Althouse: "The prosecutors argued that Ms. Crumbley should have noticed her son’s distress and stopped him from committing an act of unspeakable violence."

February 6, 2024

"The prosecutors argued that Ms. Crumbley should have noticed her son’s distress and stopped him from committing an act of unspeakable violence."

"Marc Keast, one of the prosecutors, said that she and her husband 'didn’t do any number of tragically small and easy things that would have prevented all of this from happening.'... Jurors were shown messages that Ethan sent to a friend in April 2021, complaining of insomnia, paranoia and hearing voices. The jurors were also shown messages that he sent to his mother in March 2021, in which he suggested that their home was haunted by a demon. Ms. Crumbley, prosecutors pointed out, did not always respond. But in her testimony, Ms. Crumbley said that Ethan and his parents had joked for years about whether their house was haunted, adding that her son was just 'messing around.'... 'As a parent, you spend your whole life trying to protect your child from other dangers,' [Ms. Crumbley testified]. 'You never would think you have to protect your child from harming somebody else.'..."

From "Mother of Michigan Gunman Found Guilty of Manslaughter/Jennifer Crumbley was convicted on four counts of involuntary manslaughter, one for each student her son killed in Michigan’s deadliest school shooting" (NYT).

65 comments:

mikee said...: Google says: "Negligence is the failure to behave with the level of care that a reasonable person would have exercised under the same circumstances. Either a person's actions or omissions of actions can be found negligent."

Failing to address an obvious hazard, like a kid hearing voices and seeing demons, is kinda the definition of negligence. Same as if a kid goes around hitting other kids and the parents don't act.; 2/6/24, 1:09 PM
n.n said...: He perceived a "burden" and, relying on popular violent ideation, relieved it with a scalpel stroke in a late-term affirmative action.; 2/6/24, 1:16 PM
Enigma said...: Althouse theme for several posts: Don't trust prosecutors or juries in blue states?

Next thing you know, some people will blame those alive today for the sins and evils committed by their distant racial cousins 500 years ago in the name of racial superiority. They will also refuse to admit that some people fought and died to end racist laws. Oh wait, they are already spreading blame that far and wide.

Sane people in blue states: Move away now or you will suffer and die.
Insane people in blue states: Stay put and enjoy the anarchy. You demanded it. Watch Escape from New York and Road Warrior for 'social justice' management plans.; 2/6/24, 1:16 PM
CJinPA said...: If I recall, both parents were called to the school the day of the shooting, told about school concerns, and refused to take the kid home.

They bought him the gun.

This is risky, charging parents for the acts of a child. But, guilty.; 2/6/24, 1:18 PM
Jeff Vader said...: Hmm do white progressives not know who do most of the shootings in this country? Do they really want to start going after moms? I agree she is a piece of shit but so are most others; 2/6/24, 1:26 PM
Big Mike said...: Travesty; 2/6/24, 1:28 PM
Skeptical Voter said...: Well then Charles Manson's mother should go to jail--retroactively of course since I presume the woman is now long dead.

But this situation points up a problem with the country's treatment of the mentally ill. In an earlier time the kid's mother might have been able to have him committed involuntarily for mental treatment. Now we leave our mentally ill people to survive on the street.; 2/6/24, 1:29 PM
Oligonicella said...: Now start prosecuting boards that let murders out to murder again. Only fair.; 2/6/24, 1:34 PM
gilbar said...: so, if i Don't STOP someone from killing.. I'm guilty of manslaughter ?
what if i DO stop someone from killing?
Daniel Penny is charged with second-degree manslaughter in the death of Jordan Neely
Neely repeated over and over, I'm going to kill you, I'm prepared to go to jail for life, and I'm willing to die.

So, If Penny HADN'T stopped Penny.. He would have be guilty TOO?
Damned if you do.. Damned if you don't; 2/6/24, 1:34 PM
Tina Trent said...: Mom and dad need to serve time.

So do 75% of the daddies and mommies in urban Atlanta.

I used to keep a sack of ramen noodles, boxed milk and formula, social worker cards, and splints in my fucking bathroom. I stopped a man from breaking a child's other arm once he got the first one. The kids knew to run to my house. I got between him and the weeping eight year old and slugged him, no, really just slightly: something I had only seen in the movies, and I didn't know how to do it, and also my own revulsion held me back. I had never hit anyone before. I was bigger than him. I was as amazed as he was. Our mutual amazement probably saved both of us from much worse. It could be described as comic, but for the child.

I also said I was a cop. We both knew I was lying.

That's a really thin line, and it isn't blue.

Bygones.; 2/6/24, 1:38 PM
BUMBLE BEE said...: What sets these parents apart from the other shooters parents? Why this prosecution? Are not the trans shooter children "disturbed"?; 2/6/24, 1:45 PM
traditionalguy said...: She should have known better, presuming Demons are real of course.; 2/6/24, 1:52 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: If parents are responsible for this, could they be held responsible later on for a child’s sex change regrets?; 2/6/24, 1:52 PM
Jupiter said...: What a sickening travesty. How many parents have been charged with involuntary manslaughter when their child is involved in a fatal automobile accident?; 2/6/24, 2:05 PM
mccullough said...: Can fill the prisons now with the moms of Detroit gang members; 2/6/24, 2:05 PM
tcrosse said...: There's a long tradition of holding people responsible for the sins of their ancestors, so I suppose turnabout is fair play.; 2/6/24, 2:19 PM
RMc said...: If the violence was truly unspeakable, how could they tell us about it...?; 2/6/24, 2:19 PM
Michael said...: If giving guns to mentally unstable people is a.crime, then let's throw up a barbed wire cordon and turn the Pentagon into an open air prison.; 2/6/24, 2:19 PM
n.n said...: Emanations from penumbras.

Handmade tales.

Transgendermic.

Planned Parenthood

Planned Parent/hood.

Psychoactive prescriptions.

DEI

Sino-Fauci pandemic

In Stork They Trust; 2/6/24, 2:26 PM
ga6 said...: she white, kid white prosecutor ambitious...; 2/6/24, 2:28 PM
n.n said...: Catastrophic Anthropogenic Immigration Reform... excess murder, rapes, pedophilia, human trafficking, etc. The diverse modes of progress with precedent.; 2/6/24, 2:29 PM
Josephbleau said...: It’s more effective if prosecutors keep people guessing on what the law is, that way they can punish only those they don’t like.; 2/6/24, 2:44 PM
MadisonMan said...: I question whether someone can view a loved one's behavior and accurately project a disastrous ending.; 2/6/24, 2:47 PM
Kakistocracy said...: We bought our children books and visited museums. Spent summers at the lake, took camping trips to Glacier, Banff, Yosemite and trips to the BWCA. Parents have more obligations towards their children than feeding them.; 2/6/24, 3:23 PM
iowan2 said...: This mirrors lots of the complaint lodged against Trump. Something he failed to do or say. Was far worse than his actual words and deeds.

I can see the failing of other parents (we were perfect, with our kids). But even with what I knew, I could never figure out how to punish the parents. One town we lived in was overrun with aging jocks. Moms and Dads. The stress they put on their children, to field, and hit, and dribble and tackle, was criminal. None of them murdered anyone, yet. But their relationships all fell apart. Far too many divorces. To much emphasis on winning, not enough about respect and caring. With your parents modeling a focus on winning at all costs, and not personal relationships, the kids suffer.; 2/6/24, 3:29 PM
JK Brown said...: The lesson is, don't have children if you value your personal liberty and freedom.

Now cue all those whining about the declining brith rate.

"As Malthus argued, the only force strong enough to stand against the biological desire to mate and have children, was the even stronger social desire to live comfortably and avoid poverty." --Invention of the Modern World; 2/6/24, 3:36 PM
MayBee said...: I have really mixed feelings about this.

But....the parents were called to school the day of the shooting because of a drawing Ethan had made on his math worksheet of a gun, blood, and people begging for their lives. The gun in the drawing looked just like Ethan's new gun. They knew what the picture was of before they arrived, but did not stop at home on the way to see if Ethan's gun was where it should be. They were told they would like him to go home with them, but they both said they had to work, so school thought it was better for him not to be alone, because they considered him a suicide threat. The parents were given a list of mental health counseling services, and told they must call within 48 hours. Neither parent told the school Ethan had a gun that looked just like the one in the picture.Both parents then returned to work. The minute they heard there was a shooting at Oxford Hight School, they did not fear their son was under attack. They knew he was the shooter.

Mr Crumbley was a Door Dash driver. He did not have to return to work. Or, he could have brought Ethan with him. He did not leave the school meeting and begin calling mental health counseling services. He did not leave the school and return to his nearby home to see if Ethan's gun was there.

Mrs Crumbley was in marketing at a Real Estate Development company. She had a non-mandatory meeting later that day. She did not have to return to work. She could have brought Ethan to work. She did not leave the meeting and begin calling mental health counseling services. She did not run home and check to see if Ethan's gun was where it should be. She returned to work and began scheduling her horse riding lesson for that evening.

Was the shooting foreseeable? They knew it was him when they heard there was a shooter. So yes, it was foreseeable. It was just too much bother to interrupt their day and do something to help Ethan.; 2/6/24, 3:36 PM
Josephbleau said...: If I were an attorney I would advise clients with male or female to male kids to take them to a psychologist every year and tell them everything the kid is doing and specifically say “You are the professional, please tell me exactly what I need to do to keep the community safe from my kid.” Then ask for copies of the clinical notes. This may keep you out of the hands of these sicko prosecutors.; 2/6/24, 3:45 PM
n.n said...: It sounds like a border-line legal conundrum.; 2/6/24, 3:51 PM
Wince said...: Dr. Jill beware. Your husband might have presidential immunity, but…; 2/6/24, 3:56 PM
Dogma and Pony Show said...: This is bad social policy. Nobody is going to want to care for troubled young men and women if they can be held directly responsible for the person's violent acts.; 2/6/24, 3:56 PM
rehajm said...: Very creepy and disturbing. We ignore tens millions of obvious crimes then prosecute anyone remotely connected to one crime.

I smell politics...; 2/6/24, 4:00 PM
Iman said...: “So, If Penny HADN'T stopped Penny.. He would have be guilty TOO?
Damned if you do.. Damned if you don't”

A Penny had is a Penny burned.; 2/6/24, 4:00 PM
Jupiter said...: "Same as if a kid goes around hitting other kids and the parents don't act."

Yes, and God knows, the prisons are filled with parents like that.; 2/6/24, 4:17 PM
n.n said...: The prosecutorial charge is that any incentive to commit homicide/abortion is a criminal liability is a critical Democrat apology.; 2/6/24, 4:18 PM
Tomcc said...: I don't know what I would do if my child was expressing homicidal ideation. I'd probably start by trying to get him to a psychiatrist as soon as possible. What I would not do is introduce a gun into the residence.
Reading the prosecutor's points, I'm inclined to think it's the correct decision.; 2/6/24, 4:19 PM
Jupiter said...: "so, if i Don't STOP someone from killing.. I'm guilty of manslaughter ?
what if i DO stop someone from killing?"

Also, what if you <a href="https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/02/kolstad-family-faces-imminent-arrest-amid-legal-battle/>try</a> to stop a gang of depraved monsters from cutting your daughter's breasts off?; 2/6/24, 4:21 PM
Howard said...: This is a confused issue exposing cognitive dissonance as it pits being tough on crime against being free and easy with firearms.; 2/6/24, 4:39 PM
rhhardin said...: It will get overturned. There are no common law crimes in the US. It's part of the due process guarantee. You have to be warned ahead of time what will be a crime.; 2/6/24, 5:01 PM
Jamie said...: Ugh, this is sticky. Thank God, none of my kids has ever shown signs of mental illness - I have no idea what your options are if they do. We do have a friend whose son exhibited symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia as an older teen, and that dad got him into care immediately, so obviously that's possible, and it certainly sounds as if in this particular case the parents negligently failed to respond both to their son's behavior and speech and to the school's efforts to have them intervene. So maybe this particular case is not as sticky as it gets.

But I can see a lot of possibilities for very sticky cases indeed. What about the gangbanger son who is much bigger than his mom or grandmother and habitually threatens or actually injures her? He's not mentally ill (probably - psychopathy isn't mental illness), so mental health care isn't available to her for him. And abused people don't always react to their situation "rationally" (say, by going to the police) - especially since often the last time they tried to find help, the abuser dragged them back (or the help failed to materialize or failed to find grounds to separate them) and beat them up again. So what do you do with that mom, after her son murders someone and gets caught? Of course she knew he was at high risk for GBH or murder. But he is the perp, and she was not in a position to stop him.

Ugh.; 2/6/24, 5:07 PM
Kevin said...: How many parents will now be locked up from the South Side of Chicago?

And why would grandparents be off the hook?; 2/6/24, 5:29 PM
Yancey Ward said...: My objection to this prosecution and verdict is that Ms. Crumbley could not have possibly known she was committing this crime. This verdict should be thrown out on appeal, but she is particularly unsympathetic defendant like Derek Chauvin, so she is probably screwed 5 ways to Sunday.; 2/6/24, 5:44 PM
Cameron said...: If the parents are guilty, how much more guilty are the school authorities ?

They have the power to search the kid's backpack, which they failed to do.

they have the power to request a psychiatric hold and evaluation, which they failed to do.

Unlike the parents they are objectively distant and don't have the excuse of writing these things off as just quirky behaviour.

Unlike the parents they are trained these exact things but somehow its the parents that are guilty.; 2/6/24, 5:47 PM
Aggie said...: In a way I see this NYT reporting as a very low standard, a kind of 'helicopter' reporting of the verdict, capturing very little of the tragedy. I remember back when this happened. The reporting that covered the entire family in the days after the incident was pretty high on the Creepy scale for all three of them. It was a clearly dysfunctional family, but that doesn't really come across in this story, except as a side feature. Makes me wonder if journalism is ever going to come back in this country.

From what I remember at the time, I can see why they are finding the parent liable.; 2/6/24, 6:00 PM
FullMoon said...: Wifes mallish Samoan co-worker had a 17 year old son. One of the big ones.
He acted up, she slapped his face. Teacher overheard him joking about it.
Mom arrested, sentenced to probation and anger management classes.

Of course, I am in California, so not too surprising.; 2/6/24, 6:02 PM
FullMoon said...: Parents called to school same day teachers and admin became concerned. School failed to send the boy home.

Kid later pulled gun from backpack and shot classmates.

Is school somewhat to blame?; 2/6/24, 6:05 PM
FullMoon said...: Psychiatrist will prescibe meds.
Patient will feel bored, lethargic ,or un-happy, or cured while medicated, and will quit taking meds.; 2/6/24, 6:08 PM
Goldenpause said...: Hindsight is always 20/20. The prosecutors should be ashamed of themselves. Let’s hope the judicial system stops this political grandstanding.; 2/6/24, 6:20 PM
Jupiter said...: "I don't know what I would do if my child was expressing homicidal ideation. I'd probably start by trying to get him to a psychiatrist as soon as possible."

How about just don't send him back to school, the place where they are driving him crazy?

I distinctly recall thinking about killing people at school when I was 13. In fact, I wrote a one-man play about it. The protagonist was named "Ralph", and in the climactic scene, he told the Vice-Principal to "Go play marbles in the freeway!". The play ended with him planting a bomb in the cafeteria, and sitting sullenly in the VP's outer office, thinking about whether to reveal it before it went off. The final narration was "Tick. Tick. Tick."

Get this; I showed it to one of my teachers, and they let me put it on. In the cafeteria, in fact. As I recall, it was very well received. Those were different times! Anyway, I actually did very well in school, but I dreaded being bullied, which happened all the time to a puny, smart-mouthed brat like me. I remember waking up in the morning, and immediately, a palpable, hopeless horror would descend upon me. "I am going to have to go to school". I would rather have been flogged every morning at sunup. Get that out of the way.

It took me years to get over junior high school. Some have even suggested that I never did fully recover.; 2/6/24, 6:57 PM
Jupiter said...: "So what do you do with that mom, after her son murders someone and gets caught?"

If you are a Democrat, that hinges upon two questions;
1 - "Did her son use a gun?"
2 - "Is she white?"

Pretty fucking simple, really.; 2/6/24, 7:00 PM
Mason G said...: "Unlike the parents they are trained these exact things..."

Obviously, funding for schools needs to be increased.; 2/6/24, 7:58 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: Next thing you know, Ivanka is getting indicted, on account that she should've known her father was an insurrectionist.; 2/6/24, 8:34 PM
Kirk Parker said...: Full Moon,

I was with you up until "smallish Samoan". Gedoudda here...; 2/6/24, 8:55 PM
Jupiter said...: This locution, "bullying", implies a triviality that is in no wise present. A male at the age of puberty is trying to figure out how to behave like a man, while armed only with the body of a boy. When another male "bullies" him, he is being forced to accept his own abasement at someone else's hands. To accept it is to be a faggot, a pussy, a beta. But to reject it requires that you engage in a physical struggle that you are unlikely to win. I remember sitting at the bench in my father's shop, sharpening a jigsaw blade. My idea was that I would hide it inside an egg-shaped wooden thing I built -- how that made sense I'm not sure, at this point -- but anyway, when a certain person -- a very certain person -- attempted to physically humiliate and abuse me, as he had done many times before, I would plunge it into his arm.

I can see now that this was not really a good plan. Sticking him in the arm might merely have enraged him. Driving it into his brain through his eye socket would have been far more effective. Even now, I feel a certain wistful desire to give that a try. Truth be told, the last time I saw him he was checking out my groceries, and we had a fairly genial chat. I daresay he had forgotten how he once tormented me (as, no doubt, I have forgotten the many, many people I have tormented). I did not feel any desire to harm him. None. It's the memory of the humiliation he inflicted on me that I want to vent my rage upon.

ANYWAY. Home school. It's much easier than they want you to know -- How hard can it be, if they can do it? I am not saying that the school caused this tragedy, although I believe that is an entirely supportable conjecture. But when I see the photos of the child who committed these awful murders, with the fuzz on his upper lip ....

Well. To quote an infamous American, "If I had a son ....".

Actually, I have a son. And he has never attended public school. My wife and I made damned sure of that.; 2/6/24, 9:36 PM
Jupiter said...: You will say, that the World is a tough place, and a young person needs to come to terms with that. No fucking doubt. You aren't going to go forth and triumph every single day of your life, particularly if you are young, naive, weak, and foolish. But where is it written, that having gotten your ass kicked yesterday by a team of experts, the best treatment for what ails you is to get it kicked again today, harder, by the same well-practiced team? Ask yourself. What would you do? You would either succumb to regarding yourself as a LOSER -- one who loses because, after all, he deserves to lose. He is inadequate to the task of winning -- or else you STEP UP. Improve your game. Develop and carry out a plan to achieve those objectives that are most important to you, ignoring, or, at least, setting to one side for now, the possible secondary ramifications. Sharpen a jigsaw blade, find a convenient way to conceal it, and when the opportunity present itself, go in through the eye socket and kill the brain of the person who is trying to subjugate you. Jiggle the weapon in the wound, then rip it out, to ensure a positive outcome.

Note any similarities to certain things you have seen in prison movies? What do schools and prisons have in common?

What do schools and prisons have in common?; 2/6/24, 10:01 PM
Jupiter said...: I've said it before, but I'll say it again. When our first child approached "kindergarten" age, my wife and I were reluctant to discuss our plans, because we both anticipated serious conflict. But one day, I grasped the nettle -- "I don't think we should send (her) to school."

And I awaited the storm, with my arguments in place. But what my wife said, was, "So we home-school her?".

"(?) Yeah."
"OK."; 2/6/24, 10:13 PM
Jupiter said...: It was only later, discussing this happy outcome with my wife, that I learned that she had hated school as much as I did, although for very different reasons, and had been worried that I would insist our children be subjected to that awful experience.

Her reasons for hating school were different than mine. She had been subjected to a purely verbal form of torture, while I had been subjected to physical assault. But neither one of us believed that the rather modest advantages of public schooling could in any way justify the misery -- the sheer, day-in and day-out misery -- inevitable with submersion in the public schools.

I believe that there may have been a time, when the public schools were a learning environment, controlled by sensible adults. And that might actually have been an environment in which children could become successful adults. That was then. What is valuable for young people, is to be immersed in a social milieu in which competence is the basis of status. The public schools, and, indeed, almost all private schools, are not such environments.; 2/6/24, 10:30 PM
Levi Starks said...: First day in prison: “what are you in for?”….; 2/7/24, 12:30 AM
wendybar said...: But the government can secretly behind your back transition your 14 year old with out your knowledge. Should the government be charged instead of the parents since they now own our children??; 2/7/24, 6:19 AM
wendybar said...: Imagine all of the parents in Chicago who should be prosecuted then....; 2/7/24, 6:21 AM
wendybar said...: Wait... Hasn't HILLARY claimed it takes a village?? So the whole village goes down, right???; 2/7/24, 6:23 AM
Richard said...: Displacement.
There's too much hurt and anger in the general public to load on the actual shooter. He's overloaded. Further blame isn't satisfying so other recipients must be found.
The precedent leads to any parent whose kid commits a felony, does it not?
Stupid, evil prosecution (usual in that county) and in the jury too much emotional self dealing.; 2/7/24, 7:03 AM
Richard said...: Displacement.
There's too much hurt and anger in the general public to load on the actual shooter. He's overloaded. Further blame isn't satisfying so other recipients must be found.
The precedent leads to any parent whose kid commits a felony, does it not?
Stupid, evil prosecution (usual in that county) and in the jury too much emotional self dealing.; 2/7/24, 7:04 AM
Mikey NTH said...: Jupiter: I understand. Junior high was hell on earth. The bullying both verbal and physical was constant. The only relief was temporary after winning a few fights. The true relief was making some friends with some very large students.

Glasses, braces, and acne (me) needed allies.; 2/7/24, 6:12 PM
Rusty said...: I know a few progressives. Everyone of them owns a gun.; 2/8/24, 4:57 PM