Said Joe Rogan, quoted — with video — at "Rogan: It's Scary How Many Democrats Are Willing To Set These Precedents To Go After Trump" (Real Clear Politics).
There were people, at the time of the 2008 election, who were quite serious that Obama must prosecute George W. Bush. I vividly remember having to deal with Jane Hamsher on Bloggingheads. She was quite adamant and insulted me — me, a law professor! — for not agreeing that it was absolutely necessary. And the topic came up because VP candidate Joe Biden had made the news by saying the Obama administration might pursue criminal charges against Bush:
Imagine if Jane and Joe's notion had won the day back in the first Obama administration! Where would we be now?
ADDED: Here's the blog post of mine from just before that Bloggingheads discussion, "Biden says a President Obama might pursue criminal charges against George Bush." I wrote:
Now, this is loose talk from Biden, saying the one thing which, if I believed it, would force me to vote for McCain.
Please follow up with Obama himself, because I'd really like to know. Oh, and when you're asking Obama this question, please needle him with the Eagleton scenario, because that's the way they talk about McCain and Palin, and I like to see good turnabout.
"The Eagleton scenario" = the presidential nominee should get rid of the VP nominee.
The linked article — at The Guardian — said:
"[I]n April, [Obama] vow[ed] that if elected, he would ask his attorney general to initiate a prompt review of Bush-era actions to distinguish between possible "genuine crimes" and "really bad policies".
"[I]f crimes have been committed, they should be investigated," Obama told the Philadelphia Daily News. "You're also right that I would not want my first term consumed by what was perceived on the part of Republicans as a partisan witch hunt, because I think we've got too many problems we've got to solve."
And here's video of Biden making his statement:
Posts
83 comments:
"Where would we be now?"
Fighting the same civil war we'll be fighting in 2035, but earlier.
"If you haven't done anything wrong you have nothing to fear."
"But everything is against the law!"
'Assume the position , motherfucker!"
You could charge Trump with war crimes. You could find some things that he did, especially with bombings.
What bombings? what bombing did TRUMP order?
And the topic came up because VP candidate Joe Biden had made the news by saying the Obama administration might pursue criminal charges against Bush:
what a SURPRISE! Joe Biden wanted to imprisson political opponents!
"Imagine if Jane and Joe's notion had won the day back in the first Obama administration! Where would we be now?"
We would be on the same road we're on now, just a few more years down it.
I can't believe people can be this foolish, but they are. Heaven help us all.
For a second I thought Hamsher was E. Jean Carroll.
What we are seeing is akin to "old money" but in politics: those who didn't create the system and who don't understand the system violate the rules because they have no clue of the consequences. Me see. Me want. Me do.
This can alternatively be treated as: (a) return to primal/primitive thinking per declining education standards, radicals teaching hateful revolutionary politics for 50 years, and social media distractions causing widespread stupidity, or (b) replacing the complex government model of the constitution / representative democracy with a simple and traditional (de facto conservative) government model with tribal / strongman / mob rule.
Complex European and Asian economies rely on complex mental models and the large majority must accept standard "rules of the road." Those societal segments who wish to withdraw will either (a) create mini South African-style enclaves such as blue cities today, or (b) be suppressed over a couple generations by dominant mainstream views. The USA routinely crushed those who disagreed until the 1960s. Now we've got an experiment in developed world techno-anarchy in progress.
Where would we be now? Exactly in the same place we find ourselves: those in power perverting law enforcement to oppress their opponents and engage in election interference.
Back in 2009/2010 or so, when Obamacare was being discussed, I read many pros and cons about the subject and remember that Jane Hamsher -- at least in my opinion -- was a bit more thoughtful about the whole deal than many others on the left. Haven't seen/heard much about her since...
The Uniparty were never going to bring charges against the Bush family. Not just because so many Democrats in the Senate votes for his stupid war, but because the Uniparty couldn't afford to ever face consequences for starting wars.
Luckily, the sheer triviality of the charges against Trump makes ANYTHING he charges Biden, Obama, and their oligarch backers with much more powerful. Sure, the Supreme Court might "graciously" step in around October and bring an end to lawfare. But the longer they wait, the easier it will be for President Trump to run on bringing the judges to heel. By October, he can reject the Supreme Court's advice entirely. Then what larks!
It didn't have to be this way, but the oligarchs have chosen the form of their destructor.
Yah yah- crazy to prosecute political opponents blah blah - Monday (Friday) morning navel gazing now that it is done. Calling for unilateral disarmament for republicans instead of tit for tat is next week’s talking point…
Obama didn’t charge Bush because they were on the same side.
Notice the warmongering didn’t stop under Obama.
The only time they charged someone was when an outsider stepped the warmongering.
Applying Hamsher's own threshold standards of severity (deaths of thousands) and election non-interference (Bush had already served two terms and was not running for office), the Trump prosecution comes no where near the threshold for justifying prosecution Hamsher delineated to Althouse.
By her own standards, Hamsher would have a hard time arguing Trump's prosecution, on balance, does not constitute an abuse of discretion and election interference.
A lot of the Trump Derangement can be tied back to the fact that the left never got over the 2000 election, and fact that 9/11 prevented them from going after Bush. Absent 9/11, they likely would have taken Congress in 2002, impeached Bush, and won the White House in 2004.
Heh. We already do that back-and-forth prosecution in Congress.
For every partisan subcommittee investigation, there shall be an equal and opposite party subcommittee investigation...
Hopefully, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush and John Yoo would still be in jail, and we would have proven to the world that we were serious about, you know, not torturing people.
Oh, btw, my Virus Protection (Acronis), has flagged this as a malicious website. Which I guess might be quite accurate.
Ann, Jane, Dick, George - Ann is by far the smartest of the group. Not sure who is the dumbest.
What ever happened to Jane? She put a pretty face on ugly opinions.
Did Jane ver say what laws she thought they broke?
Love it! Not exact quote, but,,"So, you as a good liberal, think every crime should be prosecuted(?)....or something like that. Well done, Althouse! Now, back to listening
You should probably not visit the site anymore Frederson…for your safety and all.
The way it was written, the way it was put in a ledger, it's basically, in most situations, it would have been considered a misdemeanor, but they turned it into a felony
What’s the it? I guess this is why they tried him.
Hamsher's smugness says it all.
Jane’s not a big fan of going after Hillary and Joe though. That’s different you see…
Freder. Just stick to being a dumbass.
Wow, that Jane Hamsher is something, the Happy Jackbooted Fascist. 'Why if they've done nothing wrong, they have nothing to fear'. Nonstop partisanship delivered with a pleasant smile.
@Wince said: ..."Applying Hamsher's own threshold standards of severity (deaths of thousands) and election non-interference ...By her own standards, Hamsher would have a hard time arguing////"
Dear, dear boy, you mean consistency and accountability, when it's inconvenient? How quaint.
**ck me, I had to Captcha 7 pictures ! Do I get a Gold star?
Althouse wrote, "(And I was the kind of person who voted for Jimmy Carter in 1980... and Mondale and Dukakis and Bill Clinton, twice, and Al Gore.)"
...like the confession of a redeemed sinner.
Then, Freder, mask up and stand back from the screen 6 feet.
"Imagine if, when Obama got into office, he decided to prosecute Dick Cheney and George Bush for crimes against humanity."
Oh we can do better than that.
Imagine if Trump had done that to Obama.
"(And I was the kind of person who voted for Jimmy Carter in 1980... and Mondale and Dukakis and Bill Clinton, twice, and Al Gore.)"
We all make mistakes for 40 years.
Re: The linked blog post from 2008
Althouse wrote: "Racist. Sexist."
How unusual. Althouse so seldom rises to snap at such miserable bait.
I was amused by how Meade soothed her resentment with one clever pun.
I like Althouse's reaction. Obama is his usual OTOH and OTOH guy, having it both ways so viewers can see whatever they want in his word soup. But really, that was before inaugaration upon which he found that he and Bush were really on the same team. Later still they would team up with Clinto to oppose the Bad Orange Dude, as all good Uniparty Members must, of course.
I fear Space Mountain is correct in his diagnoses, because the rhetoric along with the lawfare has been turned past eleven. We are definitely in post-Spinal Tap territory now. God help the Republic.
**ck me, I had to Captcha 7 pictures ! Do I get a Gold star?
You can ignore captcha
If they win again in 2024, they still might prosecute Bush and Cheney.
Rotwang's cabana boy writes, "...my Virus Protection (Acronis), has flagged this as a malicious website. Which I guess might be quite accurate."
You guess? Have you forgotten that you comment (a charitable characterization) here?
Freder Frederson said...
Hopefully, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush and John Yoo would still be in jail, and we would have proven to the world that we were serious about, you know, not torturing people.
Oh, btw, my Virus Protection (Acronis), has flagged this as a malicious website. Which I guess might be quite accurate.
Freder obviously missed the part where he is on the same side as the Cheney's now. He was cheering Liz and Dick when they attacked Trump.
And everyone he supports did all the same things. Biden is killing just as many people with his wars as Bush did.
There is a reason Obama's, Clinton's and Biden's are so friendly with the Bushes and Cheney's.
Freder is really just a stupid person who doesn't even know what he is being told to say.
Speaking of Trump doctrev says: "By October, he can reject the Supreme Court's advice entirely.". That precedent has already been set, see Joe Biden and student loan debt, so maybe he doesn't have to wait until October.
Can Jane Hamsher be prosecuted for being an insufferable bitch?
Has anyone checked in on her lately?
The pressure is building. Someone, something is going to light the fuse. Then we'll be back as apes before the monolith. But armed with better weaponry.
Here's hoping SCOTUS rules against Executive immunity. Light that match!
"**ck me, I had to Captcha 7 pictures ! Do I get a Gold star?"
Seriously? You're doing the Captchas? You get the dunce cap. (Sorry)
Where would we be now?
We would have an even more powerful deep state. The Covid lockdowns, for example, would have been even more stringent. A president has to consider his reelection before doing anything that would be too upsetting to too many people. Not so for the entrenched, unaccountable deep state.
I read the Manchester bio of MacArthur. When he became "Viceroy" of Japan, the New Deal people back in Washington pressured him to prosecute Japanese war criminals and they especially wanted to include the Emperor. MacArthur resisted these pressures. He was quite lenient. I believe fewer than a dozen Japanese were hanged for war crimes. The Japanese were no slouches when it came to atrocities but only a very small fraction were ever held accountable for their crimes. The doctor who performed experimental operations on American airmen (without anesthesia) only had to do a few years in jail. He later became head of the Japanese Red Cross.....Was justice served? Probably not, but the American occupation was a success. MacArthur had more wisdom than the New Deal liberals.....Anyway, when the long arc of history bends far enough, it eventually stabs you in the ass. I don't think future historians will look upon Curtis LeMay with more esteem than the Emperor of Japan.
Theyve kept their eyes on the prize.
Tyranny. But the nice kind of tyranny.
Imagine if Jane and Joe's notion had won the day back in the first Obama administration! Where would we be now?
One possibility is that by now maybe moderate, well-informed, women would have figured out that basing their vote on the issue of abortion and abortion alone contributed to the problem.
The fact that FJB had that thought then shows he is the inspiration behind lawfare now.
The first Iraq war started during the first Bush administration, sustained and supplemented with other wars during the Clinton administration, ended during the second Bush administration, then shared responsibility and funded through the Obama administration along with a world ethnic Spring series from Tripoli to Kiev and other places Obama/Biden didn't have time to visit... pledge allegiance to the albinophobic flag.
As I remember it, many on the left were outraged that the intelligence people had slanted the info on Iraq's pursuit of nuclear weapons. They thought that a lot of it was disinformation, and that those intelligence officials should be held accountable. I guess that opinion has changed. I think that because of their services (i.e. lies) to the country during the Trump Presidency and when he later ran for re-election, the intelligence people should be absolved of all blame. It took a lot of courage for them to come right out and say that Hunter's laptop was probably Russian disinformation. They really redeemed themselves by doing that.
Following the Obama election, did Hamsher actually stand outside the White House with torches and pitchforks like she said she would if Cheney/Bush weren't prosecuted? Wouldn't that have been more of an insurrection than Jan. 6th? Does anyone on the left say anything that they really mean? Aren't they the idiots who take everything Trump says literally?
Following the Obama election, did Hamsher actually stand outside the White House with torches and pitchforks like she said she would if Cheney/Bush weren't prosecuted? Wouldn't that have been more of an insurrection than Jan. 6th? Does anyone on the left say anything that they really mean? Aren't they the idiots who take everything Trump says literally?
"I was amused by how Meade soothed her resentment with one clever pun."
1. You're way overestimating my "resentment." I was just flicking away some random stupidness.
2. The amusingness of Meade is more amusing if you know that this was at a time when I had never even met him. He was just one of the commenters.
Has there been a campaign to bring back "our girls" from Afghanistan... and the billions of dollars in state of the art military parting gifts?
Stand with the Uyghur slaves in China and occupied Tibet.
Human rites. #HateLovesAbortion
I watched more of that video. It was interesting: Sarah Palin was not yet getting destroyed in the press. She was creating great excitement and overshadowing not just McCain but Obama. That was a moment.
Hamsher had gone to the convention and was struck by the strong impression Palin made. There was a lot of uncertainty about what this was going to mean.
"Imagine if Jane and Joe's notion had won the day back in the first Obama administration! Where would we be now?".
Well, at least there wouldn't have been a second Obama administration.
So, did she wave her pitchfork? Is there video?
The amusingness of Meade is more amusing if you know that this was at a time when I had never even met him. He was just one of the commenters.
What an interesting arc... to be able to go back to a time when you knew of your future spouse, trace the development of getting to know him, and then knowing that you're now well into sharing a life with him. I had the same general storyline (knew of my husband while I was married to someone else, got to know him after my divorce, have been married for a while lot of years now), but I don't have daily documentation of it.
When McCain picked Palin, when I Heard her speak, I remember explaining to me husband, "He just won!"
Was I ever wrong.
Thank goodness there are people whose temperaments take them into politics (at least I think politics is better than the alternatives). I could never do it.
We took our grandkids (girl 7 and boy 10) to see Palin in a packed stadium in LA pre-convention. It was electric, even the LA chapter of NOW was excited. All the excitement left McCain's campaign after the panic, but he had already sidelined Palin with that horrible handler who lives on MSNBC trashing Republicans now.
It's amazing that "liberals" will talk about jailing their political opponents like this then, what? They go somewhere to have the ternal sunshine treatment? Trump had more sense than that. He even said during COVID, "I don't have the authority to order lockdowns, I can only suggest them and it's up to governors." Sure he called to lobby for more than he admits now, but he recognized Constitutional restraints that Biden is blithely blowing through, while making jokes about ignoring SCOTUS rulings.
Jane Hamster… now there’s a blast from the ideological past.
What bombings? what bombing did TRUMP order?
Trump very effectively (after years of dithering by Obama) freed the military to dispatch ISIS to the nether realm. No doubt somebody like Freder could (and would) vociferously argue that that makes Trump a despicable “war criminal.”
"Was I ever wrong."
The financial panic in September sunk any hope McCain had of winning in 2008 and, in retrospect, even those odds were probably not even- after 8 years of Bush and the wars the electorate was ready to change the party in the White House.
and its striking how that happened 60 days before an election that has never happened before look up panics going back 200 years,
mccain collaborated with schmidt and wallace, the jones memo to deep six the campaign, was she too earnest I suppose to believe there was something worth fighting for,
"Then we'll be back as apes before the monolith. But armed with better weaponry."
We're always apes before the monolith. Modern civilization is window dressing, and it's prima fascia when you've been places I've been and seen shit I've seen. Civilization might be window dressing, but it's very important window dressing, and the quality of its veneer varies significantly from place to place. Maintaining the quality of our civilization's veneer is very important - something we're currently failing at - and the dividing line between being a first-world USA and a third-world Afghanistan is much thinner than people think.
And I was the kind of person who voted for Jimmy Carter in 1980... and Mondale and Dukakis and Bill Clinton, twice, and Al Gore.
And McGovern, as you added yourself — a man who famously could not even successfully operate a bed & breakfast once he left politics. Moreover since the old post to which you linked you’ve since told us that you voted for Obama in 2008 and Hillary Clinton in 2016. Professor, as far as I can tell you have been a lower information voter than you probably realize, and probably since before your college days. Did you not see the inherent elitism of 21st century Democrats because you were too closely allied with them? Did you stick with them because you secretly enjoyed the neverending culture wars? The totalitarianism of forging crimes out of political differences that Hamsher, Biden, and Obama articulated so plainly, and which bothered you at the time, how did you not see that the Left always moves towards totalitarianism?
I’m asking these questions honestly, Althouse, and I hope you treat them that way — and that you carefully contemplate both the questions and your answers.
Big Mike, you might want to calm yourself, friend. You’re coming across in a sort of Al Gore Gets In W’s Space And Demands “Whatabout Norwood—Dingel” way. If I may white knight everyone’s favorite Blogger for a quick minute… try being a Big Mike the size of a small mike. Brush your teeth, wash your hands, give her her space.
Thanks and make it a good day, brother 😎.
I remember the good old days when Biden was going to be the great uniter, the adult in the room that would bring the country together.
The same was said of Obama and racial strife.
What a fucking joke.
Socialists always show their true colors.
Ann has six blog postings today, each of which can be interpreted as supporting Trump, including this one, which she may be using to say she will be voting for Trump, much like she would have voted for McCain if Obama had said he would use his presidency to prosecute Bush, Cheney et al.
They hated Bush and Cheney back then, but now I have realized that Dems were just mad that it wasn't THEIR side who was doing the "bad" things that Bush and Cheney were doing.
yes I never bought that bag of magic beans,
his instincts have always been wrong, since voting against the transalaskan pipeline to pushing for partition of iraq,
@Original Mike said: Seriously? You're doing the Captchas? You get the dunce cap. (Sorry)"
Ha ha ! Intelligence test Fail !
the Aggie Salute
I came back to the post and watched the last video of Biden from 2008. It was eye opening. So many white people in the audience. Even the old boomer liberal questioner looks out of place. I can't imagine a Democratic town hall ever looking like that again.
Did you not see the inherent elitism of 21st century Democrats because you were too closely allied with them?
The days of "the Left is always looking for heretics, the Right is always looking for converts" seem very long ago now. We've got ourselves at least a partial convert here, and a valuable one; why not at least try to act happy?
"commit murder" Althouse said with a chuckle when asked what a president might do to warrant prosecution. Obama killing a US citizen with a drone strike arguably meets that threshold. I still do not think that Trump should have (or should in the future) gone after Obama for this.
Obama could have put on master class on lawfare being alumnus/graduate from Columbia/Harvard.
It could have been eye opening into fundamental transformation of USA
wild chicken said...
"For every partisan subcommittee investigation, there shall be an equal and opposite party subcommittee investigation...
An excellent idea. President, VP, cabinet, representatives and senators and heads of the alphabet agencies- let's have an investigation of every one of them similar in depth to what Trump has been subjected to. Democrats can appoint investigators for Republicans while Republicans will appoint investigators for Democrats. Since the Democrats have recently decided that statutes of limitation are irrelevant, those will be waived.
Let the games begin.
was struck by the strong impression Palin made. There was a lot of uncertainty about what this was going to mean.
Some people were certain--she had to be destroyed posthaste.
Who was handling Biden in 2008? The same people as now? I wonder if the idea was his (when he was still firing on all four cylinders) or from office bull sessions.
"Imagine if, when Obama got into office, he decided to prosecute Dick Cheney and George Bush for crimes against humanity."
He should have. It was certainly warranted. Yet, why even imagine Obama having any faint desire to do that. He continued the Bush/Cheney criminal wars into his two terms, and he even increased the numbers of drone bombings ten-fold over his predecessors. Obama was different only in that he spoke a soothing rhetoric, lending a deceptive and more palatable image to the murderous actions of the US state. He belongs in the docket no less than Bush/Cheney, Clinton, Poppa Bush, etc., etc.
Oh, btw, my Virus Protection (Acronis), has flagged this as a malicious website. Which I guess might be quite accurate.
Does your virus protection force you to visit such sites, too?
He was cheering Liz and Dick when they attacked Trump.
You are lying again. Provide a link where I have cheered either Liz or Dick. Liz actually defended her father's torture regime. Criticism of Trump does not even come close to making up for that.
"Where would we be now?"
Somewhere that death squads lurk.
Freder Frederson said...
He was cheering Liz and Dick when they attacked Trump.
You are lying again. Provide a link where I have cheered either Liz or Dick. Liz actually defended her father's torture regime. Criticism of Trump does not even come close to making up for that.
The cracks are showing.
You are just stupid and dishonest.
It must be humiliating when you realized you are the warmonger now supporting torture and war crimes.
You might have ask if Obama should have been prosecuted for targeting and killing Americans during the war on terror. Some think that is a crime. With these people it's usually, whose bull is being gored.
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