Seinfeld agreed, in the interview, with Weiss’ assertion that part of the guiding philosophy of the ’60s-set Unfrosted—which contains, among other things, a scene that is literally Mad Men fan fiction, complete with Jon Hamm and John Slattery reprising their parts—was a return to that age of “style.” “I miss a dominant masculinity,” Seinfeld said, being careful, admittedly, to note that he doesn’t consider himself part of the list of “real men” he admires. (Including JFK, Muhammad Ali, Sean Connery, and, apparently, Howard Cosell.) “Yeah, I get the toxic thing,” he said with deliberate dismissiveness. “But I still like a real man.”
Wait. Here's a transcript of the conversation at The Free Press. The masculinity business is at the very end of this edited transcript:
BW: As I was watching the movie—which takes place in the ’60s—I was thinking about how the thing that was present then that I feel like isn’t now is a sense of one conversation. A common culture. Is this part of your own nostalgia for a time that feels like another planet?
Oh! Weiss's prompt wasn't about "Mad Men." It was about a "common culture" when everyone was watching the same few TV shows.
JS: Of course. But there’s another element there that I think is the key element, and that is an agreed-upon hierarchy, which I think is absolutely vaporized in today’s moment. We have no sense of hierarchy. And as humans, we don’t really feel comfortable like that. So, that is part of what makes that moment attractive, looking back. And the other thing is, as a man—can I say that?
BW: Are you? I didn’t ask your pronouns.
JS: Well, I always wanted to be a real man. I never made it. But I really thought when I was in that era—it was JFK, it was Muhammad Ali, it was Sean Connery, Howard Cosell—that’s a real man. I want to be like that someday. But I never really grew up. I mean, you don’t want to grow up, as a comedian, because it’s a childish pursuit. But I miss a dominant masculinity. Yeah, I get the toxic thing, I get it. But still, I like a real man.
Yeah, I don't think that's a joke, but perhaps, as a comedian, he has reason to prefer a hierarchical system with dominant males to joke about. He's the eternal child, making fun of the serious people who are running things and frustrating and annoying him. And the audience loves the jokes, because they challenge authority and no one cares if their feelings are hurt.
But he does also say he aspires to grow up into the role of dominant male. Perhaps he's already in it in his family. And it's interesting, the 4 men he choose as the exemplars of dominant masculinity — JFK, Muhammad Ali, Sean Connery, and Howard Cosell. Very 60s. Jerry was born in 1954. Maybe you were too. What does that tetrad mean to you — JFK, Ali, Connery, and Cosell? The presence of Cosell makes it difficult....
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56 comments:
Real men want to build things.
Women generally want make work jobs and comfort.
The real conflict here is between people who produce and do things that are hard and important vs. the people who have comfortable sinecures that produce things of dubious value.
Real men don't work in HR.
Re Cosell as a dominant male in JerryWorld, it's all about the trousers. Cosell would never be seen in short pants. It was always trousers. Pontoon boat ride in the Keys? Trousers. Walking on the beach? Trousers.
And wherever he was was the place to be. "Hello again everyone this is Howard Cosell . . ."
"Re Cosell as a dominant male in JerryWorld, it's all about the trousers. Cosell would never be seen in short pants. It was always trousers...."
Muhammad Ali was a man in shorts.
It really is a good interview, worth watching/listening to the whole thing.
His Comedians in Cars getting Coffee is also really good, though you have to be a little selective on his guests.
"Cosell said of himself, "Arrogant, pompous, obnoxious, vain, cruel, verbose, a showoff. There's no question that I'm all of those things." His blustery, cocksure personality ensured that this larger-than-life sports commentator remains as well known today as many of the athletes he covered. His keen insights, ability to see past the glitz, and direct manner earned him widespread respect and admiration. Above all, one-of-a-kind Howard Cosell was entertaining."
I Never Played The Game(Audiobook)
Ali was in trunks.
The disappearance of "common culture" isn't just that we were all watching the same few TV shows or listening to the same music. It's also the decline of local journalism, where everyone was on the same page, figuratively speaking, about what was going on in their communities. The loss of shared experience makes the job of being a comedian much harder, in addition to the need to self-censor because of audience sensitivities. It all kind of takes the fun out of being funny.
Did Ali ever wear a hairpiece?
The rise of social media in the last decade was in my mind was an attempt by those in power to establish again a “common culture” and squash the dissenting views that suddenly had a voice thanks to the internet.
Real men aren't gynophobic narcissistic bullies with body dismorphia and a hormonal addiction.
Blogger Achilles said...
Real men want to build things.
Women generally want make work jobs and comfort.
Seinfeld is a schlubby New York Jew.
He's a taller Woody Allen.
He's a comedian, famously self-loathing.
'Muhammad Ali was a man in shorts.'
Who could kick your ass...makes a difference.
Real men aren't whining crying victims preaching gloom doom and hatred while kvetching about the good old days because they are old fat insane and impotent today.
Ali dances and the audience applauds
Though he's bathed in sweat, he hasn't lost his style
Ali, don't you go downtown
You gave away another round for free, woah
-- Billy Joel, 'Zanzibar'
Now if Trump had Sterling/Cooper create and energize his campaign, Trump would be president for life since S/C would do such a great plan for the campaign that the 22d Amendment would be repealed.
Roger Cooper was just so terrific,
https://www.rollingstone.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/rs-16823-rectangle.jpg
I watched the whole interview last night as I was interested in Jerry after the Duke commencement speech and the "Poptarts" movie. (The movie is very good.)
1. Bari Weiss had to work into the interview that she watched the movie with her wife. Not relevant. Are they both vegans?
2. Bari got Jerry to cry about his recent trip to Israel. Didn't expect that.
3. Jerry loved it when the liberal culture was dominant.
4. Jerry made an excellent comment about comedians. They can strip something down to its essence. At least the good ones can.
Howard said...
Real men aren't gynophobic narcissistic bullies with body dismorphia and a hormonal addiction.
Were you trying to make a point with that comment?
JFK, it was Muhammad Ali, it was Sean Connery, Howard Cosell
A philanderer, a boxer, an actor, and who? Not that there's anything wrong with them.
There is something wrong with a Jerry Seinfeld saying he likes "a real man", when asked about his pronouns? I submit that those complaining about Seinfeld's response to the question need not lecture me on not "accepting other pronouns", because I see the one-way street and choose not to take it.
You need help, Achilles.
BarrySanders20 said...
Re Cosell as a dominant male in JerryWorld, it's all about the trousers. Cosell would never be seen in short pants. It was always trousers. Pontoon boat ride in the Keys? Trousers. Walking on the beach? Trousers.
Careful, the same things could be said about Richard Nixon!
"What does that tetrad mean to you — JFK, Ali, Connery, and Cosell? The presence of Cosell makes it difficult...."
If they are the epitome of masculine dominance, aren't they more than a tetrad, a tetrarchy?
Of all the available tetrarchs, these four must have been selected to suit Seinfeld's sense of the ridiculous. Ignoring reality, the MD quartet categorizes thusly:
1) The phallus as politics
2) The phallus as politics by other means
3) Truculence muscular
4) Truculence verbal
Real masculine dominance makes stuff, Seinfled's comedy version justs spins its wheels. What's funnier, a McLaren Artura zipping down the road or a McLaren Artura stuck in the mud?
Howard said...
Real men aren't whining crying victims preaching gloom doom and hatred while kvetching about the good old days because they are old fat insane and impotent today.
Howard is just mad that we haven't driven the fascists out of power by force yet it seems.
We do want it to go down peacefully by election though.
It will be interesting to see how hard the fascists resist.
Cosell’s self-description could probably fit Trump, too. New Yorkers!
Howard said...
You need help, Achilles.
When you look to the right on the bell curve you can see about 20 points.
Everything past that looks like insanity.
You just aren't very smart Howard.
Achilles writes, Were you trying to make a point with that comment?
Howard thinks he's cozying up to Althouse.
Hold the butter, Howard. She's not a bag of popcorn.
n.n said...
JFK, it was Muhammad Ali, it was Sean Connery, Howard Cosell
A philanderer, a boxer, an actor, and who? Not that there's anything wrong with them.
There is some evidence that JFK was turning against the deep state and was during the second part of his term growing into the presidency.
I think he was installed the same way that Joe was but turned out to be too assertive and possibly had some redeeming qualities.
And it is all but admitted now that our government at some level was involved in killing him.
All four were confident, competent and dominant in their chosen professions.
Quaestor said...
Achilles writes, Were you trying to make a point with that comment?
Howard thinks he's cozying up to Althouse.
Hold the butter, Howard. She's not a bag of popcorn.
Actually, she is deleting some of my comments.
Cosell was pretty tall. Not much shorter than Ali.
I never thought of him as an Alpha Male but size wise he holds up well against the athletes he interviewed.
That Meme photo with Cossell, OJ Simpson, and Bruce Jenner is funny. And Cossell is about the same size as those two.
'1. Bari Weiss had to work into the interview that she watched the movie with her wife. Not relevant. Are they both vegans?'
How do you know someone's a lesbian?
They'll tell you.
Howard said...
You need help, Achilles.
You can't actually engage on an intellectual level with me so you resort to weak pejoratives.
You can't actually engage with several people here so you mollify your inadequacy by turning into a troll.
You can tell Jerry is an american jewish boomer from that list and was trying to hit all the required notes. He should go into politics.
Lets see: Howard Cosell the Jewish leftwing sportscaster, ALi - the boxer and black hero to the antiwar Left, JFK - the Catholic liberal President, and Sean Connery the British actor aka James Bond. Protestant, Catholic, Jew, Muslim.
Anyway, the reason pop culture sucks is because the Left has taken it over and instead of targeting the "Product" to the WHite majority, its still tryng to attack and subvert the White majority and Western values. But western values were subverted and destroyed a long time ago. When "the counter-culture" destroys the culture, it has nothing more to say. All thats left is money making and squabbling over which in-power minority is being "represented".
Ok, I was around in the Sixties. I would say that JFK and Sean Connery were "real men." To me, Howard Cosell was a buffoon. And Ali was a fighter, a winner, but graceful - and mouthy in an amusing way. I don't mean "like a woman," I mean another kind of man than Sean Connery.
Achilles said
"Women generally want make work jobs and comfort.
The real conflict here is between people who produce and do things that are hard and important vs. the people who have comfortable sinecures that produce things of dubious value."
What women uniquely "produce" is babies. Of dubious value? Speak for yourself, big fella.
By the 3 minute mark, when they started talking about the tradition of Jewish humor, I thought, this is one of those vanilla interviews. Jerry is not going to say anything interesting here. I stopped watching it.
The video title didn't help either.
YouTube: Jerry Seinfeld on the Rules of Comedy—and Life
Scene from and imaginary Jerry Seinfeld produced Howard Cosell biopic:
[Interior; the Cosell's bedroom.]
Howard: What're those?
Emmy: They're Bermudas. I thought they might be cool for the beach when we go to Miami.
Howard: Return 'em!
Emmy: Howard! They're just short pants!
Howard: Emmy! A toupee does not go with short pants! And I'm not leaving the rug at home!
'YouTube: Jerry Seinfeld on the Rules of Comedy—and Life'
Rule 1: Have Larry David write your show...
Sounds to me like he misses "real men" being generally perceived as dominant over other men.
As opposed to men being recognized as dominant over women.
I think a lot of people are taking his phrase "dominant masculinity" to mean the latter.
wildswan said...
What women uniquely "produce" is babies. Of dubious value? Speak for yourself, big fella.
I agree with you here.
Modern women are being driven away from this option to go into "careers" now. It is much easier to be a Government functionary or a DEI advocate at a university than to be a mother.
MSOM said...
Sounds to me like he misses "real men" being generally perceived as dominant over other men.
As opposed to men being recognized as dominant over women.
I think a lot of people are taking his phrase "dominant masculinity" to mean the latter.
Male structures are hierarchical. Female structures are flat.
This has a lot to do with men's world being biologically centered around responsibilities and women's world biologically centered around relationships.
The issues arise when you try to merge these two paradigms. It an be done but there is a reason those were the dominant social structures formed.
"Rule 1: Have Larry David write your show.."
I think the show got better in later seasons, and he had left I guess around season 7.
The key is have really funny people write the show. In fact, what he said was his favorite episode, "The Marine Biologist," was written by Ron Hauge and Charlie Rubin.
Though my favorite episode, "The Library" was co-written by Larry David, Seinfeld, and Larry Charles. I mostly like that episode for the library cop, though, who was in one of my favorite scenes in the show.
wildswan said...
Achilles said
"Women generally want make work jobs and comfort.
The real conflict here is between people who produce and do things that are hard and important vs. the people who have comfortable sinecures that produce things of dubious value."
What women uniquely "produce" is babies. Of dubious value? Speak for yourself, big fella.
I agree with what you are saying.
But you know that modern women are being driven away from motherhood and towards jobs in government bureaucracy or as DEI advocates instead.
It is much harder to be a mother in a committed family raising well adjusted children than it is to she-boss with an HR job.
I posted this response but it is gone so here goes again...
'I think the show got better in later seasons, and he had left I guess around season 7.'
Perhaps. But they had the formula by then.
David sticks to a very strict 30-40 minute story arc that almost never varies.
At this point I could write an episode of 'Curb' that you would think was from David.
I love Jerry Seinfeld.
Well, he introduced the topic as a self-effacing joke. And we all know, as Homer Simpson once averred, that things are funny “cause they’re true.” The true part is Seinfeld misses the masculine era even though he never lived up to that standard. But the thing about that is, he is a masculine man. Standup comedy is supremely masculine.
We were finally able to get some shit done.
There is a Seinfeld episode about this issue. He is in Monks Cafe with George . . . "what are we doing? We're not men . . .
It was a good interview to listen to (or watch). Jerry really has become a student of comedy, and is now, more or less, the senior expert on it. This interview is housed in the reality that is his worldview- that of a comedian. Not to be dismissed by that, but to be kept in mind. The way he views things is from that comedic point of view that very few have 24/7 like he does.
While he was talking about real men- and I get his message as it's clear that Western Civilization does have a seious shortage of real men- he was talking about a hierarchy of leadership. That's what's missing.
Real men build things, take greater risks, fail, get up and continue to fight. Real men bear the brunt of the mistakes- both their own and society's. Real men are comfortable in their own skin, and don't really care about the whispers on the side, or a post on Instagram. Real men drag civilization, kicking and screaming, into the future.
We have a lack of this. And it's painful to watch.
But more than that, he mentions that "We have no sense of hierarchy. And as humans, we don’t really feel comfortable like that." And I agree with this. We like to think of ourselves as individuals, and yes, we are. But we are also, as a species, more inclined to move forward with some guidance, some leadership. Someone who can, at times, herd the chickens. And while men historically have been the ones, we are also missing the strong women leaders. No...I don't mean a vacuous windbag like a Hillary Clinton, or a head of lettuce like Kamala Harris. I mean a strong leader like a Jeane Kirkpatrick. A Margaret Thatcher. A Margaret Chase Smith.
We need great, or at least better leadership from both our men and women. We won't get that until we can get our own heads out of our own asses and quit voting in the most mediocre among us.
PS- the entire idea of 'toxic masculinity' was brought to us by whom? Who did we take that particular direction from?
Ali in shorts - he was in uniform. Like the British Eighth Army in North Africa.
Seinfeld has fuck you money.
I always though of JFK as a pantywaist, but I can't square that with the significant exceptions of his wartime service and opposition to communism. So, he had the personality of a pantywaist.
I doubt Jerry Seinfeld is dumb enough to say what he really thinks, but it's nice that he uses his significant clout to dial in a modest protest here and there.
Seinfeld grew up and Larry David never did.
Maybe he included Cosell because both Jewish, And the way their distinctive voices are imitated by others bears similarity.
There is substantial confusion in this thread around the concepts of male dominance, hierarchy and leadership. While they touch upon one another, they do not necessarily overlap in any substantial manner. Men seek dominance because they are competitive in for reasons we all understand, they do well in clearly understood hierarchies, because most men understand they are most efficient in teams, and they follow leaders because good leaders provide goals and examples of excellence as well as minimizing conflict in hierarchies. Male dominance by itself is a minor thing, pushed beyond its real significance to be a poor stand in for other things that, although predominately found in the arenas of men, are less gendered.
One of things that is now different from the 60's was that almost every adult male we interacted with had been in the armed forces.
"Seinfeld is a schlubby New York Jew."
What makes you perceive him as "schlubby?" He appears to be someone who, even when dressing casually, takes pains to look tidy and well put together.
Does anyone talk about the absolute emptiness of the comedy stylings prevalent in the Seinfeld show? Seinfeld yearns for meaning and structure after celebrating and participating in the destruction of same.
Nobody talks about the cool sweaters worn on the Cosby show nowadays, either.
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