran-war/

I remember that I believed all of the arguments that the neocons are making now back in the good old "Weapons of mass destruction!" days. You can probably find a lot of comments of mine here defending W. I have done a lot of soul searching since that time. Sixteen percent.

The people who conned Trump into this are not his friends. They think that destroying his presidency is just a bonus. They do it time after time, get some leader to do something they want done that is extremely unpopular, then cast him aside, and move on.

Right now the Europeans are trying to get Zelensky to draft 18 year olds, a move that would destroy his popular support, already civilian posses are defending young men from Ukrainian press gangs, but once he does it, they have two problems solved, Zelensky, past his sell-by date is gone, and they have the 18 year olds to die fighting Russia for us. It's an old ploy, and Trump has fallen for it, but Zelensky hasn't.; 6/18/25, 7:22 PM
boatbuilder said...: RSM--Never believe "the polls". This one says MAGA is gung ho. (I have no idea but they can't both be correct).

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2025/06/no-maga-schism-on-iran.php; 6/18/25, 7:22 PM
Duty of Inquiry said...: I suggest "Advice to War Presidents: A Remedial Course in Statecraft" by Angelo Codevilla; 6/18/25, 7:22 PM
Jaq said...: Remember than when Iran took our embassy, this was after many years of being ruled over by a CIA stooge, in the Shah.

Many people who would not ordinarily support militant Islam, see it as the only counter to Western military superiority. Palestinians used to call suicide bombers "F-11s" the '11' representing two legs.

Oh, and let's not forget US support for jihadi terrorism. It's admitted to, by Jimmy Carter's national security advisor, "what's a few excited jihadis?" and just last month, the Pakistani defense minister, the country that was sheltering bin Laden, if you recall.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/pakistan/weve-been-doing-dirty-work-for-us-for-3-decades-pakistan-defence-minister-on-support-for-terror-groups/articleshow/120611109.cms

Can somebody explain why we let him go at Tora Bora? Why we paused the bombing when we had him dead to rights? Anybody? Why Joe Biden didn't want him killed, and why we found an order to his men at his lair to not kill Joe Biden? Anybody?; 6/18/25, 7:28 PM
Jaq said...: "no MAGA schism on Iran" is obviously incorrect, as evidenced by this thread, so you can start your analysis there.; 6/18/25, 7:29 PM
RideSpaceMountain said...: All I'm saying, all I have ever said, is that the unintended negative externalities of our participation in this action are massive, largely unknown, and almost a practical guarantee. We keep doing this as a country with our foreign policy...always assuming the best possible outcome without actually considering the ugly realities not just of people in this world but in the region of the world in particular.

"Suiting up" and joining this thing is A) unnecessary - Israel is doing fine - and B) will escalate an already underway global conflict MASSIVELY.

My proposal would be for Israel to handle this. Lots here including myself think she can. I hope Trump makes the right choice to not involve this nation unless Iran makes the boneheaded decision to attack us first for some reason, which is entirely plausible they're dumb enough to do.; 6/18/25, 7:30 PM
Jaq said...: You have to be a fucking asshole or a Democrat Party member to call what Israel is doing to the cocksucking scum of Iran a "war of aggression".

Yeah! Cocksuckig scum need killing, and I have been reliably informed by our media that Iranians are cocksucking scum, and they would never lie to me about matters involving going to war or weapons of mass destruction!

It reminds me of that meme, where a lady says "I believe the science!" and the cat says back "You believe the television!"; 6/18/25, 7:33 PM
planetgeo said...: There is no way Israel can finish the job here. Iran isn't Gaza. Even though Israel currently rules the airspace there, they can't roll in the tanks and the ground forces to take out Fordow from the ground. They'd be massively outnumbered and chewed up. So that means Fordow would continue to exist. And if Fordow continues to exist, Iran will have nukes. Delayed maybe, but they will eventually have them.

Fordow must be completely destroyed and buried. Period. And the only way that will happen is if the US finishes it off with its bunker busters. No ground troops or other in-country operations. Just drop the bunker busters and finish Iran's quest for nukes.; 6/18/25, 7:36 PM
Jaq said...: We are already involved. Under Obama we invaded Syria, what was the justification? I don't know, but we took their oil fields and their grain fields and starved them of cash and food until they collapsed, then just last month we put the head choppers of ISIS in charge, and Israel wiped out the air defenses, and created an undefended air corridor for this war. Trump orders the troops to leave during his last presidency, and the military simply defied him. Now here we are. This is our war, and if Israel were really doing so well, we shouldn't be hearing these calls for us to join the fight.; 6/18/25, 7:37 PM
Jaq said...: "No ground troops or other in-country operations. Just drop the bunker busters and finish Iran's quest for nukes."

Yeah, that way we won't be involved. No way that our thousands of miles of undefended borders, nor the precedents of using civilian transportation, to embed military weaponry in your enemy's territory set by Ukraine and Israel should be of any concern to us.; 6/18/25, 7:40 PM
Jaq said...: How are the women doing in Syria now that the ISIS head choppers are in power there? As a favor to Israel? I am sure that Iranian women will fare much better if we bomb them to the stone age, and put jihadi warlords in charge there too, like in Libya and Afghanistan.

Sure, we do "nation building!" It's just that you wouldn't sign up for one of our designs.; 6/18/25, 7:42 PM
Ampersand said...: This would be a great head fake. But it's time to pass the ball to the cutter.; 6/18/25, 7:42 PM
Mark said...: Trump has to prove he doesn't always TACO.
Middle East war is a dumb hill to die on to do that, but it ain't his kids or his friends kids that would be fighting.; 6/18/25, 7:46 PM
Jaq said...: Trump got conned by his enemies. He's screwed. He screwed up the largest decision of his presidency. He trashed his credibility. He's lying non stop and contradicting himself every few hours.; 6/18/25, 7:47 PM
Rabel said...: Kack said:

"Don’t be dishonest with your followers — or yourself — and pretend like dropping multiple 30,000lb bombs is somehow not an act of war."

It'll be a 30,000 pounder although with only a 5,000 pound warhead. Probably several.

If any of you "not our problem" guys want to explain the reasoning that allows you to disregard the risk of an Iranian bomb ending up in terrorist hands, I'm willing to listen.; 6/18/25, 7:50 PM
Leland said...: Considering Krumhorn, I can understand only a US platform capable of accurately delivering a bunker buster. If that’s the question, then I think the US will likely do it. Logistics for a single mission is rather easy to deconflict.; 6/18/25, 7:50 PM
Mark said...: I can't believe FormerLawClerk thinks we as a country want war to avenge the land we lost when they took our embassy. That lot isn't worth the mission costs to drop a series of massive bombs on their underground facility.

We know how these wars go and how being greeted as liberators actually turns out.; 6/18/25, 7:53 PM
Fred Drinkwater said...: Jamie, your intuition for what a "loose cannon" is, is correct.; 6/18/25, 7:57 PM
Jersey Fled said...: According to a CNN poll I saw this afternoon, Americans Left, Right and Center support America preventing Iran from getting a nuclear weapon by an overwhelming margin.

His decision is made. He’s just giving Iran a little more time on the chance that they will give in on their own before the inevitable happens.; 6/18/25, 7:57 PM
Jaq said...: "If any of you "not our problem" guys want to explain the reasoning that allows you to disregard the risk of an Iranian bomb ending up in terrorist hands,"

So basically we have to flatten every country that could possibly ever own a nuke? Pakistan has nukes and they harbored bin Laden, although they recently explained that they were just doing our "dirty work," what about India? Some of those Sikhs, I don't know. The list of countries that we need to flatten is never ending.

But Iran could always follow Qaddafi's example, and give up all of his programs, certainly then we will treat them well, just like we did Qaddafi... Oh wait, bad example.; 6/18/25, 7:58 PM
RideSpaceMountain said...: "Just drop the bunker busters and finish Iran's quest for nukes."

Doing so would effectively send the following political message throughout the world:

The USA's dedication to nuclear non-proliferation excludes Israel. The USA is willing to intervene militarily to stop nuclear weapons programs except Israel's program, which we do not acknowledge exists. The United States acknowledges this is a contradiction, and if you don't like it, we will bomb you.

If you have more than 2 brain cells, I think you know what lots of countries will do next. It's a bad policy, a bad argument, and will unwind decades of efforts to limit nuclear weapon proliferation. It will have the exact opposite effect.

It will in effect confirm to so many what they've always suspected, America is not to be trusted and is agreement-incapable and does not believe in rules it has itself promulgated in good faith for several generations. It will destroy what's left of our already fragile credibility and will lead to more, and larger, wars.

We should not do this. Good night.; 6/18/25, 7:58 PM
Jaq said...: "War fever! Catch it today!"; 6/18/25, 8:00 PM
Jaq said...: Ultimately the plan has been to destroy every regime in every country with significant resources that we do not utterly control. For example, Pakistan, we ordered them to remove, arrest, and imprison Imran Kahn, their most popular politician, and they did it. If we don't have that kind of regime in place in every country with significant resources, like Iran, the wars don't end.; 6/18/25, 8:04 PM
Kevin said...: John McCain wouldn’t have waited 100 days to drop 30,000 lb. bombs on Iran.; 6/18/25, 8:10 PM
Wince said...: Disparity of Cult said...
Good thoughts, good words, and good deeds...

Spoken like a true Zoroastrian.; 6/18/25, 8:12 PM
Inga said...: “Trump got conned by his enemies. He's screwed. He screwed up the largest decision of his presidency. He trashed his credibility. He's lying non stop and contradicting himself every few hours.”

That’s the guy you voted for. Proud of your vote now?; 6/18/25, 8:15 PM
Inga said...: “Trump has to prove he doesn't always TACO.
Middle East war is a dumb hill to die on to do that, but it ain't his kids or his friends kids that would be fighting.”

They’ll be safely underground.; 6/18/25, 8:17 PM
Inga said...: “And no, his base will rebel. I am so fucking sick of this shit. No more blood and treasure...not one more goddammit bloodred cent. Fuck the Middle East and everyone on it. I know factually I am not alone.”

So you were deluded enough to believe he was going to be the President of Peace and voted for him. I sure hope all you peace loving MAGAs don’t live to regret your complicity in making Trump president.; 6/18/25, 8:23 PM
boatbuilder said...: The USA's dedication to nuclear non-proliferation excludes Israel. The USA is willing to intervene militarily to stop nuclear weapons programs except Israel's program, which we do not acknowledge exists. The United States acknowledges this is a contradiction, and if you don't like it, we will bomb you.
I think that this is an accurate statement. Do you imagine that there is any country in the world that doesn't already understand this?
There is only one country which may credibly be expected to use its nukes, consequences be damned, once it gets them. The rest of the world knows this, just as they know that Israel has nukes, and that the USA will back Israel. They also know that the country most likely to use its nukes once it gets them has been fighting proxy wars against the US and Israel for over 40 years.
The not-so-curious silence of the "World Community" speaks volumes about how the "World Community" feels about Iran having nuclear weapons.; 6/18/25, 8:31 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: What if they don't say "no mas". How long will the bombing (m dash) and if Iran is in rubble, aren't we supposed to put it back together? Which mean, Trump being responsible for putting boots on the ground in Iran, this time.

There's more to think about than just stopping the Nuclear Program.; 6/18/25, 8:47 PM
wildswan said...: Everyone is waging unconventional war and peace and they go on together. There's drones, cyber war, terrorists, Iranian armed miltias, Mossad ops, spy satellites, media subversion. It's like 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea where a mysterious submarine moves about on a mission - unknown, unseen till the moment when it declares itself. It's imaginable that Fordow would be bombed effectively because Israel does have the capability - why should they announce it? Or maybe the Ukraine has a new drone - why should they announce it? Or the US is not going to announce anything ever. And not going to do regime change either. Though we do know where the regime is.; 6/18/25, 8:55 PM
Aggie said...: My prediction, and I say up front, I'm no expert.

A foray by the US could be limited to doing the one thing that the Israelis and other regional actors cannot do: Drop a handful of bunker-busters at Fodor and eliminate the complex, and eliminate the chance that it can be re-opened somehow. It follows that Israel had been given the 60 days to soften the target and prepare the ground by removing Iran's defensive capability, which they have done pretty comprehensively. And it also follows that Israel is fully capable of setting up the necessary, so that a provisional government of Iranians can step up and take control and begin governing. The only authoritarian power left there is the Republican Guard, who will now be thinking of the blank page that is their future. I'm mindful that the Israelis have been careful to not destroy too much infrastructure, and this would facilitate a return to peaceful existence day-to-day.

The legitimacy of the Iranian Shias depends on the obliteration of Israel so the prophet may return. They can settle for nothing less, existentially, as a religion. On the other hand, the elderly Ayatollahs are rumored to be frail and may already have evacuated to Oman (3 diplomatic planes landed there this afternoon), so their personal legitimacy as religious zealots is gone, if this evacuation is true. If so, the religious authority has been decapitated, just as the military has been. Not that it was popular.

My guess is any putative use of US force has already been cleared with the regional powers and maybe even further afield than that, and it is strictly confined and limited in scope. So it won't be a surprise to anybody, nor will it be bad news. Nobody at this point supports Iran, Hezbolla, Hamas, or the Houthis, except other bad guys. They're a nuisance.

This sets up Trump to sweat the Ayatollah and Iranian military leaders, those still alive. He can call it off anytime, they just have to say the word 'Uncle' and then the orderly transfer of power can begin. Or he can say 'go' and the bunker busters effectively end the regime anyway.

I don't see the need any further involvement from the US than this, and I certainly don't see US as peacekeeping troops. My bet would be that the regional interests would love to step up, and have already discussed a plan. This would be the first test of the Abraham accords, something that Trump wants to see become the governing force in the region.

Fun to speculate !; 6/18/25, 8:56 PM
Achilles said...: RideSpaceMountain said...
C'mon let's be real, there is no 'folk memory' for anybody who was born after 1970. No one under 55 gives a crap about this ancient blood feud, and a significant number of those couldn't find Iran on a map.

I agree in the sentiment. All of the past slights are not important.

But a lot of us who went to Iraq remember the Iranian EFP's that killed more than a few of us.; 6/18/25, 8:56 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: If you are going to continue bombing, there's got to be a strategic end, (leaving it up to Iran is not a strategy) where we get what we want and at the same time we don't decapitate that country to such an extent that there might not be a functioning country left, unless we commit to putting our boots on the ground, AGAIN.

Hopefully, the decision doesn't come down to the last person calling Trump on his phone.

I vote we don't start another war. War is not like raising tariffs; 6/18/25, 8:59 PM
Achilles said...: Jaq said...
You have to be a fucking asshole or a Democrat Party member to call what Israel is doing to the cocksucking scum of Iran a "war of aggression".

Yeah! Cocksuckig scum need killing, and I have been reliably informed by our media that Iranians are cocksucking scum, and they would never lie to me about matters involving going to war or weapons of mass destruction!

It reminds me of that meme, where a lady says "I believe the science!" and the cat says back "You believe the television!"

There is a big difference between the Iranians and the Mullahs.

Over the next months that difference will become clear.; 6/18/25, 9:00 PM
Achilles said...: Lem Vibe Bandit said...
If you are going to continue bombing, there's got to be a strategic end, (leaving it up to Iran is not a strategy) where we get what we want and at the same time we don't decapitate that country to such an extent that there might not be a functioning country left, unless we commit to putting our boots on the ground, AGAIN.

Hopefully, the decision doesn't come down to the last person calling Trump on his phone.

I vote we don't start another war. War is not like raising tariffs

There are a lot of Iranian exiles and Iranians who are ready for that role. The Persians are going to surprise people.

After seeing how well planned and orchestrated this operation has been I will be shocked if there isn't a slate of exiles and political leaders who have been picked and prepped for this opportunity.; 6/18/25, 9:04 PM
Achilles said...: Inga said...
“And no, his base will rebel. I am so fucking sick of this shit. No more blood and treasure...not one more goddammit bloodred cent. Fuck the Middle East and everyone on it. I know factually I am not alone.”

So you were deluded enough to believe he was going to be the President of Peace and voted for him. I sure hope all you peace loving MAGAs don’t live to regret your complicity in making Trump president.

This kind of stupidity wont be aging well.

The Middle East is on a path towards a peaceful equilibrium for the first time in well, ever.

Trump set this all up during the Middle East Trip he was on not long ago. Everyone in the Middle East is supporting Israel. They all wanted the Mullahs gone.; 6/18/25, 9:07 PM
boatbuilder said...: The source of that quote was the Wall Street Journal. Some degree of skepticism is in order.

The question is--did Trump plant this, or one of his enemies?; 6/18/25, 9:14 PM
Achilles said...: boatbuilder said...

Looks like a legitimate quote to me considering the remnants of the Mullah regime are in Oman right now talking to Rubio and others.

The only member of senior leadership left in Iran is 4 years older than Biden and not making many public appearances lately.

Iranian State media is being hacked and the people of Iran are being organized pretty quickly. This was over before it started.; 6/18/25, 9:27 PM
Peachy said...: I hope you are right, Aggie.; 6/18/25, 9:29 PM
Peachy said...: I-nag - your corrupt party is in free-fall. Kamala and Walz are evil puppets. Nobody cares what you and your fellow Democrat party loyalist cultists think.; 6/18/25, 9:31 PM
Peachy said...: Meanwhile:
X
"It’s so weird being Iranian right now, scrolling through my feed and seeing all my fellow Iranians praying for freedom, and seeing every white leftist & terror sympathizer praying the oppressor wins… “for humanity.” "

Not that democratic cultists care about anything but their obsessive Maddow hatred of Trump.; 6/18/25, 9:34 PM
Jim at said...: So you were deluded enough to believe he was going to be the President of Peace and voted for him. I sure hope all you peace loving MAGAs don’t live to regret your complicity in making Trump president.

Considering Trump hasn't done anything (yet), don't you think it's a bit early to be waving your Finger of Shame?; 6/18/25, 9:47 PM
hanuman_prodigious_leaper said...: Why no discussion of carving up Persia ?
Are there no ethnic diversity?; 6/18/25, 10:06 PM
Lazarus said...: If he doesn't, then he's sending the message to Iran that he is weak and won't attack, no matter what Iran does. If they are currently threatening him with some sort of nuclear threat, then they will be emboldened if he backs down. So he cannot back down.

There are plenty of assumptions in there. If Trump doesn't participate, I'd assume it would be because he thought Israel has already done the job or because he thinks Israel has done enough or too much already. If he does participate, I doubt it would be because Iran has a gun to his head and he has to prove he's not chicken. Trump apparently gave Netanyahu a green light, but does that mean that he has to go full-on Netanyahu himself?; 6/18/25, 10:10 PM
D.D. Driver said...: How WET is Liz Cheney over all of this? LOL. You guys are a joke.; 6/18/25, 10:52 PM
Josephbleau said...: Lots of cat calling and neocon this and Liz Chaney that in the comments today.

There are two probable consequences of the US assisting in the complete remote controlled destruction of the few Iranian nuclear weapons sites:

1. Iran will have the clock reset to a decade or so before they can make their own nukes. I don’t know why that is a bad thing, even if we think that China or Russia will give them some anyway, that has been much discussed but not happed yet, probably due to not wanting to be pariahs on the world stage. Nuclear access does not need to be fair and universally available unless you are a utopian.

2. Iran may have secret terror cells of immigrant Iranian doctors and business people and hidden border crossers that are waiting to attack the US in retaliation if we stymie their atomic ambition. But this is kind of silly, they know we are not stopping Israel so if they want a final Götterdämmerung why have they not done it yet? Are they waiting for the symbolic event to occur?

I suspect that the issue is more important to most people as a tool of domestic politics, blame Trump for being a war monger and praise Trump for taking a multi decade Iranian disaster off the table.

If we drop some bunker busters on Iran and don’t go in with an army and let the Iranians sort out the rest, somewhat contained by Israel I would say that is a reasonable decision. If that makes the Iranian mullahs go all 12th imam and try to kill everyone, we’ll then, they are going to do that someday anyway.

So I vote for the super penetrators only. Then the dems and republicans can blame each other like they always do.; 6/19/25, 5:22 AM
Ambrose said...: The media seem surprised and disappointed Trump won’t discuss confidential war plans with them.; 6/19/25, 5:27 AM
tim maguire said...: I prefer we cheer from the sidelines, but let’s not kid ourselves. Iran has been at war with the United States for half a century. We have merely (mostly) chosen not to respond.

We are neither starting a war nor even escalating one if we help Israel bust a bunker that only the United States can bust.; 6/19/25, 6:03 AM
Michael McNeil said...: George Galloway, communist of the U.K., posted the following on X:

Trump doesn't seem to know that from the beginning Shia Muslims have no fear of death, martyrdom. Indeed are inspired by it. But he will learn in the next days weeks months and years.

On the contrary, it is because “Shia Muslims [reputedly] have no fear of death, martyrdom. Indeed are inspired by it” that is precisely why the Iranian Islamist regime cannot be allowed to obtain nuclear weapons—MAD (mutual assured destruction) deterrence can't (or at least, may not) work with them—which Trump is obviously well aware of.; 6/19/25, 6:36 AM
Kakistocracy said...: "The Middle East is on a path towards a peaceful equilibrium for the first time in well, ever."

I hope that your optimism is proven to be warranted, but my experience has been that dramatic change such as most of us in the West might like to see in Iran usually occurs unexpectedly and is never driven from the outside--if you hope for the change to last.; 6/19/25, 7:12 AM
Curious George said...: "Trump doesn't seem to know that from the beginning Shia Muslims have no fear of death, martyrdom."

I think this is bullshit. Sure there is the odd fanatic, but those in power want to live, as do most citizens.; 6/19/25, 7:25 AM
Peachy said...: DD -D - Liz Cheney(D) should be brought up on charges for her lies and document destruction around her fraud Jan 6th committee.; 6/19/25, 7:28 AM
Fandor said...: I have questions.
If Israel has control over the airspace over Iran how did the Ayatollah and others escape to Oman?
Is Israel destroying every military facility in Iran from the air?
Can Israel have a war of attrition with Iran without the US bombing the nuclear site ourselves?
Why isn't it a no-man's land for 10 miles all around the Iranian Nuclear site?
Are Iran's harbors being bombed?
Can the US continue to supply Israel with munitions and aircraft, as we do, or have, in the Ukraine until the Iranian population raises up to revolt against the mullahs?
Has the Mossad and our CIA stirred up the Iranians to revolt? If not, why not?
Are hit teams being sent out to assassinate the mullahs and every top ranking military leader in Iran?
Can that happen? Why not?
Are the scientists working on Iran's Nuclear program being targeted for assassination?
What's the hurry to get the US 100% committed to this Iranian s**t show when Israel is doing such a fine job with their own military?
Is an occupation planned or is it regime change, with no nuclear weapons for Iran, that is the goal?
Can Iran be isolated from recieving military help from the world at large?
And the last question, that is really a running joke; Where are the diplomats and the UN during all this upheaval?
No need to answer that last question.
The UN is impotent. It's a fantasy that they atre good for anything. Kick 'em out of NYC.; 6/19/25, 7:29 AM
Peachy said...: "In Tehran, Iranians are reportedly chanting enthusiastically about the anticipated fall of the “Islamic Republic” regime and the potential return of the Crown Prince, heir to the ancient throne of Persia."

Decadent American leftists chant and cheer for Iran's Islamic Theocracy.; 6/19/25, 7:34 AM
Rusty said...: Former law clerk @ 6:15

You're looking at this backwards, or in a typical leftist way. There is no reason to attack if Israel is accomplishing the same goal without our help. Should we decide to attack it will be in an extremely limited way. A couple of bunker busters from 30 thousand feet.
Your game theory is one upmanship. Trumps game theory is ending this quickly with as little loss of life as possible.; 6/19/25, 7:47 AM
D.D. Driver said...: @peachy Doesn't it seem like Donnie owes Liz a big apology, though? Turns out she was right all along and Don just needed a pair of balls. Thankfully, Bibi helped him find them.

We also might get to have war with Russia and China, too. A three-for-one! It is a FANTASTIC day for the Cheneys, our nations greatest patriots. What is good for Liz Cheney is good for America.

Regime change!!!! Let's do this shit. It's going to be GREAT.; 6/19/25, 7:55 AM
Rusty said...: I like the comments that boil down to, "How will this look to the rest of the world?"
Seriously? Who gives a fuck. We will do what is in our best interests.
All of which misses the bigger picture. No aggressor Iran will leave the rest of the middle east in a better position to work out their differences. Funny thing is that Iranian people call the mullahs the "Islamic Occupiers". My opinion is they probably have the best chance of forming some sort of democracy once this is over.; 6/19/25, 7:57 AM
Kai Akker said...: The problem with the quote at the top is that Trump is probably being accurate. It explains how national policies lurch wildly from one thing to the next; and gives some credence to those who say the last voice at his ear gets his way.

As for demolishing the Fordow facility, if there is no capability other than our bunker-busters, it seems a no-brainer to me. For the good reasons mosby, bagoh20 and others have laid out. Trump will have to do a Jefferson with the Louisiana Purchase. Circumstances dictate. What a golden opportunity to rid the world of a death cult whose death worship is directed at us. The silence from all of Araby speaks volumes.; 6/19/25, 8:21 AM
D.D. Driver said...: "My opinion is they probably have the best chance of forming some sort of democracy once this is over."

That's also Liz Cheney's opinion and she has never been wrong.; 6/19/25, 8:42 AM
Space City Girl said...: He’s going to do it and he should. Iran cannot be trusted. They have shown us that time and again. They funded Hamas and cheered on October 7th. If they get a bomb, they will use it. This is not a difficult decision.; 6/19/25, 8:48 AM
Kakistocracy said...: ^^ I voted for Trump the pragmatic, peaceful, free speech advocate. So why did I get Trump the deranged, war-loving dictator?

Trump is a new kind of Republican. Yes, his agenda includes Middle East invasions, sexual culture wars, throwing people off their healthcare, and exploding the debt with handouts to the ultra-rich. But he also sells his own crypto, bibles, and cell phone service.; 6/19/25, 9:04 AM
Kakistocracy said...: Why would the same president who can't manage his trade war be any better at managing his shooting war?

Tulsi Gabbard is the director of national intelligence. What could possibly go wrong?; 6/19/25, 9:08 AM
Achilles said...: Fandor said...
I have questions.
If Israel has control over the airspace over Iran how did the Ayatollah and others escape to Oman?

What do you mean "escape?"; 6/19/25, 9:11 AM
Achilles said...: Kakistocracy said...

Why would the same president who can't manage his trade war be any better at managing his shooting war?

Tulsi Gabbard is the director of national intelligence. What could possibly go wrong?

You are just so stupid.

Working class wages are already up Rich. You just look stupid again and again and again.; 6/19/25, 9:12 AM
Achilles said...: Krumhorn said...
Something must be done about Fordow. This is a unique moment in time in which to get it done. Other than a B-2 strike, I don't know what else is required. The Israelis have air superiority and the target is well-known. It should be blown to Allah and the virgins. Get in; get out. Any talk of regime change should be left entirely to Iranians to accomplish. I doubt very much that any measurable number of Trump voters will jump ship over this.

- Krumhorn

What is happening in Oman right now? Trump is offering the living remnants of the mullah regime a chance to be in a post mullah government.

They left the very old supreme leader with deteriorating health alive so the people can pull him down themselves.

More than that every other nation in the Middle East is on board with the broad goals of the Abraham Accords of which Iran will now be a part.

This plan is months old and being executed extremely well. Everyone gets what they want including the Iranian people.

Not to be forgotten is the massive amount of leverage this give Trump with Russia and China. And Macron gets F'd again. There is no downside here.; 6/19/25, 9:20 AM
Kakistocracy said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/19/25, 9:25 AM
Kakistocracy said...: Trump should offer Iran a final diplomatic deal: Iran must surrender all enriched uranium, dismantle its nuclear program, including centrifuges, and allow ongoing IAEA inspections. In return, the US would ease economic sanctions, retract military threats, broker a broader ceasefire, and include Iran in a regional uranium enrichment consortium for peaceful nuclear energy.

Iran might agree, as Khomeini did in 1988, reluctantly ending the Iran-Iraq War to preserve the Islamic Republic, despite likening the decision to "drinking poison."; 6/19/25, 10:19 AM
SAGOLDIE said...: This is not a mystery . . . .

Contrast the WWII Japanese Kamakazi pilots - not just prepared but enthusiastically looking to die for their case vs General Patton's famous, "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making some other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

The Iranian leaders (and sooo many Muslims) have even taught that Israel/Jews taking over "Dar es Salaam" (an area committed to Islam) was the "Catastrophe" and that it is their duty to correct it and remember, martyrdom is a virtue.

Obama's objective was to slow them so that they didn't get The Bomb while he was president. He made it worth their while to go-slow but now he's no longer President.

The Iranian leaders are committed and patient. Do we wait for our own October 7 and then figure out what can be done or do we work with Israel to "fix it" sooner rather than later?; 6/19/25, 11:27 AM
Rusty said...: Rich @ 10:19
They had 60 days. They did nothing. Israel has helped them decide.

Sagoldie @ 11:27
Well they're going to have to do that from Oman or someplace other than Iran because most of them have already left or have been killed.
I hear there are hiring.; 6/19/25, 11:57 AM
Rabel said...: "So basically we have to flatten every country that could possibly ever own a nuke?"

No, not at all.; 6/19/25, 12:44 PM
Kakistocracy said...: Netanyahu has long dreamed of confronting Iran. Destroying Iran's nuclear capabilities and securing an agreement to halt uranium enrichment on Iranian soil would be a major victory for him. It would also be a significant win for Trump.; 6/19/25, 1:55 PM