March 16, 2025

"It’s not hard to imagine how the attempt to squelch legitimate debate may have started."

"Some of the loudest proponents of the lab leak theory weren’t just earnestly making inquiries, they were acting in terrible faith, using the debate over pandemic origins to attack legitimate, beneficial science, to inflame public opinion, to get attention. For scientists and public health officials, circling the wagons and vilifying anyone who dared to dissent might have seemed like a reasonable defense strategy. That’s also why it might be tempting for those officials, or the organizations they represent, to avoid looking too closely at mistakes they made, at the ways that, while trying to do such a hard job, they may have withheld relevant information and even misled the public.... We may not know exactly how the Covid pandemic started, but if research activities were involved, that would mean two out of the last four or five pandemics were caused by our own scientific mishaps...."

Writes Zeynep Tufekci, in "We Were Badly Misled About the Event That Changed Our Lives" (NYT).

112 comments:

chuck said...

Excuses, excuses. Just do better next time, OK?

Achilles said...

It is not enough that these people lied to us in order to seize power and turn us into a proto fascist state.

No, they have to pretend they are the good guys too and that we were the bad guys.

At least 90% of the people who preened and castigated those of us who were right on this are just like this turd.

Ed Driscoll is doing his yearly "Trump was the only Republican who did things wrong during COVID tour." Nothing is more pathetic than a Desantis supporter remembering how glorious and valiant they were during COVID.

Let us all remember how there were at most 3 of us on this board who stood up to this from the start.

wendybar said...

And we were called Conspiracy theorists for questioning them.

n.n said...

The lab leak theory was offered in good faith based on observations consistent with available evidence. The natural source theory was offered in bad faith motivated by a need to shift responsibility in light of special economic and political interests and DEI (e.g. racist) policy.

Hassayamper said...

I am in the health care field, and for the rest of my career, I will not trust government doctors. Some of the revelations have been utterly shocking.

I used to think of RFK Jr. as a kook. Now I think that while he may be wrong about some things, he’s not wrong about everything, and I support his efforts to reform HHS and lay bare all the incestuous arrangements between our “impartial” civil servants and the large pharmaceutical corporations they oversee.

Dave Begley said...

“ Some of the loudest proponents of the lab leak theory weren’t just earnestly making inquiries, they were acting in terrible faith, using the debate over pandemic origins to attack legitimate, beneficial science, to inflame public opinion, to get attention.”

That’s exactly why Fauci pushed the meat market accidentally leak theory. He didn’t want his precious funding of academic research cut. But more importantly, he didn’t want the American people to know that American taxpayers paid the Chinese to weaponize the virus with gain-of-function capabilities.

The Deep State is truly perverse and has gotten rich off of the taxpayers.

When will the NYT investigate Fauci and his net worth?

Peachy said...

It was more than a lab-leak. But no one wants to blame the puppet masters behind the scenes.

Peachy said...

The corrupt left - including Sludge(D) - are hoping for another pandemic while Trump is in office.
But please - don't call the left a pack of Nazis.

Spiros said...

Even early on, the circumstantial evidence in favor of a lab leak was overwhelming. I am impressed how the government convinced legacy media and the scientific establishment to push an obviously false theory with little to no dissent.

Peachy said...

The corrupt democrats actively censored any and all info that didn't fit the narrative. SOP - with everything - not just COVID.

Temujin said...

She's the one who started the 'everyone must wear a mask' thing. She's not a scientist (sociologist), but plays one for the NYT.
Anyway, it's good to know that no one involved with the lies and deception have to do any introspection, that their visible intent is all that matters, and that visible intent was all about the good. Or so they insist.

There is something psychologically wrong, something that must have a name for it, an active mental illness that has swept over those on the left. They simply cannot learn from their mistakes. More than that, they refuse to recognize their mistakes, even massive, murderous, global mistakes. Even those are, in the end, the fault of others who attempt to point out those mistakes.
This is psychotic level rationalization.

rehajm said...

Let us all remember how there were at most 3 of us on this board who stood up to this from the start.

…though I don’t know how ‘the start’ is defined this seems unfair. There was significant opposition right before lockdowns began from many in the commentariat, old and new..

Mary Beth said...

they were acting in terrible faith

She knows this, how?

Achilles said...

rehajm said...
Let us all remember how there were at most 3 of us on this board who stood up to this from the start.

…though I don’t know how ‘the start’ is defined this seems unfair. There was significant opposition right before lockdowns began from many in the commentariat, old and new..

How many people here called Desantis out when he unconstitutionally locked down Florida?

How many people here even admit that happened?

Aggie said...

'Badly Misled' - now, there's a polite way to describe a reaction when an official community lies out their *ss with the Bad News. Do you think Jay Bhattacharya felt he was being 'misled'? Did you feel 'misled' when jackasses were braying about people 'eating horse dewormer'? Or scolded you to step back to preserve that sacred 6 foot 'Safe Space'?

How about 'Lying"? Maybe we should use that word 'lying', and apply appropriate rewards to the people that did the 'lying', as they concocted draconian public policy that apparently left a population of deranged and damaged people in its wake? As opposed to the gentle 'tsk-tsking' that these dopes are trying to serve up on that long-handled spoon?

Tar and Feathers. I am told the memories all 'round are indelible.

Tom T. said...

This is what she has to tell herself to deal with having been so wrong.

Krumhorn said...

Bad faith? Arguing facts not in evidence. The vicious lefties cannot simply admit they screwed the pooch. They have to blame others for their mistakes in order to create a safe space for more good intentioned errors….because they are more virtuous and mean oh-so well.

- Krumhorn

FormerLawClerk said...

Anthony Fauci created COVID19. He engineered it specifically for it to be released in exactly the way that it was - to create drug profits on the vaccines, which were simultaneously developed and which nobody would take unless forced by their government to do it. The goal of this research is global depopulation, when it becomes necessary. It is ongoing research.

He did it at Wuhan, because our Congress, under duress from voters, barred him from doing this kind of research inside the United States. So he hid the science away in China.

They're still making Covid viruses there.. The Wuhan Institute of Virology still exists. They're still making Covid variants there. Nobody has even suggested that it be shut down or bombed.

Aggie said...

Next, they'll have us believe that they are fully reformed now, Yep! All Better ! and we would absolutely never do that kind of thing, ever, ever again.

Just listen to their next story about our HHS Secretary, Junior'. Every story I've heard so far - the last one was about the measles epidemic - led with his name, followed by 'vaccine skeptic'. The pejorative word association is without exception. Never mind, his actual words about vaccines that they should be tested for safety like any other drug. Not mentioned in thei NPR story: The measles cases are in communities with large numbers of illegal aliens , who coincidentally carry no vaccination card. That news tidbit is not even mentioned. Do you feel 'misled'?

Narr said...

"Nobody has even suggested that it [Wuhan Virus Kitchen] be shut down or bombed."

Then I'll be the first to suggest that it be shut down. Bombing sounds counterproductive.

Kate said...

I don't care who's blamed or not, just stop gain-of-function research. We haven't got to the point in the discussion where we all vehemently insist on that.

Dave Begley said...

Former Law Clerk:

You could be correct!

Bob Boyd said...

The NYT is lying.
They know they're lying.
We know they're lying.
They know we know they're lying.
They keep on lying.
Why?
They get paid to lie.

Jimmy said...

"It’s not hard to imagine how the attempt to squelch legitimate debate may have started."
Those of us who understood what was happening were sanctioned-on Twitter, in public, at work. People lost jobs, children unable to attend school.
All of it was on the whim of a small cabal of power hunger asshats who decided to stage what amounted to a coup-using the walking corpse that is Biden to sanction their totalitarian behavior.
Just another attempt to rationalize turning society upside down, destroying businesses, and killing people in the process.
This propaganda from NYT is just another attempt to justify what happened, and it doesn't work.
We know who was responsible, or the main players. They should be arrested and dealt with in the same manner we would do with vicious psychopaths.

rehajm said...

How many people here called Desantis out when he unconstitutionally locked down Florida?

Okay- apologies- that’s different then. If the start’ means specifically when Desantis locked down Florida I’d say most of us don’t live in Florida and had our own, bigger problems in our own states at the time. Good on you and two others then for making future political optics of GOP infighting the highest priority, I guess..

Randomizer said...

"Some of the loudest proponents of the lab leak theory weren’t just earnestly making inquiries"

Can the columnist back this up with some names? I don't know who she means, but the loudest voices in media generally are not doctors or scientists.

When governmental officials decide to put out a false narrative, and then keep lying to brass it out, it isn't persuasive to blame the tone of the debate.

Had Fauci been honest about the Wuhan lab, we would expect that lab to have some info on the nature of the virus and how to address it.

Mind your own business said...

Sounds like rationalization of some really poor, generally scientifically unsupported, pandemic decisions by the powers that were. Masks, social distancing, work from home, economic shutdown of small businesses, experimental "vaccines" ... none of which can be reasonably be supported as mandates from bureaucrats. The real goal was to spew trillions of newly printed dollars into the their part of the economy they control to delay the economic collapse they have engineered. It's still coming, just a little further down the road.

Bob Boyd said...

The NYT: Assuming everyone who questions the narrative is ignorant, stupid and racist seems reasonable. We were taught that in the best schools our whole lives and everyone we know agrees.

Randomizer said...

Reading more of the article, this bugs me.

"Why haven’t we learned our lesson? Maybe because it’s hard to admit this research is risky now, and to take the requisite steps to keep us safe, without also admitting it was always risky. And that perhaps we were misled on purpose."

Who is the "we" in those sentences? Many of us were clear on this years ago. There are officials who should be blamed, investigated, discredited or sanctioned.

Rocco said...

Narr said...
"Then I'll be the first to suggest that [the Wuhan Virus Kitchen] be shut down. Bombing sounds counterproductive."

Yes. Bombing could release who knows what uglies into the environment.

Bob Boyd said...

Remember the people who denied the scandal of priests molesting kids to the bitter end?
Same thing.

Ralph L said...

More than that, they refuse to recognize their mistakes, even massive, murderous, global mistakes.

Someone on youtube pointed out the parents of trans kids will never, ever be able to admit they mutilated and sterilized their own children. Much like the abortion zealots. Making someone else's grandma die alone is a small potato.

Mason G said...

"We Were Badly Misled About the Event That Changed Our Lives"

"We", is it? Maybe you were, but that's not everybody. Being misled is a definite possibility when you trust the wrong people and have an emotional investment in believing them.

Luke Lea said...

Judging by the top rated comment, NYT readers are hopeless.

minnesota farm guy said...

I signed the Great Barrington Declaration as soon as it was published. I tried to convince friends and family that the shut down was nuts to no avail. Was Covid mania any different from Tulip Mania? Doubtful. I would like to see Fauci and Brix, at the very least pilloried, at the best have their pensions taken away.

Jupiter said...

"Writes Zeynep Tufekci". In the NYT, no less. Is he, by any chance, a lying liar who always lies? Why yes! Yes he is!

minnesota farm guy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Spiros said...

Wikipedia says "[t]he scientific opinion that an accidental leak is possible, but unlikely, has remained steady."

You're never going to convince these people. They continue to argue that origin was the Wuhan wet markets. Apparently Chinese people were eating live bats and other animals. Really! They'd catch a live bat and then dip it in some sauce and, while it was still squirming and screaming, bite its head off and munch away. Yes, this sounds racist and stupid but it is what most libs believe. And if you don't believe this stupidity, you are a racist.

minnesota farm guy said...

"Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds." Add a chapter on Covid.

Achilles said...

Rocco said...
Narr said...
"Then I'll be the first to suggest that [the Wuhan Virus Kitchen] be shut down. Bombing sounds counterproductive."

Yes. Bombing could release who knows what uglies into the environment.

Meh.

Just do it on a sunny day. UV lighting and open air will blunt the spread of "pandemics" quite well.

This is clear and known by the people that wanted to force us to stay inside. None of this was an honest mistake. The people running our government took obvious and concrete steps to kill as many people as possible with this virus. The people who did this want to reduce the human population below 1 billion.

They have been working around the edges on multiple fronts from "climate change" to banning gas stoves and heaters and restricting air conditioning to things like promoting a diet of low fat and carbs and vegetables.

Lazarus said...

Subtext: We are the science. Don't question us or mess with us.

It was rotten all the way down.

Two-eyed Jack said...

"We Were Badly Misled About the Event That Changed Our Lives"

I was lied to. I wasn't misled.

I still see people wearing masks at public events around here. Perhaps the pronoun "we" refers to them.

Dr Weevil said...

Zeynep Tufekci is "she", not "he".

FullMoon said...

"Bob Boyd said...
Remember the people who denied the scandal of priests molesting kids to the bitter end?
Same thing."

Yep, same people who avoided admitting the molesters were homosexuals.

JaimeRoberto said...

We can't shut down gain of function research. Think of all the great medical advances it has given us, like, uh, uh. I'm drawing a blank here.

Yancey Ward said...

Zeynep Tufekci is still writing a bunch of self-serving lies today. She was literally part of the coverup and cheered on the purges from social media the people who correctly assessed the data about this virus' origin right from the start.

This isn't really about a 90% chance this virus was leaked from the lab- that percentage is 99.999%+. It has been that high since February 2020. If Zeynep Tufekci didn't know this then, then she is a moron as well as a liar.

RCOCEAN II said...

Is the NYT's admitting they were wrong? Its hard to tell from the convoluted passive language. And when did it become "normal" to shut down debate and institute censorship in response to a factual disagreement?

And could the NYT's have a DEI program for American reporters with normal names? When the last time someone called Miller, Gonzales, Jones, Smith or O'Brian wrote for them?

WhoKnew said...

Since it's the NYT, shouldn't that headline read "we badly mislead you"

Jaq said...

"they were acting in terrible faith, using the debate over pandemic origins to attack legitimate, beneficial science, to inflame public opinion, to get attention. "

Everybody who disagrees with me has evil intentions! I know, because I can read minds!

Pointing out that a once a century species jump of a coronavirus just happened to happen a few miles from a lab experimenting with that that same virus and a CRISPR machine is bad faith use of logic!

What it boils down to is that the deplorable people that the government is here to protect us against need to be kept in their place, whatever the cost.

Jaq said...

This is why the First Amendment needs to go, because people might point out mistakes that the government is making, and those people are bad people.

Anthony said...

I primarily pushed back on masking here; that was kind of My Thing. Everything they were doing was obviously balderdash, but I railed about that stuff elsewhere.

And I signed the Barrington as soon as I could.

Quaestor said...

While pointing out that we were badly misled, Zeynep Tufekci is trying to badly mislead us yet again in order to absolve Anthony Fauci, the so-called mainstream media, and in particular, the National Science Foundation, currently an object of deep scrutiny thanks to hundreds of billion dollars spent on research that may not be entirely legitimate. (Sociology as a field of study receives a big chunk of the national treasure via the NSF's heretofore inscrutable grant process, Dr. Tufekci herself a likely beneficiary of that largess.)

The STEM establish is nervous. It doesn't want to be scrutinized. As part of a well-coordinated effort to deflect and dismantle President's Trump's curiosity regarding those hundreds of billions, Tufekci admits that the lab leak theory has merit, but in order to denigrate that merit, she she has concocted another lie. The "wet market" origin theory was not a defensive response to "bad faith" criticism of science; it was the default explanation offered by the news media, especially the New York Times, right out of the starting gate. First it was bat soup, then the culprit was pangolin pâté. The overwhelming probably that the Wuhan Institute of Virology created COVID-19 and then released it, accidently or otherwise, was well known among the members of the STEM establishment long before the general public even knew that virology lab even existed or that it was largely funded by their money. As soon as the news of Wuhan residents collapsing and dying by the thousands reached our shores, our betters in academia and media launched a coordinated effort camouflage and obfuscate the connection between COVID-19 and the American taxpayer.

ron winkleheimer said...

"For scientists and public health officials, circling the wagons and vilifying anyone who dared to dissent might have seemed like a reasonable defense strategy."

This is bullshit. Perfectly reputable, distinguished scientists, were pointing out that the virus had all the earmarks indicating that it had been created in a lab. TPTB coerced them into walking that back because they were trying to cover-up their own culpability. The media cooperated because Orange Man Bad.

boatbuilder said...

Does this clown mention the Great Barrington Declaration? Does he think that the highly credentialed and very courageous doctors and scientists who promulgated and signed it, at grave risk to their careers, were acting in "bad faith?"
If so, he should name some names. Jay Bhattacharya for one.
And if he believes that telling the public lies and slandering honest speakers is justified because some people were being mean, he has forfeited the right to expect anyone to respect his opinions.

Shouting Thomas said...

My Alex Jones level prediction: Eventually we’ll discover the release of COVID was deliberate.

Bob Boyd said...

@full moon

I didn’t say it was the same people. It’s not. I said it was the same thing, meaning blind faith in government and credentialism is the religion of the left. They aren’t rational. The facts don’t matter. They’ll side with and support the clerisy.

boatbuilder said...

OK, she's a woman.
Does she know who Nicholas Wade* is? Does she care?

*Nobel Prize winner; former science editor for the NYT. Early "Lab Leak Theory" proponent. No longer writing for the NYT. Still right.

Quaestor said...

Does this clown mention the Great Barrington Declaration? Does he think that the highly credentialed and very courageous doctors and scientists who promulgated and signed it, at grave risk to their careers, were acting in "bad faith?"

The clown in question is a woman. Zeynep Tufekci is a Turkish-American sociologist, and the Henry G. Bryant Professor of Sociology and Public Affairs at Princeton University.

Sidenote: If one's aim is to promulgate effective propaganda, then a professor of sociology and public affairs is the choice consultant to employ.

donald said...

The entire country was shut down Achilles. WTF with DeSantis? He’s a superior governor and has a future role in government if he wants it, he just won’t be president. I don’t know if that doesn’t make me one of the three, but the instant I heard virus, I was smart enough from fourth grade science to know what that meant. I was gobsmacked to hear doctors try to say this was a different type of virus, that violated every concept of a virus. I never bought it, I never gave anything and literally walked away from a $15,000.00 payday in Camarillo that year.

Quaestor said...

Dr. Tufekci is not a clown, nor is she a fool. She is protecting her interests by rhetorical means.

Original Mike said...

'It's the dissenters own fault that we destroyed anyone who pointed out the obvious.,

It's hard to imagine a more disingenuous article.

Anonymous said...

“My Alex Jones level prediction: Eventually we’ll discover the release of COVID was deliberate.”

I would never say never, but I don’t believe that. China was taken by surprise and it cooked there in isolation for several months. I suspect it was accidental due to sloppy procedures, communism does not lead to excellence.

But once it got going two things were done by the Chinese, they went complete authoritarian, welding people in their buildings and such, that may have been guilt, fear, or the desire to appear superior. Second, they did not restrict travel, and I suspect that they were going to make sure that the rest of the world got to share in their mistake.


It would not surprise me that the Chinese would have wanted the rest of the world to be debilitated as much as they knew they would be.

Martha said...

No. Proponents of the lab leak theory were not acting in terrible faith! They were acting logically and reasonably after assessing all the available facts—just as the authors of the Great BARRINGTON Declaration were.
Zeynep Tufekci is still gaslighting the American public.
It is frightening how easily the so-called elite are so easily misled.

Original Mike said...

To this day I don't understand why the left turned the question of covid's origin into a political matter. All I got is they turn everything into a political matter.

ron winkleheimer said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsBuSCwn7h4

Original Mike said...

"I suspect it was accidental due to sloppy procedures, communism does not lead to excellence."

Even without sloppiness, mistakes will eventually be made. Gain-of-function needs to be banned and penalties need to be draconian; lifetime imprisonment. We got lucky. Next time the mortality rate of their Frankenstein may be 50%

loudogblog said...

"using the debate over pandemic origins to attack legitimate, beneficial science"

Yes, God forbid that we actually allow any debate on a scientific issue. We already have the "beneficial science" that the government and the media handed down to us and that should be enough.

BTW, does the author know that most intelligence organizations are now saying that Covid was the result of a lab leak?

Quaestor said...

The "wet market" origin myth was a likely deception detectable by anyone with some knowledge of epidemiology and modern Chinese culture. That a zoonotic viral disease should suddenly surface in an ultra-modern city of over 13 million residents is bizarre notion. The history of such epidemics indicates that such cross-species infections begin in the Chinese countryside or in small towns and villages where there is little in the way of commercial-scale refrigeration. In those places it is customary and practical to buy live animals and do ones own butchery. In such circumstances, close contact with animals harboring potentially infectious organisms is virtually unavoidable. Once the species boundary has been jumped, the infection spreads by travel from the countryside to the major urban centers, not the reverse -- unless the source is a virology laboratory doing gain-of-function research.

Original Mike said...

"Writes Zeynep Tufekci, in "We Were Badly Misled About the Event That Changed Our Lives" (NYT)."

Oh, we were badly misled, alright.

ron winkleheimer said...

Jon Stewart admitted that it came from the Wuhan Lab three years ago for God's sake. They're a little late.
Skip to 2:51

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSfejgwbDQ8

Original Mike said...

I'm glad the article is behind a paywall; it would send my blood pressure through the roof.

ron winkleheimer said...

By the way, has Stephen Colbert ever apologized for being such a putz?

Original Mike said...

"Yes. Bombing could release who knows what uglies into the environment."

A nuclear bomb wouldn't.

ron winkleheimer said...

There is so much wrong with that article, but I'm just going to point out that lying to and misleading the public because Orange Man Bad and his supporters aren't our sort isn't the convincing argument they think it is.

Greg The Class Traitor said...

"Some of the loudest proponents of the lab leak theory weren’t just earnestly making inquiries, they were acting in terrible faith, using the debate over pandemic origins to attack legitimate, beneficial science, to inflame public opinion, to get attention.

No, they weren't. Because funding "gain of function" research is at best highly questionable, and deserved to be questioned.

Funding it in China, in violation of US regs against such funding, was criminally insane

For scientists and public health officials, circling the wagons and vilifying anyone who dared to dissent might have seemed like a reasonable defense strategy.

No actual scientist, as opposed to a whore in a lab coat, believes that "circling the wagons and vilifying anyone who dared to dissent" is EVER a valid strategy for a scientific question

Quaestor said...
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Quaestor said...
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Quaestor said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Quaestor said...

"Gain-of-function needs to be banned and penalties need to be draconian."

I disagree. Gain-of-function research is a valuable tool in our efforts to anticipate and counteract viral disease outbreaks. Without such research, we will be completely dependent on research into diseases that have already affected large populations, perhaps billions. Gain-of-function research is the foundation of modern countermeasures against influenza. Almost every year we have a new flu shot that is effective against a form of that illness that has not yet reached epidemic proportions. Without gain-of-function research, our influenza vaccines would be many years behind the evolution of the virus.

Gain-of-function research needs to be strictly controlled and performed only in laboratories located far from population centers. I favor such research be confined to extremely remote locations, perhaps a single location that could be sterilized in the case of a emergency. For example, the interior of Greenland might be a good candidate for such a lab, some place located not less than 100 miles from open water with terrain suitable for operation of transport aircraft and a strong military presence for security. If things get bad, we nuke it. Only the most dedicated and ethical researchers would work under such conditions, but that's exactly what we should want.

(Damn! All typos eliminated now, I hope.)

Gerda Sprinchorn said...

"Some of the loudest proponents of the lab leak theory weren’t just earnestly making inquiries, they were acting in terrible faith"

This is logically equivalent (roughly) to "Most of the loudest proponents of the lab leak theory were just earnestly making inquiries and acting in good faith."

john mosby said...

Original Mike: "To this day I don't understand why the left turned the question of covid's origin into a political matter."

I speculate several possible reasons:

1. They believed their own hype about Trump as a hair-trigger warmonger. They feared that if everyone accepted the virus came from a Chinese lab, Trump would start (or more accurately finish) a world war.

2. They knew the ChiComs were working with Fauci, so if it became conventional wisdom that the virus came from a ChiCom lab, the ChiComs would say "yeah, but we were working on Fauci's project!" As it was, the CCP tried to do some weird propaganda stuff about how the virus came to China from US military athletes visiting for some sports event. That petered out because both sides effectively agreed to a rhetorical cease-fire.

3. Trump was probably read in to the real origins quite early and agreed that revealing them would do more harm than good. Note that he has not been breaking open the secret Covid archives in this term. With Trump not weighing in on the origins, it was easier to suppress other lab-leak theorists.

4. While the left could have blamed the CCP-Fauci lab leak on Trump, since the last three years of the work took place during his administration, they couldn't be sure enough voters would buy it.

5. Once the lab leak and Fauci link got out into conventional wisdom, the left would have to downplay the virus's lethality. Which would have meant reducing all the lockdown restrictions. Which would have messed up the ballot-stuffing plan.

JSM

Quaestor said...

OT, This morning I was toying around arithmetically with our $32 trillions of national debt. The old visualizations like five times around the Earth at the equator, or from here to the Moon are comically inadequate. The debt in $1 dollar bills if laid end to end would stretch 37. 5 AUs -- more than half way to Planet Neptune.

J Severs said...

"SOME of the loudest proponents of the lab leak theory . . . were acting in terrible faith . . . For scientists and public health officials . . . vilifying ANYONE who dared to dissent might have seemed like a reasonable defense strategy.” (caps are mine). Restating, some people were acting badly, so it was OK to shut up every dissenter.

Quaestor said...

"Anthony Fauci created COVID19. He engineered it specifically for it to be released in exactly the way that it was - to create drug profits on the vaccines, which were simultaneously developed and which nobody would take unless forced by their government to do it."

That's absurd, FormerLawClerk. If that's a sample of your acumen, then it's obvious why you're no longer clerking.

Anthony Fauci is corrupt, an egomaniac, and a liar One can defend that claim using only public records regarding his actions and his writings. However, given Fauci's scholastic background, he could not "engineer" an epidemic even if it was the goal of his lifetime.

Please get real. In future, confine your contributions to the plausible if you can't manage the evident truth, otherwise you discredit everyone who participates in these discussions.

mikee said...

When I first heard about the Wuhan biological warfare, err, science research lab, my first thought was "they leaked through incompetence" because I have worked with several mainland Chinese graduate students in US labs over the years. We didn't call them "Yellow Perils" because of racism, but because of experience with their behaviors in our labs.

Jim at said...

Never forget - and never forgive - what these thugs did to us. Ever.

Jim at said...

How many people here called Desantis out when he unconstitutionally locked down Florida?

Since you seem to have some sort of hard-on for Desantis, let me ask you this question: Would you have rather lived in Florida for the two years of Covid? Or Washington state?

Me? I was fucking stuck here. I would've much rather been there.

GingerBeer said...

More like "We were gladly misled."

holdfast said...

Quaestor - sorry, our government (and other governments) just don't work that perfectly. They f*ck up, and this is way too dangerous to f*ck with. So no, live gain-of--function research is too dangerous for ANYONE to undertake. Anyone found to be doing it, ordering it, or authorizing it should be subject to summary execution.

Maybe we can find a way to computer model it. Or do it in isolated labs on the moon, with only remote-controlled robots. Until then, nope. Not worth it.

Narr said...

Nukes it is, then, and then fresh air and sunlight.

narciso said...

Fauci funded Ecohealth, which made the dangerous choice of gain of function research, which shouldn't have been done under any circumstance, but specially a no 2 level lab, that was right next to the train station in Central Wuhan,

Joe Bar said...

Is anyone with a brain ever going to believe these @ssholes again?

narciso said...

the only one that got it perfectly right, was our current homeland secretary, for that profile in courage she was dubbed a granny killer, the sturgess rally was dubbed a super spreader event,

as I noted somewhere else, it doesn't matter the issue, Zeynep is always wrong take it to the bank,

narciso said...

and we saw with queens new york, the epicenter of the epidemic when effective therapeutics were denied, those who were shoved into the ventilators was a virtual death trap,

effinayright said...

" I support [RFK Jr] efforts to reform HHS and lay bare all the incestuous arrangements between our “impartial” civil servants and the large pharmaceutical corporations they oversee."
************

The first thing that needs to go is the outrageous practice Big Pharma engages in, listing NIH and CDC employees as co-inventors on their patents---THEREBY entitling them to royalties derived from licensing and sale of the products/processes covered by those patents.

It obviously a conflict of interest and a HUGE SCAM, and I hope to see the DOJ and congress see to it that the practice is stopped.
I'd also like to see the documents filed to secure those patents, to learn if government regulators fraudulently had their names added, and what EXACTLY their alleged contributions were.

effinayright said...

Achilles said:

"How many people here called Desantis out when he unconstitutionally locked down Florida?

How many people here even admit that happened?"
************************

AI Perplexity said:

"While Florida did have some initial restrictions in spring 2020 (including a statewide stay-at-home order from April 3 to May 4, 2020), DeSantis moved to reopen the state relatively quickly:

By May 2020, Florida began its phased reopening
By September 2020, DeSantis removed most remaining state-level restrictions
He prohibited local governments from enforcing mask mandates
Schools were required to offer in-person instruction starting in August 2020
Businesses were allowed to operate at full capacity sooner than in many other states

"Florida's approach stood in contrast to states like California and New York, which maintained stricter and longer-lasting restrictions. DeSantis frequently criticized lockdown policies and positioned Florida as an example of balancing public health concerns with economic and social considerations"
*********

But naaaaahhhhh...not a dime's worth of difference from what NY and CA---and the Feds--- did. SNORT

Kakistocracy said...

"The C.I.A. recently updated its assessment of how the Covid pandemic began, judging a lab leak to be the likely origin, albeit with low confidence. The Department of Energy, which runs sophisticated labs, and the F.B.I. came to that conclusion in 2023. But there are certainly more questions for governments and researchers across the world to answer." ~ NYT

For the lab leak theory to hold water we would need to know that WIV had propagated this virus, and that evidence would come in the form of viral sequence data. If the CIA had such data it would be high confidence. That they call it low confidence, means they do not have this data

Can you say with “low confidence” that something is “probably” true?

narciso said...

everyone the german, british french security services knew this was a lab leak,

Greg The Class Traitor said...

Quaestor said...
"Gain-of-function needs to be banned and penalties need to be draconian."

I disagree. Gain-of-function research is a valuable tool in our efforts to anticipate and counteract viral disease outbreaks.


Statement requires evidence. Which GoF research has been beneficial? Where are the papers produced?

But it's simpler than that: Whether or not GoF research COULD be beneficial:
1: US Gov't adopted rules saying we wouldn't fund it
2: Funding it in CCP China was insanely stupid, because they can not possibly be trusted to do it right, or to honestly report on problems.

So even if you can make the case for GoF research (and I'll read the case if you make it) it remains the case that teh funding that probably led to Covid had NO justification, and the people who did it deserved to be crucified.

Gospace said...

""Some of the loudest proponents of the lab leak theory weren’t just earnestly making inquiries, they were acting in terrible faith, using the debate over pandemic origins to attack legitimate, beneficial science, to inflame public opinion, to get attention. ..."

No names named. Gee, I wonder why.

Actually, I don't. I know why. And so does everyone here. The libel judgement against both her and the NY Times would bankrupt them both.

Everything else I would say has already been said above by others. But I will reiterate one- there were a lot more then 3 of us.

Martha said...

Gospace nails It—NO proponents of the lab leak theory were acting in terrible faith. They were the ones following the science. And they were vilified.

Scott Patton said...

We've been mizeled!

Achilles said...

effinayright said...
Achilles said:

"How many people here called Desantis out when he unconstitutionally locked down Florida?

How many people here even admit that happened?"
************************

AI Perplexity said:

"While Florida did have some initial restrictions in spring 2020 (including a statewide stay-at-home order from April 3 to May 4, 2020), DeSantis moved to reopen the state relatively quickly:


Exactly.

Desantis was only a tin pot dictator for a month.

He is very courageous. A true hero.

Hassayamper said...

Remember the people who denied the scandal of priests molesting kids to the bitter end?

Just as an aside, the average schoolteacher is three or four times more likely to commit sexual misconduct with minors under his or her charge than the average Catholic priest.

The 2004 John Jay report suggested priests commit this kind of abuse at an annual rate of 0.08%, while a 2019-2020 audit by the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, following some thorough reforms in the way priests are supervised and referred for prosecution, put the figure at around 0.06%.

Dept. of Education and Dept. of Justice data, by contrast, suggest that schoolteachers abuse minors at an annualized rate of 0.17% to 0.23%. This is based on the 2004 Charol Shakeshaft report for the DoEd and the B. J. Grant report from the NIJ in 2017.

These things are hard to measure and compare, but the view from 30,000 feet suggests that parents of schoolchildren have much more cause to fear that they will be abused by their classroom teacher than by their parish priest.

The scum and filth of the journalistic profession never miss an opportunity to take a shit on Christians and their leaders, but of course, never ever ever EVER compare them to their Gramscian fellow-travelers in the teachers' union.

Original Mike said...

"Gain-of-function research is the foundation of modern countermeasures against influenza. Almost every year we have a new flu shot that is effective against a form of that illness that has not yet reached epidemic proportions. Without gain-of-function research, our influenza vaccines would be many years behind the evolution of the virus."

I don't think that's true. I'd be happy to be educated.

As an aside, our flu vaccine efficacy sucks. Lately it's been roughly 25%. But I also don't think GOF research has anything to do with our flu vaccines. Again, I'd be happy to be shown to be wrong.

Jaq said...

Kaki is defending the Wuhan lab and Dr Fauci's reputation to the bitter end. Unbelievable. We know that the ChiComs prevailed on the WHO to destroy the sequence data..

Nah! "Respect muh authoritay!" says Kaki

Kirk Parker said...

Mary Beth,

>> they were acting in terrible faith

> She knows this, how?

Introspection, followed by projection.

Kirk Parker said...

Quaestor,

You are completely off-base regarding gain of function and flu vaccines. Like Original Mike, I am unclear about the contribution of the former to the latter; it's your apparent belief that flu vaccines are this great thing rather than mostly a complete waste.

I recommend you spend some time reading that Trust The Evidence guys: https://trusttheevidence.substack.com

Howard (not that Howard) said...

Kakistocracy has achieved untold new levels of idiocy:
For the lab leak theory to hold water we would need to know that WIV had propagated this virus, and that evidence would come in the form of viral sequence data. If the CIA had such data it would be high confidence. That they call it low confidence, means they do not have this data

"To hold water" doing so much work here it might just be an illegal immigrant. No, "to hold water" would simply mean it's at least as plausible as an entirely unproven species jump.

There has been plenty of evidence of studies regarding insertion of the spike protein at the WIV.

The fact that neither the CIA, nor anyone else outside of the CCP, has this evidence is evidence all on it's own.

Jesus, man. Have a little self-respect.

Yancey Ward said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Scott M said...

I dunno about the "bad faith" argument here. If Covid's bad faith uses were stacked in a pile, how much would that pile be dwarfed by the Mount Everest of bad faith climate change opportunists?

Yancey Ward said...

Bich is a cretin. Start here if you want to understand the evidence that supports the lab leak hypothesis. This essay is almost 4 years old (published May 2021) but is still the best compilation of the data that was available in February 2020.

Since Wade's essay published in 2021, the evidence for the lab leak has only gotten stronger- the main piece of new evidence being the discovery via FOIA of the DEFUSE proposal to DARPA from 2018 to create more human infectious beta-coronoviruses via lab assembly with restriction enzymes, the fingerprints of such an assembly being easily found in the genomic sequence of the original
virus from January 2020- fingerprints that are extremely unlikely to have arisen naturally.

In total, the evidence for the lab leak is simply overwhelming. It really is beyond a reasonable doubt and this has been the case since February 2020. The CIA report is simply trying to offer a figleaf to those morons, like Bich above, who bought the natural origins story put out by Fauci and Dazsak etal. by pretending that there is any doubt at all for the entire last 5 years. Even lying morons like Zeynep Tufekci know the jig is up and are now trying to pretend that they were misled by persons unnamed (did you notice that in the essay Althouse posted on). Whatever ever else Zeynep Tufekci might be, we know she is a smarter class of moron than Bich is.

Edit, with the correct link.https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

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