Says Michael Barbaro, on today's episode of the "Daily" podcast, "What Phil Donahue Meant to Me" (link goes to the Podscribe transcript, which includes the audio).
Barbaro is 44, and he tells us he listened to "The Phil Donahue Show" when he was a kid and was very influenced by it. The episode with Ayn Rand was on in 1979, so he wasn't watching that episode (unless it was a rerun).
How rude was Ayn Rand to the woman in the audience? Rand was "rude" in that she announced that the audience member was "rude" and refused to answer a question from her because she was rude. Is it rude to call somebody else rude? The standard tactic is to maintain your demeanor and show strength by answering the question on its substance, but clearly that was not Rand's approach. Donahue and Barbaro trash her for for not being more kindly toward the female human who was a mere audience member. I'm just guessing that Ayn Rand chose to treat her exactly as she deserved based on what she said. Here's the entire 1979 show. The "rudeness" incident begins at 27:47:
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72 comments:
Barbaro. False in one, false in all. Just another lying lib. Just like Kamala claiming she worked at McDonald's.
That's the thing about today's libs. They lie casually about the simplest things and are so arrogant that they don't think they will be caught. Walz lied about his military service. He's lying about everything.
The ITT Corp. will take over the world. The woman who is now more educated said that. Uhm, who are they?
That comment was premature, as the telephone and telegraph have been superseded in their communication function by the social media giants who now seem to control the world. So whoever said it wasn't very far from right,
Everyone on every side of the argument was laughing and smiling. Donahue, Rand and the woman who asked the question. Did anger and offense only descend upon us after 1979?
The power ITT had through its horizontal integration as a multinational conglomerate was through its governmental influence.
How rude was Ayn Rand??
so Rude, as to RUDELY be on.. Before Barbaro was even born! HOW RUDE!!
Donahue was the first seed pod, oprah was the second one,
I've read a lot by Ayn Rand, and books about Ayn Rand. She was brilliant, creating an entire philosophy in depth, and with great precision. And she further illustrated it with her novels. Some of which, unfortunately, seem to be playing out in real time. (Who knew they would be used as 'How-To' Manuals?). That said, one thing that always went with her brilliance was her awful character as a person. She was not nice. She manipulated those closest to her- not uncommon among the charismatic. And her standards for personal conduct did not seem to be nearly as high as her standards for society at large.
So this outburst does not surprise me. I do need to go back and watch the entire thing, but jumping to the interaction we're talking about, I'm not shocked. I've read first hand accounts of far worse behavior from her.
That said, I still keep The Ayn Rand Lexicon on my desk for regular reference.
Donahue tells Rand, "Don't be so sensitive!"
I'd like to see a male TV personality say that to a woman in 2024.
Ayn Rand was rude and hypocritical, her books are overwrought and three times longer than they need to be, and her characters are cartoonish puppets for expounding her philosophy.
And yet, she is one of the three or four most important and valuable authors of the 20th Century. If the only thing she had ever written were the "Money Speech" of Francisco d'Ancona, she would still be among the immortals in the field of political economy.
Temujin nails it at 10:35.
Ayn Rand was a brilliant thinker and writer and a very flawed human being. The biography written by Nathaniel Brandon's ex-wife (Barbara?) is a bittersweet reminder of her flaws as well as her influence on people who were willing and able to think for themselves.
The lady in the audience was rude- you don't preface your question the way she did if your goal wasn't to insult Rand- insulting Rand was the entire point of "I thought well of your books until I became educated." What Rand should have said was, "You obviously didn't become educated enough."
One of my history profs used to tell the story of how, when he was an earnest undergrad in the 50s, he wrote to La Rand to ask clarification of some points of her philosophy.
She replied that his very questions proved the failure of the American education system.
"Fifteen years ago I was impressed with your books and sort of felt your philosophy was proper. Today, however, I am more educated..."
This is kind of a tell that whatever question or statement that comes after won't be in good faith. The preface of the question implies only people who are uneducated could agree with Ayn Rand's position. The question was rude, but minorly so. Ayn Rand's response wasn't out of bounds. For the writer of the article to see that interaction and conclude that Ayn Rand was motivated by hatred of people is an absurd interpretation.
It is hilarious, though, how Rand still lives inside he heads of the Left 42 years after her death. I am guessing Barbaro never once watched the Phil Donahue show which went off the air when Barbaro was 15. It sounds like he wanted to say something nasty about Rand and did a Google search to come up with that video clip of Rand on Donahue.
she was old school, having lived through the Russian Revolution, I thought the Fountain head was too much of a Mash note to Frank Lloyd Wright,
Hands down my favorite Donahue interview I've ever seen was the one with economist Milton Friedman. He totally blew him - and socialist controlled/elitist economics - out of the water with his comparison of political greed and economic greed.
“Where are these angels you intend to find to run our perfect society for us?”
I watched Donahue as a kid. I saw an episode where some expert talked about how there were many unhappy non-virgins. Being nothing but a walking hormone at the time I was SHOCKED "you mean there are teens having sex and they are UNHAPPY about it?" I thought about that episode for days and from it resolved to make my first time be meaningful. (This was aided by the fact that I did not have young women flinging themselves at me). Anyway that episode probably changed my life for the better.
I heard the lady say "now I'm more educated" and thought the same thing before Rand cut here off. Not so much that it was rude, but I suspect she was recently "credentialed" and that makes her assume she is smarter. It suggests only the uneducated think your philosophy is correct.
It's like any modern day college graduate that thinks their degree makes them and expert, or more intelligent. Or, a PHD with a degree in the studies of the Holy Shit Billy that wants to be called "Doctor."
Also I think the audience member was lying. She was NEVER impressed with Ayn Rand's books. I doubt she read them.
Same thing with Republican's for Harris crowd on X who are just simply RINOs.
rude (roo' duh) adj. - to disagree with a leftist
Why should you be courteous to someone who insults you in the preface to their question? In today's Woke World, you fight back using their rules.
Today she’d be labeled a racist homophobe on principle, no evidence need be cited.
intelligence (ɪnˈtɛl.ɪ.d͡ʒəns) noun - having a document proclaiming one's unassailable superiority granted by another person with the identical document see self-deception
Having a cult or a movement means you can get away with things that you can't get away with in the wider world. Leaders can demand things from followers for the good of the movement -- things that they would disapprove of outsiders forcing on people.
The Randians at my brother's college put out a newspaper. High school me was very impressed by it because it was so opposed to what the rest of the media was saying at the time (and saying now). Years later, I'm not so impressed. Her philosophy is more for young people who are dying to get out into the world and make something of themselves on their own. Good for them, but Rand's philosophy doesn't meet the needs and desires of those older or younger than that. It doesn't fit with their experiences or answer their questions.
Looking forward to Karine Jean-Pierre's how-to book on public relations and the chapter that explains how accusing people of being rude is a power tactic. Reporters are all shouting to be heard, and KJP shuts one up by accusing him of being rude. They're all rude and paid to be rude. Singling one out not only shuts him up, but it helps establish your dominance over the rest, when you wouldn't otherwise have any grounds to claim dominance.
Go watch Ayn's interview with Mike Wallace. As liberal as he was, he was quite respectful of Rand.
I've got a Masters degree from Eastern IL University - 1993. Partied balls thru undergrad and grad school. I'll sell if for $50.
Only sheep thing credentialism = expertise. Just because you earned a liberal arts degree in the current grade-flation environment doesn't mean you are intelligent. STEM degrees might be different.
In Rand's books the Villains are empty headed, credentialed, arrogant, connected elites. Or, those that just want to be in the club. James Taggert in "Atlas Shrugged" and Ellsworth Toohey in the Fountainhead. We see their character in David Brooks, David French, Paul Begala, and all the women on The VIEW and in the liberal media. The three University Presidents that wouldn't condemn anti-Semitism are Rand villains.
It's why Rand is despised by liberals. Just like Trump, and now Elon Musk.
I'll take Howard Rourke and John Galt.
Einstein had a picture of Schopenhauer on his wall. Schrodinger thought Schopenhauer had a profound influence on the way he thought. I myself have never been able to get through one of Schopenhauer's books, but I like his attitude. As I understand it, his philosophy expounds on the belief that the world sucks, and there's nothing much you can do about it. I guess watching Donahue or reading Ayn Rand gives some symptomatic relief, however.
I’ll give Barbaro credit for not claiming he watched the Rand episode when it first aired. I’m a decade older than and did watch it but I was a kid. It didn’t have much impact at the time but I also watched the Milton Friedman episode- that one struck. Why is the audience so dumb?…
Phil was a leftie but always fair to the guest and the audience, even the old guy that stood up and asked the lesbian ‘Is it the cunnilingus?’ That one struck, too…
Unlike Phil today’s shitty left has to pleasepleaseplease find the thing to say to cancel Rand. She was rude in’t gonna do it, though…
put Barbaro on the list and ignore him in the future. "Once a liar always..."
As rude comments go, neither the thrust nor the parry were delivered with much malice. The disagreement seemed reasonably polite, but I didn't listen to the whole thing....... I don't think the woman's comment about ITT have aged all that well, but there's always some big, successful corporation that leftists take particular offense at. I think Boeing used to be part of the military/industrial complex, but we now realize that Musk is the true super villain of our era. Wouldn't the world be so much nicer if Musk, like Salk, donated all his patents to charity?
The woman was fighting FOR government force. She WAS rude. Her education sucked if she believes we need government force. I bet she got a job in government after this show. She is a socialist and would do better running for President for Progressives than Kamala.
The great Ayn Rand, incapable of handling a perfectly ordinary question from a housewife. Shorter version: “Your tone hurts my feelings.”
She replied that his very questions proved the failure of the American education system. I'd love to see the questions LOL
Alas, I think his papers have been scattered or destroyed.
Rand was answering a question. Donahue interrupts her, cuts her off, in order to talk to the audience member. Woman starts with a disavowal, and then hijacks the entire conversation. She's so scattered that Donahue has to jump in to clarify her point. Rand tells them to piss off.
Verdict: Rand not rude.
It was an insult. "...now that I'm more educated..." I don't blame Ayn for her 'fuck off' attitude. Nice moment: Phil giving an example of something completely outrageous like 'gas at 2.50 a gallon'.
I can only assume both women were flustered.
Amen!
Amen!
I started the video at the 26 minute mark. It really is good. First, at the 26 minute mark, Donahue is pushing Rand (who I never knew did an interview like this) on what would be considered modern feminist topics even today regarding equal opportunity. I think Rand's response was both naive and correct. I do think in 1979, women were not as encouraged to take on more leadership roles as they are now, but Rand is correct that our nation was best suited to correct for it, which it has. Interesting that Rand acknowledges a pink wage gap existing at the time, but then she offers a solution similar to what Jordan Peterson would offer Channel 4 nearly 40 years later, demand better pay at an individual level.
As for the particular question, I caught the rudeness in the wording of the question "I'm more educated", and it's a BS qualification the lady uses to defend the rudeness, because the original qualifier wasn't needed. Just ask the question. I think Rand was rude to simply refuse to hear the rest of the question and not answer, but it didn't cause me to question Rand's motive. What happened next was surprising, so I suggest others watch it to see for themselves. I don't think this would happen today.
Spoiler...
Donahue, knowing his guest has already refused to answer takes what he considers to be Rand's position and argues it against the questioner's position. And I think Donahue got the position generally correct, because Rand can be seen in the background nodding along with his statements.
In just 4 minutes of viewing, I saw Donahue debate two sides on various issues, which shows he knows the issues and isn't afraid to understand what is behind those issues. That's a form of journalism we have lost. I'm not a big fan of Donahue (seriously, I didn't like his show and later often didn't like him), but I appreciate him holding a level of professionalism for his profession that is greatly lacking today. Just those 4 minutes are great TV.
Ayn Rand (nee' Alyssa Zinovia Rosenbaum) was an emotionally crippled widow and in poor health when she was played for good TV viewing by nascent Maury Povich (Phil Donahue). This scene made the Objectivist weirdo seem pretty human after all though.
Donahue was wonderful - because he would interview anyone - anyone! - and let them speak.
Now we have the bulldozer leftist View ladies. ugh.
The essence of the "rude" woman's point was "I just think that's wrong." Honestly not too much to engage with there. Rand did jump the gun assuming the point was going to be "I liked your work before I got more educated, now I don't like it" but in fairness that bit of biography was superfluous.
1. She was quite haughty with that questioner, but I kind of like that having rejected the premise of the question (and Hoodlum is right it was an unneeded preamble) she just does not back down. 2. Rand's comments on the Middle East "problem" are as true today as they were then, and good for her for defending them against Phil's soft-headed criticism. 3. I loved her answer about a woman president, which seems timely now.
Even then ITT was a rival to AT&T, which was eventually broken up by government action.
I do think the question was rude. More educated does not equal smarter, and that was her implication. She should have simply posed her question regarding conglomerates without involving her personal background.
Never watched a full episode don't think I'll start now. I know he was a huge phenomenon but that was during my most militant iconoclastic phase.
"More educated" = indoctrinated
--- I'm just guessing that Ayn Rand chose to treat her exactly as she deserved based on what she said. [Ann Althouse'
THUD!
I liked the intellectual power he showed when he wore a skirt on his show and mugged for the cameras. What a laff riot the man was.
--- she was old school, having lived through the Russian Revolution
We the Living
Thanks for reminding me how amazing Ayn Rand was. Good for her for not taking the insult from the audience member. She stood up to the questioner, the audience, and Phil Donahue as well. Most of us put our desire be agreeable and our wish to be liked above our principles.
All I know is I was selling computers and kicking ass. Then I read Atlas Shrugged and just couldn’t t work with those guys another minute. Not that anything was bad, I loved that job, but I HAD to do it all by myself. There was no other option ,that was 1991. I’ve built business’s and lost businesses but I’ve never looked at life any other way since then. The greatest books I’ve ever read are Atlas Shrigged (If you like Fountainhead better, I ain’t arguing), Huckleberry Finn and Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. It’s crazy how they influence my life. Also, the greatest movie in History is Used Cars, cause selling is in my heart.
Also, 24”, 19” and a 16” speckled trout yesterday along with a 16” flounder. We’re catching so many huge redfish I’ve lost interest.
--- the current grade-flation environment
OK, here.
He first observed grade inflation as a young professor during the Vietnam era. “When I started to call it out, I didn’t think it was that important. I thought it was just a symptom. But not now.” Thanks to grade inflation, “a professor is unable to pass judgment on a student. And what that turns into is a desire to be rid of judgment altogether and to pass judgment against those who pass judgment. The result is an aggressive relativism.”
As Mr. [Harvey] Mansfield tells it, grade inflation had two causes in the late 1960s. “One was the Vietnam War, when a criterion for being drafted was how you stood in your class.” Professors, “out of opposition to the war and sympathy for the students, kept grades high.” The other cause was the arrival of academically unprepared black students. “Nobody wanted to give a C to a black student,” he says, “and if you didn’t do that, then you couldn’t give a C to a white student.” These two factors caused an “upward draft that raised grades. Then after a while it became routine, because everybody likes it. Students like it, parents like it.”
Right? Is he not right?
And thus the conclusion:
Mr. Mansfield also argues that the ills of grade inflation have seeped into wider American society. “One of the things grade inflation does is to rob students of knowledge of what they’re good at, and not so good at.” Ostensible success in school “doesn’t tell employers whether the graduates of college are good at something. It robs us of necessary information.”
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-long-view-of-higher-eds-decline-college-university-professor-conservative-harvard-96bb22a5
It is the most evil people among us who proclaim their altruism and good intentions the loudest.
It is for our own good.
One of the things grade inflation does is to rob students of knowledge of what they’re good at -- Harvey Mansfield
more educated now = i was stupid when i liked your thoughts, ideas and positions back then...
Virtue signaling is a massive problem. You can tether it to so many other sociological problems in our society. Virtue (from the Latin Vir/Virtus - "manliness") signaling is all about signaling the virtue, not demonstrating it.
Interestingly, the cohort that worships the signaling and not the demonstration of virtue most are women. It's just like the race card - deploy this card for instant ascendancy. It's ironic that the thing so many women and many quisling men wish to signal while avoiding demonstration is etymologically derived from the "manliness" they so lack.
About each person's actions always ask "why". Truly good and altruistic intentions are rare indeed.
I just watched a video by TIKhistory where he maps out the various 20th century ideologies showing the root in Kant. Interestingly, he says Ayn Rand was not influenced by Kant or Hegel which makes here objectivism unique.
Here's the video offset to his comments on Rand:
https://youtu.be/v7_J_daQkSU?t=1793
It would be fine if she's a conservative. A man wouldn't get away with it towards a progressive.
Saying that she used to agree with Rand's philosophy, but now she's more educated implies that there is something lacking in Rand's education that allows her to continue to believe the same philosophy.
Rand said the woman was impolite, not rude.
To me, "impolite" implies that the other person is aware of the insult. "Rude" is just being thoughtlessly crass.
The woman didn't ask a question, she made an assertion, and in a condescending tone.
I loved what Rand said about the Middle East beginning around 35:20. And her support for Israel actually got applause.
I was amused by the commentary at 41:50-43:15 regarding electing a female president.
The idea that grades rob students of knowledge of what they're good at is silly. There's a lot of things in life that we don't get grades for amd we can know whether we're good at it or not. And there's a lot of ways to guide students in their strengths and weaknesses besides grades. Grade inflation isn't good but it's not the robber of awareness.
Roger that
Thank you for this link.
"Did anger and offense only descend upon us after 1979?" No only when Reagan and Thatcher proved there was still some life left in the West did the the Left realize they hadn't won the argument by default.
Donahue's most interesting moment was actually his show with Jerry Rubin. Dig that up and watch him get schooled...I was in college in Oxford, Ohio at the time, and we watched Phil all the time as he was out of Dayton.
If you're so disturbed by lying--as everyone should be--how can you abide Master Liar Donny Trump? Face it. You overlook his towering sins and failings because you agree with him on whatever bullshit he emits unceasingly, like a man with perpetual fecal incontinence.
Agree with you, Ann. The woman was rude, and Donahue defended it.
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