July 1, 2024

"As for a President's unofficial acts, there is no immunity. The principles we set out in Clinton v. Jones confirm as much."

"When Paula Jones brought a civil lawsuit against then-President Bill Clinton for acts he allegedly committed prior to his Presidency, we rejected his argument that he enjoyed temporary immunity from the lawsuit while serving as President. Although Presidential immunity is required for official actions to ensure that the President's decisionmaking is not distorted by the threat of future litigation stemming from those actions, that concern does not support immunity for unofficial conduct. The 'justifying purposes' of the immunity we recognized in Fitzgerald, and the one we recognize today, are not that the President must be immune because he is the President; rather, they are to ensure that the President can undertake his constitutionally designated functions effectively, free from undue pressures or distortions. '[I]t [is] the nature of the function performed, not the identity of the actor who perform[s] it, that inform[s] our immunity analysis.' The separation of powers does not bar a prosecution predicated on the President's unofficial acts."

From the majority opinion in Trump v. United States, issued this morning.

Where is the line between official and unofficial in the charges against Trump? The lower courts rushed through the question, which means the issues are not properly developed for the Supreme Court:
Despite the unprecedented nature of this case, and the very significant constitutional questions that it raises, the lower courts rendered their decisions on a highly expedited basis. Because those courts categorically rejected any form of Presidential immunity, they did not analyze the conduct alleged in the indictment to decide which of it should be categorized as official and which unofficial. Neither party has briefed that issue before us (though they discussed it at oral argument in response to questions). And like the underlying immunity question, that categorization raises multiple unprecedented and momentous questions about the powers of the President and the limits of his authority under the Constitution. As we have noted, there is little pertinent precedent on those subjects to guide our review of this case a case that we too are deciding on an expedited basis, less than five months after we granted the Government's request to construe Trump's emergency application for a stay as a petition for certiorari, grant that petition, and answer the consequential immunity question.

The effort to hurry seems to have ended up slowing things down. It's not entirely back to square one, though, because the Court does offer some "guidance":

Certain allegations — such as those involving Trump's discussions with the Acting Attorney General — are readily categorized in light of the nature of the President's official relationship to the office held by that individual. Other allegations — such as those involving Trump's interactions with the Vice President, state officials, and certain private parties, and his comments to the general public — present more difficult questions. Although we identify several considerations pertinent to classifying those allegations and determining whether they are subject to immunity, that analysis ultimately is best left to the lower courts to perform in the first instance.... 

In dividing official from unofficial conduct, courts may not inquire into the President's motives. Such an inquiry would risk exposing even the most obvious instances of official conduct to judicial examination on the mere allegation of improper purpose, thereby intruding on the Article II interests that immunity seeks to protect.... 

Nor may courts deem an action unofficial merely because it allegedly violates a generally applicable law....  

Virtually every President is criticized for insufficiently enforcing some aspect of federal law (such as drug, gun, immigration, or environmental laws). An enterprising prosecutor in a new administration may assert that a previousPresident violated that broad statute. Without immunity, such types of prosecutions of ex-Presidents could quickly become routine. The enfeebling of the Presidency and our Government that would result from such a cycle of factional strife is exactly what the Framers intended to avoid. Ignoring those risks, the dissents are instead content to leave the preservation of our system of separated powers up to the good faith of prosecutors.... 

The President enjoys no immunity for his unofficial acts, and not everything the President does is official. The President is not above the law. But Congress may not criminalize the President's conduct in carrying out the responsibilities of the Executive Branch under the Constitution. And the system of separated powers designed by the Framers has always demanded an energetic, independent Executive. The President therefore may not be prosecuted for exercising his core constitutional powers, and he is entitled, at a minimum, to a presumptive immunity from prosecution for all his official acts. That immunity applies equally to all occupants of the Oval Office, regardless of politics, policy, or party....

214 comments:

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donald said...

“The United States of America has survived nearly 250 years without the Supreme Court having to specify the president has immunity. Why? Because no president before Donald Trump ever believed he was above the law and free to do whatever he wants with no consequences. There is no way to predict or even imagine how this ruling will impact this country in the future, when bad actors from either end of the spectrum could potentially rise to power”. This is what you have? Retard is not strong enough to describe you and your fellow travelers.

It was mentioned earlier, our government and constitution was formed based on honor, honesty and fairness. That you cocksuckers would violate they very principle in every moment if your waking squalid lives is well, shameful and despicable. You must face consequences for your stupidity and evil.

Drago said...

LLR-democratical Rich, fresh off his moronic Rupar-ing of Turley moment from just yesterday, attempts a modified Rupar that had already been tossed into the thread!

The LLR-democratical Brigade is not distinguishing itself very well these days, is it?

And LLR-democratical Chuck has gone fully around psycho Eddie Haskell Schizophrenic Bend!

Michael McNeil said...

dropping atomic bombs on two cities in Japan inhabited only by civilians

The constant gaslighting Robert tries to push on us! The fact is, the category he named above—which is, “two cities in Japan inhabited only by civilians” that were atom-bombed during WWII—flat doesn't exist.

Let's look at Hiroshima, as a single example. As the Wikipedia article on the “Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki” observes (with many footnotes): {quoting…}

At the time of its bombing, Hiroshima was a city of industrial and military significance. A number of military units were located nearby, the most important of which was the headquarters of Field Marshal Shunroku Hata's Second General Army, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan, and was located in Hiroshima Castle. Hata's command consisted of some 400,000 men, most of whom were on Kyushu where an Allied invasion was correctly anticipated. Also present in Hiroshima were the headquarters of the 59th Army, the 5th Division and the 224th Division, a recently formed mobile unit. The city was defended by five batteries of 70 mm and 80 mm (2.8 and 3.1 inch) anti-aircraft guns of the 3rd Anti-Aircraft Division, including units from the 121st and 122nd Anti-Aircraft Regiments and the 22nd and 45th Separate Anti-Aircraft Battalions. In total, an estimated 40,000 Japanese military personnel were stationed in the city.

Hiroshima was a supply and logistics base for the Japanese military. The city was a communications center, a key port for shipping, and an assembly area for troops. It supported a large war industry, manufacturing parts for planes and boats, for bombs, rifles, and handguns.

{/unQuote}

All these things made Hiroshima a legitimate military target. (A similar analysis can be done for Nagasaki.) Other cities much like these two in Japan (and Germany, for that matter)had already been basically completely obliterated by purely conventional bombing, with fundamentally equivalent death rates—a detail that Robert completely elides. Clearly only the fact that the technology of the strike(s) was nuclear in origin matters to him—in other words, it's all propaganda and posturing.

Yancey Ward said...

Rich is another one that didn't even bother reading the majority opinion.

Drago said...

Yancey Ward: "Rich is another one that didn't even bother reading the majority opinion."

Why read the decision itself when you can just lazily and mendaciously Rupar your way thru life?

SomeOtherTimSmith said...

Consider this hypothetical: Biden walks out onto the debate stage and declares, "I think you are dangerous to the nation and the latest polls say you are ahead," the latest polls," then pulls out a gun and assassinates Trump live in front of the nation. Can he be prosecuted for it?

As of yesterday's ruling, no. In theory yes, but there are no longer any mechanisms to enact that theory.

1) As of yesterday, all actions of a president are now presumed to be official acts, including murder, bribery, treason, and abuse of the military.

2) As of yesterday, all official acts have absolute immunity. For life.

3) As of yesterday, a president's motives are irrelevant for determining whether an act is official or not.

No one in either the Judicial or Legislative branch can even consider a president's motives without violating the separation of powers. The effects on impeachment are unclear, but they are not good. How can treason, bribery, or any other high crime or misdemeanor be established without consideration of motive?

4) As of yesterday, the fact that something is an ordinary crime is not a sufficient reason for declaring it unofficial.

SCOTUS directs us to use some additional process to make this determination... but what? Without motive there isn't much left.

5) As of yesterday, the president can order the justice department to look the other way. This kind of corruption is now, by definition, an official act that cannot be prosecuted. Likewise, the pardon power cannot be questioned.

Other than a 2A remedy, what checks are left on the Presidency?

Article II states that the job of a president is to see that the laws of the land are faithfully executed. How can breaking the law possibly be an official act? Logic and common sense say that breaking the law is incompatible with seeing that the laws are followed. We are no longer living in a republic where that is true. According to the Supreme Court, 2 + 2 = 5.

So, as I see it, as of yesterday we officially became a totalitarian state. The Constitution we all grew up under and swore to uphold is now just a dusty piece of paper.

The ONLY reason Biden won't be shooting Trump on live TV is that Biden has a code of ethics. That won't be the case for every future president.

Yancey Ward said...

SomeOtherTimSmith,

Another non-reader of the majority opinion, I see.

Congress would have to deal with Joe Biden after he assassinated Trump on stage. What would surely happen in your hypothetical, and completely consistent with yesterday's ruling, is that Biden would be impeached, convicted, and then tried in a court of law for the murder by either the state of Georgia or by the federal government. The decision yesterday only requires that it be demonstrated before trial that the act was an unofficial act. A murder on the stage of an unarmed man would surely be an easy demonstration of an unofficial act and would be backed up by the impeachment and conviction by the one branch of government given the power by The Constitution to judge a President's actions.

Really, Tim Smith, is your comment the level of your debating skills. It is a pretty pathetic attempt- not even up to Inga levels of argumentation.

Robert Cook said...

"Interesting the Supreme Court today basically ruled Nixon was right when he said 'When the President does it, its not illegal.'"

No. Nixon was wrong then, and the Supreme Court is stupidly, egregiously wrong now.

Robert Cook said...

SomeOtherTimeSmith @9:49am:

Absolutely! You have stated clearly the catastrophic scale of the Court's ruling.

Drago said...

Robert Cook: "SomeOtherTimeSmith @9:49am:

Absolutely! You have stated clearly the catastrophic scale of the Court's ruling."

LOL

Idiots patting each other on the back!

I can't even tell if they are just blowing smoke for effect or if they are truly just that stupid.

I think I will go with just that stupid.

SomeOtherTimSmith said...

"A murder on the stage of an unarmed man would surely be an easy demonstration of an unofficial act"

How so?

If someone were to run on stage screaming "Death to America" and attempt to shoot the president, would that be easy to demonstrate that shooting back was an unofficial act? No, the president would be preserving the continuity of government. That would clearly be an official act.

Now consider the case where the person on stage has no gun, but says, "Death to America! You will be blown up before nightfall!" Would shooting that person to send a message of toughness be an official act? Well, it's questionable, right? But under the rules given in this ruling the president's motives cannot be questioned so the fact that it is questionable is moot. It cannot be questioned.

The third case, the one I articulated above, is just a more extreme version of the second one. Trump is openly declaring that he will exact retribution on dozens of people, including Biden, for what he perceives as threats to his person. In Trump's mind, he IS America.

So I don't think it would be as easy to demonstrate as you think.

Yancey Ward said...

Wow, Tim Smith- for your reply to make any sense whatsoever, the man running onto the stage trying to shoot Biden would have to be......Donald Trump!

Look, you dumb fuck- I was replying to your statement where you wrote:

"I think you are dangerous to the nation and the latest polls say you are ahead," the latest polls," then pulls out a gun and assassinates Trump live in front of the nation. Can he be prosecuted for it?

I don't know what the fuck you are writing at 11:33 AM. It addresses literally nothing in reply to you. I was very clear that if Joe Biden did what you outlined in the hypothetical that he would be prosecuted after being impeached and removed and that such a sequence of events would be completely consistent with yesterday's ruling which no way makes every action of a President immune from prosecution.

Rusty said...

"So, as I see it, as of yesterday we officially became a totalitarian state. The Constitution we all grew up under and swore to uphold is now just a dusty piece of paper.

The ONLY reason Biden won't be shooting Trump on live TV is that Biden has a code of ethics. That won't be the case for every future president."

Get your eyes checked. Congress has the power to limit what the president can do 2 ways. By passing laws and by impeachment.

"Biden has a code of ethics"
You actually said that. This ranks right up there with "Freder you dumbass". At no time in Joe Bidens career has he ever evidenced anything resembling "ethics".
Where did you come from? How did you find this place?

Zev said...

It's legal in Wisconsin, so in fact you have not lost the "treasured right."

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