At the heart of the government’s case... is that TikTok is the beating heart of a social-media industrial complex that mines our data and uses them to manipulate our behavior....why, if the government believes this is true, should anyone have access to these tools?...
One analysis of TikTok’s U.S. market values the app at $100 billion—a sum that rather quickly narrows down the field of buyers....
[A]s we’ve seen from Elon Musk’s purchase of Twitter, putting the fate of a social-media platform into the hands of a few highly motivated individuals can quickly turn into a nightmare. A Muskian ideological purchase would mean a set of owners manipulating the app as part of an extended political project, perhaps even one that works against the interests of the United States—almost exactly what lawmakers fear China might be doing. There is, too, the ironic possibility that any outside investors with enough money to purchase the app might themselves have ties to China, as Musk himself does through Tesla. In this scenario, a sale might end up merely providing the CPC with a helpful veneer of plausible deniability.
There is also the Trump factor. The law gives the sitting president broad authority to judge a worthy buyer, and it gives ByteDance 270 days to find a suitor.... [T]here are 194 days until the next election and some 270 days until the next president is sworn into office. It stands to reason that Biden’s qualified buyer might be different from one selected by Donald Trump.... Regardless of who is president at the time, this is a lot of authority to grant to one partisan authority....
And then there's this over at Reuters: "Exclusive: ByteDance prefers TikTok shutdown in US if legal options fail, sources say." That should be understood in the context of shaping the facts relevant to the legal challenge.
TikTok's CEO Shou Zi Chew said on Wednesday the social media company expects to win a legal challenge to block legislation signed into law by President Joe Biden that he said would ban its popular short video app used by 170 million Americans.
And "TikTok CEO expects to defeat US ban: 'We aren't going anywhere'" ("The facts and the Constitution are on our side").
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49 comments:
X is a "nightmare"? Because people can speak freely on it? Lmao
I’ve said all along that my primary concern about TikTok is their data harvesting, and the ties to China simply exacerbate that concern. I don’t think any of these apps should be legally allowed to harvest user data, and until Congress addresses that concern, whatever flaws exist in TikTok are beside the point. Why not just regulate how social media apps utilize user data… and then, when TikTok or any other social media app fails to comply you could pursue them legally for that.
Furthermore, I don’t see why TikTok shutting down is any great loss. The format has already been copied by Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and probably others. If TikTok goes away, some other app will offer the same product and take over. Does anyone seriously mourn the loss of MySpace?
It is the same useless journalist garbage. Musk is bad, you just have to accept it. We know Meta is owned by Zucker, and the platformed was used to manipulate the last two Presidential elections (after all, the only Russians accused of election interference did so by buying Facebook Ads). Musk exposed the US government's manipulation of Twitter to lie about a pandemic, yet Musk is the bad guy. When you start with this level of garbage, debating the merits of the rest of the story is difficult.
The only nugget is that the ban is likely unconstitutional. Generally, I agree with this. However, at what point does free speech expand to allowing other countries to say what they want in the United States? I don't recall that being what the First Amendment protects. The First Amendment does protect Americans, such as Musk and Zucker, saying what they will. The argument is TikTok is just a medium to allow other Americans to speak, and I think that is strong. However, like Facebook, like Twitter now X, and YouTube, etc...; TikTok curates speech and hides how it is done. Before you think, well that's good enough to ban it; what do you think the ultimate remedy is going to be? This argument lends itself to the notion that the only way to have open debate is for the government to control that debate by allowing certain medium and banning others.
Why is Biden's administration still on it if they banned it?? Seems Progressives always pass laws for others that THEY don't follow themselves.
[A]s we’ve seen from Elon Musk’s purchase of Twitter, putting the fate of a social-media platform into the hands of a few highly motivated individuals can quickly turn into a nightmare.
Unless one is NOT a member of the fascist pro-censorship elite like Warzel and n that case Musk's moves have been welcome. By the way, Charlie, since you casually tossed out the phrase, "putting the fate of a social-media platform into the hands of a few highly motivated individuals," whom exactly do you think controls Meta or Google? Ae they not also a few highly motivated individuals? Do you not realize us plebes are tired of the cooperation between and among those platforms and the State Censorship-Industrial Complex?
The point is to deny China's CCP the direct propaganda pipeline into the minds of the youth of America and the reverse flow of sensitive private data of those users back to the CCP spy chiefs who run Bytedance. China has no Constitutional right to our data, nor to our markets. Why is the Left so paranoid about Putin yet so willing to simp for China?
Wasn't Musk's purchase of Twitter the opposite of an "ideological purchase"?
Twitter was in the hands of fascists before who used it as an ideological weapon to restrict and shape speech to promote fascism.
Musk has, to a great extent, opened it up
John Henry
Our government used Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube to manipulate the behavior of Americans during COVID. Lockdowns...poison vaccines...stupid masks... They even used it to manipulate the 2020 election (censoring Hunter Biden laptop story).
Now Tik-Tok is the problem? Such bullshit.
The government doesn't like point to point, or direct communication among citizens. Especially when you don't have to go through propaganda rags like the NYTs to get your message out. Trump proved that with Twitter in 2016.
They want full hub and spoke control, but still want to call it free speech. Thank God for Elon Musk. Imagine how deep down the rabbit hole we would be if he didn't buy Twitter.
A]s we’ve seen from Elon Musk’s purchase of Twitter, putting the fate of a social-media platform into the hands of a few highly motivated individuals can quickly turn into a nightmare
As opposed to other social media platforms who employ large numbers of former officials from the CIA and FBI.
[A]s we’ve seen from Elon Musk’s purchase of Twitter, putting the fate of a social-media platform into the hands of a few highly motivated individuals can quickly turn into a nightmare. A Muskian ideological purchase would mean a set of owners manipulating the app as part of an extended political project, perhaps even one that works against the interests of the United States
You gotta love the insane consistency of liberals. Charlie Warzel is a douchebag, and working against the "interests of the United States" which is made up of its citizens...who are guaranteed free speech. Another self-proclaimed east coast elitist who pretends to support free speech...but only if he approves.
"[A]s we’ve seen from Elon Musk’s purchase of Twitter, putting the fate of a social-media platform into the hands of a few highly motivated individuals can quickly turn into a nightmare."
One person's nightmare is another person's dream.
We are living in a neo-Soviet system where US central planners control the means of media production. The central planners have issues with Musk, Rupert Murdoch, and Trump because they are competitor oligarchs not under full central control nor on the same public team.
Still, if the shoe was on the other foot, the Chinese would ban a US-based TikTok in a flash. They are literal Communists and still firmly enforce central control. They are sarcastically toying with our concept of the First Amendment and sowing division.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Soviet_Union
They want full hub and spoke control, but still want to call it free speech. Thank God for Elon Musk. Imagine how deep down the rabbit hole we would be if he didn't buy Twitter.
Amen.
In a few short years it will be quite obvious why this needed to be done.
It's obvious right now, I would have thought, but until the war begins for real, people want to convince themselves there's nothing to worry about.
I'd like to see the issue of User Data being explored in a whole lot more detail. What information, exactly, are the Chinese data-mining? How is it different to the data-mining being done by the NSA? By Facebook, Google, X? And why are those latter examples OK, but the Chinese example is bad? I'm inclined to believe it is bad, but would like to better understand it.
And speaking of censorship, how is it that the putative buyer of Tik-Tok is something to be approved by the POTUS? Who, by all accounts, should be adding 'Censor-In-Chief' to their title, given the revelations of many independent journalists about the Censorship Industrial Complex, and the studied indifference of this hot-button topic by the Legacy Media. This is the Dept of Transportation deciding which buzzard gets first crack at the roadkill. Talk about a political hot potato - alienating voters by the generation.
The writer fails to make any case that Musk's purchase of Twitter has been 'bad' in any sense of the word. " A Muskian ideological purchase would mean a set of owners manipulating the app as part of an extended political project, perhaps even one that works against the interests of the United States" Well.... is he perhaps referring to all of the social media companies with the exception of Musk? Because that's what I've been reading about for the past year.
I spent over an hour a couple of nights ago flipping through curated videos on a Twitter/X facility similar to TikTok.
It was entirely using my browser. I do NOT have the Twitter/X app.
TikTok makes you switch to its app after one browser view.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
"Shall make no law... " seems pretty broad and inclusive of anyone who wants to say anything in the us. Or any us citizen who wants to say anything outside the us.
John Henry
Piling on, I know, but this just oozes prog bad faith:
"[A]s we’ve seen from Elon Musk’s purchase of Twitter, putting the fate of a social-media platform into the hands of a few highly motivated individuals can quickly turn into a nightmare."
The nightmare of people speaking relatively freely and escaping prog control.
"A Muskian ideological purchase"
The ideology of resisting prog hegemony. Bad, bad Elon.
There is also the Trump factor. The law gives the sitting president broad authority to judge a worthy buyer, and it gives ByteDance 270 days to find a suitor.... [T]here are 194 days until the next election and some 270 days until the next president is sworn into office. It stands to reason that Biden’s qualified buyer might be different from one selected by Donald Trump....
Of course, the House, the Senate, and Biden (or whoever is pulling his strings) were plainly aware of this fact when they went ahead and enacted this statute.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
"Shall make no law... " seems pretty broad and inclusive of anyone who wants to say anything in the us. Or any us citizen who wants to say anything outside the us.
I am not sure that this law "abridges the freedom of speech." It is content-neutral, and there are myriad other forums by which a person can speak. The Bill of Rights has never been construed as requiring the government to create sources through which its citizens can speak, or to prohibit content-neutral restrictions on media outlets - hence the FCC.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Instead of explicitly banning Tik Tok shouldn't we just pass a reciprocation law as far as Internet access goes? China seems to be a "bit reluctant" to let US sites like Google and such provide unfettered information to their users so maybe we should treat Tik Tok the same.
What the Government cannot control, it must ban. Unfortunately for them, they've not yet found a way to ban Twitter, but I'm sure the people pulling Biden's strings are contemplating that when they're not screwing up the economy.
The platforms that haven't consented to be sister wives of the regime are bad. Bad!
There must be some arranged marriages...for their own good.
FTA: "[A]s we’ve seen from Elon Musk’s purchase of Twitter, putting the fate of a social-media platform into the hands of a few highly motivated (sic) individuals can quickly turn into a nightmare. A Muskian ideological purchase would mean a set of owners manipulating the app as part of an extended political project, perhaps even one that works against the interests of the United States"
Imagine that! So Musk turn the shitshow of the one-think Twitter that banned certain views, censored others, and lied about COVID and Hunter's laptop into a forum of somewhat but not quite perfect free speech platform (with some restrictions - it is not a public square, though Musk's critics used that as a defense to censor or ban people on Twitter - and then, did a 180, and used that argument saying Musk's X IS a public square and everyone (on the Left, at least) can say what they want!), and _that_ is a "nightmare"???
Those on the Left are in support of "progressive owners" controlling and manipulating a extended political project that works FOR the interests on the United States. Now... I wonder.... who gets to decide what the definition of "the interests of the United States" is. Of course! Any construction by the Right is gotta be _disinformation_ so that just leaves the Left to be the author.
We, on the Right, no longer allow those on the Left who are disingenuous (as Rich is) or just plain stupid (in the case of Inga, Vicki from Pissadena, or, do I even have to mention, Chuckie baby?) to piss on our leg and tell us it's raining.
“At the heart of the government’s case... is that TikTok is the beating heart of a social-media industrial complex that mines our data and uses them to manipulate our behavior....why, if the government believes this is true, should anyone have access to these tools?...”
So the CCP is reading my grocery lists and using them to manipulate my behavior. Hmm…I might feel more terrified if the government provided a specific example of how and when they have actually done that.
China is asshoe.
"Furthermore, I don’t see why TikTok shutting down is any great loss. The format has already been copied by Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and probably others."
Totally. Plus those flag waving American companies will comply when the FBI tells them to turn over user data without a fussy warrant or to stealth ban the "misinformation" they don't like! It's a win-win.
At this point, anyone who is more afraid of the Chinese government than our own government is not paying attention. Can the Chinese government audit my taxes or freeze my bank account?
wendybar said...
Why is Biden's administration still on it if they banned it?? Seems Progressives always pass laws for others that THEY don't follow themselves.
4/26/24, 7:19 AM
Exactly this, and any representative or senator who has a presence, or even has the app.
Way back when this "ban" was first proposed, I read that The legislation empowered the government to "ban" any platform that it determined was having an undue influence on U.S.elections. Is that the case now?
The argument was made, then, that the real target of The law was X.
Oh brother. Won't someone think of the children?!?! You know, people will live without tiktok if China decides not to divest. Same as the Millennials live without Myspace and Vine.
How is the US government any different from the Chinese government?
Aggie, just because Zuckerberg sold his soul to the NSA doesn't mean China can have the same access. We have to start somewhere
This discussion is moot because TiKTok is not for sale. The owners clearly stated they will not sell the algorithm that powers it because that algorithm also powers various other apps ByteDance owns. These other apps generate 95% of the revenue; TikTok is very popular but it's just a drop in the bucket in ByteDance's stable. They said they will shut TikTok down. TikTok has not made a dime yet; it's been a money-loser for it's entire existence. ByteDance has stated they feel confident the law will not stand and will be overturned by the courts, but failing that say goodbye to TikTok.
Someone the CIA/NSA control
The part of the bill explicitly referring to TikTok doesn’t really even make a national security argument, it more or less just says TikTok has 270 days that can be extended once by 90 days, while separately here is a process to use for apps that are shown to be specific threats to national security, as shown by a required public report submitted to Congress. Guessing the bill writers know this is a potential legal issue as there is explicit language that makes it clear that TikTok (or other companies owned by ByteDance) can be submitted through the other process if a court finds singling out TikTok to be unconstitutional.
MadisonMan said...
What the Government cannot control, it must ban. Unfortunately for them, they've not yet found a way to ban Twitter, but I'm sure the people pulling Biden's strings are contemplating that when they're not screwing up the economy.
Allowing a Regime approved buyer to control TikTok is another attempt to marginalize Twitter like Zuker's Threads.
[A]s we’ve seen from Elon Musk’s purchase of Twitter, putting the fate of a social-media platform into the hands of a few highly motivated individuals can quickly turn into a nightmare.
You say nightmare, I say beautiful dream. We are not the same.
At this point, anyone who is more afraid of the Chinese government than our own government is not paying attention. Can the Chinese government audit my taxes or freeze my bank account?
This is the most important comment in this thread.
Hence my habit of using Yandex via a VPN for anything I don't wish to share with our monster enemy occupation government. I don't trust Yandex to give me unfiltered information about Putin or Russia or Ukraine, but on those topics I trust the autists on 4Chan more than any search engine, foreign or domestic.
For all other purposes, Yandex is as good as pre-woke Google circa 2007, and certainly won't hand over any of my information to anyone who is in a position to do me personal harm.
"How is the US government any different from the Chinese government?"
Well, one huge difference is that the US government has vastly more power to disrupt your life than the Chinese do.
Scott Adam's take (and I think he's correct) is that the sale is being forced so that the CIA/FBI/et al can put in a back door to capture all the traffic.
They can't monitor it with the Chicoms in charge, but whoever buys it in America will have IC access as non-negotiable...
I'd like to see the issue of User Data being explored in a whole lot more detail. What information, exactly, are the Chinese data-mining? How is it different to the data-mining being done by the NSA? By Facebook, Google, X?
So the CCP is reading my grocery lists and using them to manipulate my behavior. Hmm…I might feel more terrified if the government provided a specific example of how and when they have actually done that.
Y’all need to Google “keylogger” to refresh your knowledge. Since I’ve explained it here in detail a few times I’ll skip the definition this time and skip right to “what’s the diff?” part. The difference is that keylogger is embedded in your device when you download TikTok and stays there even if you delete the app. It encrypts and sends back to China your passwords and GPS for a start.
Keep in mind China is clear about being at war with the USA already, economic now (information warfare) and kinetic later. Just because they haven’t yet taken control of the devices for which they have passcodes does not man they won’t at an opportune time. Maybe the AI version of you will start sending threats to the President of the USA, or access our power grid and disable stuff, or any number of things. Yes China is asshole. But China is patient as well. This is the reason that even devices that have TT are banned from the WH and Congress property and military-related places.
If a USA based competitor did these things, Google and Apple would narc them off, expose the malicious code. Instead their engineers have published technical papers describing the malware in TT but not gone to their buddies in the DNC-Media.
Or they DID go there but the DNC-Media’s NSA puppetmasters hushed them up. If you look hard enough you can confirm what little I have revealed here and see much more for yourself.
My primary concern for any of these apps is the data mining. We lack enough privacy today as it is. I think it would frighten anyone here to know what these companies gather from your data and the inferences that can be made from that data. If you think they don't know what brand of toothpaste you use you are sadly mistaken.
As far as the propaganda value goes, change the players a bit. Say the Gestapo owned Tik Tok. Would we hesitate one minute to expose and stop that app from stripping out our data? Not a chance! Now tell me how China differs from pre-war Germany, say about 1937.
"turn into a nightmare"
I like how it's always a 'scary' word description and no detail as to how. 'Cause they know they'll sound stupidly blatant in intention.
With the tens of billions of dollars being paid for these social-media services, why couldn't the purchasers just make something similar (or better) and draw away users? I realize that Elon Musk bought Twitter, instead of re-creating it on his own, in part so it wouldn't still exist as a competitor to his X service. But I think a lot of TikTok users would be willing to move elsewhere if someone created a new service that reached just as many viewers with an equally large video library (of course, it would need to have an equally addictive algorithm too). Maybe spend a few hundred million to bring over the major influencers and a few big pop stars. Younger users might actually be more willing to try out the new service, now that TikTok itself has become so mainstream.
"How is the US government any different from the Chinese government?"
Well, only ONE of those two governments has the ability to send men with guns to your house if they don't like you. Fortunately, this power in NEVER abused. See DJT.
The Biden Administration complied an enemies list of people who purchased *Holy Bibles* after January 6. I bet they are salivating at getting their hands on the religious videos that you are watching. Especially if you spend too much time studying any verses deemed "problematic." Sure makes it a lot easier to get Zuckerburg to comply. Plus, he'll even stand up in Congress and apologize like a trained monkey for you.
"noting that courts might find the ban unconstitutional and that China may block selling the algorithm"
Ah, so he's noting that TikTok is a whole owned subsidiary of our enemies, teh Chinese Communist government.
Which is a pretty solid argument for why it must be sold / killed, and there's no First Amendment protection involved.
Because the US Constitution does not grant rights to the CCP
Ted said...
With the tens of billions of dollars being paid for these social-media services, why couldn't the purchasers just make something similar (or better) and draw away users?
1: Because many have tried, and none have succeeded?
2: The point here is to stop the CCP from having influence over the US public. "Create another TikTok" doesn't do that
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