Meanwhile, with respect to a person already deported, Trump displays a picture and frames Democrats as admirers of the man (rather than as devotees of due process rights):
This is the hand of the man that the Democrats feel should be brought back to the United States, because he is such “a fine and innocent person.” They said he is not a member of MS-13, even though he’s got MS-13 tattooed onto his knuckles, and two Highly Respected Courts found… pic.twitter.com/31sNr2k1SK
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) April 18, 2025
Posts
181 comments:
Are any of us really surprised that he'd go off half cocked with unsubstantiated information? While I find it troubling that it now seems normalized and acceptable for the POTUS to any that way, it seems to be his brand (and what his devotees eat up by the spoonfull).
Ann:
Could you please explain how illegal aliens who have been declared, by the President, to be alien enemies have any due process rights? I thought under SCOTUS precedent that there is no judicial review of actions by the President under the Alien Enemies Act.
The judiciary only has as much power as Congress and he power elite gives them. Look at what happened when the D's took over congress in 2021 and you had the Senate Majority leader threatening the SCOTUS judges because they'd overturend Roe v. Wade.
The POTUS can ignore these SCOTUS judges (cf: Andrew jackson) and Congress can pack the court, and restrict the jurisdiction of the Appellate courts. They don't do it, because they want the Federal Courts to push the globalist, liberal agenda. Its a win-win for congress they get to complain and get votes, and they get liberal policies courtesy of the courts.
The idea that these Anti-American, open borders loving Democats are going down to Central America and crying tears over "Our poor illegal immigrants" are concerned with "Due Process" is hilarious. Ask Senator Von Holl-in-a-Head about the students being deported due to "antisemitism". Ask him why he isn't flying to India, Eygpt and Saudi Arabia and demanding their return to the USA.
I read the per curiam opinion in the April 7 case. Congress must eliminate habeas jurisdiction for cases arising under the Alien Enemies Act. Otherwise, we are stuck with TdeA. How fucked up is that? But it would be interesting seeing the federal courts flooded with habeas cases.
The problem is that the Republicans will do nothing to help Trump enforce the immigration laws or rein in the courts. The Senate Republicans in particular.
If you remember, the Senate Republicans in 2018, were willing to shut down the GOvernment rather than fund the border wall. The wall they had all voted for. Did any of them face blowback from the R voters? Of course not.
If people actually want the immigration laws enforced they will have to start voting for the right people. But that's the problem everywhere. No matter how corrupt or crime ridden cities get, the voters keep putting the same people back in office. As for the Democrats in places like Minnaosta, Washington or Colorado, they seem so brain dead and brainwashed, they would vote for their own deaths if the MSM told them to.
Yeah, it would be interesting. Conservatives win by losing and doing nothing. As always!
None of this faux outrage by Dems or intellectual gymnastics by the Leftwing politicians, press, lawyers and retired academics would now be required if President Joe Biden, border czar Harris or secretary Myorkas had enforced emigration laws. Did anyone point that out to Grok or the disabled picador?
Hypothetical.
It’s 1943. The Nazis build a mini-submarine and sail it up the Potomac River and come ashore (at night) at Mt. Vernon. They have maps to the White House. They have Nazi tats. They have guns and a plan to assassinate FDR.
But they are captured! Do these alien enemies get a habeas hearing?
The left care about criminal illegals.
The left do not care about American Citizens.
The left lie, party and grift from us - and force us to take bogus/harmful jabs.
He was deported to his home country. We have millions more in the Q. Due process for every illegal Biden and his cabal let in... ILLEGALLY?
But no due process if you merely walked thru an open door at the capitol on Jan 6th.
Got it.
Trump displays a picture and frames Democrats as admirers of the man (rather than as devotees of due process rights)
Trump’s take, while possibly exaggerated, is closer to the truth. Democrats are, as with literally everything, devotees of due process if, and only if, they think it will work in their political favor.
Begley, failing to address the post as usual.
We're screwed if the executive branch can unilaterally choose not to enforce immigration laws and then courts can prevent the executive from enforcing them, all on a due process theory that the framers extended only to citizens. SCOTUS has no clue of the depths of the Pandora's Box it's opened.
According to the 2018 police report, he was hanging out with 3 identified MS-13 guys. The lefties seize on the language in the report to the effect that he was identified by a confidential informant as MS-13 as evidence that the MS-13 accusation is questionable. But what was he doing with those 3 guys?
Due process is for citizens.
Dave Begley is right. The input to Grok is meaningless if the question isn't framed in enough detail, politically, legally, and historically. There's plenty of evidence besides gang tattoos in this case, too.
If 11-20 million illegals are owed due process - we are screwed.
But that's the corruptocrat long game. Screwing all US citizens over for the corrupt Soros left's absolute power grab.
Trump is responding to the propaganda that the guy is a hard-working husband and father, which are intended to lend public support to the "due process" claims. This is neither a criminal case nor a trial. It is a jurisdictional matter.
If the court wants to issue a decision to the effect that the Administration improperly deported the guy, and needs to follow a different procedure going forward, the Administration can decide whether it wants to take the decision seriously. But the Salvadorean citizen who is not a US citizen is in El Salvador.
frames Democrats as admirers of the man (rather than as devotees of due process rights)
Because that is how Democrats are behaving. "Maryland dad"! If they weren't many of the same people who put pressure on law firms to not represent Trump and others associated with him during the lawfare campaign, I might be more inclined to believe they care about due process.
The Left's behavior, especially over the last decade, just make me think they like criminals. They're hypocrites. They don't care about laws, laws are just tools in their propaganda fight.
“ a rarely invoked wartime law”
Has the nature of wartime and what constitutes war and an invasion changed such that Trump is correct to invoke the law in this situation?
I cite to the podcast “NatSec Matters” dated August 7, 2024, regarding Venezuela presidential election. The host of the podcast is Michael Morrell, no Trump fan, in fact, a signatory of the Hunter Biden laptop Russia hoax letter. Michael is talking to Venezuela expert Pedro Borelli
Borelli: ““And then we could go deeper into who Nicolas Maduro was. But obviously, you know, he's been in power for 11 years. And the destruction that's happened in these 11 years has actually been obviously much faster than the destruction that occurred in Chávez's period.
Moreell: “And we essentially have today an organized crime group, a narcotics trafficking group, that also happens to run a country. Correct?
Borelli: “I think it's a first real case where you don't have a state that kind of looks to the other side or deals tangentially with criminal organizations. The state itself is a cartel. And this is a very new phenomenon.”
My point: if this is a very new phenomenon, perhaps Trump is not recklessly exceeding the scope of the power he seeks to exert in these MS-13 cases. Perhaps we need to update our thinking on what a foreign invasion is.
the Court enabled the invasion by voiding title 42, so of course they aren't willing to fix what they broke
effendi mahdawi, the jesse smollett of nablus, and khalil who came from where Algeria, Syria et al, are gaming the system
Well said, Mary Beth @8:10am.
so, if instead of deporting these enemies of the state..
Trump just blasted them with Hellfire missiles, would THAT be ok?
or is That only ok when the enemy is a US citizen (and the Pres a dem)?
https://x.com/mishtal/status/1913199154882355663 what i was referring to,
Mary Beth - Indeed.
The court believes that its legitimacy is irrelevant.
Mark, not seeing the forest for the trees. As usual.
well sometimes they were a little cavalier, like when they fired a bunch of cruise missiles at a village, and they missed the main target, of course obama didnt strike any target in north africa or north east syria, in the era when islamic state was rising,
If Trump were acting this way in 2017 during his first term or in 2021, had he won a second term, I would be more concerned, but Biden screwed the pooch. He broke the immigration system and Trump is trying to fix it.
This would be one of those times when Amy Coney Roberts doing the right thing would have been helpful.
that was back when heileman and the other hack were fluffing up obama
A supporter of terrorists here, a member of an organized crime family there… who won’t these progressives cuddle with, narciso?
Trump had all this carp from mueller and the Hawaiian judges in his way, back then,
I love the smell of stray voltage in the morning.
Keep the media arguing about this guy for as long as possible and keep Democrats trying to bring this terrorist back to the US for as long as possible.
magic eightball, they never defend law abiding Americans iman, something the good prosecutor doesn't care about
if he ever did, he shut me out after one post,
just as with austin metcalf's murderer, the sub sharpton hack, said how does the victim's father, have the nerve to show his face,
Is it worth debating this any more:
1. If you believe that the letters/numbers MS13 are really on his hand? No, it's not. Are Althouse readers really that gullible?
2. You believe that people in the USA can be summarily removed in the dead of night to a prison in a foreign country w/o violating their due process rights.
If you believe that is the law, then it is worth discussing. Perhaps you will be convinced that you are wrong on the law. I.e. you have some interest in truth and facts.
3. You believe that he was afforded all the due process he was entitled to under the actual law.
Same answer.
4. You believe people in the USA should be summarily removed to a prison in a foreign country regardless of the law.
Most of you appear to be in this category. Enjoy but the debate doesn't interest me very much. More valuable things to do with my time.
he had been blocked by the Justice Department in 2022, as it was a host of other predators who went on to kill, like the host of terrorists, that they spirited off in the dead of night to restock the management of al Queda and other outfits,
Polling shows that Americans overwhelmingly support deporting illegal immigrant gang bangers. It’s yet another winning issue with NORMAL people, people who are well aware no court stopped Biden from ignoring the law and due process when he used our taxes to fly, bus and ship millions and millions of illegal aliens into America.
Where was OUR due process that is supposed to protect and defend our borders? So after 20 million violations of our sovereignty we are not too concerned about a criminal who was ordered to leave by a judge and sent to his home country. He doesn’t deserve a do-over just because the most radical Democrat leftists want him to have one.
Suspected rioters from J6 were held without charges for YEARS and these same caring politicians with their platitudes about due process said NOTHING. Their indifference to Americans obtaining justice is mirrored by our indifference to Biden’s criminal gangsters getting delayed and slightly sloppy justice.
remember when a swat team pointed an MP-5 at a six year old boy, whose mothers dying wish was for him to come to this country, you can't fool me about what they really intend,
(that happened nearly 25 years ago, April 22, 2000
just like the Sheriff of Holborn and Pancras, my nic for Starmer who covered up Rotherdam and Rochdale rapes,
who put citizens in prison, to protect a known Al Queda operative (the Rwandan lad)
… Oh the games people play now
Every night and every day now
Never meaning what they say now
Never saying what they mean
… And they wile away the hours
In their ivory towers
Till they're covered up with flowers
In the back of a black limousine ....
I see Trump has cleverly shifted the debate from if the alien is MS-13 (he is) to if he has their tattoo(s) and where he has them. Think of the photo as an intrinsically meaningless prop.
Like Joe Biden was for his entire “presidency.” Just a prop.
I appreciate the due process argument. I really do.
But those that willfully let in millions of illegal immigrants but us in a situation where a vast swath of the electorate is willing to say, “screw due process.”
It would be better to do the things to avoid the mess in the first place.
no, its evidence, like how you identify the bratva, but this is the game they played with gitmo detainees, almost had been through Al Queda training camps or where money launderers and suppliers of material to same
one guy, who was a poet, ended up religious adviser to the Yemeni al queda branch
Is there an operative reason why deportees can't pursue their due process rights after removal from outside the US?
the lead case, that the Court handled involved Obamas bodyguard, who had a bazooka in his trunk, when they detained him, that wasn't dispositive,
for more than a hundred years, we tried this folk by military tribunal
There was a due process for coming in and he was happy to skip that.
No due process in - no due process out.
The "devotees of due process" continue to pretend being put in front of two judges in 2019, both of whom affirm that he is "verified as a member of MS-13", doesn't qualify as due process, so it's bad faith from the start.
https://www.justice.gov/ag/media/1396906/dl?inline
For lefties, "due process" means "keep throwing it at judges, a dozen if we have to, until one finally rules the way we want, then stop."
So, throwing open the borders to 15 million illegals over 4 years was done out of simple devotion to due process? Perhaps Grok can explain.
Remember when the Left claimed that visual images of Biden fumbling and bumbling were fake?
Just to confirm my memory I checked with Grok.
“Yes, some on the left claimed that certain images or videos depicting President Joe Biden as incoherent or confused were manipulated or fake. This narrative emerged particularly during the 2024 presidential campaign when videos showing Biden struggling to speak or appearing disoriented circulated widely on social media.”
Standard practice for the Left.
Did you know that the spent fuel rods at nuclear reactors have to be kept cool in deep water tanks for years after they are used. The pumps for circulating the cooling water run on electricity. There are back up diesel generators, but regulations only require a 7 day supply of diesel fuel be kept on hand.
Our power grid is extremely vulnerable to attack by foreign adversaries, terrorists and wackos. Our big transformers are made in China and it has become clear recently that the Chinese may have built in a back door ability to remotely shut them down. Hundreds of these Chinese transformers are on the grid right now. If the grid goes down, the nuclear fuel is just one of the catastrophes that will happen. Without power, most Americans are only 9 meals away from beginning to starve.
Yet here we are, at each others throats over this one guy, instead of working together to insist our ice cream bar melting leaders start working to solve our real problems.
If the grid goes down in the US, 90% of us will die in the first year. If the grid went down in America, KAG would count himself fortunate to be in El Salvador.
Beaker (joe Scarborough) told us this was the best Biden evarr, and if you don't believe it fight me,
John Roberts is compromised.
The only thing I'm sure of is that none of this is about any principle. Past positions prove that. Trump wants to do what he promised, and the American people want, and Democrats want to resist ANYTHING Trump does, no matter how popular it is.
Those tattoos? Taken together with all the other circumstances of his arrest, and the testimony of a known reliable informant? Plus what we know of MS-13 tattoo practices?
Those are definitely gang tattoos.
You've got to be a fucking idiot to keep claiming they aren't.
Let's compare tattoo accusations of Defense Secretary Hegseth and Mr. Garcia. When accused of racism in public hearings based on his tats, the DefSec pointed out that his suspected White Nationalist tat was actually a standard Christian design, as used on the floor of the National Cathedral in DC and on the handout at the recent funeral of former President Carter. Mr. Garcia just had a chance to present to a US Senator similar exculpatory evidence of his tats, if he still has them, yet I have seen no stories about him taking that opportunity. Tattoo interpretations can be problematic, but moreso if they are what the viewer thinks they are.
Dave Begley: In June 1942, German military members dressed as civilians with false papers came ashore in Florida and Louisiana from submarines to sabotage key infrastructure. One turned himself in and reported the others, who were captured, tried by military courts and sentenced. 6 were executed on August 8, 1942, two others were sentenced to long prison terms. So yeah, there's that precedent that covers your hypothetical.
that was the quirin case, that relied on the merryman case, which the court threw out in three successive increments,
now some military tribunals like Yamashitas proved to be defective, largely because leading figures in the Royal Family could not be charged,
Dave B said to our host --
Could you please explain how illegal aliens who have been declared, by the President, to be alien enemies have any due process rights? I thought under SCOTUS precedent that there is no judicial review of actions by the President under the Alien Enemies Act.
Could you please explain how w/o any due process you can determine whether the government may have made an error in its determination that the particular person snatched is covered by the terms of the order. Suppose they were looking for Suzy B Begley but by mistake they picked up your daughter Suzy Q Begley, and shipped her off to a prison in a foreign country for where she can never return.
Sad you care so little about your family.
You guys are all trolling, right?
I have it on good authority (from a US Senator no less) that the marking are from his imitation into The Hasty Pudding Club.
(rather than as devotees of due process rights)
Gullible Althouse actually believes that Democrats believe in due process except as a tactic to thwart a Republican administration.
Whatever process is due is the process that is due. I look forward to getting the Supreme Court to spell it out. It will hear arguments about the need to deal with millions of migrants efficiently and that will be factored in. Once we know what is required, it can be done, because it will be do-able. Trump's opponents are pursuing a strategy of slowing everything down to the point where the task cannot be accomplished at all. That shouldn't survive the Supreme Court's answer to the question what process is due.
Qwinn is exactly right. Kilmar has had his due process. He was adjudicated a member of MS-13 by an immigration court judge and that finding was upheld on appeal. He has an order of removal but the judge stayed that order as to El Salvador because he was in danger from a rival gang.
The only issue in this case is:
Is a member of a designated terrorist organization entitled to a stay of a removal order. I've heard they are not, but I haven't seen a definitive answer to that question.
If members of a designated terrorist organization are not entitled to a stay of removal then he is exactly where he belongs.
If they are entitled to a stay then the admin made a mistake and they should facilitate his return to the US when El Salvador decides to release him and petition the court to lift the stay of removal. If the immigration court denies that petion he stays. If the grant it he goes.
It really is that simple.
But again Qwinn is right. The goal of the left is to make it impossible to deport 15 million illegal aliens by extending the amount of due process due to them and breaking the system. It's the same plan they ran to game and overwhelm the asylum system .
My daughter, Suzy Q, is an American citizen, has no tats and is not a member of a foreign country based gang that has invaded this country.
The President leads a co-equal branch of our government and per the Constitution and the Alien Enemies Act has sole authority to make these determinations which are not subject to judicial review.
IOW, we trust the President and the Executive Branch to do the right thing in this narrow case,
10,000,000+ imported without any "due process" and the judicial branch and pretty much everyone were OK with that for years. But now every single one of those illegal immigrants MUST be provided due process before they can be deported, including the ones who have already been adjudicated for deportation?
Diabolically clever (and suicidal) little game.
that is the point, to make it so onerous, that it's not worth the effort, as so called black lives matter, made it counterproductive to actually fight crime, this is what Susan Rosenberg, the real Capitol Bomber intended,
"Is it worth debating this any more: . If you believe that the letters/numbers MS13 are really on his hand? No, it's not. Are Althouse readers really that gullible?"
It's one of the topics discussed at the Grok link I provided. But it was my first question. Just because it looks like the tattoos are on the hand in the photograph doesn't mean they are there. We shouldn't trust photographs
Have you seen the photo of the shiny plastic hand inside the Blue Horizon capsule supporting the theory that the space shot was fake?
narcisco: A sincere thank you for expanding on my admittedly razor thin historical knowledge. Interesting cases, those.
You're welcome, a departed lefty thesis advisor, imparted these facts, which a subsequent court ignored,
Jim5301 -- the Supremes just answered your question from the TdeA cases. The detained people under the declaration is entitled to Habeas review to determine they are an individual under the declaration. Are they 14 yo or older; are they a member of TdeA and are they a national of Venezuela.
As I understand it, they, like their Al Queda brothers, can petion for Habeas from where they are being held.
Dave Begley - When did you start believing the fed government is incapable of error? On Jan 20 at noon did they go from doing everything wrong to doing everything right?
I ask any lawyer reading this if the stupid Republicans, or anyone else with more than their average of 1.7 brain cells, thought to file suit to prevent the Biden administration from ignoring laws, stopping normal border procedures, and providing waivers/exemptions/free plane flights for immigrants outside the existing legal channels for entry to the US? Just asking. I don't think it would have gone far, except for the publicity, and all the other publicity did nothing to stop the cabal from proceeding with importing new citizenry.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/1645518/two-former-gitmo-detainees-among-afghanistans-most-wanted/
Killing is wrong, but if you conduct a war following that principle when your enemy does not, you will lose the war, and the principle.
well they wouldn't have standing or it's not ripe or some other folderall,
Mike -- Another interesting situation from WWII. In Maine, a German sub was sunk off the coast and a handful of survivors washed ashore. They were arrested by local police and turned over to the military. As I understand it, they were sent to POW camps for the remainder of the war. I don't think the judiciary had any role in that process.
The Supreme Court declares an Easter 🐣 Deportation Pause.
They just can’t call it that. It would not be ‘prudent’ as Bush the father would say.
Defund and deport.
Judge Boasberg for instance used the 1512 statute to bootstrap the sentences of j6 trespassers, reversed by the Courts
even possum judges like Lamberth who let the Waterbuffalo
guy, Chansley sit in jail for four years, with exculpatory evidence,
It’s a move to revive a moribund Christianity.
mikee, a majority of the Republicans in Congress LOVE the illegals and wouldn't lift a finger to try to stop the Democrats from importing them. More cheap labor and more Costco shoppers for their campaign donors, doncha know. The ONLY reason they even pretend to be against illegals is because they fear the wrath of Trump's voters at their re-election time.
Trump alone, essentially, is standing up to this invasion and standing up for the protection of the lives of the citizens of this country. It's genuinely epic, like Leonidas of Sparta or Horatius at the bridge. And the only real backing he has is from the normals who now clearly see that he is the only thing stopping and trying to roll back this invasion.
“…Trump … frames Democrats as admirers of the man (rather than as devotees of due process rights)”. Remember Democrats’ devotion to due process rights when J6 misdemeanants were held without bail and confined in isolation cells? Me neither.
Democrats realize that affording “Democrat due process” to 20 million illegals will grind deportation to a halt. That’s all this is. They are scofflaws absent some political benefit.
If the Supremes persist in supporting this destructive crap Congress should vote to scrap the District Courts burying the CAs and SCOTUS in their own nonsense. The Constitution “is not a suicide pact.”
Dump a handful of them at the homes of the 7 SC Justices. And all the judges on the DC Court.
These cases are won by reality.
If you can’t deport them, just contain them in the areas where the damage is inflicted on Due Process Zealots
I am confused. Did he not claim gang affiliation to avoid being sent back to El Salvador int he first instance because a rival gang would kill him? That argument is now moot because El Salvador got rid of the rival gang which no longer exists. He already had due process on the removal - the only issue was to where. The right answer is that the govt needed to establish to the tribunal that ruled that he could not be deported to El Salvador that it was now safe to send him to El Salvador because (1) he was going to be in jail or (2) the gang no longer existed (or both!). This is being muddied up to get him a new hearing but by my reading of the facts he already had multiple days in court. (For all I know, the immigration court may have already determined that it is now okay to send him back to El Salvador.
The correct solution here is to deport everyone who does not have evidence of legal entry/stay and grant them due process AFTER they have been removed. They can line up and file for re-entry all day long. I'll even buy them and Senator Van Hollen a margarita while they wait.
Trump needs a tutorial in photoshop 🤣
Prof: "Once we know what is required, it can be done, because it will be do-able."
Aren't you assuming that the SCOTUS will prescribe a do-able process? What if the three sisters and the libertarian wing combine to prescribe a deliberately un-do-able process?
Or worse, what if the SCOTUS just says "wrong, do it again" and punts back to the lower courts without saying what "right" looks like?
JSM
Planetgo wins the thread.
Perhaps the effete Republicans in Congress could define due process in deportation cases in such a way that deportation of 20 million might actually take place.
well they could, but then the judges would challenge it,
the Law doesn't matter to them, it's the purpose it can be put toward, so Obama says 'freedom of speech' but as relating to the furthering of 'fundamental transformation' otherwise it's a 'negative right' and hence not applicable,
To be sure, Trump’s photo of Abrego Garcia’s tattoo is fake. But to be fair, everything Trump has said about this case has been a lie. The man is nothing if not consistent.
It is completely insane that people who came to this country illegally get all sorts of due process on the way out.
Apparently the law is contra. The law must be changed. Otherwise, we never get rid of these 20m.
Planetgo is right. Deport now. Due process later.
The deportation pause is reminiscent of the much touted and personal favourite Ramadan Bombing Pause.
Democrats, their media and their courts will bury the country in minutiae. Trump will get caught up in it and The Stupid Party will watch. It’s a helluva thing having to rely on The Stupid Party to save us from The Evil Party.
“Whatever process is due is the process that is due. I look forward to getting the Supreme Court to spell it out.”
Yes the SCOTUS is being a bag of dicks for their weasel mouthed intonations. If they are going to decide, decide and be done. This game of badminton ends to stop,
This is a clown car in the middle of a dumpster fire.
When are the Republicans in the House and Senate going to grow up and say enough is enough?
What is it going to take? Sending US citizens to the gulag in El Salvador? Russia taking over all of Ukraine? Annexing Greenland? The tanking of the global economy?
Ann Althouse said...
Whatever process is due is the process that is due. I look forward to getting the Supreme Court to spell it out. It will hear arguments about the need to deal with millions of migrants efficiently and that will be factored in. Once we know what is required, it can be done, because it will be do-able. Trump's opponents are pursuing a strategy of slowing everything down to the point where the task cannot be accomplished at all. That shouldn't survive the Supreme Court's answer to the question what process is due.
This is garbage. Nowhere in the constitution does it say the Supreme Court defines due process.
This is a legislative and executive power to define. The court system is meant to implement.
It is time for Marbury v. Madison to be torn down and for the black robed Pharisees to all be replaced. Our entire legal system needs to be rebuilt and a whole generation of "Judges" need to be retired.
The "Judges" will obviously rule that they have the unassailable position they have granted themselves with Marbury v. Madison.
They will not do the right thing themselves. This will have to be done by force.
mikee said...
"In June 1942, German military members dressed as civilians with false papers came ashore in Florida and Louisiana from submarines to sabotage key infrastructure. One turned himself in and reported the others, who were captured, tried by military courts and sentenced. 6 were executed on August 8, 1942, two others were sentenced to long prison terms."
I'll just add that all eight spent a substantial portion of their lives in the US, and two were US citizens, including one of the executed.
After the war, President Truman suspended the sentences of the two survivors on the condition of deportation and were barred from re-entering the US. One of these was a US citizen.
If I’m lyin’ I’m dyin’…
https://x.com/ILA_NewsX/status/1913376264922288474?s=19
"Democrats as admirers of the man (rather than as devotees of due process rights)"
I don't think it's as simple as that. Most of the Progressives that I know are just screaming that the Trump administration is lying when it says that Mr. Garcia is a gang member and they're posting up his family photos to make him look like a good family man. When I bring up that the real issue here is that he was deported without a trial first to establish whether he was a gang member or not, they accuse me of taking Trump's side. (Because they don't believe that Mr. Garcia should ever be deported or face a trial.)
Only a few of my Progressive friends actually care about the due process issue. Most just think that a good man was falsely accused of being a gang member and wrongfully deported.
The more they hate Trump, the more they like Mr. Garcia.
He's not a gang member. The tattoos are just to cover up the injuries on his fingers. The poor guy's fists had an accidental and unfortunate encounter with his wife's face. Poor baby.
I don't know if the tattoos are real or if they are gang symbols, but I have found sources from several years ago before this kerfuffle that confirm that his attire when arrested in the presence of MS13 members are gang related. That includes his black Chicago Bulls hat, which you can see in the NY Post article about him. Horns are a symbol of MS13, and it's important that the hat wasn't red like the Bulls' team color. MS13's color is blue and red would be a big no-no.
"What is it going to take? Sending US citizens to the gulag in El Salvador? Russia taking over all of Ukraine? Annexing Greenland? The tanking of the global economy?"
What it took was bringing in 20 million illegal aliens without due process, many of them criminals, spies, and saboteurs. The cost of that will far outweigh your imaginary non-events.
I guess the scrotus endgame is clear. They are going to make about 10 decisions on immigration deportation based on a random number generator and then, when you are inured to them they will have a massive major decision in support of Trump in some unrelated area.
This keeps everyone on their toes and keeps the parties hopes up, and concentrates the scrotus hate to one single event that can be soon forgotten.
Just imagine Trump did what Biden did just because these illegal immigrants would vote Republican and/or increase representation in red states. Every Democrat would be saying the exact opposite about "principles", because they have none.
a consistent principle would be nice on sunday, they said you can deport on thursday they said no, a week later they change their mind again,
"Have you seen the photo of the shiny plastic hand inside the Blue Horizon capsule supporting the theory that the space shot was fake?"
That one was easy to debunk. The photo of Mr. Garcia's hand...no so much.
There is one way to conclusively prove that he has MS 13 tattooed on his hand: Bring him back for a trial and let the media see his hand in person.
Because we now live in a world of dueling photoshop images, we can't trust any photos that come from any source that might have a bias one way or the other.
I am disappointed that the Trump administration is playing these games. It diminishes the office of the President. If they really have the goods on Mr. Garcia they need to try and "pursuade" El Salvador to return him for trial. (Trump needs to make the President of El Salvador an offer he can't refuse.)
"Once we know what is required, it can be done, because it will be do-able." Since that is not any species of logic, I assume it must be a species of faith. Namely, faith that the Supreme Court will not decide that "what is required" is something impossible. The Court will not order the baby given to both women, as that is not possible. The Court, in its practical wisdom, will order the baby split in two, and divided between the two women.
If I recall the summary of the Enemy Alien Act as argued by the Trump administration, it appears to have been written specifically for situations other than a fully declared war.
I understand (from comments on Althouse) that Kilmar Abrego Garcia may have abused his wife but I still don’t believe, given the values enshrined in the constitution and the principles of the rule of law, that he should become Secretary of Defense. 🤔
it arose out the Brush with revolutionary france, where the latter had propagandists for their side,
An immigration judge already found Garcia was a member of MS-13 and ordered him deported 6 years ago. Just said he can’t be deported to El Salvador because he’s in danger from a rival gang.
There’s no reason for the US to bring him back here. Trump can ask El Salvador President to send him to Pakistan
Take off his shirt, end the controversy.
“Enjoy but the debate doesn't interest me very much. More valuable things to do with my time.”
Goodness… whatever shall we do!?! 🙄
Good quality recent image here. It blows up real good.
We do all understand that the MS13 lettering above the tattoos in Trump's photo were added as an interpretation of their meaning, don't we?
If the Supreme Court sides with MS-13 on the Alien Enemies Issue then Trump can just declare them enemy combatants and move them to Gitmo like regular terrorists.
Limitless moves at his disposal.
Althouse wrote:
"Trump's opponents are pursuing a strategy of slowing everything down to the point where the task cannot be accomplished at all. That shouldn't survive the Supreme Court's answer to the question what process is due."
Thanks for acknowledging that. Could you clarify what you mean by "shouldn't?"
Yes unfortunately they are that gullible,whatever their master says is gospel. TDS in action every post. :(
Trump has maneuvered the Democrats into embracing illegal alien gangbangers. Will five or more Supreme Court Justices make the same choice?
It’s not TDS. It’s the luxury beliefs of the well off.
Just contain MS-13 to the areas where those with luxury beliefs live.
Start with Cambridge Massachusetts and Chevy Chase Maryland
How is everyone going to feel in 6 years when President AOC is using the Alien Enemy's Act to imprison abortion protestors in pursuit of the "War on Women"?
This is about executive power and the Constitution. Just because you happen to like the guy wielding the hammer, does not mean the office should that particular hammer to swing.
Biden let in 10 million illegals.
What judge stopped that?
The Constitution and laws mean nothing.
Did Joe Biden or the Democrats run on Open Borders? Did the Democrats in the Senate and House adopt legislation abolishing the US borders, or indeed making any change to immigration laws? But somehow, ordering ICE to stand aside while 15-20 million illegals crossed the border does not raise any legal due process concerns at all. Nor does the adoption and implementation of sanctuary laws by every Blue State and city over the last 8 years. In not a single case in that period did SCOTUS see fit to address open defiance of immigration laws by Biden or Democratic States or cities. But suddenly in Trump's first 100 days, enforcement of the border and immigration laws of the US must stop immediately, all in the name of Due Process. And Althouse wonders why commenters are skeptical that SCOTUS will fashion a process that allows deportation of any significant number of illegals?
The progressive principle is: all's fair in lust and abortion.
Kakistocracy said...
I understand (from comments on Althouse) that Kilmar Abrego Garcia may have abused his wife but I still don’t believe, given the values enshrined in the constitution and the principles of the rule of law, that he should become Secretary of Defense. 🤔
Rich is of course referring to a democrat lie about Hegseth beating his wife which even the person Democrats say made the allegation said is a complete lie.
Rich will go to any lengths to protect the illegal voters democrats want to import and wants to pay them tax payer dollars to be here and vote for democrats.
People like Rich will always undermine the societies they live in because for them it is always about power over other people. They will tell any lie and go to any length to get power. He sees American citizens who disagree with him as the enemy and he will ally with foreign invaders to defeat us.
At some point we all need to understand people like Rich are completely incompatible with a free high trust society.
Only a few of my Progressive friends actually care about the due process issue. Most just think that a good man was falsely accused of being a gang member and wrongfully deported.
Except for the "few", your "Progressive" friends are fucking morons. Or maybe they just are monkeys flying out of your butt that are telling you what your "Progressive friends".
D.D. Driver said...
How is everyone going to feel in 6 years when President AOC is using the Alien Enemy's Act to imprison abortion protestors in pursuit of the "War on Women"?
This is about executive power and the Constitution. Just because you happen to like the guy wielding the hammer, does not mean the office should that particular hammer to swing.
This is a stupid argument made by a dishonest person.
Abrego has had many court appearances taking up hours of time in our justice system amounting to thousands or taxpayer dollars. He was found by a court to have among other things be a member of a terrorist gang organization of which he bears numerous gang affiliated tattoos. He has been cited for domestic battery. He is implicated in a wide variety of gang activities including human trafficking.
And if there ever was a President AOC DD Driver knows perfectly well that she would never let a court or any law stop her from doing what she and the left want to do.
We are not in a political disagreement with people who have good intentions but different ideas on how to do things. We are in an existential conflict with people who are willing to use or break any law and use the system to gain power over other people, take our stuff, and throw their opponents in jail.
Nobody thinks your argument is smart or high minded. At this point the only reason to make that argument is you are stupid or you are on the other side.
Freder Frederson said...
Only a few of my Progressive friends actually care about the due process issue. Most just think that a good man was falsely accused of being a gang member and wrongfully deported.
Except for the "few", your "Progressive" friends are fucking morons. Or maybe they just are monkeys flying out of your butt that are telling you what your "Progressive friends".
We know you don't care about due process. You only wish to use the principle to keep you illegal voters in the country.
The J6 protestors were routinely deprived of due process for years and you cheered that on. Now you cry crocodile tears over the illegal voters, gang members and wife beaters Joe Biden imported into the country. Get f'd Freder. You are not a good person and your actions and deeds proved your real intentions.
Let us suppose that, instead of landing El Salvador, the plane carrying Abrego had crashed into the Gulf of America, and Abrego had been killed. Would it then be incumbent upon the Trump administration to bring him back from the dead? As Althouse assures us, what is not possible is not required. Abrego was sent to El Salvador in violation of a court order, but not in violation of any right that he possesses. If El Salvador does not wish to return him, how, short of war, is the Trump administration to bring him back? The violation is no doubt egregious, but nonetheless moot.
Professor:
You said, "Trump's opponents are pursuing a strategy of slowing everything down to the point where the task cannot be accomplished at all. That shouldn't survive the Supreme Court's answer to the question what process is due."
Isn't that political, not legal reasoning? Should the Court's decision of what due process illegal aliens are entitled to be scaled to how many illegal immigrants there are?
4/19/25, 10:06 AM
I mean this kind of crap might help you get though the day but one day in the near future you’re gonna wake up and realize you’re the bad guys. It might be before they’re waiting in your office when you get to work or it may be when they’re waiting in your office when you go to work…but the good guys will be waiting…
Here are the two answers:
1. Congress removes habeas jurisdiction from the federal courts with respect to illegal aliens, enemy combatants and people covered under the Alien Enemies Act; and
2. The President suspends the writ of habeas corpus as to those people covered under the Alien Enemies Act.
If Lincoln could do it, so can Trump.
Don’t count on Congress doing the right thing…
The J6 protestors were routinely deprived of due process for years and you cheered that on.
I'm pretty sure that I remained silent about whether the J6 protesters were deprived of due process or not, and I certainly did not cheer that on. If you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it. And "the monkeys flying out of my butt told me that is what you said" is not valid evidence.
Abrego was sent to El Salvador in violation of a court order, but not in violation of any right that he possesses.
Are you seriously contending that a court order is not a right that someone possesses?
Let there be no doubt which side the American left has chosen. And it's not the legal residents and citizens of the United States.
Bunch of fifth-column thugs.
Abrego Garcia has no facial tattoos, so that's a plus for him, but the whole thing has the feel of manufactured outrage, as the flood of posters and t-shirts coming out now suggests.
We're at the point when we realize that NGOs, public interest groups, and crusading attorneys are as capable of lying as governments and evil corporations are. There is something Alinskian about the whole campaign. Looking over Alinsky's rules for radicals, though, it occurs to me that some of Trump's tactics have been Alinskian as well.
Are you seriously contending that a court order is not a right that someone possesses?
He's already had TWO deportation hearings, asshole. How many more should he have? Three? Four? One Hundred?
He should've been tossed outta here years ago.
Is it weird that "Kilmar Abrego Garcia" and "Keep America Great" have the same initials?
Way to be complicit in fraudulent propaganda, AA.
"I ask any lawyer reading this if the stupid Republicans, or anyone else with more than their average of 1.7 brain cells, "
Yes, The AG of Texas did file suit against the Feds for not enforcing the immigration law or protecting the border. And it got nowhere. You need to understand - District judges can do anything. They say X has standing, and Y doesn't. They can say the feds aren't doing what they should - but not issue an injunction against anything. And they do the opposite.
people need to get this idea out their minds - Democrart Judges are NOT making rulings based on the constitution and the law - they are making their rulings based on their POLITICS.
That's why in 90 percent of the cases, the 3 Democrat SCOTUS judges vote as a bloc - no matter what the issue is.
The judicial branch is out of control and is not following the constitution or anything else except their personal beliefs and politics. If you think otherwise, you've got your head in the sand.
I imagine this Garcia fella is having quite a laugh at the various contortions and goings on in the US in his name. Aliens are taking note.
From The Contrarian:
The Supreme Court's April 7 ruling should have heeded the dissents of Justices Sonia Sotomayor, Elena Kagan, Ketanji Brown Jackson, and Amy Coney Barrett. The female side of the court figured out exactly what Trump was up to. The Government’s position implies that not only noncitizens but also United States citizens could be taken off the streets, forced onto planes, and confined to foreign prisons with no opportunity for redress if judicial review is denied unlawfully before removal.
Thanks to more threats from Trump about more flights to the foreign gulag, which might include "homebodies," the Supremes issued this clarification (7-2) overnight:
"To the extent the Government removes even one individual without affording him notice and a meaningful opportunity to file and pursue habeas relief, it does so in direct contravention of an edict by the United States Supreme Court."
Guantanamo it is, then.
I used to drive through Gainesville, Georgia to go to discount building supply stores. I don't anymore after getting caught in traffic in a SWAT takedown of South American gangs. On a strip of HW 53, one side of the road is Dominican and the other mostly Mexican and El Salvadorian. Just south of Gainesville, by the poultry plants, is now essentially a no-go zone, and I'm aware of my surroundings, having lived for 20 years in the worst parts of Atlanta.
I used to stop for crema and corn tamales and always tip very well, but the waitress eventually warned me off from coming back. The Dominican and El Salvadorian gangs are spreading from Gainesville farther north to Cleveland and, ironically, Helen, Georgia, a fake Alpine Village built by veterans returning from WWII. I was looking for a house around there, and the agent's Puerto Rican husband, a great guy, warned me off.
The Republican Poultry Mafia, joined by the radical left Democrats, made this happen. I never took Civil Procedure, so I can't speak to the abstract issues as well as others, but I know enough about enforcement of pieces of paper to know that this man could and can and should have been deported, if enforcing the law matters at all.
I'm just describing what it looks like on the ground. Today is Holy Saturday. If I could, tomorrow I'd be in Church with my good and decent Mexican and Phillipino and Jamacian and black and white brothers and sisters in Christ.
These are the people who are paying the highest price for politicians from both Parties letting the thugs in. It's like an even more chaotic Marieal Boatlift crisis. It makes that look quaint. Ironically, from my last house in Atlanta, I was walking distance from the federal prison where those riots broke out.
My family has been fleeing urban and illegals crime for 120 years now. They never talked about it. It's time to talk about it. It's absurd to parse laws that have been castrated by mass and intentional unenforcement. The baby already drowned in the bathwater.
It is total and complete BS to think the President would snatch up American citizens and send them to CECOT. It's another liberal scare tactic.
As a country we are at a crossroads. We either get rid of the worst of the worst of the illegal aliens or we are finished as a country.
That's why I think Congress or the President must act. Congress can remove habeas jurisdiction from federal courts with respect to people covered by the Alien Enemies Act, alien combatants and regular illegal aliens.
Congress won't act so it is up to the President. He suspends the writ of habeas corpus for those people he finds are subject to the Alien Enemies Act.
What bad thing is going to happen to Trump if he does it? Are they going to throw him jail? Bankrupt him? Kill him? Oh, they tried all three and it didn't work.
How is everyone going to feel in 6 years when President AOC is using the Alien Enemy's Act to imprison abortion protestors in pursuit of the "War on Women"?
Every time I see this argument I wonder if it's simply being argued in bad faith to try and score a cheap point or if people are really this ignorant. Perhaps Grok can clue me in.
I'm pretty sure that I remained silent about whether the J6 protesters were deprived of due process or not, and I certainly did not cheer that on.
But you're not silent now. So why do you care more about this guy than the J6 people?
Isn't one of the Govt's objectives to "encourage" illegal immigrants to "self-deport"? Doesn't all the scare news about the Salvadoran prison serve that objective? If you self-deport you don't have to worry about ending up in that Salvadoran prison. If Garcia had self-deported to some nice place, wouldn't he be a lot better off?
"He's already had TWO deportation hearings, asshole. How many more should he have? Three? Four? One Hundred?"
As many as it takes for the Democrats to get the result they desire. And then, that's it- *that* decision can never be questioned.
A few thoughts…
The progressives here that supported Bill and Hillary Clinton are bullshitters. This El Salvadoran has received more due process than Elian Gonzalez.
Multiple government entities from international, federal, and state levels have determined Abrego Garcia is a member of MS-13. That’s not even the legal dispute at matter.
The legal dispute is Abrego Garcia’s claim of asylum being adjudicated. His fear of being deported wasn’t that the El Salvador government would persecute him. He was afraid rival gangs would kill him. I don’t think the EU Human Rights Convention covers that BS excuse for asylum.
As for due process for illegal aliens in general, consider that everyday, people try to enter the US unlawfully through lawful ports of entry. Those people are deported immediately at their own expense at the next available opportunity. Everyday. As Dershowitz noted, Trump could have simply deported people on the fact they entered illegally.
I’m fine for SCOTUS review, but it needs to be on the question of what is grounds for granting asylum. I don’t think judges should have the right to hold those hearings on the grounds that Abrego Garcia has requested.
The point made by the El Salvadoran President is Abrego Garcia’s asylum claims are moot, because he was being protected by the government of El Salvador from the harm he feared. He’s also an El Salvadoran citizen, so “deporting” him back to the US is moot.
Finally, because someone was stupid enough to make this argument, I am worried about Democrats abusing US citizens rights. They already proven this from Clinton, to Obama, to Biden. Hidden by the news of Abrego Garcia is the billions spent by the last Administration to deny freedom of speech for all Americans. Plus the news that Biden had plans to deny Second Amendment freedoms under claims of terrorism. And Democrats are trying to give these illegal aliens the right to vote, so Democrats can retain power, to make new laws to abuse citizens. If you worry about progressive abuse of power, then you should be supporting Trump.
Steven Miller is a student of history. Sometime soon, Trump will sign an EO declaring that the writ of habeas corpus is suspended as to illegal aliens who are members of MS-13 and TdeA.
Just watch. I’m calling my shot.
The Democrats don't give a shit about habeas corpus (see: J6), it's about being opposed to whatever Trump does, all the time.
Simple as that.
"Just watch. I’m calling my shot."
Considering the history of your predictions I have to say that I admire your persistence.
When I was in law school we were required to take 2 semesters of Constitutional Law, Con Law I and Con Law II. We had no choice. It was required as part of your first year curriculum. Because it was so important. We spent a LOT of time on the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment. I took some deep intellectual dives trying to figure everything out in my head, but my ultimate conclusion was that due process is a very good thing. Sort of like free speech in the First Amendment. It is a check against government power. So my conclusion is that more due process is better than less due process.
Freder Frederson said...
The J6 protestors were routinely deprived of due process for years and you cheered that on.
I'm pretty sure that I remained silent about whether the J6 protesters were deprived of due process or not, and I certainly did not cheer that on. If you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it. And "the monkeys flying out of my butt told me that is what you said" is not valid evidence.
He is your chance to defend the overwhelmingly peaceful J6 protestors and your fellow citizens just as hard as you are defending the illegal alien wife beating human trafficker from MS13 who was determined to be a member of MS13 in two different court appearances already.
We all know you are lying by the way. You have been going on about Trump and the J6 insurrection for years. Get F'd you lying sack of crap.
We cannot have nice things until the people trying to tear the country down are all shipped to somewhere else.
lonejustice said...
When I was in law school we were required to take 2 semesters of Constitutional Law, Con Law I and Con Law II. We had no choice. It was required as part of your first year curriculum. Because it was so important. We spent a LOT of time on the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment. I took some deep intellectual dives trying to figure everything out in my head, but my ultimate conclusion was that due process is a very good thing. Sort of like free speech in the First Amendment. It is a check against government power. So my conclusion is that more due process is better than less due process.
Abrega has had multiple court appearances and multiple deportation orders and been found by a court to be a gang member.
You are making a stupid argument and lying by omission to make that bad argument.
All of these scumbag "conservatives" spouting their "principles" are transparently just on the other side.
They want cheap labor imported for oligarchs to exploit and to vote democrat. That is all that is going on here.
Grok let me know that the Biden administration deported about 600,000 people during his term. Due process? Who asked about that?
The funny thing about tattoos is that there are plenty of people that have them, and plenty that routinely cover them up, for employment or other good reasons - including shame, or trying to avoid suspicion. Just because they show or don't show, proves nothing. You know who will have photographic proof? The arresting police department usually makes sure they get them, when booking in a subject.
As I understand it, a court found sufficient evidence to rule that the 'Maryland Wife-Beating Dad'' was a gang member, and this was upheld on appeal. Two courts, in other words. I also understand that upon arrest, he was found with quantities of drugs and wads of cash.
"lonejustice said: So my conclusion is that more due process is better than less due process."
****************
Dersh and other Constitutional scholars will tell you that "due process is the Process that you are Due", and nothing more or less.
The Enemy Alien statute explictly says its invocation and execution by the POTUS is not subject to judicial review, so only Trump and executive branch agencies can determine what "process" is "due".
Lonejustice:
But what due process is afforded to illegal alien gangsters who have invaded our country? Why do they get ANY due process?
The Trump Administration war gamed this whole thing out on super computers. They knew the Fake News would call KAG a Maryland Man. They knew a Dem Senator or Congresman would fly to El Salvador. They knew how SCOTUS would rule.
Now watch Trump blow this whole thing up with his trump card: suspend the writ of habeas corpus. The speech is already written.
My fellow Americans. During the Civil War - the darkest days of our Republic - one of our greatest presidents found it necessary to suspend the writ…”
Begley: one big difference between Trump and Lincoln/FDR/Wilson/etc is that Trump does not have much of a congressional majority.
FDR had enough of a majority to threaten the SCOTUS with packing. Lincoln had most of the Dems boycotting Congress. Wilson had a majority 1915-1917.
It's easier to bully the courts when the other political branch is on your side.
JSM
Isn't it amazing how Roberts and scum are willing to use the All Writs Act to protect TdA members from being deported to El Salvador, but were NOT willing to use it to stop Newsome from trampling over Americans religious liberty?
Just stick a fork in the USA. It's finished.
"Now watch Trump blow this whole thing up with his trump card: suspend the writ of habeas corpus. The speech is already written."
We always knew you liked dictators, Dave. Nice to hear you finally come out. well, about at least that.
I'm sure GROK is the niftiest toy evah! But when did it (or any AI) begin being treated as Gospel?
Grok summary: because it can be photoshopped it is unproven.
"To the extent the Government removes even one individual without affording him notice and a meaningful opportunity to file and pursue habeas relief, it does so in direct contravention of an edict by the United States Supreme Court."
I'm a little late to this game, but what is the Althouse position on whether the Supreme Court can issue "edicts" to the Executive--or to anyone other than courts subject to their direction?
Boatbuilder
SCOTUS doesn’t issue advisory opinions. There must be a case and controversy before the Court.
Hmmm. Let's see. How many ILLEGAL immigrants gave us notice before sneaking into our country?
So, Gadfly. The Supreme Court is establishing law by issuing edicts now? Our laws are determined by edicts from the Supreme Court? Then why do we need a president or a congress?
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