"There are trends on TikTok about going '
boysober'... 'Platonic life partners,' meanwhile — friends who commit to owning a home and even raising children together — insist that sex and romance are not necessary to lifelong unions. The sex educator and researcher Emily Nagoski is resistant to the idea that frequent sex should be a chief component of every committed relationship. Nagoski — who has been open about her own hiatus from marital sex — doesn’t endorse obligatory sex, nor does she encourage aiming for any sexual base line in terms of regularity or behavior. Drawing on the work of the Canadian sexologist Peggy Kleinplatz, Nagoski believes that low desire can sometimes be evidence of good judgment. 'It’s not dysfunctional not to want sex you don’t like,' Nagoski says.... For couples measuring themselves against what Nagoski calls the 'fictions' of sex, or for those worried that their relationship is on the line whenever they enter the bedroom or don’t meet some monthly number, there may be too much pressure for sex to be enjoyable. It’s more important that couples establish what kind of sex is worth having...."
Writes Amanda Montei, in
"Can a Sexless Marriage Be a Happy One? Experts and couples are challenging the conventional wisdom that sex is essential to relationships" (NYT).
My excerpt deprives you of a lot of anecdotes, so I'll just give you one as an example... an absurd example:
Michelle and John share a one-bedroom with their daughter, and while they get some privacy during the day, they’re busy working from home. Now, most days, Michelle masturbates in the morning, while John takes their daughter to preschool. He masturbates at night in the bathroom, while watching porn on his phone. For John, it’s merely a physical release, but for Michelle, pleasuring herself serves a different purpose: She is trying to figure out what makes her feel good. Exploring her changed body alone eliminates the guilt she has when she can’t climax with her husband. She doesn’t want him to think it has anything to do with him. “I want to get there, but it’s not getting there,” she says.
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50 comments:
insist that sex and romance are not necessary to lifelong unions.
What I see in the 16 to 20 year olds is sex is just as much a driving force as ever.
Mammals are not abstaining. It is not a choice.
Shorter article - me me me me mememememememememMEMEMEMEME!!!
We are living through the era of the Most Stupid Womens Movement Ever.
These are awful, broken people. Anyone who claims to be a "Sex educator", "sexologist", "sex researcher", etc., is a dangerous weirdo trying to push their own dysfunctions on the rest of us. Shun and ignore them.
The 60's through the 90's were some sexually fun decades. Score! Pun intended.
I totally agree with relationship expert Esther Perel (9 languages!) who was just interviewed in an NYT podcast.
Her view is, "Sex is basic. Physical intimacy with another human being is essential to our health and well being."
This is a positive development.
Having consensual sex with a woman shaped by the #Metoo movement can land a good man in jail.
Especially if breaks up with her, or doesn't call again.
This makes so much sense. Instead of talking to your spouse and exploring sexuality with your spouse - telling and him or her what you like and what you like less - instead let’s just Jack-off and Jill-off alone. They’ll be divorced in 5 years.
"Can a Sexless Marriage Be a Happy One?" No.
Sounds more like MeMeMe, rather than MeToo.
From the example, they are not a couple, they are roommates. Society has lost the meaning of marriage and intimacy, of sharing and sacrifice. Now everything is about the self. "And the two shall [remain as two].
Sexless marriages (before a certain age where it is a physical impossibility for both partners) is the major reason for divorce from a man's perspective -- not to say the reverse doesn't happen, it just isn't the main reason for women. I have heard many women voice the relief (or even canard) that "thank God the sex is over".
Now I am all in favor of younger women getting off the cock carousel -- but to blame it on #MeToo or to give it credit, is ludicrous. The "one in every four women in college has been raped" lie that went on as truth years back is so blatantly untrue -- unless you categorize every sex act or even affection as unwanted or non-consensual.
Fertility is collapsing all over the world. In the US our TFR 1.6 and dropping while a minimum of 2.1 is required to avoid extinction. And we're doing well compared to, for example, South Korea at 0.8.
The old cliche, nonetheless true, is that the future belongs to those that have babies. That won't be us.
Low sex drive in males is a symptom of serious health issues - most likely low testosterone (which has a host of secondary and tertiary problems), some cancers, or even chronic stress or lack of sleep. If a guy under 80 doesn’t want to f*ck, he should see a doctor.
So if wifey wants to go all abstinent, either hubby will be getting it elsewhere, or he’s ill.
That is one messed up generation.
I used to blame them. Now I blame us- the Boomers. We were a lot of things, but for the most part, we were- as a generation- awful parents. We allowed a lot of things. But perhaps the worst thing we did was not only allow our education system to become such indoctrination centers for the Frankfurt School of critical theory, but encouraged it more often than not.
So they’re roommates. With a kid. Guessing they’re in their 30s? Far too young to give up on the physical relationship. I would not bet on the marriage surviving.
The body positivity movement may be a contributing factor here.
They're all women.
A woman caller to Dr Laura long ago said that sex wasn't a priority to her any longer, and Dr Laura asked if her marriage was a priority to her. Long ago though, way before MeToo.
They just haven't met the right pervert.
A cowboy surgeon botched a gall bladder surgery on my wife in 2006. A 45 min procedure stretched to 5 hours. In the process of trying to clean up his mess he managed to cut the nerves that control sexual stimulus, leaving her unarousable. I have been an INCEL since. It hurts tremendously. If she just decided she didn't want sex anymore, I'd have left, but it's not her fault. (BTW, I wanted to sue but she said no. Hard to sue without a plaintiff.) His terrible hand has continued to wreak havoc with her health. We did hear, from her gyno, that he got struck by a rattlesnake during a snake hunt and did not get the antivenom in time and while it didn't kill him, he lost his ability to form short term memory and he is no longer a practicing doctor. Good.
I remember reading about such couples back in the seventies and eighties in the Dear Abby and Ann Landers columns. They asserted they were content with "cuddling" but had turned their backs on sexual activity. Like many phenomena that works for the stray individual or couple, this is not going to catch on. But, hell yeah, let's write a column or essay about it and get published and attraction attention.
Hahahahaha!
It's not really funny. These people have a lot of heartbreak ahead. I've been that earnest and that idiotic, and I should sympathize. I laughed anyway.
She’s just not that into you.
Orgasm isn't the point but just a surprise ending of something that was desired and pleasant, for men. That it's an ending is how it handles wired-in obsessive desire. The need comes up every few days, and for the wife to say that you're on your own don't bother me is common and possible but not a great trait. The marriage then depends on the sainthood of the husband.
I don't understand what she means can't have an orgasm with her husband. Is nothing pleasant before that? I'm not a raging expert but there are ways he can help out and simultaneously work himself up into his own enjoyment.
No thank you.
Another variation on real-world women-are-special feminism. Motto: f*#k men, IYKWIM. May need its own axis to expand the hot-crazy matrix.
"...friends who commit to owning a home and even raising children together — insist that sex and romance are not necessary to lifelong unions."
Ms. Nagoski would be on firmer ground if lifelong unions were lifelong unions.
tommyesq beat me to it!
For John, it’s merely a physical release..
That has to be the most misandrist thing I've ever seen.
Marriage.
You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means
I'm not a raging expert but there are ways he can help out and simultaneously work himself up into his own enjoyment.
Not to brag, but I learned very early, how to "complete" a woman, before intercourse. I was very popular,(women do talk). In fact a girl I was dating told my now wife, of my skills.
44 years in December.
Asking a man to get married (or equivalent) for a sexless relationship is a terrible deal for the large majority of men. Take on all the responsibilities and costs of a regular marriage, but get deprived of the most fun part. The only people who would willingly sign up for that are (a) men who are not interested in sex, which is a small minority, (b) men who are absolutely desperate, who are going to jump ship as soon as something better comes along, and (c) men who were planning on getting sex outside the relationship anyway and the marriage is for other purposes (money, status, immigration scams, etc.).
Every human generation has had nuns and those who found no pleasure in sex (formerly known as "frigid"). Ordinary animals, with no sense of rape or personal boundaries, ignore the female lack of interest because some male will take action when he sees an apparently fertile female. Animal females then move along as mothers.
Many women today are suffering from dysfunctional anxiety. This follows from endless doom stories about global warming, overpopulation, and injustice, plus the artificial competitive/wealth/beauty standards set by social media. IMO many isolated women would rapidly clamp onto a traditional wife role if given the opportunity, but anxiety disorders self reinforce avoidant behaviors. It's hard to break the cycle when fear keeps you from leaving your safe space. And then they blabber on about the self-discovery and enrichment of masturbation.
"Nagoski — who has been open about her own hiatus from marital sex"
Joint decision?
Damn GRW3. Did the doc say anything or make staff address it?
How many times you have sex doesn't really matter so long as both partners find it fulfilling. And while, yes, you shouldn't settle for bad sex, just because you don't want to doesn't mean you shouldn't anyway to satisfy your partner. So long as that's not the primary way it happens.
And if you really don't want to for long periods of time, there's either something seriously wrong with your relationship (ex., you're repulsed by your partner) or there's something wrong with you and you should see a doctor and/or therapist.
"She doesn’t want him to think it has anything to do with him."
Oh, no. Nothing to do with him, which seems to your readers to be the fundamental thing...as time goes by.
The article accurately describes a chunk of NY Times readers. The Mask-Wearing Karen Klan. Their dipshit husbands hold their manhoods cheap.
The rest of the world carries on.
More anecdotes hyped by the media in order to convince people that it is an overwhelming trend in society. This should keep the anxiety high with plenty of click-throughs so we can make our 0.000001 cent per page view.
Thanks for playing, suckers
...insist that sex and romance are not necessary to lifelong unions.
These folks don't put much value in lifelong unions. Their advice should be judged with that in mind.
Some of these selfish, insufferable, civilization-destroying twats have also called for banning lifelike sex dolls and marriages to foreign women. We should outlaw their vibrators.
the future belongs to those that have babies. That won't be us.
I've been saying for twenty years that four or five generations from now, practically everyone in the world will be Mormon, Amish, sedevacantist Catholic, Muslim, or Orthodox Jewish.
The Democrats are at particular peril of extinction even sooner. They are buggering, aborting, and boss-girling/cat-ladying themselves into demographic oblivion, while Republicans go on having two or three kids each. Hence the way they have so recklessly thrown the borders wide open. Enemy traitor scum! I savor the prospect of their complete demographic extirpation with great satisfaction. I'm a little too old to see it, but see it we will.
To the extent this represents a cultural movement against, Hook-up culture and Friends with Benefits this is a good thing. As far as a sexless marriage being a perfectly fine and functioning marriage, that is like saying a marriage is perfectly fine and functioning where neither party talks to the other about how their day went, or events in their lives in general.
"Sharon Hyman, who runs a Facebook group called Apartners for couples who have chosen to live separately." Puns aplenty.
Romantic love and companionate marriage has only dated from the Early Modern period (1600s). It waxes and wanes with economic cycles. It may have run its course and marriage will return to its political, economic roots
In Western Europe, the Early Modern Period is characterized by the rise of tenderness in romantic relationships and the emergence of companionate marriage. Despite a long research tradition, the origins of these social changes remain elusive.
[...]
We found that living standards generally predicted and temporally preceded variations of romantic love in the Early Modern Period. Furthermore, romantic love preceded an increase in nuptial rates and a decrease in births per marriage. This suggests that increasing living standards in the Early Modern Period may have contributed to the emergence of modern romantic culture.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-023-02759-4
Evolution on the down low with "benefits".
V-cels
Howard said More anecdotes hyped by the media in order to convince people that it is an overwhelming trend in society.
You mean like trans, pro-Palestinian, Biden voters, etc.?
Mr. Wibble: Add "dating coach" to that list.
Reminds me of that great scene in Terms of Endearment when friend Patsy, a socialite with a heart, treats her dying friend to a trip to NYC. After a luncheon, the friend says something like: 'I listened to these women brag about their abortions and hook-ups and wealth and a blouse they bought, but when they asked and I said I was a housewife with 3 kids and breast cancer, they acted like I had said something inaappropriate.'
Not a direct quote. McMurphy is one of the few men who can write a good woman's novel.
I first married at age 20, to a woman who was also 20. Our sex life was OK for the first couple of years, but about the time when she decided we should have a child, she went off birth control - and off of sex. Not interested. Occasionally, right at ovulation, but mostly not. We did eventually have two children, but the marriage was failing.
To answer the basic question, can you have a good marriage without sex? Her answer would have been "Of course!" while my answer was "Definitely not". I divorced her after 10 years, and married a woman who was more interested in sex and intimacy 3 years later. We've been married for 40+ years.
Yes, a lasting marriage requires sex.
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