“There’s nothing the president said that suggests that he’s about to get involved in this conflict — on the contrary.... There’s nothing the president said that suggests that he’s about to get involved in this conflict — on the contrary.... Throughout the dinner yesterday I was sitting right next to President Trump, so I’ve no doubt in my mind, the level of agreement there was in relation to the words that were then issued immediately after."
Those words are discussed, here, in detail, in the first post of the day.
It's kind of funny that he has "no doubt in [his] mind" because he was "sitting right next to" him.
Starmer argued that Trump “wanted to go beyond a ceasefire effectively and end the conflict. And I think he’s right about that." He said “a ceasefire is always a means to an end. The end we want to see is the de-escalation and back to negotiations — a deal to deal with the Iranian nuclear program, and, of course, the wider question of conflict across the Middle East, including Gaza.”
Posts
158 comments:
So, we elected Trump because he's "the peace candidate" and "america first", and the next thing you know we're going to war with Iran. Good grief. Now I know how Woodrow Wilson voters felt in 1917.
I think Trump may be coming back to finish the Abraham Accords, including Syria, to signal to Iran that it is alone in its quest to eliminate Israel. This would include a joint statement from all countries for an end to Iranian aggression.
It may even include an outline for the post-Hamas future of the Palestinian people.
That would create even greater moral authority to call for the resignation or destruction of the Iranian regime.
In the truest sense of the MAGA brand, it would be a deal that ends the oldest ongoing conflict.
Trump’s abrupt G7 exit does raise the prospect of US involvement in Iran.
“Trump said this morning that US ambassador to Israel Mike Huckabee told him no president “has been in a position like yours. Not since [Harry] Truman in 1945”.
This scenario poses a significant political risk for Trump, who portrays himself as a peacemaker, as it would mean breaking his anti-war pledge to his MAGA base.
The first Iraq war ended with a ceasefire, persisted through Clinton, ended with Bush, was then recycled, renewed by Obama through premature withdrawal and Iranian funding, and finally ended by Trump with a well-placed missile up an Iranian proxy, and aborting the ethnic Springs with cooperation of stakeholders in the Middle East and surrounding regions, only to be conceived and birthed anew under Biden. Trump 2.0? Hopefully, sooner than later.
"So, we elected Trump because he's 'the peace candidate' and 'america first', and the next thing you know we're going to war with Iran."
We're technically not @ war with Iran yet...technically. I did love his little "America first means IRAN CANNOT HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPON".
World peace means Israel can not only have a nuclear weapon...but several of them...using materials and technology stolen from US (bridgewire detonators and uranium pitchblende), and a nuclear program...which it doesn't have to declare for some reason. World peace means Iran can't have one.
I'm glad Donald has cleared this multi-decade dichotomy up for us in the most contorted logic possible.
If Trump decides to go to war with iran, he'll get no support from MAGA. We have no dog in this fight. Incredible that he wants to side with Ben Shapiro and the Neo-Cons who either sat out 2016, or supported Hillary.
"The Ayatollah is sharp as a tack." - Iranian Spokesperson Karine Jean Pierre.
Donald and the neocons are going to be really really shocked when they see how few Americans under 60 have any appetite for further involvement with the sand people and their endless wars.
I can assure ROceanII that Donald Trump will get tremendous support from MAGA if he goes to war with Iran owing to the fact that Iran invaded the United States in 1979 and took land from us that they still occupy - resulting in the death of 8 soldiers.
We haven't forgotten about that and we're going to get that land back if it takes a thousand years and we intend to avenge the deaths of eight Americans in the process.
What on earth makes you think we're going to spend our treasure and lives to make war with Iran? Israel is already handing them their lunch. Why interfere?
Trump keep-‘em-guessing strategy. Just go golfing and let them all stew.
Again in order to have peace you must be able to discern between the assholes and the enemies.
Russia is an enemy. But they can be worked with. The same with China. There needs to be the ability to go to war and as long as it is not worth their while the enemy will make rational decisions and war is extremely unlikely.
Assholes are different and they need to be treated differently. Iran is asshole. Assholes need to go. The mullahs have been the source of problems in the Middle East for 30 years.
Part of this is the Shia problem. The Shia Muslims are a crazy cult. The 12th Imam thing is nuts. They have a day where they run around and cut themselves in order to reaffirm their commitment to killing everyone else.
Taking out the Iran regime and taking out the Iraq regime are 2 completely separate things. What Iraq became without him was worse than what it was when he ran the place.
Iran is different because it cannot get any worse than it currently is. Even an ISIS run fail state would be better than the mullahs.
After Iran is gone and hamas destroyed you are going to see a reconciliation in the ME that will be shocking and the potential to reform Islam becomes reality.
Netanyahu has long dreamed of confronting Iran. Destroying Iran's nuclear capabilities and securing an agreement to halt uranium enrichment on Iranian soil would be a major victory for him. It would also be a significant win for Trump.
I guess this makes me a Neocon…..
Amen Rusty. Israel is a strong independent country that don't need no man! She's got this!
"
AND: The London Times reports this from the U.K Prime Minister, Keir Starmer:
“There’s nothing the president said that suggests that he’s about to get involved in this conflict — on the contrary.... There’s nothing the president said that suggests that he’s about to get involved in this conflict — on the contrary.... "
--------
Max Headroom glitch, ann?
Max Headroom glitch, ann?
(are are you just one of those lazy writers who cuts and pastes and doesn't read what you're putting into your print? lol. Don't be lazy, prof. You have all day to read what you're putting out under your name...)
The other thing that people miss is the people of Iran hate the mullahs.
All you need to do is decapitate their leadership and provide a no fly zone and the people of Iran will take care of the rest.
I do not expect any kind of US invasion or serious involvement particularly since Israel is doing all of the heavy lifting already.
There is potential for massive gains with minimal investment in this situation. Anyone who analyzes this without morality or tribal hatred clouding their judgement will see what should be done.
I was reading somewhere that the US is mobilizing a fleet of air tankers and support infrastructure to the region. Would that mean we intend to assist in keeping aircraft refueled and in the air for longer missions? Would they have to be our aircraft, or could we assist another client with their own business?
Interesting times.
Countering lies and hearsay - is half of what Trump does everyday.
What a waste of time for him.
gnats, everywhere.
Of course, tanker collisions and fires in the Straits could change all of that too.
Stop killing children.
STop killing children.
Stop killing children...
Do you think -- put on your thinking cap now, proffy... -- that the disrespect for lives of others that we saw here in America after 9/11 when Bush/Cheney were "leading" you scared ninnys who honestly thought all the buildings even in your small remote midwestern outpost were going to fall down on her single-mum head with nobody there to protect her boys!!... led to the disrespect for life we see today? Can you formulate your own thoughts (no asking AI to think for you!) and put them into words in how we got here in America today? Maybe you'll understand why the young people are refusing to play your game... No babies for you! You only kill children, can't care for or nuture them into healthy adulthood.
Some people commenting here fail to realize that Iran has been at war with the US since 1979. Some people commenting here must think when the Iranians are jesting when they chant death to America and Israel. Some people commenting here haven't notice that of all the world's nuclear or near nuclear powers except Iran have never stated they would annihilate another country simply because it exists.
ah yes the treacherous gaul whose power companies seeded both the iraqi and iranian nuclear programs, under sarkozy who was another crook, of a different stripe, they made some gestures about the latter program, meanwhile macron made such a big deal about algeria, the original long expedition,
Achilles said...
The other thing that people miss is the people of Iran hate the mullahs.
All you need to do is decapitate their leadership and provide a no fly zone and the people of Iran will take care of the rest.
--------
Lol. Sound familiar?
"The people of Iraq hate Saddam. All they need is a little help from the US military, a big rope say, to help them pull down the oversized statue of their leader. That's all. Once the US troops assist with overthrowing the statue, the Iraqui people are ready and willing, and able!, to do the rest! They can pay us back with their oil money..."
The only thing worse than old fools 20 years in hindsight are old fools who still support the old Bush/Cheney moves and want to do that dance again one more time before they leave this earth... Go camping already, ma'am? You boomers have nothing more to contribute to planet Earth.
he still made silly dhimmi noises about settlements as his own paris became overrun with ban lieus, the no go zones,
its still a good question, to ask where does this end, even osirak only put a pause on the iraqi nuclear program
If I knew that Iran having a nuclear weapon would result in turning the entire ME into a glass parking lot I'd probably give them a few warheads. There'd be some fracas on the front end but Southwest Asia ceasing to exist would pay dividends for untold centuries.
They can kill each other till there's no one left, that's how much I care about that part of the world, and those people, cubanbob.
narciso said, "its still a good question, to ask where does this end..."
It doesn't end, narciso
It never ends
It will never end
My great-great-grandchildren will still be dealing with this shit somehow
Forever and ever and ever.
Rusty said...
What on earth makes you think we're going to spend our treasure and lives to make war with Iran? Israel is already handing them their lunch. Why interfere?
I expect Trump to make a minimal investment in the situation. Probably enforcing a no fly zone over an already pacified country. Moving a couple aircraft carriers over.
Then he will place himself at the table where the post mullah Iran will be arranged. He will take that position because Israel cannot do that.
He will do that to give himself leverage when dealing with Russia, Europe, and China who all have interest in the area.
Russia has bases there and gains access to the gulf through Iran and Syria. Trump will bend Putin over to keep that access.
China buys 80-90% of Iranian oil exports at discount. Trump is going to put the screws to whoever is currently in charge of China.
Europe is run by corrupt evil colonists and they should just be told to get fucked in general.
Trump just had a major rapprochement with Sunni ME. They are going to welcome him as king maker in the process. This is an opportunity to actually make the world a better place and it will take minimal investment for the US.
Things can obviously still go wrong but this one is worth the risk.
cubanbob - 10:31- Right!
it does put all that silly talk about the so called fatwa, that proscribed the nuclear program, well we forgot that was ever said
If Iran didn't have a bomb before all this (which I don't believe), and the Iranian regime survives, you can bet your bottom dollar they will now, and soon.
Now everybody hates Trump for the war he has not got us into?
When this is in some form over, the bottom line is whether Fordow is still safely tucked under its mountain. That, it seems to me, is Trump's call.
from the moderate Rafsanjani to the extremist Ahmadinejad, they have all pledged to destroy israel, thats kind of a stupid process,
RideSpaceMountain said...
narciso said, "its still a good question, to ask where does this end..."
It doesn't end, narciso
It never ends
It will never end
My great-great-grandchildren will still be dealing with this shit somehow
Forever and ever and ever.
That describes history. There will always be conflict and struggle.
The alternative would be very boring and devoid of purpose.
this was the site, that was alluded to in top gun maverick, protected by S 200 missiles, probably 5th generation fighters
but consider did the IAEA flag the pakistani bomb or the indian bomb, so they are mostly useless at best, and now two nuclear powers are at hair triggers as recently as a few months ago,
its been going on for nearly 50 years since they let that stupid peanut farm manager into the white house,
of course, Paul Erdman, had a slightly different scenario in the Crash of 79 between the Shah and the Saudi King,
@Achilles, for my entire adult life, America has been involved in Middle Eastern wars. For many of the commenters here, most if not all of their adult lives, America has been involved in Middle Eastern wars. In other words, for the better part of 1/3 of this countries history, the United States has been fighting wars in some fashion in a region 7000 miles away on the other side of a fucking ocean.
It has spent untold blood, treasure, and prestige involving itself with sheep thieves, something that I don't think anyone involved in the other 2/3 of this country's history ever intended this country to do, or be about, or certainly involving the vast sums aforementioned that would shock the living daylights out of them.
Israel is an independent country, one that - although an ally - has lied to us and treated us extremely poorly and a relationship that, in my opinion, has always caused us far more harm than good. This is Israel's existential crisis, not ours.
It's a new century. Let's do things differently this time.
It looks like the current strategy is to kill everyone except the Supreme Leader and then let the people of Iran depose him themselves.
Curious if the people of Iran put him on trial for whatever or if they drag him through the street.
the Ayatollah is a wiley one, reputedly trained by the Soviets at Patrice Lumumba, a guest of Evin prison,
Trump will aid the rebels in Iran... help Israel start a revolution and get those Iranian fanatics out... time for a regime change!!!
The Mullahs where hung one by one Parlez-vous ?
The Mullahs where hung one by one Parlez-vous ?
Every stinking s*n-of-a-B****!!!
Inky Stinky and Khamenei to!!!! - Apropos to the inmates of Colditz Castle!
we were burned in beirut, as a favor for Arafat, then became a bullseye for the Sepah, the last players, finally knocked off the board after 40 plus years,
Achilles said... "...the current strategy is to kill everyone except the Supreme Leader and then let the people of Iran depose him themselves."
Best case scenario. The danger is usually the possibility the old tyrant is replaced by a worse tyrant, but in this case it's hard to see Iranians going that direction. I imagine there is still a large enough population that remembers life before 1979.
Starting a preemptive war to stop a country from developing weapons of mass destruction.
Trump was against it before he was for it!
DD Driver - for the vapidity.
Love ya peachy 😘
Operation Desert Storm III: The TRUMP Card
These sequels suck.
Regime change in Iran will simply result in a civil war...which might be just as good. Those that oppose the Ayatollah aren't numerous enough to decide the question when half the country are still hardliners. And there's still the question of foreign intervention (China, Russia, Norks), which means the question of a larger war between aligned-powers is left hanging out there.
Regime change hasn't worked as well for American interests as Americans have hoped for the last 80 years. What's that quote about doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results?
So Iran can attack Israel directly through proxies - Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, Palesitian Islamic Jihad, and others - for decades while openly declaring they seek to wipe Israel off the map and working very hard to become a nuclear nation....and seeking Death to America...
But yeah, it's definitely a pre-emptive war by Israel backed by the U.S.
Yep.
Everyone can see the rise of Jew-hate and antisemitism around the globe and in the US. Especially on the elite white left American campuses.
Israel knows they have a friend in Trump. The Obama-left, they side with the White Islamic Supremacist THEOCRACY who rule Iran with an iron fist. …And leftists also turn a blind eye to the subjugation of women there.
If in 2028 = the US elects another leftist Chi-Com Soros Puppet-Democrat – Israel knows they are screwed.
It’s time to end this never ending war.
"It’s time to end this never ending war."
With all due respect, the "never-ending war" in the Middle East has never been ended by more war, Peachy.
DD Driver - Not very impressive.
actually many on this board, seem to excuse the jew hatred, even after there are blatant examples, they traffic in the worst blood libel, which can end no where good,
but i'm skeptical, because even in sober hands, these things have rarely turned out well, but what is the solution, the same things we have engaged in like the malley hudna, of 2015
RideSpace. LOL - you cannot end something violent with fake-peace.
we elected Trump because he's "the peace candidate"
Speak for yourself. I voted for Trump because he was the sort of guy who took out Soleimani when it needed to be done.
A jacksonian candidate, polk was one, as well,
"Starting a preemptive war to stop a country from developing weapons of mass destruction."
All these claims (DD isn't the only one) that Iran and Israel were at peace, are absurd.
Sure think Peachy. Let's just keep rollin' and rollin' those dice till it comes up snake eyes. It's written somewhere that everything will turn out in our favor if we all pray hard enough and trust Israel to do the right thing...whatever that is.
the arab word was khalas, it was enough, with old ways of handling things after october7th,
We have short window in time - or we are back to secret midnight pallets of American Tax payer cash being shuttled to the theocratic mad-Mullahs.
You have to admit, Trump accusing somebody else of "publicity seeking" is pretty funny.
Lots of EU investment getting blasted to dust right now. They picked the wrong horse to back.
"All these claims (DD isn't the only one) that Iran and Israel were at peace, are absurd."
Who made these claims? *WE* aren't at war with Iran but it sure looks like Isreal is going to pull us in. Trump is as big a stupid cunt as Dubya. You were lied to.
Tell me how this makes more sense than the Iraq war which Trump was always opposed to (or said he was for political reasons). He was against stupid wars before he was for them!
RideSpaceMountain said …
It's a new century. Let's do things differently this time.
I participated in those invasions. I understand the feelings of betrayal. I believe that the people in charge had the goal to create perpetual war in mind.
I think this is different.
You and me both, Achilles. There's a part of my life spent over there that I can't get back along with other things that will haunt me forever, but I don't think this is different.
They. Are. Not. Worth. It.
The War Hawks are working overtime to get Trump to commit to attacking Iran with American warplanes and missiles. If Trump falls for this it will be the end of his political movement. I think he knows that.
My guess is the Iranian opposition is preparing to make a move and DC knows it. Trump returned to oversee what we can, and cannot, do to further the effort. All the hyperventilation about direct American involvement is retarded.
RCOCEAN II said...
So, we elected Trump because he's "the peace candidate" and "america first", and the next thing you know we're going to war with Iran. Good grief. Now I know how Woodrow Wilson voters felt in 1917.
The pre-requisite to peace is the ability to make war unprofitable for your enemies.
The next step is to determine who is an enemy who can be dealt with rationally and the recalcitrant zealots who everyone around hates and who will never allow equilibrium to be achieved.
Everyone in the Middle East is ready for equilibrium except the mullahs in Iran. Even the people of Iran are ready for equilibrium.
It is in Americans best interests to see this regime be deposed. Europe, Russia, and China are all part of the support structure for Iran and they all benefit from a region Iran keeps destabilizing. Our old Regime in the US kept the region unstable using Iran as their catspaw and invading everyone else.
The equation is pretty simple. Is a nuclear armed Iran acceptable?
@pacwest, was a nuclear armed Pakistan and India acceptable? Is a nuclear armed North Korea acceptable? Is a nuclear armed Israel acceptable?
For me, the answer to your question and all above is an unequivocal "no". But that equation isn't as easy to solve as you think it is, especially since it wasn't asked in the context of armed intervention for all those other cases but is most definitely being asked in that context vis-a-vis Iran now.
Israel shouldn't have nuclear weapons. Change my mind.
It seems inevitable that a couple of US B-2s will have to destroy Fordow. Get in; get out.
RSM is one of my most favorite commenters here, but I have a different view about Iran and nukes. "Death to America" "Eradicate Israel" rhetoric cannot be ignored. As Netanyahu recently said:
We have internalized the lessons of history. When an enemy says he intends to destroy you — believe him. When the enemy develops the capabilities to destroy you — stop him.
- Krumhorn
Nobody should have nuclear weapons, but that's not the world we live in. That doesn't mean we have to allow a particularly belligerent state from acquiring them if we can help it.
""Death to America" "Eradicate Israel" rhetoric cannot be ignored." It would be foolish to do so. I don't know how this is going to end, but I don't see that Israel had a choice.
How is the NORK's rhetoric of "destroy the American imperialists" any different? And Iran is not the only "particularly belligerent" state to seek or have nuclear weapons. Are we suggesting that what Kissinger said about nuclear weapons to be geopolitically true? That having them is the ultimate insurance against regime change?
If that's the case then I have bad news, because way more nations than those topically discussed will be seeking to acquire them.
I agree with OG Mike that the genie can't be put back in the bottle, but I think we also need to acknowledge inconsistency logs in our eye before we quibble over inconsistency sticks in someone else's, especially vis-a-vis Israel.
When it comes to non-proliferation, Israel's violations of our trust and the worlds demands scrutiny, especially when almost this whole topic revolves around the nuclear issue.
Questions need to be asked, and the world deserves an answer.
"The War Hawks are working overtime to get Trump to commit to attacking Iran with American warplanes and missiles. If Trump falls for this it will be the end of his political movement. I think he knows that."
He doesn't have a choice or the Mossad will release the Epstein tapes. 🤷 Explain why tough guy Donnie is so, so submissive when it comes to Isreal? Bibi is calling the shots and Trump has no choice but to grit his teeth and go along with it.
Tulsi LITTERALLY said Iran was NOT developing Nukes. Bibi gets a veto over Trump own people. How does this makes sense? Trump is being blackmailed by Israel.
And here's the thing: maybe Trump isn't personally connected to kiddy fucking but people close to him are. This is true for EVERY major Democrat and Republican. If they weren't on the island, their friends were. This is why Congress will have hearing after hearing about whether Facebook is bad for kids or whether there are aliens in the Atlantic Ocean but ZERO appetite to investigate Epstein.
There is pretty good suspicion that Epstein was running honey pot op for the Mossad. Trump's fealty to Bibi supports those suspicions.
How is this "America First." Explain it in a way that doesn't sound like Dick Cheney? BTW, Dick Cheney must be so fucking HARD today!
"How is the NORK's rhetoric of "destroy the American imperialists" any different?"
The difference is the NORK's already have nuclear weapons. That's the point.
There are days when I just f*ing love this man.
&
Reflect on the decadent whiny-baby left's No Kings timing. LOL - this guy would be a huge improvement for the people of Iran.
No one no matter how smart knows the consequences of their actions. So we should be circumspect, knowing we could make things worse, while acting strongly in cases where injustice exceeds a certain tolerance.
That is a pretty obvious thing to say, but in simple terms, I would say we need to push Iran. They act crazy and are responsible for a lot of shit. So push them hard and deplete their resources to hurt people. It’s not to the point of a full allied invasion but the nuke program and the drone/ ballistic missile program clock needs to be set back to zero.
Anything further may be worse than restraint. But we have big men elected by the people to make the calls, and calls need to be made, so let the system work.
DD Driver - Trump was never into that stuff - Billy Jeff might have been.
@OG Mike, Iran was 5 years away from a nuclear weapon per the WSJ in 1995. They have been enriching for weapons grade and gaining know-how to build one for at another 10 years longer. It took Israel less than 12 years to get 13 simple warheads prior to 1973.
Now I have no way of confirming this, but would your opinion change if Iran did in fact secretly have a warhead (I believe they do), or more than one? Because your logic suggests that Iran, like the NORKs, suddenly become untouchable if they do.
The more I think about it the surer I am. Washington knows that a significant miltary-led coup attempt is coming.Trump made the suggestion about evacuating Tehran, not because the US is going to bomb it, but because there’s going to be a lot of intercine fighting there very soon. Things are about to get tank-y.
This is pretty funny, it's from a paper written in 2009, called "The Path to Persia" and included in a section called "Leave it to Bibi" a section about us pretending that we are not involved and helping Israel attack Iran. This is in there:
First, the israeli air Force (iaF) has the problem of overflight transit from israel to iran. israel has no aircraft carriers, so its planes must take off from israeli air bases. it also does not possess long-range bombers like the B-1 or B-2, or huge fleets of refueling tankers, all of which means that unlike the United states...
Oddly enough, when we voted in Barrack Obama, and the Democrats in 2006, the election was largely driven by a revulsion for wars and "regime change," and yet the first thing that Obama did was send US forces into Syria to take Syria's oil field and grain growing region, as a way to cripple its economy and force regime change. This year it finally bore fruit, and we put a head chopper who not six months ago had a $10 million dollar price on his head as an ISIS terrorist leader, and you don't see a lot of news about how the head choppers are dealing with the civilians we were supposed to be "protecting," but what did happen in that war is that Israel took out all of Syria's air defenses, which opened a corridor to facilitate attacks on Iran.
https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/06_iran_strategy.pdf
This war has been planned for decades, and so has the propaganda effort underpinning it. But go ahead and believe it, baying for blood feels good! Imagine Colin Powell waving a little bottle in the air at the UN, scare yourself about "weapons of mass destruction" that Iran doesn't have and doesn't want, if that's what it takes to get you good and stoked for this war.
Once again, we all live on planet Earth, and theoretically are all bound by the same rules, especially when it comes to global non-proliferation agreements and IAEA declarations for atomic energy programs both peaceful and not. Those rules include Israel.
We do not and should not have a two-tiered system, one for everyone else and a special one just for Israel. And if that's what people - and Israelis - are saying should exist, than I am most definitely not on board.
Israel is not America's wife. She can, and should, fight her own battles especially when it appears she's more than capable of winning them.
Trump WAS NEVER a GW Bush Cheney-fan or fan of the endless Iraq war. Think on that.
Surgical.
Many of you are missing what is really going on .
Sorry not sorry.
The problem for the US is that time is running out, our debts will be unsustainable in short order, we have drained our weapons stocks in Ukraine, China's navy grows by the day, the Anglo-American empire has been seeking utter world domination for centuries, and we are at the point where we either succeed in bringing the entire world to its knees, so that the next President Biden can extract not just billions, but trillions in graft, or we fail in this project, and have to find a way to live in peace with people on the other side of the world from our fortress behind the oceans.
Imagine how you would feel if a huge map of North America were laid out across a large table in Moscow or Beijing, and lines were drawn on it cutting up the US and Canada into manageable bites, and they could make it stick. That's what the Brits and the Americans did to the Middle East. Why was Kuwait split off from Iraq? Ask Churchill, he is the one who drew the line.
"Trump WAS NEVER a GW Bush Cheney-fan or fan of the endless Iraq war."
Trump is a solved problem for the neocons.
IF I were the leader of Israel and IF I knew Iran had the bomb, I imagine that would make me very leery of attacking them. I'm glad such decisions do not fall on my shoulders.
Colin Powell chickened out taking out Saddam early.
Trump isn't interested in forever wars. For crying out loud he wants to end the war between Poot and Zelinkski.
Sadly the Nato expansionists will not pull back.
Remember that Epstein's father in law was an Israeli spy chief. Not the spy chief for the whole Jewish population of the planet, many, many of who cannot abide Netanyahu, but a spy chief for a specific country in the Middle East. I believe that Trump's heart is in the right place, but I believe that the forces at play are too powerful for him to resist.
Look what they did to him at Mar a Lago. He was negotiating with the government about the papers he was keeping or had to give back, all the while keeping them under safekeeping, when the neocon deep state raided his home and sniffed his wife's panties, to boot.
Well, this is the same pattern with this war. We were negotiating with Iran, all as a tactic to get them to let down their guard, for an attempted regime decapitation by Israel. It's the same pattern as Mar a Lago. It's now these people play, they are psychopaths, they engage in machiavellian thinking and are willing to break rules that most normal people would never think of breaking.
The war in Ukraine and the current war in the ME are connected Peachy. This is all part of a much bigger - and global - conflict currently ongoing involving aligned powers and their proxies.
I don't think Ukraine's worsening situation and the decision by Israel to strike Iran at this time are unconnected. I was an army officer for 20 years...I no longer believe in coincidences.
"Trump isn't interested in forever wars."
And yet he approved this attack. He had to have, all of the American supplied weaponry and the F-35s used have end-use agreements which give the US veto power over how they are used, and Trump didn't veto it.
"I don't think Ukraine's worsening situation and the decision by Israel to strike Iran at this time are unconnected."
I agree, the ongoing military collapse of Ukraine is what took months or years off the timer the neocons had set for the Iran attack. This situation is getting desperate, and people are getting desperate on all sides. This war is existential for Iran, why wouldn't they take out the West's oil supply, which they can do, even if it makes their "friends" unhappy. What would you do if you were being killed and your friend told you that you couldn't damage their property just to stay alive, you would wonder what kind of "friends" that you had, is what you would do, then you would do what you had to do.
JAQ - you assume this is a forever war. Well, looking backwards - it kind of it. Funded by people like Obama.
Sorry - Not interested in Tucker Carlson talking points.
You guys who get caught up in the manichaeistic view of this conflict, pushed by the propaganda wing of it. It's no coincidence that Obama and Pelosi ended prohibition of propagandizing Americans by gutting the Smith-Mundt Act passed after seeing what propaganda did to Europe. But if you get caught up in the latest propaganda blast, and they are designed to give you boosts of dopamine, you are missing a fascinating chess game.
A lot of people here claim to be history buffs, but when it comes to applying their knowledge to understanding today's conflicts, they pretend that history somehow ended with WWII or something.
As William Faulkner said ""The past is never dead. It’s not even past."
"Not interested in Tucker Carlson talking points."
I don't even know how to listen to Tucker Carlson, but he sounds like a sensible fellow. But this is what is called "thought-stopping" language in the language of cults and propaganda. It is employed to keep people from exploring uncomfortable lines of inquiry, uncomfortable to their world view.
One of the ways that humans perceive things to be true is by how easy they are to think, "cognitive ease" and they think that things that are hard to think, hard to understand, can't be true, and they therefore reject arguments that ask them to question their own assumptions.
I'm not a history buff. I do like truth and fairness.
"Once again, we all live on planet Earth, and theoretically are all bound by the same rules, especially when it comes to global non-proliferation agreements and IAEA declarations for atomic energy programs both peaceful and not. Those rules include Israel."
Rules? In a knife fight!?!?
Sorry to be flippant, but it is on point. Rules need to be enforced, and at the level of nations, there is no enforcement regime.
For what it's worth, Israel did not sign the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. Iran did. (at least, according to Wikipedia).
This conflict goes back, at least, to the first actual world war, no, not The Great War, the Seven Years War. Probably back as far as William the Conqueror.
Somebody did a study that showed that a disproportionate number of students at Oxford and Cambridge had Norman surnames. Just one of those interesting facts that catches one's attention.
"I do like truth and fairness."
"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." —Sun Tzu, The Art of War
If you refuse to understand the other side's arguments, and you refuse to examine your own side's true motivations, well, you are just an NPC, a Non Player Character.
and yet you misunderstand about half of all conflicts, shocker,
RideSpaceMountain said...
"So, we elected Trump because he's 'the peace candidate' and 'america first', and the next thing you know we're going to war with Iran."
We're technically not @ war with Iran yet...technically. I did love his little "America first means IRAN CANNOT HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPON".
World peace means Israel can not only have a nuclear weapon...but several of them...using materials and technology stolen from US (bridgewire detonators and uranium pitchblende), and a nuclear program...which it doesn't have to declare for some reason. World peace means Iran can't have one.
I'm glad Donald has cleared this multi-decade dichotomy up for us in the most contorted logic possible.
6/17/25, 10:12 AM
RSM - you do realize one is a radical Islamist expansionist dictatorship and the other is a democracy correct? You do understand that one is the world's leading sponsor of terrorism and the other just wants to be left alone? That one wants to dominate the entire world and the other just wants to cure cancer? Do you really not understand the difference? It's the difference between giving a gun to a Charles Manson and giving one to a SEAL. You cannot be this obtuse.
How is the NORK's rhetoric of "destroy the American imperialists" any different
It's certainly not different except for location on the planet. Iran, in the very heart of the Middle East, has been positioned to cause and has caused enormous turmoil among its neighbors. For all of his bluster, Kim Jong Un in contrast has caused considerably less trouble. It cannot be overstated that the motivating impulse in Iran of the Ayatollah is Islamic religious zeal. The NORKs are simply commie pinkos. Their zeal is pretty much limited to the survival and fattening of the Supreme Leader and his cadre of ruling despots while sheltered under China's wing.
Consistency is far down the list of preferred outcomes. We shouldn't let that preference get in the way of good enough.
- Krumhorn
FormerLawClerk said...
I can assure ROceanII that Donald Trump will get tremendous support from MAGA if he goes to war with Iran owing to the fact that Iran invaded the United States in 1979 and took land from us that they still occupy - resulting in the death of 8 soldiers.
We haven't forgotten about that and we're going to get that land back if it takes a thousand years and we intend to avenge the deaths of eight Americans in the process.
6/17/25, 10:17 AM
Don't forget Khobar Towers. And all the soldiers killed in Iraq by Iran and its proxies. They have quite a lot of American blood on their hands. It's bizarre that people like RC Ocean are OK with that and now that we finally have an opportunity to pay them back, his Jew hatred is so great that he doesn't want that. I guess spilling American blood is OK with him as long as he can get to the Jews.
Good lord! I am agreeing with Kakistocracy!!! Has the world gone mad? Am I crazy? Is he? What is going on???
Achilles said...
The other thing that people miss is the people of Iran hate the mullahs.
All you need to do is decapitate their leadership and provide a no fly zone and the people of Iran will take care of the rest.
I do not expect any kind of US invasion or serious involvement particularly since Israel is doing all of the heavy lifting already.
There is potential for massive gains with minimal investment in this situation. Anyone who analyzes this without morality or tribal hatred clouding their judgement will see what should be done.
6/17/25, 10:27 AM
Some people hate Jews more than they love America.
had some one put a bullet in AQ Khan and half of his team mates,
RideSpaceMountain said...
narciso said, "its still a good question, to ask where does this end..."
It doesn't end, narciso
It never ends
It will never end
My great-great-grandchildren will still be dealing with this shit somehow
Forever and ever and ever.
6/17/25, 10:40 AM
Actually we finally DO see an end for the first time in history. Abraham accords are a literal miracle. All the powers in the ME are looking for peace. Except Iran. If USA allows Israel to crush them and take out the government it is the beginning of prosperity for that area. Literally any leadership - as mentioned even ISIS - would be better for world peace. If all it costs is a few bunker busters from us and helping arm a resistance - or offer to evacuate their leadership to Russia - it will be the beginning of a peaceful ME.
RideSpaceMountain said...
@Achilles, for my entire adult life, America has been involved in Middle Eastern wars. For many of the commenters here, most if not all of their adult lives, America has been involved in Middle Eastern wars. In other words, for the better part of 1/3 of this countries history, the United States has been fighting wars in some fashion in a region 7000 miles away on the other side of a fucking ocean.
It has spent untold blood, treasure, and prestige involving itself with sheep thieves, something that I don't think anyone involved in the other 2/3 of this country's history ever intended this country to do, or be about, or certainly involving the vast sums aforementioned that would shock the living daylights out of them.
Israel is an independent country, one that - although an ally - has lied to us and treated us extremely poorly and a relationship that, in my opinion, has always caused us far more harm than good. This is Israel's existential crisis, not ours.
It's a new century. Let's do things differently this time.
6/17/25, 10:56 AM
1) Did you know that the world economy runs on oil? And that a substantial amount of oil comes from the ME? It's true. You can look it up. Do you know that in the 1970's the ME dictatorships used oil as a weapon against the west? Again true. You can look it up. Either the West guarantees energy to the world or Iran does. Given that choice I want USA to be the policeman. I would love if there were a democratic pro-West country we could send weapons to so they can be a springboard for American power. Even better if they do all the fighting against radical Islam and all we have to do is give the weapons.
2) Actually now that I think about it, there IS such a country. Israel. They do all the fighting for us and all we do is send them weapons. No American blood to be spilled. And they do all the hard work for us. They are the guarantor - in fighting Iran - that oil flows and thus that we have an economy and are not living in the middle ages.
3) Do you really think that Iran only wants to fight with Israel? Are you that naive? Was it Kate, Michael's wife in the Godfather? You think that if Iran nuked Israel they would be done and they just want to be left alone? What evidence do you have of that? They are the most aggressive islamic country and seek world domination. You can't be this naive.
RideSpaceMountain said...
Regime change in Iran will simply result in a civil war...which might be just as good. Those that oppose the Ayatollah aren't numerous enough to decide the question when half the country are still hardliners. And there's still the question of foreign intervention (China, Russia, Norks), which means the question of a larger war between aligned-powers is left hanging out there.
Regime change hasn't worked as well for American interests as Americans have hoped for the last 80 years. What's that quote about doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results?
6/17/25, 11:12 AM
The difference is that Iran was a cosmopolitan Western country before the radical islamists took over. I've seen numbers - don't know if reliable - 80% hate the mullahs. Regardless there is literally no government that could be worse for the world, particularly the West, than the current government in IRan.
RideSpaceMountain said...
"It’s time to end this never ending war."
With all due respect, the "never-ending war" in the Middle East has never been ended by more war, Peachy.
6/17/25, 11:15 AM
Egypt and Jordan have been at peace with Israel for decades. A definitive victory is what is necessary.
RideSpaceMountain said...
Once again, we all live on planet Earth, and theoretically are all bound by the same rules, especially when it comes to global non-proliferation agreements and IAEA declarations for atomic energy programs both peaceful and not. Those rules include Israel.
We do not and should not have a two-tiered system, one for everyone else and a special one just for Israel. And if that's what people - and Israelis - are saying should exist, than I am most definitely not on board.
Israel is not America's wife. She can, and should, fight her own battles especially when it appears she's more than capable of winning them.
6/17/25, 1:23 PM
Do you not understand the Islamists are coming for US? Israel is in the way, but their goal is the West. Israel is in a position to fight them in a way the West is not yet willing. You are advocating for a policy where the alligator eats us last. It's foolish.
Do you also not understand that for Israel, nukes are a defensive weapon and for Iran it is an offensive weapon? Seriously do you not understand the difference?
RideSpaceMountain said...
The war in Ukraine and the current war in the ME are connected Peachy. This is all part of a much bigger - and global - conflict currently ongoing involving aligned powers and their proxies.
Of course. And we have an opportunity with minimal investment to make some deals and create an alliance that shapes the ME in a peaceful mold for a generation. The people of the ME want this.
I don't think Ukraine's worsening situation and the decision by Israel to strike Iran at this time are unconnected. I was an army officer for 20 years...I no longer believe in coincidences.
It isn’t a coincidence. Trump loves to be the good cop. He clearly lives to announce new peace and business deals.
What he has done over the last few months is identify some assholes.
Iran and Ukraine are run by assholes that are keeping Trump from standing in front of a camera and announcing a big new business/peace deal.
I don’t expect either of those governments to last long.
@Keith, my comments stand for themselves. I think I've made my points as clearly as I can make them:
- I do not and will not countenance open-ended support for Israel by America, such as it has been since '47, or any other nation for that matter.
- I do not and will not support America's entry into this conflict or ANY further involvement in Middle Eastern wars short of helping to turn the region into trinitite.
- I do not accept Iranian non-proliferation as a legitimate American casus belli, although I do accept it as legitimate for Israel...alone.
- Donald Trump is wrong in saying helping or participating in this conflict is still putting "America First", that is complete garbage and it will hurt him politically.
There's more, but I will not delve further into semantic minutiae or take up any more space. Everyone here is familiar with my thoughts now and in previous posts, and they'll be plenty of future opportunities. It is - after all - the godforsaken Middle East.
RSM - as long as our economy is dependent on oil, we are dependent on the ME. Without oil our economy collapses and we live like cavemen. So the question is - who do you want to dominate the lifeblood of the world's economy? Your choices are us, China, or Iran. Maybe Russia as a second tier. There are no other choices. If we control the world's oil supply we have prosperity and so all the other virtues - freedom of speech, democracy, etc. ALL of the others seek world domination. If any of the others listed dominate, the world as we know it ends and we become slaves to whoever dominates the oil supply. It seems to me it is in America's best interest not to let that happen.
In general I will always support democracy and opposed totalitarianism. This is another clear cut example. If China and Taiwan are in conflict I support the democracy. If Pakistan and India are in conflict I support the democracy.
"Your choices are us..."
I always choose US. Problem solved! American oil first. American children first. American soldiers first. American families first. Wow...that was easier than I thought.
You hear that Donald? AMERICA FIRST.
Kuwait was became an independent emirate in the 1700s or earlier. It became a British protectorate in 1899. Leave Churchill out of it.
Throwing out "facts" can undercut everything one says. Down with the Theocracy!
So, we elected Trump because he's "the peace candidate" and "america first", and the next thing you know we're going to war with Iran.
'We' elected Trump for a lot of reasons. If he manages to take out your Iranian pals, it's icing on the cake.
@RSM
Sorry for the late reply. I wish nuclear weapons didn't exist. I think that sooner or later someone is going to justify using one. It's all downhill from there.
But you are changing the simple equation I laid out. We can still prevent Iran from having them in their arsenal. Too late for the others. It really is simple. Can we live with a nuclear Iran? This time we can make the choice.
(The assumption is that we aren't too late already)
The "ongoing military collapse of Ukraine" is as fictional as "Epstein's father-in-law" (he never married), US and/or Israeli overthrow of Assad (it was Syrian rebels, with the help of Turkey and Ukraine), and the idea that Iran "doesn't have and doesn't want" nukes. Jaq makes up half the stuff he writes, and grossly misrepresents the rest.
Regarding whether or not Iran already has a bomb; nuclear weapons aren't very useful unless the other guy knows you have them. Their main benefit is deterrence. Keeping it a secret is counterproductive. So, no, I don't think Iran has a bomb yet.
Israel is an obvious counter example. But everybody "knows" they do, so it's essentially the same thing. But if Iran were able to test a bomb now, I'm sure they would. It would immediately change the calculus in their favor.
"and yet you misunderstand about half of all conflicts, shocker,"
Please elaborate. Or would that put you in a position of having to say that you support things that you don't wish to admit to.
"Epstein's father-in-law" (he never married),"
Talk about a distinction without a difference. LOL.
RideSpaceMountain said...
"Your choices are us..."
I always choose US. Problem solved! American oil first. American children first. American soldiers first. American families first. Wow...that was easier than I thought.
You hear that Donald? AMERICA FIRST.
He is putting Americans first.
You are just choosing to not see what is attainable and what is being risked to gain it. The risk reward ratio here is stunning.
One thing I find particularly interesting would be to learn how much was known by all of the ME leaders Trump turned to our side during his ME trip. Every one of them wanted to see Iran gone.
Also, I'd say Israel doesn't appear to think Iran has a bomb yet and their intelligence gathering abilities, at least with respect to Iran, appear to be formidable.
If America First means going to war with Iran on behalf of Israel. Include me out.
If Donald Trump says that he doesn't give a shit what Tulsi Gabbard says about Iran and the bomb, then he should fire her, or she should resign. It's plain sight betrayal by Trump of his America First base.
If Donald Trump says that Iranians should flee Tehran, and he is doing nothing to stop it, he's the same as Joe Biden.
Oh, and narciso, if you think that Pakistan wasn't involved with al Qaeda at the behest of the United States, you should do a little reading about stuff that has come out recently.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/pakistan/weve-been-doing-dirty-work-for-us-for-3-decades-pakistan-defence-minister-on-support-for-terror-groups/articleshow/120611109.cms
I know you have a soft spot for US supported jihadi terrorists.
It's always this war that we need to support, it was always only the last war that was a grave mistake.
"This will be the last one, we swear! We can kick this habit, just one more war!"
If Trump doesn't do some really fancy footwork in the next couple of days, I am done with him. I doubt that I am the only one.
Given that Iran is a brutal tyranny that murders hundreds every year for demonstrating against the government, or (if women) showing their hair, or being gay, the war Israel is waging is not against Iran, it's against the unelected rulers of Iran, on the side of the Iranian people. Iranians inside and outside Iran have been cheering Israel's war on the mullahs and their IRGC thugs.
"nuclear weapons aren't very useful unless the other guy knows you have them. Their main benefit is deterrence. Keeping it a secret is counterproductive."
That seems like a very odd thing to say considering that's exactly what Israel has been doing this whole time.
Donald Trump is a solved problem for the neocons. Somebody has convinced him that Iran almost has the bomb, or to say that it does, and that someone is not his hand picked intelligence chief, it's one more deep state warmonger.
Yeah, Dr Weevil, tell me some more. Like when you said that the master race clause in the Ukrainian constitution was really about concern for nuclear radiation affecting the DNA of Ukrainian citizens. Then your guys accept and use depleted uranium shells on your own soil.
Your stuff just doesn't hold up. I read what you say, I wait a month, and it proves to be wrong. Oh, but I am not supposed to watch and wait for confirmation of your words, I am supposed to move on to the next trope!
It's not worth a war with Iran over what fashions women are allowed to wear there, anymore than it was worth a war over who rules over a bunch of ethnic Russians on the other side of the world.
"That seems like a very odd thing to say considering that's exactly what Israel has been doing this whole time."
I addressed that.
Can you provide an reason why, if Iran already has a bomb, they'd keep it a secret, given the current circumstances?
There's some nostalgia for the Shah, but his government was not a beacon of freedom and democracy for the Middle East, either. He had the Savak to keep a lid on dissent. He was installed by the CIA after the ouster of the elected prime minister in 1953. .
Can Jaq give any examples of stuff I write that turns out to be wrong a month later?
I can give numerous examples of things he writes that are proven wrong at the moment he writes them. For instance, depleted uranium is only dangerous if ingested, so as long as Ukrainians don't eat any of it or breath it in, they'll be OK. The fact is that the Ukrainian constitution has no 'racial purity' clause in it, much less any 'master race' clause, and anyone who says it does is a liar or a fool, and someone who says it over and over even after being shown to be wrong, as Jaq does, is a damned liar.
It is also a fact that the Russians are using chemical weapons in Ukraine, and using cluster bombs on civilians - they killed 20 in Kyiv last night by collapsing an entire section of a 9-story apartment block. But Jaq doesn't care about Russian war crimes, does he?
Of course, this is the same Jaq who was worrying a few posts back that the Iranian mullahs might be replaced by "head chopper". I pointed out that the mullahs ARE the original head choppers, and subsidize and arm most of the others: Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis, just to name three. What he wrote was so obviously and stupidly false that any honest man would have slunk away and never showed his face here again - or at least chosen a new pseudonym.
The strongest criticism of the Iranian mullahs Jaq can come up with is that they control "what fashions women are allowed to wear there". When a woman in Iran is condemned to death, as often happens, the mullahs order the executioners to rape her first, so she won't (they think) go to heaven.
You brought it up as a justification for war. Why is that?
I brought what up as justification for what war?
So many people talk as if we are going to get involved as if no war is complete without us. I say we aren't needed or particularly wanted. Israel is doing what we keep urging Europe to do - take care of your own military issues. Israel's issue was Iran. It was attacked on Oct 7 as part of an Iranian general plan to surround it on every side, bombard it, wealen it, invade it, and destroy it through atrocities worse than Hitler's. The Israelis have been moving around the perimeter, wiping out Iranian backed militias. They are crunching up and down the Gaza strip, looking for Hamas; turned to Lebanon, carried out the Grim Beeper and then bombed the Hezbollah rocket arsenal into impotence; Syria had a regime change coincidentally; the Houthis have caused Yemen to lose several ports due to Israeli bombing and are now down to tossing one bomb a day at Israel which is weak and pathetic whatever they may think. Miltias down but israel would never dare attack Iran. Israel carried out a regime change in the Iranian Armed Forces. They are now roaming the Iranian skies bombing their select list of targets - the rocket launchers, the rocket factories, the rocket fuel precursors, the support buildings at nuclear sites. But how can they do regime change without us or how can they actually stop the nuclear program without us? How?
Here's my suggestion how. Let's wait and see if they have a clever, daring plan.
While we wait, consider this - Christianity, Islam and all forms of Marxism are descended from these people; they formed the religion or the social religion of all the earth's people. Or think of this. The Persians, the ancestors of the Iranians, had them captive some millennia back and sent them back to Israel with money to rebuild their Temple. Just some thinking points.
Will Jaq answer a simple question? Time will tell!
I don't see how I've "justified" any war in this thread. What can Jaq be talking about? The US and Israel have been at war with Iran for 46 years, and those are wars that the usurping mullahs started, and have pursued vigorously since. If Trump sends planes to help Israel free Iran from oppressions, that's a good thing, and requires no justification. It means ending a war, not starting one. Of course, Ukraine also needs no justification for war against Russia: Russia started it 11 years ago, and shows no willingness to stop it, or even to pretend to follow the Geneva Convention while continuing it. So what is Jaq talking about?
"or (if women) showing their hair" - DW
How stupid do you have to be to claim that my point about women's hair was a justification of war? Jaq-stupid - a lot like jack-ass!
My point was that Jaq's worries that the Khamenei might be replace by a government of "head choppers" is simply insane, because Khamenei, and Khomeini before him, and all the mullahs, ARE THE ORIGINAL HEAD CHOPPERS! They do all the things ISIS and the Taleban and HAMAS and Hezbollah, and the Houthis do. Overthrowing them would not bring in "head choppers", it would remove head choppers from power, because that's what they are. They are also the main source of money and weapons for other factions of head choppers, specifically HAMAS, Hezbollah, and the Houthis. How obtuse do you have to be not to understand this?
Is it a "war" if we drop several moabs on Fordow and a couple of other sites and then pull back?
Trump is never going to put boots on the ground in Iran. I don't think he is interested in a US forced regime change either. He only has one goal. No nukes. He'd just as happy with a negotiated deal as with MOABs I think.
Get rid of Iran's nuclear program and the Saudis will let us build and monitor their nuclear plant to Gold Standard. Let Iran get a bomb and the entire MidEast proliferates. That's not a good thing for anybody.
Whether Iran has a bomb yet or not they have a lot of dirty material to spread around Central Park and environs.
High risk, high reward as Achilles said. If you had your eyes open you knew that when you voted for him.
To put it another way, we can argue whether it's a good idea or not for Israel to try to overthrow the mullahs or to destroy their nuclear facilities, or for the US to help them do one or both of these.
You can even worry that if the mullahs are overthrown, something just as bad or not much better might replace them. But worrying that they might be replaced by "head choppers", as if they are not themselves the very headquarters and guiding force of all the head choppers in the world is UTTERLY MORONIC. But that's our Jaq.
I find Dr Weevil quite persuasive in this instance.
Jaq said...
Donald Trump is a solved problem for the neocons. Somebody has convinced him that Iran almost has the bomb, or to say that it does, and that someone is not his hand picked intelligence chief, it's one more deep state warmonger.
Your problem is that Trump is not as stupid or gullible as you want to paint him out as. This plan has been set up over months. It isn't some bullshit about the bomb I ran will no longer be able to get.
Trump has been talking to all of the governments in the middle east. The last several days were clearly orchestrated and they were organized between everyone in the region.
Every country in the middle east wanted the Mullahs out.
Even more importantly Starlink is open to the Iranian people and they are cutting loose on the internet.
You need to take in the entire context here. The US might drop a couple bombs on the last nuke plant. But our involvement in this is going to be so minimal it is absurd.
And you know that any aid provided by the US is going to come with oil deals.
It is really too bad that people cannot approach every situation as it's own problem and try to pigeonhole everything into their simplistic views. This is nothing like Ukraine where it has become obvious that Zelensky is the asshole in the situation.
Achilles is right. Trump is aiming for nothing less than ME peace. This isn't a peacemeal deal. Lack of Iranian drones hurts Russia which gives Trump a bit more leverage on that front. Rescinding tariffs on Syria. More signers of the AA. The Riviera in Gaza with a seaside golf course just right over there. If he makes this all happen he might even get a Nobel.
If you had your eyes open you knew that when you voted for him.
It as if the people saying we were fooled into believing Trump a pacifist, particularly in relation to Iran, forgot his actions during his first administration. Trump did limit actions to Iraq, but Iran military leaders paid a heavy price for venturing out of Iran.
"Countering lies and hearsay - is half of what Trump does everyday."
And the rest of his day is taken up with promulgating lies and name-calling.
"...I’ve no doubt in my mind, the level of agreement there was in relation to the words that were then issued immediately after."
I'm glad he was sure. But sure about what exactly? I love the weasly words of political lying pieces of s--t like him, to be clear about who I think is a political lying piece of s--t, which is him.
Jaq said...
"Trump isn't interested in forever wars."
"And yet he approved this attack. He had to have, all of the American supplied weaponry and the F-35s used have end-use agreements which give the US veto power over how they are used, and Trump didn't veto it."
Good lord. Right now you're neck and neck with DD for the missing the point award.
We are not at war with Iran. Further Israel was going to attack Iran whether with or without our approval. We, the US, are assisting an ally. You didn't scream bloody murder when Biden shipped off billions to Ukraine in money and supplies. Mostly money. We are not at war with Iran. Israel is at war with Iran. Iran is currently at war with Israel. Not the United States.
Achillies has given the most reasoned expression of how this is going to play out.
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