More information about that alligator attack we were talking about yesterday, in "Alligator Kills Woman After Flipping Her Canoe in Florida, Officials Say/The woman was paddling with her husband in shallow water on Tuesday when they passed over a large alligator that thrashed and tipped over their boat, the authorities said" (NYT).
We're told that the husband "attempted to intervene."
I can't imagine canoeing in such shallow water and passing over an animal that size, dipping the oar into that. I presume the water was murky. Perhaps the alligator looked like rocks or a log, but it seems inadvisable to pass that closely even over inanimate objects.
For the annals of Things I Asked Grok: Is it advisable to canoe in water that is only 2.5 feet deep? Answer: No. I don't think the alligator was the aggressor — sad though it is that the woman died.
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64 comments:
When you ask Grock you get a crock. And that's not to be mistaken for croc.
Grok
You go into the wild, you best be prepared to mount a lively defense.
An alligator wouldn’t look like a rock, because it lies on the floor of the pond/lake/river. But if it was shallow enough, the canoe might touch its back, which would annoy it.
Not clear that 2.5 feet was the uniform depth along the course of their journey. It’s reasonable to start canoeing in deep water, come to a shallow patch (sand bar?) and keep going toward deeper water.
Lots of rivers have long stretches where the water is less than 2 and a half feet deep. Sometimes you'll even scrape bottom, and it's just not a problem. But that's where there are no alligators. I would also not knowingly canoe in 10 feet of water with gators. And did you know that alligators can spend some amount of time in salt water and have popped up on Florida beaches? And that's not to mention the salt water crocodiles that also live down there. I'll stick with the Great Lakes region beaches, lakes, and rivers, thanks.
I've been canoeing most of my life. A canoe will easily float in water that is only a few inches deep. I often paddle in rivers and ponds with sunken logs or rocks and stained or murky water. This was a horrible incident, but it was also very unusual. The saying in Florida is that any body of water that's wet has gators in in it. Everyone has to choose for themselves what level of risk they are willing to live with. I will continue to spend as much time as I possibly can outdoors in the woods and waters and enjoy the world along with the bugs, snakes and gators that live there.
"An alligator wouldn’t look like a rock, because it lies on the floor of the pond/lake/river."
I don't understand your point. Are you saying that rocks are never in water? Perhaps you're just saying that the water was murky, so nothing looked like anything.
"I can't imagine canoeing in such shallow water and passing over an animal that size, dipping the oar into that."
I've floated over alligators lying on the bottom while boating, so I find it easy to believe. Also, gators (when viewed from the top) can easily blend into the bottom so they're not always obvious. Lastly, you're enjoying the wildlife and tranquility when canoeing/kayaking, not staring down into the water.
Now that we know the details, this may be a very rare occurrence, but it's plausible.
Grok seems unaware of rivers. I canoe in 2 1/2 feet or less all the time.
This hardly ever happens in Wisconsin.
No disrespect to this poor woman and her family, but I think being killed by an animal this far into human evolution would be a tremendously embarrassing way to go.
"And did you know that alligators can spend some amount of time in salt water and have popped up on Florida beaches? And that's not to mention the salt water crocodiles that also live down there."
All extant members of the Crocodilia can tolerate salt-water for a short time, however only a few can endure extended exposure to sea water. MarkW refers to the American crocodile, C. acutus. However, he ought not to have used the phrase "salt water crocodile", since that is the common name applied to a notoriously aggressive SE Asia species, Crocodylus porosus.
The American Croc is unusually salt-water tolerant, however they are uncommon throughout their range and generally shy of humans. The few recorded attacks on humans are often associated with defensive behaviors regarding nests or hatchlings.
The tannin levels in the water down here are often so high in the woods that it can be like coffee. If you see a log or a rock, assume it is a gator. Factor in mud and other possible things and this is not a surprise, just a tragedy. It doesn't happen often, but it happens.
The canoeists may have interrupted a courtship in progress. Alligators usually retreat from human activity, but a sex-obsessed bull gator will stand his ground to the detriment of all and sundry that intrude on his love life.
I assume they have killed the two captured alligators. For no reason.
“See ya later, alligator
After a while, crocodile”
Years ago I was fishing in the ocean, wading from a Sanibel Florida beach. I saw what appeared to be a branch floating in the water with two knobs showing. I cast near it and it suddenly went under water. Guess who beat a path to land?
It's a plausible story. I believe I'd fight really hard to save my wife in shallow water like that, and I'm put off by the journalistically vague "attempted to intervene." As Yoda said, "There is no try. You either DO or do NOT."
Therefore I expect news of a recent large transaction in the husband's finances (increased life insurance on her, one of her relatives leaving her an inheritance, etc.) OR the old standby for "crimes of passion" the wife either just learned or was about to learn he has a girlfriend or she filed for divorce.
There are legitimate reasons for a husband being too feeble or timid to fight for his wife's life but those type of people aren't generally outdoor adventurers. IF he did indeed fight there should be obvious markings on his hands and or feet. If so, shame on the cops for not making it very clear or the journalist who chose "attempted" in that phrase.
Annnnd Darwin continues his work unabated.
I’ve gone white water canoeing in my younger days and the water was only inches deep in spots. I learned how to spot the dangerous rocks by looking for silver streaks left by Grumman canoes hanging up on them. Does anyone still make aluminum canoes?
Also, gators (when viewed from the top) can easily blend into the bottom so they're not always obvious.
I have seen a YouTube video that included a clip focused on the body of a deer on the bottom of a river — only when the “log” it was caught on opened its eyes could one see that the deer was held in the jaws of a large gator, so I agree with mindnumbrobot. Nature has a lot of ways to kill you, even if you’re careful
Let’s stop pussyfootin’ around it. Did the husband “intervene” or did he not?
Oso negro nailed it.
Where is the wild? Right outside your front door. Don't forget to wear sunscreen!
Yes, and how many wives must a gator wolf down?
Before he is forever banned?
Lastly, you're enjoying the wildlife and tranquility when canoeing/kayaking, not staring down into the water.
Plus, sitting in a canoe puts your eyes very low towards the surface of the water, which greatly enhances glare and reduces your ability to see down below the surface. That is why flats fishing boats have the elevated platforms for the guide.
I'm with Mike (MJB Wolf) on this one. Plausible? Yes. But more likely to result in a Dateline episode soon. I put this in the same category as the recent report of the triathlon guy supposedly training for his ocean swimming at 10:30pm when he disappeared with no trace. Plausible, but no.
I assume they have killed the two captured alligators. For no reason.
There are two good reasons:
1. When human death is involved a necropsy must be performed to see exactly what the gator(s) have been eating.
2. Like other predators (bears, sharks, etc.) when they get a taste for "long pig" or human flesh they must be put down to prevent them from returning for another easy meal.
WE are the "other white meat" regardless of ethnic type.
One of the principle reasons that canoes are designed the way they are (light, long, flat bottomed and low freeboard) is so that they can be operated in very shallow water--inches deep-- and carried or portaged when the water gets too shallow. two and a half feet of water is quite deep for the use of canoes (indeed canoes are not particularly safe in deep or open water). Grok's statement that Canoes typically require at least 3-4 feet of water to float freely without scraping the bottom, depending on the canoe's draft and load is absurd and silly.
I presume that Althouse put in the Grok thing just to illustrate how unreliable Grok can be.
If you nevercano in sesterpedalian waters, you will either never reach the middle of the lake, or you will never reach land.
I strongly recommend John McPhee's "The Survival of the Bark Canoe" which is an entertaining read and provides background on how and why the canoe was invented and came to be used.
Reminds me of the short (humorous) video of the Louisiana woman telling if there are 'gators in the water' - 'if dat water wet, it got gators in it'.
A depth of 2.5ft is fine for a canoe.
Death by misadventure.
"This hardly ever happens in Wisconsin."
Beware the muskellunge.
Grok: "Muskies can grow up to 5 feet long and weigh over 50 pounds, with sharp teeth capable of inflicting serious bites... As reported in the Twin Cities Pioneer Press, an angler fishing on Day Lake [in 2016] hooked a muskie estimated at 30 inches long. The fish breached the surface, partially cartwheeling, and thrashed violently while being netted, creating a chaotic and intimidating scene.... [N]o direct injury was reported...."
"I can't imagine canoeing in such shallow water and passing over an animal that size, dipping the oar into that. "
It's a paddle, not an oar.
Sorry, pet peeve. And you are a word meister, so I imagine you want to get it right.
"I'll stick with the Great Lakes region beaches, lakes, and rivers, thanks."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHKYBkU7Rxk
When canoing up shit creek, don't forget your paddle.
I'll put my oar in. Canoes have to float in 2.5 feet of water because you need to beach them on the shore. Otherwise, you'd have to anchor them. If the water was murkey you don't know whats down there. No one expects to float over an 11 foot alligator, even in the Florida.
Never smile at a crocodile and never land on an 11 foot alligator.
Sharks will often "Bump" sea kyaks. They're not trying to tip them over, they are just investigating.
Yesterday someone mentioned how dangerous Australia is. I've long had the impression that everything there will kill you.
So I asked Gemini AI
Alligators/Crocodiles
US: From 1948 to 2024, there have been 27 recorded fatal alligator attacks. Given the large human population, the death rate per 100,000 people is extremely low, statistically insignificant.
Australia (Crocodiles):
Rate: The annual death rate fluctuates but averages around 1-2 fatalities per year. The death rate per 100,000 people is also very low but slightly higher than that of alligators in the US.
The snakebite death rate per 100,000 people is:
United States: 0.002 deaths per 100,000 population, average 5-6 deaths annually.
Australia: 0.03 deaths per 100,000 around 1-2 deaths annually.
OMG!!!!! Australian snakebite death rate is 15 times the US rate!!! Stay away from Oz.
Poisonous bugs
US about 75 deaths per year
Australia about 15
The real danger in both country seems to be horses.
Horseback and horse related
US about 100 deaths per year
Australia about 20
Not to be pedantic, original Mike but you can row a canoe. But only if you have 2 oars.
https://www.instructables.com/How-to-row-a-canoe-FAST/
John Henry
If confronted with both an alligator and a crocodile, here is a handy tip to tell them apart
Stare at them. After a while one will see you. That is the crocodile. The one who sees you later is the alligator.
John Henry
"Not to be pedantic, original Mike but you can row a canoe. But only if you have 2 oars."
And oarlocks.
There is a great book whose name I can't now remember, about Stanley and (or?) Livingstone traveling down the Nile from its source.
Lots and lots of alligators and/or crocodiles. So thick you could walk across on their backs.
And if that were not enough, hippotomi in abundance. We think of them in little ballerina skirts as cute and harmless but they are the most deadly animal in Africa to humans.
Apparently there is a herd of them in Colombia too. Another reason to avoid Africa and Columbia.
Other than rabid mongeese and humans, no dangerous animals in Puerto Rico. Which is one of the reasons I like it so much.
John Henry
You can also sail a canoe incase you don't have paddle or orelocks.
Is orelock another name for a chastity belt?
John Henry
Here's how you test for alligators.
Canoes and shallow water makes me think of the Today Show when they were reporting on flooding in NJ and people walked in between the camera and the canoe, showing the water was only inches deep.
Space City Girl said...
"I assume they have killed the two captured alligators. For no reason."
Deport them to Egypt. I hear the Nile is nice this time of year.
Ann Althouse said...
["This hardly ever happens in Wisconsin."]
"Beware the muskellunge."
You may recall the incident in Dodgeville where a guy was dangling his toes in the lake, which a muskie thought was bait, and bit him. Reflexes kicked in, and he landed the muskie on his boat. He reported it to DNR and was cited for fishing without a license. DNR eventually relented, and waived the citation, and let him keep the toe biter, presumably now mounted on the wall. It's probably in the Madison.com archives, behind a paywall that didn't exist back in the day.
Florida. Chock full of natures assholes.
I hooked a musky once while fishing from a canoe. I was definitely NOT fishing for musky, but he hit my little lure. Huge fish leaps out of the water a couple of feet from me. Scared the shit out of me. For a couple of seconds, in the excitement, I wondered how I was going to get him in the boat, but of course that was never going to happen with my 8 lb test, or whatever line I was fishing with.
A crocodile that swallowed an alarm clock is liable to bite off your hand.
I don't know where she was but isn't the water in the Everglades very shallow? That's why they have the iconic airboats or hover boats, with the shallow draft and the big fans in the back. Did those ever catch on anywhere else?
The hippos in Columbia were brought there for drug kingpin Pablo Escobar's private zoo. Now there are 200 or more cocaine hippos wandering in the wild.
“ For the annals of Things I Asked Grok: Is it advisable to canoe in water that is only 2.5 feet deep? Answer: No.”
That’s the wrong question. The problem wasn’t the 2.5 feet, it was the gator. Canoes capsize all the time, so it’s strongly inadvisable to canoe around gators.
Lazarus said...
"...isn't the water in the Everglades very shallow?"
It was Lake Kissimmee in the Central Florida, not the Everglades (South Florida). The number of lakes in Central Florida is astonishing. If you ever fly into Orlando, look out the window.
If a man was 10 feet tall, he could wade anywhere in the Everglades. Until the gators got him, of course.
Althouse, the water in Florida has lots of shoals and stumps and is dark from tannin. Alligators do look like mere rocks or glittery sand underwater. I can't count the times they had to be pointed out to me. They also turn up unexpectedly in condo ponds, golf courses, beaches off freshwater river, and sandbars. I don't get the sense either you or Grok have ever canoed down there.
I was on Lake Kissimmie in medium-sized boat once, and when it grew dark, we were surrounded by dozens of pairs of red eyes. Before that, we hadn't seen a single alligator.
I didn't go in the water much. Even the Gar there can grow very large. They tickle your toes before they bite. However, fresh alligator bbq is delicious.
This is the reason I gave up the idea of canoeing in Florida. Actually, this is the reason I gave up the idea of swimming in anything other than a "cement pond" in Florida. Oh, hell, to be honest, alligators and snakes are the reasons I gave up the idea of moving to Florida.
As an Australian, I'm not in the least surprised. You assume there are salties in any body of water north of Brisbane.
And there are bull sharks in rivers south.
Iman said...
Yes, and how many wives must a gator wolf down?
Before he is forever banned?
42?
Three to four feet of depth to avoid scraping?
Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot?
Grok is a crock if it 'thinks" canoes need that kind of draft. Find me a canoe scraping the bottom in four feet deep water and I'll show you a sunken canoe.
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