The NYT reports.
The NYT writer — Shawn McCreesh — observes "There is no power in the Constitution or case law to undo a pardon, and there is no exception to pardons signed by autopen," but to say that is to look past the question whether there was a pardon. Even if a pardon can't be undone, how do we know it was ever done? We have a piece of writing, signed by autopen, and maybe it can be shown to have originated within the White House. The power that is in the Constitution is given to "The President," so, interpreting that clause, one might question whether his hand must do the signing... and whether his mind comprehended what he was doing.
But I can't believe courts would entertain challenges like that. It's the ultimate can of worms. Consider the parallel problem in the exercise of power within the judicial branch. We assume that the judicial opinions that emerge from the usual channels are signed/"signed" by the judges whose names appear on them and that the judges minds made the decisions that appear in the words of the text. We may well suspect that law clerks wrote the some of the opinions and even that some of the judges don't understand "their" own opinions. But we accept that they are what they purport to be. Beyond that lies chaos.
ADDED: Here is Trump's post on Truth Social:
The “Pardons” that Sleepy Joe Biden gave to the Unselect Committee of Political Thugs, and many others, are hereby declared VOID, VACANT, AND OF NO FURTHER FORCE OR EFFECT, because of the fact that they were done by Autopen. In other words, Joe Biden did not sign them but, more importantly, he did not know anything about them! The necessary Pardoning Documents were not explained to, or approved by, Biden. He knew nothing about them, and the people that did may have committed a crime. Therefore, those on the Unselect Committee, who destroyed and deleted ALL evidence obtained during their two year Witch Hunt of me, and many other innocent people, should fully understand that they are subject to investigation at the highest level. The fact is, they were probably responsible for the Documents that were signed on their behalf without the knowledge or consent of the Worst President in the History of our Country, Crooked Joe Biden!
AND: Based on the text of that Truth Social post, I'd say Trump is, first, clearing the way for doing an investigation that will produce evidence of wrongdoing (if there was any and perhaps even if there wasn't) and that will feel deeply painful to the persons whose actions are targeted. He wants those people to "fully understand" what it's like to be subjected to a "Witch Hunt," as he believes he was. And, second, he wants to smoke out who took over and exercised the power of the presidency if/when Biden was incapacitated. He's already asserting that the people who received the pardons/"pardons" were "probably responsible" for manufacturing the fake/"fake" documents.
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233 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 233 of 233Maybe the point is to get the pardon question into court because it will bring along with it the so far unadjudicated question of preemptive pardons.
Arguments for it aren't extremely strong.
I'd be sweating if I were on the list.
An invalidation would also bring the pleasure, for some, of peeing on Nixon's grave.
When I was practicing law, I advised clients about the legal consequences of the documents they signed.
If you are defending a client who was granted immunity by a document that Joe Biden (allegedly) signed, defend your client to the max! Who cares? Whether or not he was competent?
Dinky has a bad habit of expressing every thought he emits from his hinky hindquarters.
“ He’s been a celebrity for a long time, and that’s part of building a brand.”
As a (retired) IP attorney, I found it interesting that Trump® is a Registered US Trademark. Noticed it first on the hotel’s new “house cars”’ (they switched this year from distinctive grey to standard black Escalades).
Jim said...
Did Trump sign those pardons with an auto-pen? Because that's what's being discussed here.
Rusty said...
No, Jim. What's being discussed here is whether Biden knew that the Auto-Pen was being used in his name. Big difference.
A hand signature by Trump largely obviates the issue of intent and delegation of authority associated with an autopen, so I agree with Jim that an actual signature is likely dispositive of the issue.
And as I point out above, the autopen issue is hardly closed simply by analogy when applied to a pardon.
Even as far as the OLC opinion is concerned, signing a bill into law with an autopen is NOT the same as issuing a veto of that same legislation -- or, as I would argue by extension, granting a pardon.
""I would rather see litigated the question of whether the president’s power to pardon includes grants of immunity from prosecution, which is what these “pardons” really were."
Yes.
Fun fact: I have an original land grant from the 1860's, with Abraham Lincoln's signature. As it turns out, the distinctive signature was placed there by W. D. Stoddard, whose own signature also appears on the document. Apparently Congress specifically authorized the President to appoint a Secretary to sign the President's name on land grants, and Stoddard held that position.
I have copies of several old ancestral land grants, and they are all like that. I think that was standard practice in those days.
Was this issue ever litigated? Woodrow Wilson's suffered a massive stroke and his wife ran the government. It seems like someone would have made the same argument Trump is making now back then.
I don't think the physical act of signing a paper has anything to do with the legal authority behind a presidential action.
Even if it was at one point the docusign law changed that.
This is very similar to the Democrats pretending that Trump hadn't done the proper paperwork to declassify the documents he took to Maralago.
The main difference here is that Biden was likely being taken advantage of by malevolent staffers and not in full control of his faculties.
Is using an Autopen to pardon criminals anything like clicking "I agree" on the "Terms and Conditions" for just about everything these days?
I am hoping there's a little more to it.
As expected this is just another Trump tarbaby tossed out in front of the frothing leftists:
“Reports suggest Neera Tanden, Biden’s former White House Staff Secretary, may have used the autopen to sign pardons while President Biden was golfing in St. Croix in December 2022. The Oversight Project pointed out that six individuals received pardons during Biden’s vacation on December 30, 2022, raising concerns that the president may not have been present or fully aware that the pardons were being signed.”
Pretty likely Trump has evidence that Biden was "on vacation" while a bunch of these pardons were signed.
Also Hur basically said that Biden was not competent to stand trial so he didn't charge Biden for the crimes he committed on those grounds. This essentially renders Biden's actions after that point not his own.
“Hereby declared VOID, VACANT, AND OF NO FURTHER FORCE OR EFFECT”
If it’s a feeling of a witchunt to be communicated, then Al "Jazzbo" Collins and Lou Stein, "Little Red Riding Hood," (A Grimm Fairy Tale For Hip Kids) 1953 doesn’t give the big bad wolf any advance notice that wolf season opened that very day, when a hunter came by, so that wolf immunity was “Hereby declared VOID, VACANT, AND OF NO FURTHER FORCE OR EFFECT.” “Dad,” said Red gratefully to the hunter, “your timing was like ‘the end,’ you know. And so it was.”
The spectrum of the feeling to be communicated starts with wolves at rest.
To add classier modes of communication to these to-be-communicated-feelings of being hunted, let the wolves at rest imagine Jeanne Moreau undressing in their private bathrooms, for a fresh bath, before a moment of recreation, until she walks away, as the bride wore black. Whether litigated or never litigated, the pardon in advance, or the pardon after the fact, does not immunize against pardoned wolves hunted in the general population, or wolves with fake pardons voided and convicted in prison, awaiting a tasty prison meal, yet hunted in food tray deliveries by Jeanne Moreau, if witchcraft ever had innocent eyes.
The feeling to be communicated is the feeling of being hunted. The feeling of a witch hunt - is still the feeling of a “hunt.” At least if the witch is Jeanne Moreau, what a way to go.
How did Trump feel being hunted? Even shot? Hunted by wolves in the general population, or politics, now pardoned?
Let them guess what evidence he has.
I think Trump is doing this not so much because he thinks the "pardons" will somehow be declared invalid, but to generate focus on what the pardoned people did.
The J6 Committee. For example. Why would the members of the J6 Committee, who have legislative immunity for whatever they even quasi-legitimately do or say in their capacity as legislators, need a pardon? (Suborning perjury comes to mind).
The Dems and their sycophants in the press have always operated on the principle of doing whatever it takes this week; we'll bury this, the people will forget and we'll move on to the next shiny object. Trump remembers, though. he's saying: "Not so fast."
At the very least they should be forced to consider the possibility that they might be held to account for their crimes. After destroying people for "crimes" they didn't commit, or for minor infractions such as "trespassing", a few sleepless nights seems like a small price to pay.
"HMM: Is This the Aide Behind Biden’s Controversial Autopen Signings? “Reports suggest Neera Tanden, Biden’s former White House Staff Secretary, may have used the autopen to sign pardons while President Biden was golfing in St. Croix in December 2022."
I have no problem seeing Neera Tanden gleefully signing anything she wants with the boss away.
What Bruce Hayden said
https://althouse.blogspot.com/2025/03/president-trump-wrote-on-social-media.html?showComment=1742246601210#c3824736166206621463
In two days alone, it has been reported that over 1,000 people each day were pardoned or had commuted sentences. Jan 17th they announced nearly 2,490. In one day in December the number was reported as 1,499. Nor did all the pardons/commutations match what Biden said about them.
The presumption is surely that they are valid, but if questioned for some reason, I would wonder.
Anyone can see these on line for each president. The clemency warrants for the two Biden mass action days are not individual.
https://www.justice.gov/pardon/clemency-recipients
So see this one, for example. "For offenses described to the Department of Justice".
https://www.justice.gov/pardon/media/1385591/dl?inline
This one just lists commutations of prison terms by the new end date and name
https://www.justice.gov/pardon/media/1380216/dl?inline
I have questions.
Achilles said...
I don't think the physical act of signing a paper has anything to do with the legal authority behind a presidential action.
Even if it was at one point the docusign law changed that.
Uh- no. Not even close. Contracts aren't in the Constitution. They're defined by and a part of laws passed by legislatures and signed into law.
The president's signature is part of the Constitution. And Congressional action cannot change that. The president can veto a law, requiring a signature, or pocket veto it by taking no action and within 10 days (Sunday excepted) the Congress adjourns, sign it, in which case it becomes law, or not sign it and Congress stays in session, and 10 days later (Sunday excepted) the bill becomes law.
A pardon is not a contract. But there has to be some proof the President was the person who granted the pardon. Notably the Constitution doesn't say the pardon needs to be signed. It can be verbal- which would likely require a public audience or address so the validity cannot be doubted. John Doe- "President Potatohead told me I was pardoned." wouldn't be acceptable, for example. And there are examples of such verbal pardons- it's traditional for Cadets or Midshipmen to be pardoned by POTUS for minor offenses during a presidential visit. And I could find absolutely nothing about that on google or duckduckgo. But having been there when it happened I know it happens...
..or what "Viva Maria" said.
I think.
Is the "baseless right-wing conspiracy theory" that Biden used an autopen? There's proof of many identical signatures. That he was cognitively impaired? We've all accepted that now. If it's that he didn't know what was being signed by the autopen, that's unproven but hardly "baseless." (I'm sure he knew about his son's pardon, but what about all the others?) I think Biden could issue a statement saying he authorized all the pardons and that would be the end of it.
"I'm not quite sure how this would complicate the position of a prosecutor with regard to the 5th Amendment privileges of a pardoned person."
What I'm saying is that everyone who got a pardon is going to say that Trump says they were not in fact pardoned, so they are still going to insist on taking the fifth, because Trump might still try to prosecute them.
Biden's own Justice Dept determined Biden couldn't be held responsible for crimes due to his dementia. That raises questions about everything he signed and he apparently signed almost everything with the Autopen.
Has anyone from the Biden WH been asked, why did he sign almost everything with the Autopen?
Has Joe?
Has the NYT asked anybody that question? I doubt it. Instead they dismiss it as a RW conspiracy theory.
That has become their go to way of avoiding asking tough questions.
Funny, it used to be those on the receiving end tried to avoid tough questions from journalists. Now it's the "journalists" who look for ways to avoid tough questions.
Vai via!
Vatene!
the President may sign a bill within the meaning of Article I, Section 7 by directing a subordinate to affix the President’s signature to such a bill, for example by autopen.
Agreed. Show us some proof that Biden directed a subordinate to affix his signature to each existing pardon, worded exactly as it issued, with all names of those pardoned already present when Biden read it. That is the issue, not whether a mentally competent President with full knowledge of the contents of a bill can direct it be signed by autopen (although the latter has never been tested in court).
Trump could have scotched the pardons this knowing this would get 225+ comments on Althouse!
Also, for those pushing to challenge the pardons by arresting Hunter, he might be the only one that Biden made (or at least allegedly made - I believe it was a written release and not a publicly spoken statement) an affirmative statement regarding changing his mind and deciding to pardon Hunter. He is not really a suitable test case on this issue (although eh would be fair game for whether pardons for unconvicted/uncharged/unknown crimes can be granted).
You need to use 2 < /.i > < ./ i > closers to close italics for some reason. Ignore the periods I threw in there to decieve the HTML renderer.
Tom T. said...
"I'm not quite sure how this would complicate the position of a prosecutor with regard to the 5th Amendment privileges of a pardoned person."
What I'm saying is that everyone who got a pardon is going to say that Trump says they were not in fact pardoned, so they are still going to insist on taking the fifth, because Trump might still try to prosecute them.
We know what you said. If they take the fifth then they are accepting they were not legally pardoned and can be charged with crimes.
I look forward to a bunch of congressman being charged with suborning false testimony. People are already on record admitting this.
Wasn't Trump forced to give depositions during his post-Presidency, or rather, intra-Presidency, as part of the Lawfare agenda? Why can Joe be deposed to go through his auto-pen record, see how much he can provide on background and context? That ought to be interesting, no>?
As anyone who has had the misfortune of trying to deal with wills and elderly relatives with dementia will tell you, everything is going to hinge on two issues COMPETENCY and INTENT.
For the former, I agree with everyone above who said that the 25th Amendment not being activated is the only test that the Court is going to use for GENERAL competency. There is a mechanism, the mechanism wasn't used, therefore the assumption is that Biden was competent.
Intent is going to be more interesting. A signature itself isn't a magic action; it is simply an indicator of intent. If the Trump folks have strong evidence that Biden did not know that the auto-pen was being used without Biden's knowledge, they will have a good argument for not accepting those signatures.
Proving that Biden did not intend to issue a given pardon is going to be challenging, but even if they lose, by taking the case up to the Supreme Court they'll have dragged a whole bunch of evidence into the sunlight that the Biden administration would rather have remained hidden, and that in itself is a win.
“Me, too. I'd really like to see this tested by starting a prosecution of one of those scoundrels. I'm thinking Fauci.”
I think the doj could correlate the time of signed pardons with the known location of Beiden and then Trump could waive Beiden’s executive privilege and even depose him to find any communication between himself and the person operating the auto pen when Beiden was away from DC. if there were no cell calls or messages it is prima facie evidence that the pardons were not approved by him.
The DOJ got Trumps cell phone and Beiden waived trumps executive privilege.
Didn't Biden say he'd never pardon Hunter? Why yes, yes he did. Repeatedly. I don't recall hearing him announce he DID pardon Hunter. I do recall toadies explaining the pardon, but not the POTUS himself. If my recollection is correct, would that not indicate he was unaware of the action taken in his name?
You’d think people here would have at least passing familiarity with the Supreme Court’s Trump immunity ruling, which said presidential pardons are not subject to review in any fashion by the court.
Autopen signed pardons... who pushed the go button is the question!
Charge someone, one of the J6 people would be a good place to start, when they claim to have been pardoned tell them to prove that the President of the United States actually signed the pardon and it was not the janitor who hit the go button....
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