Writes Michelle Boorstein, in "JD Vance’s Catholic conversion is part of young conservative movement/The Republican vice-presidential nominee and Ohio senator was raised nominally evangelical, then dabbled with atheism before converting in 2019" (WaPo).
Vance, fluent in both evangelical and Catholic cultures, is now navigating a party whose rank and file is dominated by the former, even as he represents the rising power of the latter in the conservative movement. He has sought to unify the groups around a common social conservatism, as opposed to any differences. In a talk this month to the evangelical advocacy group Faith & Freedom Coalition... Vance mentioned his 'Christian' faith several times but never used the word 'Catholic.' When he told his story of returning to faith, he spoke not of the intellectual pull of his new faith or the comfort of its longevity, but of his desire to be a more gentle father and husband....
My sense is that most politicians refer to their religion in the broadest terms whenever they can. They try to be relatable, so why say Catholic instead of Christian?
Vance was "raised nominally evangelical, then dabbl[ed] with atheism," and "was baptized Catholic in 2019. We're told he says was "drawn by... Catholicism’s rich, detailed and nuanced philosophy and also its long history."
That's a paraphrase, not JD's own words. For his own words, we can read his 2020 essay "How I Joined the Resistance/On Mamaw and Becoming Catholic" (The Lamp Magazine). Excerpt:
[T]he uncomfortable fact is that the Christ of the Catholic Church always seemed a little different from the Jesus I’d grown up with. A little too stodgy, too formal. Sallman’s famous portrait of Christ hung upstairs near my bedroom, and that’s how I encountered him: personal and kind, but a little forlorn. The Christ of Catholicism floated high above you, as a grown man or a baby, wreathed in beams of light and crowned like a king. There is no way to avoid the discomfort a woman like Mamaw felt with that kind of a Christ. The Catholic Jesus was a majestic deity, and we had little interest in majestic deities because we weren’t a majestic people.
This was the most significant hangup I encountered after I began to think about becoming Catholic. I could think myself out of most standard objections. Catholics didn’t, it turned out, worship Mary. Their acceptance of both scriptural and traditional authority slowly appeared to me as wisdom, as I watched too many of my friends struggle with what a given passage of Scripture could possibly mean. I even began to acquire a sense that Catholicism possessed a historical continuity with the Church Fathers—indeed, with Christ Himself—that the unchurched religion of my upbringing couldn’t match. Yet I couldn’t shake the feeling that if I converted I would no longer be my grandmother’s grandson. So for many years I occupied the uncomfortable territory between curiosity about Catholicism and mistrust.
I got there in a pretty conventional way. I joined the Marines after high school.... I returned in 2006, skeptical of the war and the ideology that underpinned it. Mamaw was dead, and without a church or anything to anchor me to the faith of my youth, I slid from devout to nominal, and then to something very much less. By the time I left the Marines in 2007 and began college at The Ohio State University, I read Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris, and called myself an atheist....
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111 comments:
So much for the ban on "religious tests" for political office. Traditional Catholics are now " domestic terrorists ".
"[said Geoff Layman, head of the University of Notre Dame’s political science department and an expert on political behavior and religion]"
"Gee, I wish we had one of them doomsday machines."
Buck, you can get one at the same store where they make "expert[s] on political behavior and religion."
There is no way to avoid the discomfort a woman like Mamaw felt with that kind of a Christ
The girls I grew up with openly discussed the pros of Jesus' inguinal crease on the cross, so I guess they weren't like Mamaw
I don't [believe in God], she sobbed. But the God I don't believe in is a good God, a just God, a merciful God. He's not the mean and stupid God you make Him out to be.
Catch-22
Grandmothers in poor white communities perform the same function as grandmothers in poor black communities: Holding the family together and raising children after fathers go AWOL.
This subject interests me. There were no "evangelical Catholics" when I was a kid. You were one or the other or something else, but not both. Hugh Hewitt was the first one I heard talk about it. He was raised evangelical but married a Catholic and blended he two in his own life. Sort of. What he does is attend mass during the week and evangelical church on Sunday (if memory serves).
Anyway, since then (about 15 years ago) I've noticed a strain of Catholic more willing to share the Gospel, which is really the main difference in practice between evangelical faiths and the RC church. But I still don't understand the theological differences that were important when I was growing up in what was called a "Bible based Church." That is, the New Testament says clearly that no single man on earth can claim to represent God or speak for him, but Catholicism invests these powers in the Pope, who's word is as good as the Bible.
Then there is my serious distrust of any and every bureaucracy, including faith based ones. Therefore I distrust the Vatican (which has proved wise). Just like I distrust the Southern Baptist Convention (which has proved wise). In the former case they sheltered child predators and in the latter they went Woke, exchanging the supremacy of the Gospel for progressivism and child predation. Kind of a theme developing there...
How can a staunchly self-avowed anti-racist newspaper like the Washington Post publish such an overtly racist article?
Geoff Layman, head of the University of Notre Dame’s political science department and an expert on political behavior and religion
After COVID as soon as I see a university employee referred to as and expert, my first thought is they are full of shit. It's instant. And I don't think I'm wrong.
Geoff Layman is not more and "expert" on political behavior than the average voter. Expert on religion seems ridiculously broad.
If you literalize a religion, you turn into a moron on policy.
and an expert on political behavior and religion
Oh, well, if he's an expert we should certainly listen to him!
The Press rarely quotes experts on Democratic liars.
My sense is that if a politician uses "Christian," he or she is a Protestant, not a Catholic. Obviously, Catholics are Christians, but Catholic politicians are proud to call themselves Catholic. Think Biden. Vance's grandmother, born 1933, grew up in a time and place where there was still considerable anti-Catholic bigotry. Think JFK campaigning in West Virginia in the 1960 primary. Vance, born in 1984, perhaps can hardly conceive of those times, but he may have gotten a sense from his grandmother.
What Hitler did in his Mein Kampf, was identify what perfection would be and who the scapegoat was that is preventing it.
I'm struck how the author only talks about white evangelical grandmas who don't go to church as if there is no population of black (or hispanic) grandmas doing the exact same thing!
Ah, WaPo wants to discuss religion in terms of various sects, differentiate the sects, and force a discussion. I won’t join that effort.
I put in 10 month of RCIA to re-join the Catholic Church when I moved back to WI in 2014. Was raised Lutheran. Baptized Catholic as a baby. Vance is right about Marianism. She is not worshipped but is more of an intermediary. Of course she is admired. There are a lot of great things about the Catholic Church.
But I haven't been to mass since COVID. When the Catholic Church shut down via orders from the state and restricted the distribution of sacraments they showed little faith in their own beliefs. Also, Pope Francis is an asshole, and the liberal, gay Jesuits seem to be taking over everything.
May we could just call the Last Supper Trannies from the Paris opening ceremony as Jesuits instead of gay.
I'm struck how the author only talks about white evangelical grandmas who don't go to church as if there is no population of black (or hispanic) grandmas doing the exact same thing!
[Color] People like... try harder.
Atheists are religious, everyone is, but place their faith in mortal gods and goddesses (e.g. themselves.
The Church in secular variants is replaced with the government, NGOs, corporations, etc., used to proselytize the general population through coercion, appeal, marketing, cancelation, etc.
"The Christ of Catholicism floated high above you, as a grown man or a baby, wreathed in beams of light and crowned like a king."
As a former altar boy, I would say the "Christ of Catholicism" was most often represented as a man nailed to a cross wearing a crown of thorns and suffering from a fresh chest wound.
"My sense is that if a politician uses "Christian," he or she is a Protestant, not a Catholic. Obviously, Catholics are Christians, but Catholic politicians are proud to call themselves Catholic."
It has struck me for many years how many Catholics refer to themselves as Catholic and refer to Protestants as "Christian." There's no bias or self-analysis here, it's just how they differentiate. As in, "I'm Catholic but have many Christian friends." Or "I usually go to a Catholic mass but sometimes visit a Christian church." This is true across different generations, and I used to correct it, but now don't bother as it's so common. My Protestant students don't usually make that same distinction (though can have anti-Catholic bias at times)
"JD Vance’s Catholic conversion is part of young conservative movement"
Under the current pope, what's "conservative" about Catholicism? Abortion, OK. Anything else?
Using "Catholic" is limiting. As for converting to the Catholic faith, I understand Vance's position. The Protestant faiths can be weak reeds, with little intellectual substance. And in the last 30 years many of them have become just plain nutty with Espicopalians leading the way. Most of their pastors seem to be neo-pagans or Jewish wannabees.
With the catholic Church you have a rich intellectual tradition. Almost 2000 years of people thinking and commenting on the Bible and Christianity and coming up with an intelligent doctrine. Unfortunately, the Catholic Church comes with a lot of baggage, like the current Pope. The Orthodox church is a good alternative.
Pretty sure Hugh Hewitt was raised RC. Attended RC high school for sure. Don't know his wife's faith, but I think he drifted away from the Church over its economic liberalism post Vatican 2. Then returned under the influence of fierce anti-communist John Paul 2nd.
The traffic of religious conversion doesn't just go from low church to high church. It's said that in Latin America, every 40 seconds someone converts to evangelical Protestantism. But, on the hi-falutin' end, there's a reason why "fides quarens intellectum" is in Latin.
On this side of the Atlantic, there really aren't many high church alternatives to the Roman Catholic Church. Here in Uhmerica, the Orthodox Churches are very wrapped up with preserving their own ethnic identities, with the non-ethnic Orthodox Church in America being a very small part of the Eastern Orthodox mix. In Germany, for example, there's a more high church style of Lutheranism, one that's in touch with all the work in critical history and Biblical hermeneutics that German Lutheranism practically invented in the late 18th and 19th centuries. And in the UK, standard Anglicanism is much more high church and "Catholic" than Episcopalianism is in the US. Over here, someone who's looking for UK standard Anglicanism will end up in what's called an Anglo-Catholic parish, and those are not common.
Funny, but about the only church where I live that was open during Covid was the Catholic Church. I don’t remember the exact circumstances.
Notre Dame?
Mayor Pete's dad taught at Notre Dame and he was the world's leading Gramasci scholar; a very influential Communist that created the commie March through the institutions.
Notre Dame was also where 1619 Project creator Nikole Hannah-Jones was radicalized.
Notre Dame is now just another liberal/progressive academic factory. Catholic In Name Only. CINO.
A good example of the vapid thinking of Protestants came during the Iraq war. PBS had three religious leaders on the show - a Rabbi, a Priest, and a Protestant minister. They were asked whether it OK for us to commit an act of agression and attack Iraq.
The Rabbi quoted from the Talmud, and said it was OK.
The Priest quoted from Catholic Just war doctrine and said it was not OK.
The Protestant Pastor just said "I agree with the Rabbi"! Whether he'd read the Talmud was unclear.
"I'm struck how the author only talks about white evangelical grandmas"
A lot of writers (casual or professional) on religion have little to no experience with those from other races or cultures. The discussions about white evangelicals exposes this in so many ways. They really don't have any clue that people of other races and cultures have a religious experience, except for their favored progressive or liberal voices who use the term reverend without really believing in Christ, which is really pretty rare.
Higher classes like the idea of religion as an institution and framework but don't believe in the teachings. While a lot of folks in the lower classes have a lot of the beliefs, though usually folk versions of it, without really caring for the institutions. Which is why most active churches are really more middle class affairs.
There are individuals with a homosexual orientation limited to their pairing choices (e.g. couplets). Stop judging and labeling them in blocs under the "gay" or "lesbian" labels. Oh, and lower the Rainbow flag, albinophobia is not a redeeming quality.
Hugh Hewitt:
"My wife has been Presbyterian from birth. I’m a cradle Catholic. All of our children were raised in the Presbyterian tradition."
Funny, I always thought he was a Mormon.
Trump voters never vote for him because they agree with him on policy.
They vote for him because of a pathological psychological condition that only guys like Layman can diagnose.
To my shock and dismay, Creighton expelled students who didn't get vaxed.
I was at a rowing regatta at Creighton during Covid and I ran into a bunch of Creighton female undergrads wearing masks outside. The rowers were also forced to wear masks.
I asked one of the young women why they were wearing masks outside and off campus, "Creighton makes us."
Creighton has become more liberal on the politics than I would like.
The left/dems/LLR-dems/establishment secularists, having made strong political and cultural common cause with islamic supremacists, are quite nervous about the growing interconnectedness between those Christian denominations that hold fast to biblical precepts and refuse to go along with the "church of the woke" that are nothing more than leftist/marxist outposts intended to undermine the only religion that is considered okay to attack in every way every day.
Thus, the FBI labels Latin Mass attendees and conservative evangelicals, amongst other conservative groups, as potential terrorists. They seem to know perfectly well who it is that stands in the way of their destruction of western civilization.
The Church of England is a joke per my British friends. But then, maybe I have the wrong friends.
rcocean: "The Protestant Pastor just said "I agree with the Rabbi"! Whether he'd read the Talmud was unclear."
"Protestant Pastor" is doing alot of work there. Could you be more specific as to denomination? It makes a difference.
Pretty sure Hugh Hewitt was raised RC. Attended RC high school for sure.
That sounds more correct than my memory. Now I recall him talking about nuns the way The Blues Brothers do.
Dave Begley: "Notre Dame is now just another liberal/progressive academic factory. Catholic In Name Only. CINO."
A part of long discussions these days about Jesuit institutions that have gone far off the rails and been fully captured by the Left. I can't think of a single Jesuit University that hasn't been captured and this has trickled down into the Jesuit High School level as well with some notable exceptions that hold the line against the left/woke.
The first Iraq war started in response to invasion of Kuwait, deferred through a ceasefire sustained under Clinton, then ended under Bush with the claim that Iraq had violated several conditions of the ceasefire.
"This subject interests me. There were no "evangelical Catholics" when I was a kid."
Catholics are not, by nature, evangelical these days.
They tend to let good works speak for them. Food banks, hospitals, schools, etc.
Why did they have to use an insult like “white people” ?
Georgetown is no longer Catholic at all. And I love when Creighton crushes GT in bb.
When I met JD Vance this year, I'll still recommend a Jesuit high school for his kids in the DC area. Better than Sidwell Friends; that I can tell you.
In Kamalot they’ll eat ham and jam, but mostly Spam a lot.
Creighton is a Jesuit school. All Jesuit schools are run by woke. They are overwhelmingly female enrollment.
As a former altar boy, I would say the "Christ of Catholicism" was most often represented as a man nailed to a cross wearing a crown of thorns and suffering from a fresh chest wound.
Heard a Baptist pastor (probably in Highland, CA) explain why we didn't use the crucifix or wear them as jewelry once. He said, "Our Christ overcame the cross. He's not stuck up there. And he's not just the baby Jesus of the Nativity Scene. He rose again and sits at the right hand of God." Another Christian pastor, maybe Greg Laurie, said that using the crucifix to represent Christ is like using JFK in the limo on the way to the hospital in Dallas as his official portrait.
I've been in a lot of churches. Greg Laurie's had outstanding musicians on Sunday evenings.
Gusty Winds,
I too quit going to mass during Covid. I wanted to go, but the church literally shut down because they were going to be limited in how many could attend. Local priest thought it better to have NO MASS rather than possibly have to “turn away” someone if the numbers got too high.
Mostly I was angry at the fallable humans in the organization that made bad decisions and bowed to Caesar instead of doing the right thing.
Went back a year later because I realized I was only hurting myself, keeping myself away from God. Missing out.
I hope you find your way back.
"Expert" = Asswipe. GFY,lib.
there was another religious historian candida moss, who doubted the martyrdom of Christians, so yes Notre Dame is useless,
The Latin Mass is what I grew up with. I would prefer it if I were still going to church. I guess that makes me a Domestic terrorist.
We had evangelical Jews in California even. My evangelical step-daughter met with a whle group of them weekly and they kept kosher and had menoras etc. I remember Jews for Jesus talking at the non-denominational Bible Church I attended as a pup.
My friend Steve Shermett was raised a non-religious Jew, went to Bible Study with me in High School and eventually became a rabbi and a pastor in Phoenix. His specialty is Jewish history in Israel and how it informs current events and Christianity. Ten years ago he quit preaching to take up acting and now he plays a Rabbi (Josiah) in The Chosen. (New episodes streaming soon and airing nationwide on the CW channel this Fall.) He also played the prophet Samuel in "David: A King's Calling" which just won first place at short films awards show in Hollywood.
Readering said...
My sense is that if a politician uses "Christian," he or she is a Protestant, not a Catholic. Obviously, Catholics are Christians, but Catholic politicians are proud to call themselves Catholic. Think Biden.
No, Readering, lying sack of shit Democrat politicians who worship only the State often lie some more and call themselves "Catholics".
But you know they're lying, because you can't be pro-abortion, and Catholic.
It's like being "personally opposed to slavery, but publicly for it"
"White people like Vance’s grandmother who are strongly anti-institution and don’t go to church but consider themselves very much Christian..."
And?? So what? Who cares? Meanwhile Harris is what? Oh a Baptist with a Jewish husband.. but do either of them practice their religion??? Who knows.. who cares?
Blogger Dave Begley said...
Notre Dame is now just another liberal/progressive academic factory. Catholic In Name Only. CINO.
Same with Marquette.
"Protestant Pastor" is doing alot of work there...
Not on PBS. If intended as a contributing voice, it almost always means mainline minister of the Bill Moyers variety.
the Latin mass gives us
I can beat you at dominoes
No you can't beat us at dominoes
I can beat you at dominoes ...
Blogger Sebastian said...
"JD Vance’s Catholic conversion is part of young conservative movement"
Under the current pope, what's "conservative" about Catholicism? Abortion, OK. Anything else?
7/29/24, 10:57 AM
—————-
The future of the Church is most likely conservative.
People of the left have found new religions.
The Latin Mass is attended by mostly young families. At my daughter’s Catholic college the kids involved in Church related organizations (KofC, student Catholic newspaper, etc.) are almost universally politically on the right.
Each year the Archdiocese will install a recently ordained Priest in our Parish and then ship them to another Parish when a new class of Priests is ordained.For as long as I can remember these new Priests have been conservative. These are going to be the future leaders of the Church’s hierarchy.
Blogger RCOCEAN II said...
The Church of England is a joke per my British friends. But then, maybe I have the wrong friends.
7/29/24, 11:10 AM
—————————-
It is very possible that the head of the Church of England is not even Christian.
"Catholic politicians are proud to call themselves Catholic. Think Biden. "
--
Think Pedo Pete.
Is Vance's wife Catholic?
Paddy O said...It has struck me for many years how many Catholics refer to themselves as Catholic and refer to Protestants as "Christian." There's no bias or self-analysis here, it's just how they differentiate.
In Ireland, if you want to know whose house you're in, check the kitchen. Catholics keep their toaster on the counter. Protestants keep it in the cabinet when they're not using it. That's how they differentiate.
Re: Crucifix vs. an empty cross. I grew up in an evangelical Christian church with the empty cross. When I started attending mass (before converting), one of the things I loved about it was the crucifix at front and center. It reminded me that God knows what it means to suffer. And that’s why I wear one now.
All this to do about a candidate's religion. Vance has travelled a path with a lot of turns. He's a Catholic. His wife is a Hindu. I have no idea, nor do I care, what faith if any Vance and his wife choose to guide their three children.
The dogs in the press bark and the caravan moves on.
Oh, Lord… You’re so strict!
Leave it to the WaPo’s religion reporter to demonstrate that she has absolutely no understanding of what motivates adults to embrace a religious faith in general and Roman Catholicism in particular. She might want to sit quietly one week day in DC’s St Matthew’s Cathedral (not far from her DC office) and just watch what goes on at times when a Mass is not in progress. Of course she won’t because she might learn something she’d rather not know.
'Heard a Baptist pastor (probably in Highland, CA) explain why we didn't use the crucifix or wear them as jewelry once.'
Anything other than the Catholic or Orthodox churches are Johnny-come-latelies when it comes to Christianity...
one of the things I loved about it was the crucifix at front and center. It reminded me that God knows what it means to suffer. And that’s why I wear one now
Well my evangelical wife who admired the rituals of Catholicism and attended mass with her sister-in-law at Christmas also liked to wear one. That's nice. It might even spark interesting conversation. I'm glad for the crucifix, the empty cross, the baby Jesus and the empty tomb. It's all good news, according to the Bible.
That being said this might sound like the old "Is the Pope Catholic" set-up, but "evangelical" Christians in my experience are rarely evangelizing, preaching the Gospel, "good news" in Greek. They go to an evangelical church, listen to evangelical preachers, but 80% or more leave it up to others in the congregation to actually reach out to the community. Might even be one of those 90/10 splits. The saddest thing about going to Christian churches is realizing how people rarely take to heart the admonition to be Christ-like. It's almost indistinguishable from most social gatherings in the town.
mccullough
"Creighton University has a total undergraduate enrollment of 4,290 (fall 2022), with a gender distribution of 42% male students and 58% female students."
At least not 2 girls for every boy.
Anything other than the Catholic or Orthodox churches are Johnny-come-latelies when it comes to Christianity
Perhaps you mistakenly believe only highly organized churches truly represent Christianity. When the Apostle Paul writes of worshipping in local "churches" in the first century he means hosted in a private residence usually. Prior to that Christianity was historically a decentralized worship-driven endeavor as illustrated by Jedus staying in "believers' homes" when he traveled in Judea. Likewise John's letters "to the Seven Churches" written when he was exiled to the Greek Isle of Patnos (The Revelations) were all addressed to specific localities throughout Asia Minor, small churches run by "brothers and sisters in Christ" and not organized by any bureaucratic structure, but beset by the same human foibles many of us have mentioned here today.
The Roman Catholic church started later as the Roman Empire's government collapsed and they adopted the Apostle Peter as their "founder," but there is no clear historical record of him traveling to Rome and starting a church and he died in 64 AD. The Catholic Church named the first recorded Pope about 77 AD and built their first cathedral late in the 5th Century. But their organization was vastly different than the churches started in Jesus's time and during the lifetimes of the apostles, who were hunted to their death's by that same Roman Government, often martyred in gruesome ways.
for the current discussion how well does this holdup today? OF LIVING DEATH by Ayn Rand | December 08, 1968
Obviously I subscribe to the Great Schism of 1064 that is widely believed to have been the starting date for the two great denominations, Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, both claiming origins at the Pentecost. My personal belief is that the bureaucratic structure that existed to split then grew up in the roughly thousand years between Christ's crucifixion and that date in July. Evangelism has continued the "small church" movement started among the Apostles. "Protestant" is a term that didn't appear until Martin Luther or Calvin in the 16th Century.
My opinion is all three (Catholic, Evangelical and Orthodox) can lay claim to having origins in Jesus's time or immediately following it when the Apostles adopted the Great Commission. This helps explain why evangelical churches often claim to be non-denominational, separating themselves from the two original denominations. Although over the last few hundred years denominations within this branch have appeared, none is really dominant or speaks for the whole movement. Baptists try, but they've got problems.
Minor plaint: Christians nowadays are taught not to say "was baptized Catholic" or "baptized Lutheran." All are baptized in the Christian faith. That said, separatist language is still employed by older members who grew up when denominations mattered.
Re Evangelical Christians. In 1974 my daughter was in high school and attended teen group night at a local Catholic Church. We attended their Christmas program and party. The guitar playing priest asked for requests for songs to play. When someone asked for Joy to the World, imagine our surprise when the priest started playing and singing "Jerimiah was a bullfrog!" We were not Catholic but it was my first sign of an evangelical Catholic.
It was a far cry from when we first moved to Louisiana in 1967 and many Catholics were outraged at the mass being in English instead of Latin. Is that why we now have those evangelical Catholics? They read their Bibles, they know the scriptures.
AMDG: "It is very possible that the head of the Church of England is not even Christian."
Quite so. Its rather remarkable hearing these types backing away from the Divinity of Christ, declaring many ways to enter the Kingdom other than thru Christ, declaring Jesus's teachings as just nice ideas from a prophet, etc.
Goldenpause: Leave it to the WaPo’s religion reporter to demonstrate that she has absolutely no understanding of what motivates adults to embrace a religious faith in general and Roman Catholicism in particular.
"
That has been very much on brand for all of legacy media for decades.
Domestic terrorist ==>> terror in the kitchen? fixes superior pot-lucks?
At my small, southern, Baptist-affiliated undergrad college back in the 1970s, there was a cadre of students who used their evangelical faith as a cudgel against others, assuming a moral superiority based on nothing more than their own feelings of superiority and demanding we be saved or burn. It was with great pleasure that I, a recent but severely lapsed Catholic myself, would tell them that according to MY religion they were mere latecoming heretics, fallen into mistaken beliefs away from the One True Faith, the One True Church, and that they would burn in hell for all eternity unless they abandoned their apostasy from Rome. Being one-upped in the moral self-righteousness department was usually a new experience for these preening evangelicals and never once did I get any cogent discussion of beliefs from them after telling them that, which was in fact the goal of making the statement. Use this information as you deem useful and necessary.
My father was a convert from Baptist to Catholic, my mother raised in the faith. Hard right, antifluoridation, antiabortion, anti public school, John Bircher, Tridentine Mass Catholics, both of them. There is no Catholic more catholic than a convert, and no Catholic more stubborn about Catholicism than a little old lady decades in the faith.
What all that means is that Vance won't be bullied about his faith, and he won't make sense sometimes, but that he will fight against opponents to his administration's policies like a Templar with visions of taking Jerusalem.
Back to AMDG's post, I can still recall when Diana passed away a high up muckety muck in the CoE was being interviewed about Diana and he was going on and on and on about how amazing and wonderful Diana was.
Somehow, Mother Theresa came up in the conversation and this jerkwad immediately started denigrating Mother Theresa and her life's work. Even the reporter, presumably of the left, appeared stunned at the attack and said something to the effect of 60 years dedicated to serving the poorest of the poor certainly meant something.
I wonder if that clip is floating around somewhere?
which is why in part Islam is the fastest growing faith, in the UK, people will rally to a strong faith, not a weak one,
It’s encouraging to see a religious revival starting recently. By that I mean a new flow of believers that value the presence of God. They don’t seek religious morality police where their group often ruled by a Church
Lady is afraid of its own members. So Catholicism wins by appealing to those new believers and delivering the Holy Spirit’s presence in sacraments.
The Presbyterians in Appalachia soon morphed into Ralph Stanley Baptists. Not that there is anything wrong with that or with Billy Graham Crusades. But the college educated folks wanted more than the same Gospel message repeated over and over every Sunday.
Voila the Catholics have retained the Third Person of the Godhead who is present in Mass/ Communion sacraments. Those sacraments honor the Second Person of the Godhead that promised to come back but is not here now except in the Spirit.
The times are a changing.
'Perhaps you mistakenly believe only highly organized churches truly represent Christianity.'
My point is that all of the 'churches' other than the ones I named are just offshoots.
Any Protestant church is a copy with changes from the originals.
As a guy who grew up pretty much uncharged (my fault - one Sunday morning when I was still in kindergarten, I asked my Dad if Sunday School was required just like weekday school. He said it wasn't, and my reply was 'cool!'
In my teen years, I came to faith as the SoCal Jesus Movement was winding down, and joined a Baptist church (Swedish Baptist, a/k/a Southern Baptist Lite), then attended various churches while away at grad school. I was exposed to many different beliefs while there, from Catholicism to Reformed Baptist to Charismatic and Pentecostal and various others. I gained understanding and appreciation of other viewpoints while still maintaining my own convictions.
That said, I resist the Catholic notion that the Apostolic tradition is on a par with Scripture, especially when it diverges from clear Scriptural teaching. I also recognize that even as a Protestant, I and those like me owe a great debt to the RCC for preserving the holy writings, including those of the church fathers. Likewise we owe that same gratitude to the Scribes and Pharisees. Even so, Jesus had harsh words for the latter when they set aside the Word of God for the sake of their traditions.
I'm a cradle Catholic. I guess many/most Protestants* don't get the Communion of Saints non-worship of Mary, etc.? No, we don't 'worship' them, we ask them to intercede on our behalf as those who we regard as exemplars of the faith and thus closer to God.
Not that I'm practicing anymore. For a number of personal reasons, I became disenchanted with the Church. Then a few years ago when yet another sex abuse scandal broke (and note: I think the Catholic Church gets far too much scrutiny in that regard, in relative terms: public school teachers make priests look like a bunch of pikers in that respect), and the Babylon Bee put out a fake news article quoting the Vatican as saying something like " Well, that's bad, but we're more concerned with social justice and climate change".....and then shortly thereafter, the Vatican said almost the exact same thing.
* When I was very young I was watching some police show on TV and at the end they arrested someone. . . ."for prostitution!" and I was thinking "It's illegal to not be Catholic???"
Well, Joe, you are incorrect in limiting your statement to organized "churches" when discussing Christianity. To parody Jesus's quote about the poor, "Non-denominational churches have always been with us." They were here from His day and exist now apart from any overarching "Church" organization.
The term "protestant" that you use is indeed a Johnny-come-lately, but again refers to organized sects.
Since all three branches* of original Christianity that I've delineated (Catholic, Evangelical and Orthodox) trace their origins back to the Pentecost (the Last Supper), I'll remain agnostic about which is oldest technically speaking. But there are three, not two branches.
*Listed in alphabetical order for fairness' sake.
Are Grandparents a fair game now?
"P. V. Gopalan was married to Rajam Gopalan, who was betrothed to him at age twelve and began living with him at sixteen."
@Mike we don't disagree, just talking past each other.
My point is that Protestant churches that claim to be the last word in Christianity are offshoots.
It's like someone founding an 'Islamic' mosque but proclaiming it's OK to eat pork and drink beer.
Btw, I can find nothing on the early 'church' that you label 'Evangelical.'
Technically, Notre Dame University is not a Jesuit college; instead, it is administered by the Congregation of the Holy Cross (CSC).
A lot of my family have gone there.
A close relative is a priest there who teaches theology. And while he is, undeniably, politically liberal, he is theologically conservative.
Lots of people confuse Catholic Social Justice teaching for woke "Social Justice."
There's a reason the latter uses the same terminology, and it's not to clarify matters.
The problem is protestantism is it often devolves into a "Do-it-yourself" religion, with people "reading their bible" and coming up with all kinds for ridiculous views on what Christ and God are all about.
Even worse, many of these people are ignorant and don't understand what the words in the KJV bible mean, or if they have a newer translation, don't understand its been translated from Hebrew and other languages. I don't know how many arguments I had a youth with evangelicals trying to figure out whey "Thou shalt not Kill" is in the bible since God and everyone else is running around killing a whole lot of people. The answer is the word should be better translated into modern English from Hebrew as "you shall not Murder".
Anyway, take the Protestant road and too often you end up with Pat Robertson talking nonsense about how Putin going to destroy israel, or a Pastor in purple hair asserting God loves lesbians, or a Pastor who doesn't believe in Jesus Christ.
The Catholic Church has plenty of flaws but they aren't the massive ones you see in Protestant churches.
BTW, Drago asked upthread what "Protestant Minister" I was writing about and IRC, he was Southern Baptist.
There are subjects on which I don't agree with RCOCEAN II these days... but I agree with (I assume) him here on the DIY tendencies of much of Protestantism. I was raised Catholic but married a man whose strongest affiliation in a largely unchurched youth was with the Episcopal church, and for reasons that made a lot of sense to me at the time, I was accepted into that church upon our marriage. I was very happy and spiritually fulfilled there for thirty years.
But for other, new reasons (one of which was that we had an interim rector who had been a Jesuit priest until he decided maybe he wasn't called to a life of celibacy after all and therefore maybe he ought to change horses, so already I was like, nice vow-taking, buddy, but as a divorcee myself I don't have much solid ground to stand on, but it was actually his treatment of our Director of Music Ministries that put me over the edge), I left my current church at Pentecost and am at present trying to figure out whether I head back to the Catholics because they're still mostly doctrinal. I recognize the incongruity, but we all know Jesuits aren't exactly the same as Catholics...
(Dave B will never find me where I'm hiding.)
Matthew 18:20. I'll attend any church that professes the Holy Trinity and salvation by faith, even if they get a bit in the weeds about works too.
My Methodist-raised wife decided the Catholic church where her uncle was a beloved priest suited her better, so in her young adulthood she converted, and coming from a high-church Episcopal background, I happily went along with her, even though I refused to do anything about Catholic catechism or confirmation or reconciliation. If she wanted to go to a holy-roller church I'd be OK with that too, so long as they didn't expect me to speak in tongues or handle snakes.
I'm kind of a Christian Deist these days, I think.
RCOCEAN: "BTW, Drago asked upthread what "Protestant Minister" I was writing about and IRC, he was Southern Baptist."
Thanks.
"There is no way to avoid the discomfort a woman like Mamaw felt with that kind of a Christ."
All we have is JD Vance's description of Bonnie Vance's religious beliefs. She has been dead since 2005 - so let's get off the kick about JD Bowman-Vance's walk through the valleys of Evangelical to Atheist to Catholic and conclude he prefers form over function since he became a politician. Candidates, including the forever agnostic Donald Trump, must declare "I'm a Christian" to win large-scale elections here.
The Church of England is a joke per my British friends.
In England these days, there are far more butts in the air in mosques on Friday than there are butts in Church of England pews on Sundays. I believe that has been true for at least ten or fifteen years.
If you haven't read the brilliant Iowahawk's hilarious rewrite of the "Canterbury Tales" ridiculing the former Arch-Druid of Canterbury and his love of Islamic sharia law, you must. It's a true classic of politico-religious satire:
https://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2008/02/heere-bigynneth.html
Like good Nazis - the left try every day to define "the other"
F the left.
@Elon Musk
@elonmusk
"The legacy media engages in the mass synchronization of emotion for political purposes.
They are a de facto arm of the DNC."
True. No wonder the Nazi left hate him - want him destroyed. He speaks truth.
Joke time.
Jesus is preaching when he notes a large crowd heading his way. Soon a woman drops next to him asking for protection. The crowd closes in and announces that the woman is a harlot and they are going to stone her.
Jesus stands tall and intones "Let any without sin cast the first stone!"
There is a silence and a stone comes from the back of the crowd, landing next to the woman. Jesus peers to the back and in an exasperated tone says "Mother, how many times have I asked you to stop doing that!"
Biden and Pelosi are fake Catholics. Discuss.
**Not found in the emotionally synchronized MSM(D).
FTR The God of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob is a Spirit as is the Spirit of Holiness and the man Jesus born of a woman by the Spirit of God as his Father. But no one really cares much about any of that until they discover that the supernatural miracles are real. Than it’s war whether you join a Christian group or not.
Tell us about your own version of religion, Gadfly. Don't be shy, now. Give us the full flavor. Assume we're as passionate about other people's religion as you are.
I am always amazed when the topic of religion comes up on Althouse. I know very few actual believers of any sort. It must be nice to have a spiritual belief. It's not the sort of thing that can be willed into existence.
I've always thought that one of the main differences between Protestant/Evangelical Christians and Catholics is that the former exhort you to search and study the Scriptures to know for yourself what is true doctrine, while the later leave it up to the Pope and Church leaders to tell you what is true doctrine. Protestants/Evangelicals read their Bibles almost every day, and believe that you are saved by grace by confessing your sins and believing in Jesus Christ as your personal savior, while Catholics believe that you are saved by observing the Sacraments of the Holy Roman Catholic Church. I'm just a retired lawyer, not a theologian, but this is my understanding.
I was curious what the Rabbi on PBS mentioned by RCOCEAN II might have said in his comment about Jews using the Talmud to justify war. I did a little research and found this interesting scholarly paper by a rabbi and professor of religious studies, but it offered no clear cut advice:
"A Jewish Perspective on War, Scripture, and Moral Accounting
Geoffrey Claussen
Elon University
Contemporary Jewish discussions of the ethics of initiating warfare (jus ad bellum) are often legal in character, building on the categories of war established by the Mishnah in reference to Deuteronomy 20. The Mishnah distinguishes between 'obligatory' wars, on the one hand, and 'optional' wars on the other hand. But the Mishnah and the discussions of the Mishnah in the Talmud offer little clarity as to what would make a contemporary war obligatory, optional, or, alternatively, prohibited by Jewish law.1
Contemporary scholars engaging the Mishnah’s legal framework have generally ruled that “obligatory” wars are, above all, wars of self-defense; others, though, have pointed to the Torah’s demands to launch aggressive wars as well.2 Some scholars have ruled that the category of 'optional' wars has no legal validity in the present day; others, though, have stressed that this category can justify wars for the sake of power, territory, and glory.3 Some scholars, looking to legal texts that place limits on warfare, have developed the legal category of 'prohibited wars'; others, often seeking greater license for war, have noted that the Mishnah does not offer a category of 'prohibited wars' at all.4
Anyone seeking to 'follow Jewish law' in deciding on the justice of a given war is unlikely to find clear direction. A widely echoed scholarly sentiment is that the Jewish legal tradition offers 'little direct evidence regarding the grounds on which one should morally evaluate a war,' as Aryeh Klapper has put it.5 ..."
It comes down to moral virtue. “do what is right and good in the sight of the Lord” (Deuteronomy 6:18),
"A Jewish Perspective on War, Scripture, and Moral Accounting
Geoffrey Claussen
Elon University
Protestants believe that without any difficulty you can understand a book written 2000 years ago in a different language with different cultural assumptions, a book which was translated by the English of the 17th century in the version which many read. And as a result Protestants often said and still say, that the world was created in six days and that there was no further evolution. Consequently, Darwin's proof that evolution happened (in some way) shook the Protestant faith whereas basic Catholic teaching as presented by St. Augustine and others understood what the Bible was saying in a different way which allowed for evolution.
"Evolution" does not have to mean "evolution by natural selection." Most scientists nowadays would say evolution happened by changes in chromosome number - in extreme cases by complete chromosome rearrangements. This theory of evolution completely undermines the theoretical basis of eugenics or structural racism which is eugenics as embodied in national policies. The strongest opponents of eugenics, i.e. structural racism, were the evangelical Protestants. Their opposition was based on their understanding of the teachings of Christ as related to natural selection but they were challenged on their statments about the six days. It is the evangelicals who held back eugenics. It's unfortunate that they had an exposed flank due to their insistence that anyone can read any part of the Bible and know that the first thing that comes into minds about what is being said is the actual meaning. The teachings of Christ are generally quite clear but many parts in the rest of the Bible are not, i.e., the world was created and completed in six days.
Humans are so limted - we aren't going to be right about everything. So, would you rather have been right about evolution and have been a supporter of eugenics and structural racism? or would you rather have been right about opposing eugenics and wrong about evolution? Myself, I'd rather be perfect but I'm not sure that's one of the options in life.
"P. V. Gopalan was married to Rajam Gopalan, who was betrothed to him at age twelve and began living with him at sixteen."
=================
this resemblance my grandparents!
He was school principal she did not school past 6th grade.
ich bin hillybilly
I once asked a very sweet but somewhat ditsy neighbor/friend who was raised Catholic but was married to her Episcopal husband in the Episcopal church, which they continued to attend, what she perceived as the major differences between the denominations.
After thinking about it for a bit, she informed me that the Episcopalians take off their coats for the service, while the Catholics do not.
An "expert" named Layman... Heh.
The Hopeless Soy Boy gadfly: "All we have is JD Vance's description of Bonnie Vance's religious beliefs."
That's a helluva lot more than your bizarre moronic hot takes that you crib from others without attribution and pass off as your own.
The Hopeless Soy Boy gadfly: "She has been dead since 2005 - so let's get off the kick about JD Bowman-Vance's walk through the valleys of Evangelical to Atheist to Catholic and conclude he prefers form over function since he became a politician."
Wow. Vance using his biological fathers name and later changing it to his mothers name really bothers you New Soviet Democraticals, doesn't it? Is it because Harris descends from a slave owning Jamaican family?
And no, lets NOT get off this kick...at all. Whenever one of you New Soviet Democraticals starts squealing like a stuck pig, admittedly multiple times per day these days, it invariably means there is something about what is being discussed that you believe is bad for Team Marxist....so the absolute opposite of "form over function"...which by the way perfectly describes the candidate your political betters are attempting to install in the White House.
RCOCEAN II said...
“PBS had three religious leaders on the show - a Rabbi, a Priest, and a Protestant minister.”
I’m assuming they walked into a bar after the show?
Protestants/Evangelicals read their Bibles almost every day, and believe that you are saved by grace by confessing your sins and believing in Jesus Christ as your personal savior, while Catholics believe that you are saved by observing the Sacraments of the Holy Roman Catholic Church.
You are incorrect - Catholics also believe that you're saved by God's grace and that alone, and as Protestants do (I'm assuming), that every person has been given free will (by God of course) to choose to accept or reject God's grace as personified in the sacrifice of Jesus, the Son persona of the Trinity.
Protestants' confession of sin as a vehicle of acceptance of God's free gift of grace is pretty much the same, ISTM, as the sacraments of the Catholic church - as the catechism says, an outward and visible sign of inward and invisible grace. But in all Christianity, as far as I can see, you cannot earn forgiveness nor redemption - they're granted to every human being, and then each person chooses whether to accept these gifts.
Catholicism may differ from Protestantism in that Catholicism doesn't absolutely require confession of sins - it seems to me that that confession, and the affirmative acceptance of Christ as Savior, are central to especially the nondenominational Protestant sects, whereas the only "required" sacraments in the Catholic Church are baptism and the Eucharist (which you're not supposed to receive if you have "serious sins" on your conscience, but rather go to the sacrament of Reconciliation - that's confession to a human being, the priest, not just in the privacy of your own heart - before receiving the Body of Christ). (In other words, if you've committed no serious sins, you don't have to confess anything. You're on the honor system, though.)
Further, and this is, I feel certain, not official Catholic doctrine but rather my hopeful interpretation, the Church-endorsed(? I think still?) doctrine of purgatory, a place between heaven and hell where you can be purged of whatever sins you held on your conscience at death, seems to me to imply that there's a way for the non-Christian to attain salvation after death - by accepting God's gift of grace while in that in-between place.
he Rabbi stated the Talmud says that if you know someone is going to come and kill you, you can strike first. That's what I remember from almost 20 years ago. To see if I was correct, I just googled that came up with this:
The Talmud teaches that individuals have the right and obligation to defend themselves, based on Exodus 22:1. The Talmud states, “If someone comes to kill you, get up early in the morning to kill him first” (Berakhot 58a; Yoma 85b; Sanhedrin 72a). This principle is also affirmed in the Shulchan Aruch, which states that if someone is being pursued with the intent to kill, they are permitted to defend themselves.
Gusty Winds "But I haven't been to mass since COVID. When the Catholic Church shut down via orders from the state and restricted the distribution of sacraments they showed little faith in their own beliefs."
Could you find another church?
Covid led me to switch from a liberal synagogue to Chabad because Chabad was the only one still having services. It's not a perfect match and we'll probably end up joining a liberal synagogue when my daughter's close to bat mitzvah age since girls don't go up and read from the Torah in Orthodox tradition. But we are very grateful to have Chabad.
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