NPR reports.
In a letter sent to members of the church, the Most Rev. Sean W. Rowe — the presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church — said... "In light of our church's steadfast commitment to racial justice and reconciliation and our historic ties with the Anglican Church of Southern Africa, we are not able to take this step."... Rowe noted his announcement comes as the Trump administration has otherwise all but frozen the refugee program, with Afrikaners among the few — and possibly only — people granted entry as refugees since January.
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186 comments:
Diversity politics in progressive sects.
"we are not able to take this step"
What step? Is there something wrong with South Africans that I'm not aware of? Are they morally reprehensible for some reason? What?
Explains so much about that faith…
Totally not racist at all, though.
...but since they're operating on a Federal Grant which terms they've chosen not to honor, then perhaps those funds should be recovered. And since they're in violation of the discrimination laws, perhaps their exempt status as a religious institution should be subject to review as well.
One after another, the Left is forced to choose between its preferred identity groups. First, women v. "transgender women." Now, non-whites v. refugees.
It simply cannot provide white persons with any protected status, ever. So, "racial justice" wins this battle.
I don't actually know where white South Africans fall on the scale of refugee status, but this will be enlightening.
They're farmers though, so your cats and dogs are probably safe, not to mention the city ducks.
And they won't understand why young white men, who haven't seen all the 80s movies where the eviiiiiiiillllllllll villains were all South African, continue to shift to the new GOP which is led by a guy who marries supermodels and builds sky scrapers. It is a puzzelment.
Good. Get all the churches out of the immigration racket.
@D. D. Driver
Thanks, please keep that up.
While I don't believe that Trump is always playing 4-D chess, this latest move was either totally brilliant or incredibly lucky --- or both. If that was all it took to get the churches out of the colonization business, we should have done it years ago.
The more intelligent white South Africans (i.e. many Jews) have been emigrating here for decades. Even in backwater Memphis I know a few.
The RC and Catholic Charities aren't any better when it comes to facilitating the Third World invasion, of course.
See, the problem is that these people are coming into the country legally and they do not belong to criminal organizations like Tren de Aragua or MS-13 or the Somali pirates. Of course liberals have no interest in bringing them in.
Folks like D. D. Driver think food magically shows up on supermarket loading docks do they don’t see the need for farmers.
I never met any Afrikaners but the other white South Africans I've known were lovely people. Too nice to leave or admit why they left.
The moral purity of the genocidal extermination of white people is a fundamental tenet of contemporary Episcopalianism.
“Moral opposition….”
It’s immoral to help people who say they need help? A church says that?
Something in Denmark is rotten to the core and maybe Trump is a chosen instrument of divine intervention. Those who have ears let them hear. All things work together for good. I’m rejoicing. I don’t know about y'all.
Has Trump “all but frozen” the refugee program? And if so, what are his plans? Seems like the church may have made a rash decision.
The Episcopalians want to take up the White Man's Burden to save their souls (at taxpayer expense apparently) - this is inconsistent with that.
Could a color of the same shade be a different race?
It's not just white... peach men voting in affirmative protestation. South Africa is the quintessential demonstration of Hutu vs Tutsi conflicts, Kenyan elite vs deplorables, Congolese vs Rwandans, Mandela's Xhosa vs Zulu with native collateral damage, etc.
Eventually people will just recognize that the Democrat party is defined and founded on racism.
The only other real point of the democrat party is to take money from people and give it to cronies and to import exploitable labor.
Wow.
I'm pretty sure it's Episcopalian clergy protesting outside that ICE facility in NJ. It was also an Episcopal Bishop who lectured Trump at the inaugural prayer service. Tells you all you need to know.
As has been evident for quite a while, the democrat party are the biggest racists/bigots in the country.
DD Driver - are you White Trash?
The South Africans will be OK. This is really more about the Episcopal church and what it has become. So many good friends of mine, even clergy. Wonderful people.
So sad to see how they are led. I guess these South Africans are "not our kind of people" now. This will never occur to my friends. Their security is protected by the fact that indeed, it is rude to point this out. Necessary, but rude.
Seems like the US is helping the ANC with their ethnic cleansing. Win-win-win!
Just tell the Bishop that every time you house an Afrikaner, a Zulu gets his farm. That should get his miter throbbing.
Maybe the next step can bring Orangemen over here from Northern Ireland to solve that conflict. The entire population of NI isn't even 2 million, and the Prots are already under 50%, so we would barely notice them. Let the Fenians and their global-southern friends have the whole island. Solves Brexit too. The Irish Sea can be a hard border.
Heck, even offer green cards to Ukrainians who don't want to be Russian and vice versa, to fix that human Rubik's cube. Of course, that war isn't about the people on either side.
JSM
"If that was all it took to get the churches out of the colonization business, we should have done it years ago."
One down, several more to go.
@ron winkleheimer
I got you, bro! It's going to be a fun four years.
Yesterday on Clay & Buck (wonder if they read the Althouse blog like Rush did), two people called in. One was a farmer from SD who hires South Africans to custom harvest his wheat.
This South Africans told him about how Blacks attack farmers. In one case, the husband/father had his legs and arms amputated. While he was still alive, he was forced to watch while his wife and daughters were raped and murdered.
Racial justice, indeed.
Via NPR's "Morning Edition" today. If this particular religious institution desires to "self-defund" from federal grant support, due to some internal and unique discriminatory policy, well then, good.
https://www.npr.org/2025/05/13/nx-s1-5395887/episcopal-church-will-not-help-resettle-white-afrikaners-citing-moral-opposition
I had a white law school classmate from South Africa. He was way ahead of the curve and got out early.
I did not have [checks notes] denying services to refugees being hunted down in their home country because they are white on my bingo card. No sir!
Well, if there still were any doubt that Henry VIII made a terrible mistake in breaking with Rome, this resolves it.
The great Victor Davis Hanson pointed out that it was no coincidence Trump nominated to lead Gov roguencies people who had been targeted by those same agencies.
This one seems like a freebee.
'Here... you say you are in the business of helping people, help these people.'
'Oh no, we don't help that kind of people'.
There you have it.
...but since they're operating on a Federal Grant which terms they've chosen not to honor, then perhaps those funds should be recovered. And since they're in violation of the discrimination laws, perhaps their exempt status as a religious institution should be subject to review as well.
Good points, Aggie.
I did not have [checks notes] denying services to refugees being hunted down in their home country because they are white on my bingo card. No sir!
For the love of all that is fair and just, somebody please get a hold of the meeting notes? Maybe somebody recorded the Zoom meeting? Something jotted on an envelope perhaps?
The Episcopalians are ending a "nearly four-decade" relationship with the US Govt. in resettling South African refugees. That means that this relationship began no earlier than 1986. Apartheid ended in May 1990. Mandela was elected president there in 1994, replacing white De Klerk. The country has been governed by blacks ever since. So the Episcopalians have apparently been okay with resettling blacks fleeing South Africa for the 30 years that blacks have been ruling over the country, but now objects to helping whites. And this while South Africa has enacted new laws that allows the government to seize land that it deems to have been taken from communities since 1913 as restitution and allows the government to seize farmland without compensation regardless of its prior history. Violent crime has risen considerably (the country has the third-highest murder rate in the world), as has the incident of violent attacks on white farmers. These specific farmers and their families assert claims of "victimisation, violence and hateful rhetoric against white people in South Africa along with legislation providing for the expropriation of land without compensation," all of which would be more than ample to grant them asylum if they were any other race - hell, the Dems are demanding the return of a gang-banger because he fears violence from a rival gang.
You stay classy, Episcopalians (although I guess what can you expect from a church that was formed exclusively so that King Henry could get a divorce).
Don't worry. Catholic Charities will help them, right? Right?
If the color of someone's skin is your deciding factor, you're a racist. This church is proclaiming their racism out in the open for all to see!
Sad.
Don't worry. Catholic Charities will help them, right? Right?
Pass the plate... I mean, the popcorn.
Has Trump “all but frozen” the refugee program?
When the "all but" formulation is used, particularly about a supposed Trump action, the answer is "no."
I'm going to finish out this choir season - Pentecost is coming up - and then I'm out, with a letter to the rector of my church as to why. I am not cut out for non-liturgical worship, so I guess I'm going to join the ranks of the unchurched. Time for sermons in stones, books in the running brooks, etc., I guess.
So they hate white people. Got it. Such virtue signalers. I guess they aren't people of GOD like they claim to be.
What spiteful little fools these purple-haired lesbian spinsters are. What better validation of the genocidal anti-white "Great Replacement" could one ask for?
These South African people don't need charity anyway. They will be productive taxpaying citizens within a month or two.
When the Apartheid government of South Africa fell, I predicted there would be civil war within five years. Clearly, I was wrong. The Rwandans could cook up a good genocide in half a decade, but South African blacks aren't that task-oriented. But they're getting there.
Julius Malena told supporters, “We must be able to explain to our people what black consciousness is and why it cannot coexist with the idea that white people are inherently superior, and one of the two must die.”
Sounds positively Episcopalian.
“So the Trump admin, they’re saying that essentially these white South Africans assimilate better, and they’re also not as much of a security risk,” Yamiche Alcindor whined. “That’s really causing a lot of of of people to be appalled, frankly.”
Another Episcopalian heard from.
I visited South Africa on vacation 3 summers ago. Trump is lying about the state of affairs there. Guessing Musk put him up to this.
since they're operating on a Federal Grant which terms they've chosen not to honor, then perhaps those funds should be recovered. And since they're in violation of the discrimination laws, perhaps their exempt status as a religious institution should be subject to review as well.
This is the way. It's long past time we used the Left's own weapons to annihilate it. Not only should all taxpayer funds be disgorged from this criminal RICO racket of a church, but a lot of these genocidally racist scum hiding behind clerical collars need to go to prison for conspiracy against civil rights. No mercy. Remember the words of Saul Alinsky: Make the individuals hurt, not the institutions.
Tommyesq: "a church that was formed exclusively so that King Henry could get a divorce"
I wouldn't say exclusively. The main purpose of the Anglican church, along with the other northern Protestant churches, was and is to protect the northern peoples from domination by the big Catholic dynasties: Spain, France, and the Holy Roman Empire.
True, had Henry and Kate been able to crank out a son or two, he would have been content to make alliances with the Catholic powers, including Kate's own relatives in Spain and the Empire. But they weren't, so he didn't. Then the thing got a momentum of its own.
In parallel, the Scandinavians, Dutch, Scots, and half the Germans had no fertility problems and still saw the logic of a religion/ideology that kept them out from under the continental powers.
But anyway, 500 years later, postmodern national Protestant churches, including the Protestant Episcopal Church of the United States of America (its full official title), have rejected the national project and so of course forswear any responsibility to protect their Protestant Dutch fellow travellers.
JSM
It's hard for me to parse the Episcopal-church statement in such a way that I can see their logic that the "church's steadfast commitment to racial justice and reconciliation and ... historic ties with the Anglican Church of Southern Africa" would require them to not help _these_ particular families who are in fear of their lives.
But a Sojourners (they're still around?) article from February gives what's presumably their SA Anglican partners' view on the issue: According to them:
• SA government actions like the expropriation law aren't really as bad as Trump says ("its not happening"),
• and besides that, they're necessary to right past wrongs ("Its good actually").
• So Trump's withholding of Aid to SA in order to pressure SA to stop legal actions such as expropriation and extrajudicial violence (You're overreacting") hurts everyone in SA:
https://sojo.net/articles/news/south-african-christians-condemn-trump-weaponizing-racial-politics.
I am not cut out for non-liturgical worship, so I guess I'm going to join the ranks of the unchurched.
Have you been to one of the "Continuing Anglican" churches that still use the 1928 Book of Common Prayer? Especially those Anglo-Catholic parishes in the Anglican Province of Christ the King. You'll get all the liturgy your heart could desire, and "smells and bells" too.
"While I don't believe that Trump is always playing 4-D chess, this latest move was either totally brilliant or incredibly lucky --- or both. If that was all it took to get the churches out of the colonization business, we should have done it years ago"
Jeez, I have to think it was deliberate. Given the reliable knee-jerkiness of Wokery, you wouldn't have to be a genius to know they'd shy from White people of any nationality. And South African White people? Imagine the effect on the proggy Boomer who came of age in the '70's and '80's and for whom the world never changes!
One deft slice lays the whole "refugee" bamboozle open to evisceration. Because Progs have to tug on the wound.
Moar refugees like this.
And they won't understand why young white men, who haven't seen all the 80s movies where the eviiiiiiiillllllllll villains were all South African, continue to shift to the new GOP which is led by a guy who marries supermodels and builds sky scrapers.
When was the last time anyone here saw a movie in which the villains were not white South Africans, white skinheads, white Neo-Nazis, white businessmen, or white conservative politicians? Seems like decades, although I don't watch many movies.
Readering said...
I visited South Africa on vacation 3 summers ago. Trump is lying about the state of affairs there. Guessing Musk put him up to this.
Nobody believes a word you say. You have absolutely no credibility to the point you can be classified as deranged.
Now please go comment on the Biden/Tapper thread about how you knew Biden was demented all along.
The moral purity of the genocidal extermination of white people is a fundamental tenet of contemporary Episcopalianism.
Maybe I need to add a fourth item to the Holy Sacraments of the Church of the Left:
Abortion, sodomy, collective punishment, and white genocide.
"I am not cut out for non-liturgical worship"
I'm going to suggest a Lutheran church affiliated with Lutheran Churches in Mission for Christ (LCMC) that offers a traditional service. Under no circumstances should you attend a Lutheran Church affiliated with the ELCA.
Episcopal Church membership has fallen 23% during the last decade.
I wonder why.
...for whom the world never changes!
Reminds me of the Hiroo Onoda story: "... one of the most extraordinary figures in modern military history. A Japanese intelligence officer, Onoda remained in hiding for nearly three decades after World War II had officially ended, refusing to surrender because he believed the war was still ongoing."
Readering: did you go to the remote agricultural regions - not the tourist wineries or locovore B&Bs? The atrocities are alleged to occur in the deep rural areas, where even if the authorities wanted to help, they can't get there in time.
Do you think any of the atrocities would have been reported in the media available to you in the tourist/business areas? Or that anyone, black, white, right or left, would share rumors with a foreign stranger?
You were in the position of a traveler to 1850 Charleston whose host tells him how happy the slaves are.
JSM
"Robert Flandrau said...
Don't worry. Catholic Charities will help them, right? Right?"
Well at least one branch has said they are aiding in resettling the Afrikaner refugees.
Jamie, the Anglican Church of North America, (ACNA) was formed by churches that broke away from the Episcopal Church due to the wokeness and other doctrinal failures of the Episcopal Church. The youtube channel "Ready to Harvest" covers all of the reorganiztional activities of Christianity today.
Good news. Easier than terminating the flow of money to the Anglicans.
Very, very progressive path and slope. Now, do albinophobia and show your true colors, your Diversity, Equivocation, and Indoctrination.
Episcopal Church membership has fallen 23% during the last decade.
That's coming after three or four previous decades of decline. My own parents left it in the 80's.
The church worked very hard to deserve it.
I would like to see black women and girls who are victims of South Africa's horrific rape culture granted refugee status too.
The white farmers have literally been told to leave by the government, so they definitely qualify as refugees. Race legally counts: sex does but is applied almost exclusively to LGBTQ. Too bad, women.
I saw an enormous amount of corruption and bias when I worked in refugee resettlement. The Somalis and Afghan Muslims we brought here demanded lifelong social welfare, refused to work, and were often not families at all, just hordes of young men with the women left behind. The Somalis were frequently warlords oppressing their own people back home.
The religious and other groups being paid to "resettle" refugees were a mixed bag. Some even seemed to like the deeply misogynistic cultures we were importing. We were definitely expected to show the refugees more respect for their culture than our own. Lots of refugee workers are disgruntled, leftist whiners who hate America.
But not all. I had a great boss. We worked with great police to help vulnerable female refugees. And refugees from communism were grateful and hard-working. They couldn't understand the negative attitudes of some American placement workers towards America.
To really understand modern South Africa, read "People Who Have Stolen From Me." Great book. I only wish it was longer.
ACNA description at Ready to Harvest-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yBqXT02zkM
Why are there people complaining about these ethically Europeans leaving an area they colonized 4 centuries ago. Given the politics of those complaining, I would have though they believed it was a good thing, but somehow they are upset with the process, not the result.
Great point about Federal grants, Aggie.
This is a twofer. Gets the EPS, with all their racist woke angendas, out of the resettlement business and off the government dime. Brilliant!
The window lickers are upset because there are NGOs backing these people so there are no kickbacks.
Readering lies. It's what he does.
I visited South Africa on vacation 3 summers ago. Trump is lying about the state of affairs there. Guessing Musk put him up to this.
I've visited the USA off and on from 2016-2020. In fact, I think it was more on than off. The media was lying about the state of affairs there. I wonder who put them up to that?
"I visited South Africa on vacation 3 summers ago."
Readering should choose her vacation package tours with a sharper eye for an intellectually sound itinerary. For this year, may I suggest the French cuisine tour of West Texas?
The Episcopalians are what all of Christianity would be like had Jesus been an HR manager instead of a carpenter.
"I visited South Africa on vacation 3 summers ago."
Some people brag about visiting Europe and receiving European visitors, and gush over what smart people they are, so humane and reasonable and rational, not at all like the white-trash bible-thumping Americans they plainly despise. They fail completely to realize that on both sides of these encounters, there is a self-selected elite that is not representative of the great masses of the people on either side of the Atlantic. Most Americans will never go to Europe, and most Europeans will never go to America. Most self-congratulatory white leftists who are educated beyond their intellects would hate the average European too, if they ever encountered him. Their superficial generalizations about the superiority of Europe and Europeans are worthless to anyone but others like themselves.
Readering's smug assurances about the realities of life in South Africa, on the strength of a two-week tour of picturesque wineries and well-guarded hotel beaches and quaint B&B's are of the same sort.
Long story short: Trump did it so it's wrong.
I'm not making general pronouncements about life in SA. I'm saying Trump is lying.
So, they're in favor of "racial reconcilation" so they've stood by silently while Boer farmers have been murdered and are against resettling White south africans in the USA and treating them as refugees.
Is that what Jesus would do?
Just more evidence the Episcopalian Church - like the Church of England - has little to do with morality or Christianity. Its just political.
Its hard to see this action as being motivated by anything other than hatred of White South Africans. Maybe if they were gay...
>Readering said...
I visited South Africa on vacation 3 summers ago. Trump is lying about the state of affairs there.<
You went there on vacation. And you saw no evidence of bad things happening to Whites...on your Kruger National Park guided safari, or on your winery touring at Stellenbosch and Paarl. Wow, that's impressive!
I've hitchhiked all over South Africa, for three months. From this I have many White South African friends with whom I have corresponded regularly since. Things are bad there for them.
You don't know shit about South Africa.
Trump does not know about South Africa. There is no white refugee problem. That's the falsehood the Episcopal refugee folks are reacting to.
You want to understand the Reformation, follow the money.
Biden destroyed our nation with millions of male illegals, sex trafficking and child abuse. and you leftists are whining about what?
"You want to understand the Reformation, follow the money."
I just gave a class covering that last Sunday. Technically it was a class on why Luther wrote the 95 Theses, but I also covered why Luther didn't end up burned at the stake like earlier reformers.
Episcopals: Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Maybe Winnie Mandela will share some of her burning tire necklaces with the church.
"There is no white refugee problem."
You'll have excuse us if we don't take your word for that.
“Trump does not know about South Africa. There is no white refugee problem. That's the falsehood the Episcopal refugee folks are reacting to.”
But he knows their most famous immigrant very well. And who has his ear, on a daily basis. So, yes, I expect that Trump knows far more about the White refugee problem in SA than you do. Yes, and he has a CIA that he can task with the job, and a DNI who can make sure that the job got done.
The government has officially announced that the property of white farmers will be confiscated without compensation.
Thousands of white farmers and their families have been attacked by black mobs and massacred, often after gang rapes and the most cruel tortures.
The guy who is supposed to be the next President leads large crowds of blacks in singing "Kill the Boer".
99% of the Third World invaders that reach our soil do not face real and present danger of this magnitude. And 90% of them are surly young men of military age, not actual refugees with their wives and children.
And self-hating white leftists like Readering welcome the Third World invasion, and deplore providing sanctuary for threatened white farmers. These people are the most stupid and evil and treasonous among us. They are our very worst enemies. They are rats and lice and termites. They are cancer. All the powers of government should be devoted to their complete and utter defeat, with a view towards running them out of the country altogether. It is impossible to hate them too much.
If I had the power, I would happily see Readering and all like her dropped off in Soweto unarmed, and the remaining white population of South Africa brought in as refugees from bloodthirsty left-wing madness.
Episcopal Church: We're not comfortable with helping this group of refugees.
Normal Person: Is it because you don't think they've been facing persecution?
Episcopal Church: No. It's not really arguable that white South Africans are being persecuted. In fact, we mostly help "refugees" who would rather live in a nicer place than where they're from, but we wouldn't hold it against anyone who was actually facing persecution.
Normal Person: So why won't you help these people?
Episcopal Church: Endless mumbo-jumbo, which boils down to: They are white.
Which boils down to their skin is the wrong color to get any of our help... That sure sounds like racism to me!
Things are falling apart faster than I imagined they would..
I'm going to finish out this choir season - Pentecost is coming up - and then I'm out …
@Jamie, your departure would have more impact if you left right now. Just sayin’
Expropriation without compensation.
The South African Expropriation Act 13 of 2024, signed into law on January 24, 2025, provides for the expropriation of property for public purposes or in the public interest. It also regulates the procedure for expropriation, including compensation, and identifies situations where nil compensation may be just and equitable. The Act repeals the previous Expropriation Act of 1975.
https://youtu.be/zlZIP02xzgY?si=N63r2ejbA1T4UcmO
Many married Catholic priests in the U.S. are former Episcopalians. A policy change by Pope John Paul II in 1980 offered a path for married Episcopal priests to continue their ministry after converting to Catholicism. My parish has had two such in years past. They had converted and served years and years ago - like early 2000s? Tells you how long the Episcopalian church has been on the down slide.
Readering. You have been a reliable foot soldier for the Democrats. As such you have lied about Trumps corruption and Bidens competency even when the facts stared you in the face. When the facts were plainly against you. You expect to be believed now?
I think Trump knows more about South Africa than you do.
Karen: Also works other way. A gay friend went from RC priest to married episcopal priest. Gay RC former colleague became Episcopal priest. Divorced and remarried RC former colleague became Episcopal priest after retiring legal career. He once invited me to mass to hear Desmond Tutu preach. Found the smells, bells and hymns appealing.
Rusty: you are the one who denies Trump's incompetence and corruption. Howard: my first post suggested Musk behind this.
My church that I have spent my whole life in, that I have given $10,000s to and hundreds if not thousands of hours of my time and effort to, has now officially become racist.
My brother in law visited South Africa on vacation two summers ago. He was beaten up by a group of vibrant youth when they expropriated his wife's purse. He's as much of an expert as Readering.
The SA Government insists the act has not yet been applied. The disparity in land ownership by race remains largely unchanged since SA independence a century ago. Some mix up SA with former Southern Rhodesia.
Readering, of course it does. I'm not sure you'd understand why your gay and your divorced/remarried friends would feel compelled to leave the Catholic faith, though. They were obviously, actively not living the Catholic faith and instead of doing the work to live by that faith, they walked away and went to the pretty much anything goes flavor of Christianity.
So- leftists are "out and proud" of their racism, now? Got it.
JaimeRoberto: sorry to hear that. I am confident your relatives like me were warned about SA's terrible street crime problem, reflected in my gated and guarded nice hotel in an affluent neighborhood with a nearby mall that closed before sundown. This post is about the laughable white refugee lie from Trump as he dismisses refugee crises from places like Afghanistan and Venezuela.
Readering: South Africa has the fifth highest crime rate in the world. Only Venezuela, Papua, New Guinea, Afghanistan, and Haiti exceed it. Despite massive undercounting and laws that do not recognize all the types of rape recognized as such in the West, they have the third highest rape rate in the world, after Botswana and Lesotho. Thousands of white farmers were killed, mostly in the early years of the 21st Century. Many fled. Those who remain are disproportionately feeding the nation, from behind massive security, as the farms seized by looters and the government are unproductive. Warring clans of black citizens kill each other at unbelievable rates. Do you feel proud to have managed to ignore this while having a little jaunt among the elite tourists? To deny this suffering is grotesque.
And to have a cunning vacay among the horrors is unspeakable.
Karen in these examples they were all drawn to ministry, but unfortunately not within the Church.
Tina that statement is nuts.
"The SA Government insists the act has not yet been applied. The disparity in land ownership by race remains largely unchanged since SA independence a century ago. Some mix up SA with former Southern Rhodesia. "
Wow, you gave a lot away, there.
@Jamie, your departure would have more impact if you left right now. Just sayin’
It's true. Especially since this choir is "rebuilding" after an ugly end with the previous very accomplished music liturgist and I'm the sole alto. But... it's not the congregation's fault. It's not even the priest's fault - this new rector - not to put too fine a point on it, but it appears they hired him for the utter lack of waves he'd make, so I can't imagine his bucking the national church over this or anything else. I've considered finding an Anglican communion church in the past but none were in reasonable distance - maybe I'll look again.
Readering - remember when the Oct. 7 atrocities took place and for a moment we could all agree that they were horrific? (I think RCOCEAN sat that moment out.) No one here will take your Dem card if you step outside the lines and agree that the murder of ANY farmer, the rape of ANY woman, and the failure of ANY Christian church to exercise the fundamental option for refugees (I'm borrowing from liberation theology lingo, substituting "refugees" for "the poor," but surely it applies here) is reprehensible.
Readering: we have been bringing in Afghani refugees for decades. There is a pause on now. Venezuela is turning the tides. I believe in a Marshall-like Plan for these types of situations. But the white farmers in South Africa fit the description of refugees far more. The wealthy oil countries of the Middle East should subsidize aid for Afghanistan.
We are the most generous nation on earth -- to foreigners. You should leave, and we'll be even more generous by one. I bet you never did the poverty, abuse, child protection, and refugee work I did for decades. Pretty much all pro-bono, so I haven't been on a vacation in 30 years, and that was three days on Myrtle Beach. So I have the authority, integrity, and intelligence to speak on these issues, and you do not.
Readering, use your real name when addressing me, coward.
The Biden years have made "refugee" a problematic term. How many of those streaming across the border during the Biden era were actual "refugees" or "asylum seekers"? Change the names and faces, and many of these South Africans would probably get refugee or asylum status from Democrat judges.
Readering said...
Tina that statement is nuts.
At least you stopped pretending you are a decent human being.
The Biden years have made "refugee" a problematic term.
Exactly the problem, ISTM: previously, there was never such a thing as "economic asylum" or an "economic refugee." Everyone acknowledged, and still does, that there are poor people with few prospects in many places - but unlike those who really are targeted for their political beliefs, religious beliefs, sex, sexual orientation, etc , poor people are not afforded asylum because of their poverty - if they were, the entire world would end up within our borders. I don't even except Europe.
And when the Biden administration blew open the doors on the term "asylum" such that literally every single person attempting to enter the United States could claim to be seeking asylum and be granted a hearing (years down the line, when I understand previously it was weeks or so), we can no longer distinguish between those actually targeted for such beliefs or characteristics as given above and those who simply want to get in here and start either collecting benefits or - in the better cases - "making a better life."
Readering - "Karen in these examples they were all drawn to ministry, but unfortunately not within the Church." Of course not, because the Church would have demanded of them that which they were unwilling to give. Your gay friend who went from RC priest to married episcopal priest? Nothing prevented him from being a gay Catholic priest - but he wanted to be able to live a gay, married lifestyle. The Catechism of the Catholic Church addresses why that is a problem. Same for your gay RC former colleague who became an Episcopal priest. He wanted the option of continuing to actively engage in his gay lifestyle. Again, the CCC addresses that. As for your divorced and remarried RC former colleague, he could have become an RC priest but he would have needed to live as brother and sister with his current spouse until an annulment was granted, which is not a guaranteed outcome, and then be married in the Church before ordination could be considered. The less troublesome, easier path was to choose to leave his Catholic faith and become an Episcopal priest.
I'm not making general pronouncements about life in SA. I'm saying Trump is lying.
So without knowing the first, fucking thing you're talking about, you can confidently claim Trump is lying.
Unbelievable.
Readering, let me get this straight. You said, "I am confident your relatives like me were warned about SA's terrible street crime problem, reflected in my gated and guarded nice hotel in an affluent neighborhood with a nearby mall that closed before sundown." So you saw South Africa from a gated and guarded hotel, and you claim that you know what the situation is like across the country? Really? I stayed in a similarly guarded and gated hotel in Moscow in the 90s, but I wouldn't pretend to know what the situation was like in the smaller cities, villages and countryside, because that would be ridiculous.
and those who simply want to get in here and start either collecting benefits or - in the better cases - "making a better life."
You left out those intent on thievery, rape and murder.
Just sayin'.
Readering, I designed culturally effective STD education for the CDC for refugees and trafficked women. I helped expose the (first black female) Chief of Police in Atlanta for unfounding rapes of underaged girls being pimped out from politically-connected strip clubs. I am the first recipient of the Atlanta Refugee Women's Committee annual award. I won the once-prestigeous Humanities Medal from Emory University.
What are you? A useless socialite snarfing wine in front of starving people. Address me only by your real name, with appropriate humility for your failure to do anything humanitarian. That would be Tina Trent, Ph.D. Now go away, coward. Bored now.
In light of our church's steadfast commitment to racial justice and reconciliation
"Kill all the whites" is their idea of "reconciliation"?
I was part of the Episcopal Church while with my first wife. I feel dirty having ever been part of such an evil organization
In 1939, Jews tried to escape Nazi Germany on the MS St. Louis, but no one wanted to let them in
Happily, the US is being run by a Republican President Trump now, rather than a Democrat President, so this time the refugees trying to escape a genocidal dictatorship are being let in.
But the Episcopal Church is clearly desirous of a Holocaust repeat, so of course they're upset that the modern Jew analogues are being let in
Readering said...
The SA Government insists the act has not yet been applied.
And we all know that no government would ever lie!
Even for you, Readering, that's an amazingly stupid statement
Karen, aren't we past the phrase gay lifestyle?
I had hoped that the Church's outreach to married protestant priests would lead to something more. I have not seen anything on the subject but was there a consensus on whether married priests "worked" within the Latin Rite?
Greg: "Even for you, Readering, that's an amazingly stupid statement"
readering has been offering up stupid takes all day...because why change?
All the left has to do is not be weird, but they can't help themselves.
Tina Trent: Thanks for the info. Info from me, as I have stated repeatedly starting back when Gorsuch and especially Kavanaugh were first in the news. I also am the proud product of a (different) Jesuit boy's school.
Your bio does not explain your crazy comment.
On the Act I am passing on the statement the SA Government made in response to Trump's crazy justification. Anyone have any reporting? Any other countries or organizations treating this as a refugee situation?
Drago, that the best you got?
aren't we past the phrase gay lifestyle?
I suppose she could have indelicately stated the truth, that these men wanted to have sex with other men without being made constantly aware that a vow of celibacy prevents their having sex with anyone at all..
"Drago, that the best you got?"
You ain't worth a nickel more , sweetie.
Boris: I guess you haven't been following Drago's longer but still pathetic efforts on other threads.
The crime rate in South Africa is… if not the worst in the world, it’s damned close… and I recall reading an article in one of the car enthusiast magazines 10 to 15 years ago about the trend of car owners placing spring loaded gizmos in the footwell (driver’s side) that had an iron bar released upon ignition that would break a car thief’s ankles.
I don’t believe things have improved. The white farmers have been under murderous attacks for several decades now and they and their families deserve a break.
Jamie, you make it sound like she just thought of it.
Readering said...
On the Act I am passing on the statement the SA Government made in response to Trump's crazy justification.
The ANC, which runs the gov't, has Party rallies where they sing about "Killing the Boer".
What is crazy is pretending that every single white in South Africa does not have a legitimate "refugee" justification.
I you honestly doubt that white people are being murdered in SA for being white, so look at the crosses of all the whites murdered for being white, apologize, and STFU
Inman: if this was about crime Trump would open the doors to all South Africans, black, coloured, South Asian ....
https://x.com/DefiantLs/status/1922213073957327219
If you believe the South African gov't over your own lying eyes, you're a moron
"In 1939, Jews tried to escape Nazi Germany on the MS St. Louis, but no one wanted to let them in"
Okay. Except the US let in hundreds of thousands Jews in the 30s - they came in under the Austrian and German quotas. But I love how the jews are always centered in every discussion. I mean "is this good for the jews?"
Then there's this:
https://x.com/joelpollak/status/1922378198047699377
Note that South Africa’s ruling party denies Afrikaners are persecuted *in the same paragraph* that it accuses them of fleeing “transformation,” which is a process of racial redistribution enforced by law. So @MYANC admits, while denying, the legitimacy of the Afrikaners’ claim.
The Nazis wanted to get the Jews out of Germany, and only went to the "Final Solution" of murdering them all because people like Readering refused to allow the Jews to escape.
The ANC, OTOH, wants to murder all the whites, and so is very unhappy that some escaped
Of wait, Narr already talked about the Jews. They're in Memphis and ex-South Africans.
There are 59 Africaans refugees admitted under Trump’s policy exception. All are arguably targets of racial discrimination by the SA government. There are more than one million Sudanese refugees in Uganda alone who are displaced by war. Is Trump discriminating against the latter or are practical considerations at work?
Readering… white farmers have had a decades-long open hunting season declared on them and if there are any other SA citizens living under that black cloud they should be welcomed too.
Almost all the German Jews either left Germany before 1939 or were not "exterminated". Victor Klemperer, survived the war while leaving in Nazi Germany.
Rendering, why are you so popular? People love you dude!
"NPR reports." If ever proof of the saying "Consider the source" came to hand, this SURELY is it.
Greg don't forget your meds.
Today I'm also terminated my affiliation with Episcopal Church. Those South African farmers are political refugees threatened with personal violence and genuine death threats, loss of property and future livelihoods for their children. Episcopal Church truly exposed its white liberal guilt-complex today, in living color, as well as it innate hypocrisy.
If the American Episcopal Church has close ties to the SA Anglican Church it is aberrational. Most African Anglican churches have severed ties to the American church due to its liberalism.
Readering said...
Greg don't forget your meds.
More projection from Readering
Well, Readering there is no reason to be "past the phrase". If we must put cis- or hetero- as descriptors to indicate how retro those relationships are, then I can reserve the right to use the descriptor "gay". "Gay lifestyle" in the context of religious life is a phrase that explains a lifestyle predicated by a choice to engage in activity that is antithical to Catholic teaching. But you apparently should know this, since you are the "product of a (different) Jesuit boy's school". It happens when you are insufficiently catechized that you would believe that "the Church's outreach to married protestant priests" would lead to something more. I assume, stupid, I know, that you apply your belief to acceptance of homosexual relationships/marriages as well as married priests? In the first instance, if it were to happen, the Church would no longer be preaching The Truth as God's revealed Word. In the second, I see valid reasons for the Church to want celibate priests although you likely know there is a history of married clergy, including St Peter. Married Protestant ministers who convert to Catholicism can, and have been, ordained as Catholic priests with the approval of the Pope. Additionally, married men can be ordained as priests under the Personal Ordinariates of English Patrimony within the Latin Rite, primarily for former Anglican and Methodist clergymen. Widowers can also become priests in the Latin Rite, provided their children are grown and self-supporting. So yes, there is a consensus that married men can "work" within the Latin rite.
I hunted the Northern Transvaal 25 summers ago. The rural private security was run by former Selous Scouts.
Yes, RCOCEANII, I mentioned Jews, as among the first to perceive the dangers that loomed from the new regime in South Africa.
Always glad to teach you something.
You do realize that there have been refugee and immigrant Jews in Memphis since the earliest days of the city, right? In fact, there could be one behind you right now . . .
Karen: I don't expect the Church to change on homosexuality. Talking 10 Commandments territory. But my understanding is that mandatory priestly celibacy arose out of a losing battle against simony. Not basic theology. I don't expect a change on the role of women in the Church under Leo, but if he is looking for a breakthrough on priestly vocations I hope he would look at the experience of married priests in all the forms you helpfully lay out.
You should read Klemperer's book, RCOCEANII.
RACIST LEFT AND THE MEDIA ATTACK WHITE AFRIKANERS!
If an overseas tourist visits NYC for a week, and returns, they've been to America. Yet, have no idea what New York State is like. Much less the USA.I have friends, and have read of others from from he NYC metropolitan area, who've hosted Europeans that they met on business or studying overseas. And they think they can take a day jaunt to Niagara Falls and back, or a day jaunt to Philadelphia or D.C. or Boston and back. Including a leisurely lunch and dinner at the destination before returning. Plus- doing the tourist stuff!. They have no clue.
Examples of things many wouldn't notice. Had a port visit to Chin Hae, South Korea. Home of a major naval base and the Korean Naval Academy. It's a walled city- something we don't have. And I've never visited one anywhere else. There are others in SK, and I know Russia has some. I watched someone (well, more then one) get escorted off the Pusan to Chin Hae train at the checkpoint because they didn't have paperwork allowing them to enter. One escorted off being carried by 4 officers, one on each limb. They take state security seriously. And if you observe the scenery, not just look, you'll see pillboxes and other defensive structures in the mountains. I assume everyone here knows what a pillbox is- but telling this one tome to a coworker my age he asked "WTH is a pillbox?" I guess he never watched any WWII movies.
The average tourist in SK isn't going to see those things.
And Cartagena Columbia in the mid 1970s. Uniformed soldiers wandering around the streets with their select fire weapon with magazine inserted just in case they had to use it. Most business lobbies if you looked in had a security guard with shotgun visible sitting at an observation point, behind bulletproof glass, to watch the entrance and lobby. I did see American tourists in Cartagena. They got off the tour bus, visited Castle Cartagena, then reboarded and left. Most of them likely never noted the other stuff.
And for tourists in China, or Russia, haw many have actually been to an area with peasants, and met and interacted with them? Those are the two countries off the top of head that actually have peasants and admit to it. TBH- I don't know if any other country does.
And then there's our close neighbor Mexico. Where a few weeks back some American citizen was picked up by INS because he spoke little no English, or for that matter, Spanish. Born here- whisked off to some obscure village in Mexico where they spoke only an indigenous language, then back to the us after age 18, and picked up after a few years here- still not the least bit literate in English nor Spanish. I've only been in Mexico on day trips, driving as far as Ensenada and back. I wasn't aware until reading that snippet that there were villages in Mexico where people got by speaking only an obscure indigenous dialect, and apparently there are several, with different languages. How many tourists ever get to one of those places? His existence is just about the best example possible of why absolute birthright citizenship is a travesty.
Being tourist of just visiting a country doesn't make you an expert on the country. And then, there's Walter Duranty reporting on, or rather, lying about the Soviet Union and winning a Pulitzer Prize for his lies. Readering and Walter would be best comrades if they existed at the same time.
Readering: "Boris: I guess you haven't been following Drago's longer but still pathetic efforts on other threads."
LOL
Shorter readering: stop noticing the bilge I am peddling everywhere!
Readering, address me appropriately using my title and your real name, because you are beneath me in every way.
"I would like to see black women and girls who are victims of South Africa's horrific rape culture granted refugee status too."
How many can we afford?
Isn't this a GOOD thing? I mean, we're enabling the White colonizers leaving the land they took from the Zulus, right?
I think the left would prefer that the white colonizers were killed.
Mason G: "I think the left would prefer that the white colonizers were killed."
No doubt.
Similar to the left/LLR-dem Left's alliance with the islamic supremacists death cult...and demands for unlimited abortion...and their passionate support for importing murderous cartel death cult members as well as endless neocon driven Forever Wars.
The Left/LLR-left = Death
“I mean, their leaders are on video calling for the murder of South African whites. And they’ve spent the last 20 years stealing land and murdering South African whites. But other than that…”
—— Sean Davis
https://x.com/seanmdav/status/1922110112304423138
Tina: as you can see I make no such demands. Besides, as you intuit, it's dogs on the internet.
Afrikaners have been there since the 1600s, Joe Bar.
Rootless cosmopolitan South Africans got rich from the empire, then The Union of South Africa, were in the forefront of ending apartheid, then fled when they couldn’t tolerate life after apartheid ended. Fuck them
“Fuck them” and then kill ‘em… right char char?
And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Matthew 7:23 (New King James Version)
It’s time to end the corrupt racial preference system of DEI. Here's why the only refugees we should let in are white South Africans......
The Dutch, Zulu, and Bantu were all colonizers, moving at around the same time into areas where the native tribes were weak. The Zulu and Bantu came from hundreds of miles away; the Dutch from thousands.
Kind of like Anglos and Comanches over here.
Differences of degree not kind.
JSM
You should read Klemperer's book, RCOCEANII
I did. Its very well written. And very detailed!
"You do realize that there have been refugee and immigrant Jews in Memphis since the earliest days of the city, right?"
I'm not sure what this has to do with anything I wrote. But if you like Immigrant Jews in Memphis - good for you.
Rob said...
If the color of someone's skin is your deciding factor, you're a racist. This church is proclaiming their racism out in the open for all to see!
When they tell you who they are, believe them.
Remember in 2020 when a Church was burning across from the White House and Trump went over to express his concern? The Church was Episcopalian and the minister made it quite clear that she wasn't that upset about her Church burning. What really made her angry was Orange man setting foot in it. How dare he!
From the Financial Times---Treasury secretary Bessent & Chinese finance minister Lan held a #secretmeeting in the IMF basement 3 weeks ago that helped paved the way for the trade deal reached in Geneva at the weekend
LOL
And thus ANOTHER LLR-democratical Rich talking point explodes in his pants like a Hezbollah pager, adding to the bonfire of Abacus Boy's failed prognostications and "analyses".
So fun to see.
>Joe Bar said...
I mean, we're enabling the White colonizers leaving the land they took from the Zulus, right?<
Not right. The Afrikaners were the original South Africans (with the exception of some Hottentots that lived in the Cape region). The Zulu and the other Bantu came down from North of the Limpopo after the Great Trek had moved the Afrikaners all the way up to Natal. There they fought at Blood River. Etc, etc...
“Kind of like Anglos and Comanches over here.”
Throw in the Sioux, Arapahoe, and Cheyenne, who immigrated into their “ancestral Homes” after the American Revolution. Before 1800 or so, they had apparently been farmers in what is now S MN and vicinity. I point this out because my daughter’s church (in Boulder, CO) has an attestation at the end of each service, where the attest that we white Americans stole the land from the indigenous Utes, Cheyenne, and Arapahoe. Except that we have held it now twice as long as the latter two tribes did (having recently stolen it recently from the third tribe, the Utes).
Jamie said...
5/13/25, 11:28 AM
While you are between religious institutions, you might delve into the teachings of Epictetus. There are numerous translations*. His thoughts on how one might live one's life are simple, yet calming and centering, as the reader is inspired to consider how to incorporate those thoughts into his own life habits.
* just search "Epictetus" on Goodreads.
This is one of several versions that I have:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24618.The_Art_of_Living
"I would like to see black women and girls who are victims of South Africa's horrific rape culture granted refugee status too."
Of course you would, because you're a blithering imbecile and lying sack of shit
"Refugees" are people whose GOVERNMENT is attacking them.
Not whose gov't isn't protecting them from criminals, those whose government is attacking them.
And that's white South Africans.
Black female South Africans aren't being rap3ed by the government, they're being raped by criminals.
That's sad, but that's not "refugee" worthy.
Any more than being threatened by robbers or murderers is "refugee" worthy.
"I have a bad life therefore America has to take me in." No, Fuck you, no.
"The government wants to steal my property and then murder me". THAT is a refugee.
Open Borders shits have been folding, spindling, and mutilating immigration law and refugee status with bullshit rulings by unelected officials to try to let more and more people in.
No.
If your gov't is not actively going after you, then you are not a refugee, and if you came to the US illegally you should be deported back to your home country.
We don't owe you jack shit, and until such time as 99.99% of all illegals in the US are deported, our response to anyone who wants to come in without going through the visa process first should be "fuck you, go away."
It's not our job to save the world from bad governments
Kakistocracy said...
It’s time to end the corrupt racial preference system of DEI. Here's why the only refugees we should let in are white South Africans......
That's because they're the only ones who are refugees from a gov't that wants to rob and murder them, rather than just migrants who want a better life.
Migrants who want a better life aren't allowed to skip the line
You should know my position on mass immigration, legal and illegal. But in South Africa, the government certainly does persecute rape victims. Government troops and posses commit mass rapes. Government courts allow these types of criminals to go free. I said the white farmers being slaughtered are the priority refugees. Calm down.
Aryan Nation or Afrikaan Nation? America's white nationalists are divided.
Narr, we can't afford them. Maybe allow the ones raped by government forces to come, and bar tourism until they enforce their own laws. "Readering" can visit some Islamic hellhole wearing her pussy hat to get her third-world vacay rocks off this year.
I'm happy to have smart, educated, hard-working legal immigrants come to my country and city. But not being insane, I prefer Christians, Jews, and Secularists to others.
Bruce Hayden said... @ 8:36
Yeah. The history of the indigenous people of North America prior to and up til around 1900 was one constant internecine warfare. They murdered each other early and often and with great enthusiasm. Their concern for Nature was much the same.
That's good, RCOCEANII. Really. (Klemperer's book.)
Robin Wright in the New Yorker
On Monday, dozens of white Afrikaners arrived in Washington from Johannesburg, on a charter plane paid for by U.S. taxpayers. They were handed small American flags and greeted as refugees by the seconds-in-command from the Departments of State and Homeland Security, just hours after President Trump charged that South Africa was engaging in “genocide.” It’s a word he has refused to utter about other conflicts, present and past, including on anniversaries of the massacre of a million Armenians by the Ottoman Empire. Afrikaners, who are the descendants of seventeenth-century European settlers in South Africa, are the only exception to an executive order issued by Trump, on his first day in office, that suspended refugee admissions, including for Afghans who aided Americans during the longest war ever fought by the U.S. He even dispatched diplomatic teams to recruit Afrikaners.
Human-rights groups—and even other Afrikaners—have been aghast. Last month, Max du Preez, the founding editor of Vrye Weekblad, an Afrikaans-language weekly, scolded Trump and his South African-born “first buddy,” Elon Musk, in an opinion piece for the Guardian. “We are not victims, there is no genocide,” he wrote. Afrikaners are “generally better off today” than when they ceded power three decades ago, when apartheid ended. White people make up seven per cent of the country’s population of sixty-four million, he noted, but still dominate the economy, and own more than half the nation’s farmland. In January, President Cyril Ramaphosa signed a law that allows land expropriation without compensation when it is “just and equitable and in the public interest.” Trump accused South Africa of “terrible things, horrible things,” including a land grab. South Africa compared the law to U.S. policy on eminent domain. And, du Preez added, “Not one square inch of it has been confiscated from white owners.”
This week, I spoke to Antoinette Sithole, whose twelve-year-old brother Hector Pieterson died on the first day of peaceful protests by Black children in Soweto, in 1976, over the white government’s order to teach in Afrikaans, the Dutch-based language spoken by Afrikaners, in Black schools. I reported from South Africa in the course of seven years of anti-apartheid protests. I was in Soweto the day Hector was shot by security forces. The early uprising, which led to Nelson Mandela’s release, in 1990, and to a majority-rule government, in 1994, is commemorated by a museum named for Hector. “Heartbreaking,” Sithole told me, of the U.S. decision to subsidize expedited resettlement of Afrikaners. During apartheid, Black people and those of mixed race “lived like we were in prison. Now they are turning it around as if we are doing the same thing,” she said. “For me, it doesn’t make sense at all.”
Senator Jeanne Shaheen, of New Hampshire, the ranking member on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, called Trump’s quest for Afrikaner refugees “baffling” and politically motivated, especially since the U.N. had found no South Africans of any race eligible for refugee status last year. South Africa’s coalition government, formed a year ago, is a partnership with the white-led Democratic Alliance. Trump’s initiative is, nevertheless, ongoing. On Monday, the State Department announced it will welcome more Afrikaners in the coming months, “to protect victims of racial discrimination.”
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