From "Trump: ‘I’m not a student of Hitler’" (The Hill)(summarizing things Trump said on Hugh Hewitt's radio show yesterday).
They say that he said something about blood.... Trump opponents should find the Hitler quotes about "blood," put them next to Trump quotes about "blood," and compare the meaning — seriously and accurately. There's a great anti-Trump argument to be made, if the material aligns very well. If the argument is not made, I'm going to presume it can't be made. I put a little effort into this task myself, and the Hitler "blood" quotes I saw were about interbreeding and mixed race children. The Trump "blood" quotes seem to be about immigrants who don't speak English and don't share — or want to learn — our values. I'm wary of the Trump-is-Hitler propagandists, but if they do the hard, honest work of developing their argument, I will listen. If they don't, I'm holding it against them.
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123 comments:
Trump's always been an ignorant buffoon, but that's why we love him. I know he's read Hitler, but so has any student of history, so that doesn't make anyone a racist. Still, he DOES sometime speak in a way that, rightfully, gives Americans pause, because our history's so screwed-up. For instance, calling Haiti a "shithole country" - after WE made it that way to preserve racism and slavery - is an example. I think, if he knew more about it, he would speak differently.
I definitely don't 'worry' about it.
Fentanyl seems to taint the blood
Hey, Biden. When did you stop beating your wife?
Hey, Trump. Did you finish reading Mein Kampf?
People of color, color blocs, 1-2 Americans...
While Trump judges people by their chracter, his antagonists derive value from diversity taxonomy.
"if the material aligns very well"
You can also do this with plagiarism. I wonder how many people who insist Trump is borrowing from Hitler would be willing to honestly and consistently assess the accusations against Claudine Gay.
DEI, corruption of blood, color privilege, affirmative discrimination, 1-2 Americans, Pro-Choice religion, political congruence, redistributive change, ethnic Springs, single/central/monopolistic solutions, Occupy/SS BLM/Antifa, Levine dreams of Herr Mengele, Gosnell, too, environmentalism, Green blight, conflation of logical domains, witch hunts/warlock judgments, womb banks, women take a knee, human rites, etc. The left long ago lost the lead.
He can and will say anything he wants about what he meant and he came up with these phrases.
The point is that he also knows very well how they be interpretted: by his most extreme supporters as confirmation of their nastiest dreams; and, by the democrats who will delight the rest of the MAGAs by getting their knickers in a twist over it.
No, he's not coherent enough to be a Hitler, but he does like people to think he plans to be some kind of Fuhrer.
If elected he will just slouch around like last time and find some way to cut more taxes on the rich.
well the Hamas Charter, cribbed from the works of the Brotherhood like Qutb, are a good fit for Mein Kampf,
there was never going to be a happy ending for Germany, because of Clemenceaus' vengeance at Versailles because of Stalin's skulduggery, the training of the German Wehrmacht on Russian soil,
"I'm wary of the Trump-is-Hitler propagandists, but if they do the hard, honest work of developing their argument, I will listen. If they don't, I'm holding it against them."
How quaint.
The back... black hole... whore h/t NAACP you say.
People of Black (PoB) and People of Brown (PoB) are semantically interchangeable under the tenets of diversity dogma. Think of the People of White (PoW) (i.e. albinos) celebrated in parts.
Anytime someone refers to "the blood" in conversation or speeches, especially in the context of a tainting or weakening or "poisoning" (Trump's word) of the blood or body, there is an intended racial subtext. Even if Trump is ignorant of Hitler or his writing or rhetoric, (I say if), there is no doubt Trump's comments are racial in intent, however amorphous Trump's own thinking. He's talking, after all, about non-English speaking brown people from across the border whom he regularly derides as "criminals" and "diseased." (Even if isn't a racist--big if--that doesn't mean he wouldn't or doesn't happily blow dog whistles to the racists among his base.)
Once again.....
Byron Donalds
@ByronDonalds
·
Dec 21
Joe Biden can say an entire race of people isn’t legitimate if they don’t vote for him and the left is silent. And you want me to be mad at Trump for saying millions of illegal immigrants are changing the fabric of our nation?
Please spare me the outrage.
12/23/23, 6:59 AM Delete
"While Trump judges people by their character...."
Ha! By character, you mean net worth, or what they can do for him, right?
there was never going to be a happy ending for Germany, because of Clemenceaus' vengeance at Versailles because of Stalin's skulduggery, the training of the German Wehrmacht on Russian soil
His struggle, an alien import and character, their... I wasn't aware of their commingling.
Crack: "For instance, calling Haiti a "shithole country" - after WE made it that way to preserve racism and slavery - is an example."
OK, so you agree with Trump that it IS a shithole country. You just don't think he should have said so because "we" made it that way.
What did "we" do to make Haiti a shithole country? You said we did it in order to preserve racism and slavery, so there's the motive. But HOW did we do it?
Althouse said...
Trump opponents should find the Hitler quotes about "blood," put them next to Trump quotes about "blood," and compare the meaning — seriously and accurately.
Won't happen. Trump opponents can't do that, much less even quote Trump in full context, because it'd be obvious who he was talking about.
As I pointed out before...
Wince said...
For the record, the subject "they" in Trump's statement was the Biden administration allowing unvetted people to enter the country illegally, but you wouldn't see that from the truncated quotes in most of the press.
“They let — I think the real number is 15, 16 million people into our country. When they do that, we got a lot of work to do. They’re poisoning the blood of our country,” Trump told the crowd at a rally in New Hampshire. “That’s what they’ve done."
12/20/23, 7:57 AM
His "proof" that he is not racist is that he has relatively high poll numbers with Blacks and Hispanics. That is proof of nothing.
He excluded Europe (mentioned every continent other than Europe and Australia as the source of the poisoned blood) from the source of this poisoned blood.
Without evidence, he claims "they" are emptying prisons, Mental Health Facilities, and insane asylums (who even uses that term any more) with out telling us who "they" are. (Similar to when he objected to the Visa Lottery system by claiming that the foreign governments abuse the system and don't send us their best people, which belies a shocking ignorance about how the system works).
Even though Hewitt gave him ample opportunity to say he meant that the illegal drugs coming in (presumably with the illegal immigrants) were poisoning our blood, he never mentioned drugs.
Finally, he claimed that he didn't know anything about Hitler. A couple sentences later he claimed that Hitler meant something completely different in referring to poison blood than what Trump meant. Which is it?
What does it mean to hold something against someone? How about holding something against the guy who rants about blood in his speeches to rile up the crowd?
To me it’s extremely simple. Trump didn’t read Hitlers writing or speeches. The people saying this shit on TV didn’t read Hitlers writing or speeches. I didn’t read Hitlers writing or speeches. I didn’t read Hitlers writing or speeches. I haven’t read Hitler books or speeches. Thus I follow Godwin’s law, if you smelt it y’all dealt it.
Back in 2016, the observation was the left takes Clinton seriously, not literally
Trump on the other hand is taken literally (if it suits the smear) and not seriously.
The tactic, as is exposed by our host, has been going on with the media, against Republicans, for at least 60 years. DDE, was immune, because he was a Victorious War II General.(the only one actually admired by a Republican. DDE built the interState system due to admiration of Hitler's invention of the Autobahn. That means, using the Trump Protocols, if you like the interstate system, YOU are a Hitler lover, and want to murder millions.
Every other Republican has been compared to Hitler. With the tag line that "this" Republican Hitler wanna be, is worse than the last Republican wanna be Hitler.
Its all so comical, yet depressing, that it is allowed to work.
so what do you do with the 10 million that have swarmed the border, many of them unskilled, many military age men, from countries that wish ill upon us,
Enough. Just enough. No to four more years plus of this. Fair or unfair, I don't care. I'm done. Please let's not put the country through this nonsense.
Dogma and Pony Show said...
"OK, so you agree with Trump that it IS a shithole country."
No, you're assuming that - never a good idea.
"You just don't think he should have said so because "we" made it that way."
No, because it's not true.
"What did "we" do to make Haiti a shithole country?"
America and other western nations blockaded them after they threw off the French and slavery. Like the Palestinians, they're "being taught a lesson" about standing up for themselves.
"You said we did it in order to preserve racism and slavery, so there's the motive. But HOW did we do it?"
I told you: white people got scared.
I'm wary of the Trump-is-Hitler propagandists, but if they do the hard, honest work of developing their argument, I will listen.
Perhaps they can begin with the not hard but still honest work of publishing the entire transcript of what he said.
I immediately know I'm being conned when they throw out a paraphrased statement without any context at all.
Worse than that is when they don't even quote him but just tell you "what Trump said".
No to four more years plus of this.
If Trump doesn't become President in 2024, he can run again in 2028.
BTW - Dogma and Pony Show,
Some white people seem to live just to marginalize, denigrate, and demean others. Their own sense of wellbeing depends on it. That's why the have to yell "America Number One!" all the time. It's like Tiny Dick syndrome makes 'em buy gigantic trucks they never use to haul anything. They HAVE to claim Haiti is a "shithole country" without the French, just as they HAVE to claim Palestine was a "hellhole" before the Zionists arrived. It IS racism - I just don't think Trump's a racist. He's just not always that bright.
But who is?
Uncontrolled immigration from poor (shithole, if you will) countries is most certainly poisoning our society and culture (blood?) to some degree. I know and work with many illegal Mexican immigrants who are a positive benefit to American society. However, it is undeniable that cultures are the product of the population, not geography. If you want your society to look and behave more like central America, then all you need to do is import lots of central Americans. People from impoverished low trust societies do not become culturally North American just by relocating here. They bring the very traits with them that made their home countries what they are. I'd like us to bring lots of well educated people from countries that broadly share our values to the United States. This would not exclude people on the basis of race, but on past behavior and accomplishment. Moving to the USA is a huge benefit for most who do so, and the benefit needs to go both ways.
yes proscription is more your thing,
We are in Year 8 of the Trump=Hitler conversation. No Mas.
Deport the arguments.
Mark said...
"Enough. Just enough. No to four more years plus of this. Fair or unfair, I don't care. I'm done. Please let's not put the country through this nonsense."
Your unreasoning hate is the reason we're going thropugh this shit. You voted for this.
If you hear the whistle you're the dog.
Cook have you seen the racial makeup of the hordes swarming our borders? Tens of thousands of Russians, Chinese, Iranians and Ukrainians. And what is this “brown people” shit? I have it from reliable sources that Hispanic and Latino are white and should be treated as such. The only brown skin I saw was among the Haitians and Africans. You need to update your understanding of the border and confer with your fellow commies and let us normies know what terminology you should use.
Me, I’m confident Trump was criticizing the policy more than the people and he has explicitly stated fentanyl is “poisoning America” but he is so good at triggering you lefties that he can’t help salting his speeches with boob bait for bubbas. Ha!
"Your unreasoning hate is the reason we're going thropugh this shit. You voted for this."
More than this, it is their explicit strategy to make people sick of it. The only productive response is that you would have to a three-year-old's temper tantrum; do not let them get away with it. People recognize this. It's why Trump's numbers increase with each new outrage.
Our Hitler expert, Freder, is on the case.
Finally, he claimed that he didn't know anything about Hitler. A couple sentences later he claimed that Hitler meant something completely different in referring to poison blood than what Trump meant. Which is it?
You tell us. By the way, quote and list the source of the quote from Hitler's writings. I am not a Hitler expert and I doubt few here have read anything he wrote. You're the expert because you obviously have read a lot of Hitler's work.
Old and Slow,
"I'd like us to bring lots of well educated people from countries that broadly share our values to the United States."
Not just no, but hell no! What have you got against the rest of the world, that you would like to deprive them of their best and brightest? What do you think will happen to those countries in their societies if all of their highly competent people leave for the US?
"I'm wary of the Trump-is-Hitler propagandists, but if they do the hard, honest work of developing their argument, I will listen. If they don't, I'm holding it against them."
No. Such foolishness is not to be dignified with any manner of recognition, including analysis.
Trump the America loving buffoon/egomaniac is not Hitler the Fascist.
"Trump opponents should find the Hitler quotes about "blood," put them next to Trump quotes about "blood," and compare the meaning — seriously and accurately."
Kiddo, a team of several hundred of them spent many hours doing exactly that. Didn't work out, so they ditched it and went with the smear. Duuhhh-uuuuh. Bisyllabic "Duh" for that suggestion.
@Cook: “Anytime someone refers to "the blood" in conversation or speeches, especially in the context of a tainting or weakening or "poisoning" (Trump's word) of the blood or body, there is an intended racial subtext.”
You state this with such indicative dismissiveness. As if you are the arbiter in possession of some ultimate authority.
Jesus: “The meek shall inherit the earth.”
I’m not using this kerfuffle to argue about Trump’s choice of words. Trump is barely literate above a sixth grade level.
My delight in all of this is Trump’s completely transparent understanding about how he got caught in his 1990’s lie about having a copy of Hitler’s collected speeches, published as “My New Order,” at his bedside during his first marriage.
Spam filter alert.
Steven Fry suggested a more able alternative he called it Gloder in Making History, would come to power,
Someone asked Trump to dinner and saved the water glass. Sent it to an FBI lab in Guantanamo. Trumps DNA came back 99.999 % match to Hitler. So when Trumps experts say Trump is almost like Hitler, they are almost factually correct. Good enough for a Polifact mostly true rating.
You may be right about why Haiti is a shithole country and our culpability. Perhaps a discussion for another day.
But are you seriously saying that Haiti is NOT a shithole country?
Literally due to not having sewage systems
And figuratively due to 200+ years of really shitty, but independent, govt.
John Henry
Trump's daughter and therefore his grandchildren are a direct offense to Hitler's use of "blood". The gnosticism religion underlying Nazism saw the Jews as a threat to civilization and their intermixing with Aryans had cause the problems with civilization in Europe.
Here is historian TIKhistory quoting from Mein Kampf where Hitler offers one discussion of "blood"
https://youtu.be/y011Pdrb3Sk?t=2341
Here's a thought experiment for you, crack.
Suppose the slaves in the southern states had the opportunity to migrate to Haiti between 1804 and 1865. Assuming full knowledge of conditions for blacks in both Haiti and the South.
How many southern blacks would have viewed Haiti as preferable to the us?
Or vice versa. How many Haitians might have emigrated to the us south?
In the calculus of horrors, which country was more horrible?
John Henry
"Trump the America loving buffoon/egomaniac"
I see no evidence of Trump loving America, other than when he humps the flag.
"Uncontrolled immigration from poor (shithole, if you will) countries is most certainly poisoning our society and culture (blood?) to some degree."
Immigration, controlled and uncontrolled, of poor and/or desperate persons fleeing shithole countries into ours, seeking better lives, is the story of America, baby!
Can you describe in more detail how immigrants from shithole countries are "most certainly" (you assert) "poisoning our society and culture?" (Or are you just afraid that if enough of them accumulate here they will somehow do to us what we did to those living here when European settlers started arriving here?)
I was counting just Haitian independence above.
But we can't forget that they had 300 years of really shitty French governance before that.
John Henry
well trump never said it, but Haiti did take up many of the bad habits of the Bourbons who had run it, about a century later, the prime minister was hacked to death on the Court house steps, that precipitated the 15 year intervention the constitution run by Young Roosevelt yadda yadda,
"@Cook: 'Anytime someone refers to "the blood" in conversation or speeches, especially in the context of a tainting or weakening or "poisoning" (Trump's word) of the blood or body, there is an intended racial subtext.'
"You state this with such indicative dismissiveness. As if you are the arbiter in possession of some ultimate authority."
If that's how you want to characterize "stating an obvious reality," sure thing!
I've read Mein Kampf. Very boring. Can't remember most of it. Not as boring as Capital - I've read neither in the original. I do remember him wittering on about blood purity and miscegenation, in a pretend scientific sort of way, but I don't think Trump's comments were in any way similar.
I expect of they were the connection, rather than the assertion, would have already been made.
Can you describe in more detail how immigrants from shithole countries are "most certainly" (you assert) "poisoning our society and culture?"
Certainly. A nation's culture is entirely determined by its population. Geography is meaningless. A country becomes who it imports to a significant degree. I was using the word "poisoning" because Trump used it and I was emphasizing his presumed point. It is not the word I would have chosen.
"I'm wary of the Trump-is-Hitler propagandists, but if they do the hard, honest work of developing their argument, I will listen. If they don't, I'm holding it against them."
I'm struggling for a comparison here. Narrowed it down to either Aesop or that pony in the pile.
You tell us.
The first statement is probably true (he knows nothing about Hitler even if he bothered to read any of the speeches in the book he was gifted). The second comment that Hitler meant something else when Hitler referred to poisoned blood is a lie or bullshit.
He seems to have meant the same as Hitler has poisoning the blood by breeding with foreigners. After all that is exactly the kind of language that drove anti-miscegenation laws. They were all about keeping the white race pure. Most of them just prohibited the marriage of whites and non-whites, they didn't care if a black married an Indian.
I find these endless attacks on Trump so fucking boring. Trump was POTUS for 4 years. He wasn't a Nazi, an authoritarian, or a fascist.
Plus, the MSM has been lying about Trump and what he said for 7 years now. Sorry, I don't care. Its just background noise. Like Mitt Romney or the NYT's calling Trump "a threat to democracy" or "A russian Agent".
If y'all want to keep attacking Trump's rhetoric, go ahead. It makes me go to sleep.
I find these endless attacks on Trump so fucking boring. Trump was POTUS for 4 years. He wasn't a Nazi, an authoritarian, or a fascist.
Plus, the MSM has been lying about Trump and what he said for 7 years now. Sorry, I don't care. Its just background noise. Like Mitt Romney or the NYT's calling Trump "a threat to democracy" or "A russian Agent".
If y'all want to keep attacking Trump's rhetoric, go ahead. It makes me go to sleep.
Blogger Robert Cook said...
Immigration, controlled and uncontrolled, of poor and/or desperate persons fleeing shithole countries into ours, seeking better lives, is the story of America, baby!
This is true, of course, but it is also disingenuous and omits a couple of things. Most of our historic immigration was from Europe which has a broadly shared culture of modernity. This immigration was on a smaller scale than what we are seeing now. And finally, and most importantly, there was no generous (or even miserly) welfare system in place, so immigrants were all coming to work and better themselves. Incentives matter.
As I also said in my original post, I think many if not most of the people crossing our southern border are hard working and decent. At least this has historically been the case. I do believe that it is changing somewhat now and more people are coming for the benefits. If you offer free shit to people, they will come for it.
Nice job defending and promoting racists. It's slimy work, but somebody has to stick up for sociopathic brainwashing because free speech.
Meanwhile, illegals get better treatment at airports than citizens....THIS is what Trump means....
Jon Nicosia
@NewsPolitics
We went from 9/11 and no fly lists to illegals flying with no vetting or IDs or payment. If you don’t see what our own government is doing to our country, you’re not paying attention.
https://x.com/BillMelugin_/status/1738362253664252219?s=20
“ Nice job defending and promoting racists. It's slimy work, but somebody has to stick up for sociopathic brainwashing because free speech.”
Do the hard work I outlined or I presume you can’t. Resorting to bullshit accusations like this is a confession of YOUR inadequacy.
Mark said...
Enough. Just enough. No to four more years plus of this. Fair or unfair, I don't care. I'm done. Please let's not put the country through this nonsense.
12/23/23, 9:32 AM
This nonsense is ALL coming from YOUR side. They are lying to America and have been because they hate that Trump proved that we don't even need Congress...since he got things done they promised for years. If you hate REAL progress...you hate Trump. So put on your little pussy hat and sulk like the leftist you are. YOU did this. NOT TRUMP!
I suppose one way to measure the utter absurdity of the Trump-Hitler comparison is to compare Trump's four years in power to Hitler's first three MONTHS in power. Hitler was appointed Chancellor on Jan. 30, 1933. The Reichstag fire in February enabled him to pressure Hindenburg to pass a decree limiting the rights of citizens and allowing Hitler to being eliminating all political opposition. By March, the Enabling Act gave Hitler as Chancellor emergency powers to pass and enforce laws without parliamentary oversight. That is, totalitarian dictatorship.
Three months to ultimate power Adolph. Four years of chaos, a partial wall, the Abraham Accords, and a lost election for the Donald. And I am supposed to worry about Trump? I worry far more about the corrupt and deceitful Harvard Corporation and their figurehead president.
Oh Freder. He seems to have meant the same as Hitler has poisoning the blood by breeding with foreigners.
So you’re saying Trump meant that? Trump who breeds with foreigners? Trump who loves his Jewish daughter and son-in-law? Really stretching for that Hitler comparison! It seems if you can meet Althouse’s challenge of a detailed “side by side” comparison you would have by now instead of wasting our time with your weak sauce analysis of Trump’s language, a subject about which you have a perfect record for being wrong and dishonest.
I thought the good Mark wrote that.
Wait, you mean to tell me that Trump has been misquoted dishonestly and his words edited deceptively to change context and make him look as bad as possible?
This is my shocked face.
I don't believe anything that anybody says about Donald Trump, except Donald Trump, with me watching him say it. And I usually disregard that, too - and watch what he actually does.
Europeans did some work on the cost or benefit of immigrants from various sources of nationality.
you know the claim that they always add to GDP?
Apparently many are negatives, not positives.
I assume this is mainly due to welfare payments.
Just guess if you think Somalia was negative or positive.
BTW, the studied two generations. So they include a kid who's born, educated, and can work, and they still get negative answers for many migrants.
there was no generous (or even miserly) welfare system in place, so immigrants were all coming to work and better themselves. Incentives matter.
Are you fucking kidding me? There was a very generous welfare system. If you got yourself out west there was free land (640 acres) waiting for you. The government subsidized the Western railroads and even cleared the land of bison, antelope and Indians for you, and sent the Army out to protect you from any remaining pesky Indians. And don't even get me started on the 1864 mining law (which amazingly still in effect even though it basically gives away hard rock minerals on Federal land).
BTW, I'm open to the study being wrong. It surprised me.
Do the hard work I outlined or I presume you can’t. Resorting to bullshit accusations like this is a confession of YOUR inadequacy.
Why don't you do the hard work and respond to some of the pertinent criticisms rather than responding to one fatuous, fact free post?
You claimed you would listen to reasoned arguments countering your simplistic argument (you "seem" to to think that the comments were not referring to race but immigrants "who don't speak English and don't share — or want to learn — our values." And what the fuck are exactly our "values"? Plenty of past immigrants didn't speak English, often for generations (e.g., Cajun country in Louisiana where you can still find old people who only speak French, and they have been in Louisiana since they got kicked out of Canada at the end of the Seven Years War, which ended in 17 fucking 63). Lawrence Welk, son of immigrants from Germany, didn't learn English until he was 18, and carried his thick German accent through the rest of his life.
Resorting to bullshit accusations like this is a confession of YOUR inadequacy.
Do the hard work I outlined or I presume you can’t.
Because as far as I can tell, you haven't done the "hard work" you outlined.
What do you think will happen to those countries in their societies if all of their highly competent people leave for the US?
Have you been to a high tier Medical facility lately? Like Mayo, or University of Iowa Medical?
Huge swaths of some of the most respected medicos in the US are foreign born. Are you in favor of keeping them out of US medical schools? So they can use their skill in their native lands?
"Because as far as I can tell, you haven't done the "hard work" you outlined."
I have heard a half-assed anti-Trump argument. I have outlined what needs to be done to make a good anti-Trump argument. I am not the one who is saying Trump is like Hitler. I don't need to refute every accusation that someone is like Hitler. Those who began the argument are motivated to make it work. I infer that they can't. I did some research on the subject and I let you know what found. It would be so valuable to Trump antagonists to complete the argument. That's my contribution. Why am I helping you? What's my motivation? It's not so much a matter of the work being hard but the inferences based on the absence of a complete argument. It's not really even that hard. Get a digital text of "Mein Kampf" an search for the word "blood." Be honest about what H's argument is. Compare it to Trump's. Put your answer here and I will treat you fairly. But your answer is just, no, I should do that for you. If Trump were really like Hitler, you'd have the energy and motivation to do it.
Most of our historic immigration was from Europe which has a broadly shared culture of modernity.
Really?! Do you really think that peasants from England, Ireland, France or Eastern Europe had a "broadly shared culture of modernity". Remember the "shithole" countries of the early twentieth century included Italy ("fucking Dagos and Wops") and the rest of southern and Eastern Europe (especially the "goddamned Jews" fleeing the pogroms of Eastern Europe). Oh yeah, and don't forget the Chinese Exclusion Act which saved us from the "yellow peril".
"... I let you know what found...."
I let you know what I found.
I'm not involved in making pro- or anti- Trump arguments. My thing is to observe what people are saying and to make observations about what's missing or what's between the lines. I make inferences and observations.
I call this "cruel neutrality."
They say that he said something about blood.... Trump opponents should find the Hitler quotes about "blood," put them next to Trump quotes about "blood," and compare the meaning — seriously and accurately.
And what good would that do? You have obviously convinced yourself that Trump's exhortations are nothing like what Hitler said.
Remember when Trump worked with a deal with Russia to invade another country to start a new war? Oh wait, that happened under Biden. Ohh... that's not a fair comparison? Well, it was more effort than anyone has made in the comments here against Trump.
"You claimed you would listen to reasoned arguments countering your simplistic argument (you "seem" to to think that the comments were not referring to race but immigrants "who don't speak English and don't share — or want to learn — our values." And what the fuck are exactly our "values"?"
I think Trump is making thin arguments too, prompting voters to feel suspicious of the people flowing into the country illegally. He throws out general ideas about disease and crime and inability to fit into our society. He expects listeners to have their own beliefs about the good life that we used to have and that's being lost.
And then Freder, who can't make a reasoned argument, immediately attacks the messenger for pointing out he has made no reasoned argument.
Freder. Please expand.
Old and slow,
Don't leave out: a very strong assimilationist ethic in the culture.
Be honest about what H's argument is. Compare it to Trump's
Well, if you can explain why it "seems" Trump's argument is different than Hitlers, then please explain why. Because, honestly, I can't figure out how there is much difference.
I'm not involved in making pro- or anti- Trump arguments.
It certainly seems like you are making a pro-Trump argument, even if you use weasel words like "seems". Oh, and btw, can you point to the last post you made critical of Trump?
'Europeans did some work on the cost or benefit of immigrants from various sources of nationality.'
If immigrants are such a great source of 'our' strength and make our country better, why don't they stay home and make their own countries better?
Their talents can only magically work here?
I wish the Biden side would make more substantive arguments, but they don't flesh out the idea that this illegal immigration is good. So they just concentrate on the idea that anyone who says it's bad is a racist or a Nazi or devoid of empathy.
I've been watching this impoverished back and forth for 8 years. It's terrible! There is no depth and no leadership.
'I think Trump is making thin arguments too, prompting voters to feel suspicious of the people flowing into the country illegally. He throws out general ideas about disease and crime and inability to fit into our society. He expects listeners to have their own beliefs about the good life that we used to have and that's being lost.'
Those arguments mean little to me.
My first reason to dislike illegal immigration is the fact that 100% of illegals have broken American law.
I don't want to live side-by-side with criminals...
He throws out general ideas about disease and crime and inability to fit into our society. He expects listeners to have their own beliefs about the good life that we used to have and that's being lost.
That, Ms. Althouse, is an almost a dictionary definition of bullshit. Apparently, your argument is that Trump is spouting bullshit but those who think he is full of bullshit have to argue against his bullshit statements.
How exactly would that work? If I claim he "seems" to be spewing bullshit, does that constitute the "hard work" you require? Because as far as I can tell, the entirety of your argument is that it "seems" to you that Trump is not echoing Hitler.
I wish the Biden side would make more substantive arguments, but they don't flesh out the idea that this illegal immigration is good. So they just concentrate on the idea that anyone who says it's bad is a racist or a Nazi or devoid of empathy.
Who exactly is claiming that "this illegal immigration is good"? Certainly not me. I notice that you want the "Biden side would make more substantive arguments", but say nothing about the Trump side throwing "out general ideas about disease and crime and inability to fit into our society. He expects listeners to have their own beliefs about the good life that we used to have and that's being lost."
And provide one solid example of how illegal immigration is destroying "the good life that we used to have and that's being lost."
I infer that they can't. I did some research on the subject and I let you know what found.
Actually, you didn't let us know what you found, other than the vague contention that "[t]he Trump "blood" quotes seem to be about immigrants who don't speak English and don't share — or want to learn — our values." And if the immigrants "don't share - or want to learn - our values", how can they possibly "poison our blood" if they don't want to assimilate? Your argument makes no sense.
Althouse. It is not possible to provide a rationale for the current situation, or the situation for a decade, and so they don’t. Normals are appalled at the flaunting of the law at the border a lot more than they are concerned with the quality of the people coming across. Normals know that if they broke a law they would be punished. So the fundamental issue is whether we have a border at all or if we have allowed our country to be seen as a battered wife shelter. Come one come all. So the “conversation” on both sides steers away from the obvious.there has to be a hard reset. But all but Trump lack the courage.
Still not reading good arguments FOR open borders here. Is the collective left that bereft of argument? Do I have step up for you from the right and make your arguments?
Freder, the more vituperative you become the more you convince those of us watching that you have no real answers, no real understanding of Hitler's notions about blood and Aryan superiority, no real understanding of the movement Hitler led and controlled, no ability to grasp how little Trump's rantings about blood a la immigration, his past actions as president, his entire personality have to do with Hitler or anything remotely like Hitler. The resort to the Hitler analogy in American politics is based on lazy ignorance. It is almost always a sign that those employing it have no real argument.
Which is more like Hitler?
A. Trump
B. Hamas
Bonus points for recognizing which the Biden Administration is funding and which it wants barred from ever holding office.
You are simply overthinking this, Althouse.
Trump has never read Mein Kampf and doesn’t care what’s in it. He likes the speech texts that he gets from Stephen Miller & co., and he knows that they are getting the desired results. Stirring people up, trolling the media, exciting the extremist base.
But the reason the story sticks, is because of what has stuck with Trump. It was Ivana’s outing of the fact that Trump’s friend Marty Davis gave him a copy of Hitler’s speeches. And he did keep it at his bedside according to Ivana. And when writers found out about it and questioned Trump about it, he came up with one of his stories; that Marty Davis was a Jew and so that made it okay, and oh by the way he never read it.
That’s the level we’re talking about. Not some graduate-level seminar on the Literature of National Socalism, 1915-1945.
Freder:
"Without evidence, [Trump} claims "they" are emptying prisons, Mental Health Facilities, and insane asylums (who even uses that term any more) with out telling us who "they" are."
**********
"Freder to the White Courtesy phone, for a call from the out-going Democrat governor of Louisiana."
https://www.foxnews.com/us/outgoing-louisiana-gov-john-bel-edwards-pardons-56-inmates-40-convicted-murderers
No hard work is required when a obviously racist statement is made by Trump. Trump said it all he did the hard work to prove his pandering to racists.
What proof do you need that the Sun warms the earth?
Kirk Parker said...
Old and Slow,
"I'd like us to bring lots of well educated people from countries that broadly share our values to the United States."
Not just no, but hell no! What have you got against the rest of the world, that you would like to deprive them of their best and brightest? What do you think will happen to those countries in their societies if all of their highly competent people leave for the US?
******************
I dunno....what happened when millions of immigrants came to the american colonies, and then to the United States during the 19th and early 20th centuries....did their home countries fall apart???
Freder said:
And provide one solid example of how illegal immigration is destroying "the good life that we used to have and that's being lost."
***************
You moron. American citizen TAXPAYERS are paying for these millions to live here.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/study-find-nearly-3-in-5-illegal-alien-households-are-on-taxpayer-funded-welfare/ar-AA1lS2Zh
A recent analysis by the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) reveals that nearly 60 percent of households led by illegal immigrants use some form of welfare, while about 52 percent of households led by legal immigrants also use welfare, compared to fewer than 40 percent of native-born American households.
The study highlights that immigrant-led households use more food stamps, Medicaid benefits, and the Earned Income Tax Credit than native-born households.
The report comes as the foreign-born population in the U.S. reaches record highs under President Joe Biden, with an increase of 4.5 million since January 2021.
“This is primarily because the American welfare system is designed in large part to help low-income families with children, which describes a large share of immigrants,” CIS researchers reported.
“Compared to households headed by the United States-born, immigrant-headed households have especially high use of food programs (36 percent vs. 25 percent for the U.S.-born), Medicaid (37 percent vs. 25 percent for the U.S.-born), and the Earned Income Tax Credit (16 percent vs. 12 percent for the U.S.-born),” CIS researchers state."
Go ahead, tell us we can afford it, or that we should open up our hearts and wallets, and whatever bullshit response you will offer.
And, NO, the earlier waves of immigrants didn't have a welfare system to leech off.
They say that he said something about blood.... Trump opponents should find the Hitler quotes about "blood," put them next to Trump quotes about "blood," and compare the meaning — seriously and accurately. There's a great anti-Trump argument to be made, if the material aligns very well. If the argument is not made, I'm going to presume it can't be made. I put a little effort into this task myself, and the Hitler "blood" quotes I saw were about interbreeding and mixed race children. The Trump "blood" quotes seem to be about immigrants who don't speak English and don't share — or want to learn — our values. I'm wary of the Trump-is-Hitler propagandists, but if they do the hard, honest work of developing their argument, I will listen. If they don't, I'm holding it against them.
You're so funny. I mean, seriously, Althouse, if Trump opponents EVER did "the hard, honest work of developing their argument", it would be the first time.
These are the garbage people who demand that social media censor everyone they disagree with, not because the people to be censored are wrong, but simply because the leftists don't want to actually have to make an honest argument.
At what point will you start holding their dishonesty against them?
"Are you fucking kidding me? There was a very generous welfare system. If you got yourself out west there was free land (640 acres)"
If you think that a free section of dirt west of the Rockies constituted "welfare", then you are further detached from reality than I imagined. If anything, it was a ticket to back breaking hard work with some slim chance of big success.
when new york can't handled 100,000 that was fewer than Miami had to deal with in 1980, maybe dumping 10 milion into the country, with fewer skills, some with hostile intent,
certainly Londinistan and the banlieus of continental europe that exploded in bataclan and malbeek a few years ago, illustrate the problem
Good news Field Marshall Freder!
Fellow leftists, realizing the Hitler "thing" doesn't seem to be moving any needles, dropped in Mussolini and Orban as dictators Trump is like!
Whew!
Just in time.
These days, You've got to keep a full back pocket of dictators/semi-dictators/supposed-wannabe dictators names ready to go if you want to be "effective" in online discussions!
Freder. Please expand.
You misspelled FOAD.
Like the famous Howard said, "Down goes Freder! Down goes Freder!"
Old and slow said...
"Are you fucking kidding me? There was a very generous welfare system. If you got yourself out west there was free land (640 acres)"
If you think that a free section of dirt west of the Rockies constituted "welfare", then you are further detached from reality than I imagined. If anything, it was a ticket to back breaking hard work with some slim chance of big success.
********
Homestead Act was passed in 1862, and it "awarded" 160 acres, not 640. Other provisions:
"Requirements of the Homestead Act
To make a claim, homesteaders paid a filing fee of $18: a $10 fee to make a temporary claim on the land, $2 for commission to the land agent and an additional $6 final payment to receive an official patent on the land. Land titles could also be **purchased** from the government for $1.25 per acre following six months of proven residency.
Additional requirements included five years of continuous residence on the land, building a home on it, farming the land and making improvements. Homesteaders, who had to be the head of a household or 21 years of age and had to certify they had never borne arms against the United States, also needed two neighbors or friends to attest to the government that they had fulfilled the requirements. Union soldiers could shave off time served in the Civil War from the five-year residency requirement."
Yep, sounds like welfare to me!!!!
SNORT
"It is almost always a sign that those employing it have no real argument."
Here is their argument:
1. Hitler was bad and needed to be stopped by any means necessary.
2. Trump is literally Hitler.
3. Anything done to stop Trump can be justified by the need to have stopped Hitler.
Jim at said...
Freder. Please expand.
"You misspelled FOAD."
Jim. I would really like to hear a reasoned argument for his position. I have all kinds of practical reasons why illegal immigration is a bad idea. I have yet to hear ANY reason why it is a good idea.
Darkisland said...
"In the calculus of horrors, which country was more horrible?"
Who cares?
Kevin said...
Which is more like Hitler?
A. Trump
B. Hamas
How about neither? How about Hitler and Nazis are who stupid extremists run to when they can't say they don't understand someone they don't like? Zionists have killed 20,000 civilians, making them more like Hitler and the Nazis than anybody.
Worse than pedantic Freder is boring and repetitive and bullying. Just like Biden. At least Trump is entertaining and still has a sense of humor.
From Mein Kampf:
How then did it happen that the political instincts of this very same German people became so degenerate? For it was not merely one isolated phenomenon which pointed to this decadence, but morbid symptoms which appeared in alarming numbers, now all over the body politic, or eating into the body of the nation like a gangrenous ulcer. It seemed as if some all-pervading poisonous fluid had been injected by some mysterious hand into the bloodstream of this once heroic body, bringing about a creeping paralysis that affected the reason and the elementary instinct of self-preservation.
Thanks, John!
Let's analyze grok's arguments:
"Economic benefits:
a. According to a study by the National Bureau of Economic Research, immigration (including illegal immigration) leads to increased economic growth, as immigrants contribute to the labor force and create new businesses."
On the NBER website, I found a study from 2016 that purports to make the case: Immigrant Entrepreneurship - the paper is in a downloadable PDF and is rather long, but here's part of its conclusion:
"The constructed data platform provides new statistics regarding the patterns of business formation by immigrant entrepreneurs and the medium-term success of those businesses. The definition of an entrepreneur used in this study is in many ways dictated by the coverage of the LBD and the LEHD, and hence it is useful to compare our calculations and estimates to those derived from other data sources. Looking back at Table 1, our results tend to fall in the upper-end of the estimates for the immigrant entrepreneur share. There are several factors potentially at work. First, the LEHD data does not identify the actual founders of businesses, and we maybe are over- or under-inclusive in our definition using the top three initial earners. We have yet to identify a technique to quantify this effect relative to other definitions possible for founders. One of the most feasible comparisons may be business ownership records in the SBO (e.g., Fairlie,2008, 2012). Ownership estimates will be higher than entrepreneurship estimates due to the larger existing stock of native small business owners compared to new …rm formation, and so we do not expect this difference to close. But through the study of new entrants captured in the SBO, perhaps the entrepreneurship metrics can be enhanced or their properties better defined. Beyond immigrant shares of entrepreneurs, rates of entry are more difficult to reconcile."
I'm not convinced that the study really makes the case.
Continued...
"b. Illegal immigrants often take on low-paying jobs that many Americans are unwilling to do, such as farm work and construction. This helps to keep the cost of goods and services down for all Americans."
Not necessarily a good thing for immigrants, regardless of how they entered the US. It could be seen - very easily - as exploitation. It ignores the fact that many of them do receive certain welfare benefits which have to be paid out of tax dollars.
"c. The Social Security Administration estimates that illegal immigrants contribute billions of dollars to the Social Security Trust Fund each year, despite not being eligible to receive benefits."
Yet. See Cloward-Piven.
More...
"Cultural diversity:
a. The United States is a melting pot of different cultures, and the presence of immigrants from various countries enriches the cultural fabric of the nation."
True up to a point, but not all immigrants, legal entrants or not, are into the melting pot thing. Certain neighborhoods in the Twin Cities, for example.
"b. Immigrants bring new ideas, customs, and perspectives, which can lead to increased innovation and creativity in various fields, such as the arts, science, and technology."
Or they may bring their own prejudices and ideologies that are not related to the above and which have turned out to be detrimental to an inclusive society.
b. Illegal immigrants often take on low-paying jobs that many Americans are unwilling to do, such as farm work and construction. This helps to keep the cost of goods and services down for all Americans.
The second order effect of this argument is why I oppose illegal immigration. In order for that argument to work the next day, the immigrants must remain illegal. That means we created a second class of people that are stateless people that is acceptable for businesses to exploit. I have never understood why people who call themselves liberal are ok with this.
I know some are not and blame Bush for this argument, but then what is the excuse when these immigrants don’t take jobs? We have now seen that play out in Chicago and NYC. Suddenly welfare programs are overwhelmed and unable to keep up. Citizens that counted on a safety net find that the net has been given to people who just got here.
Meanwhile, the poor countries that lost these immigrants also lost the workforce they need to become prosperous. This perpetuates the problems that exist in those places.
And as Grok ends with the caveat, let’s not forget the importance of it. A fair and just immigration system does exist and millions use it everyday to enter this and most every other country every year.
Current estimates of the financial costs of illigal immigrants in the USA at present run as high as 300 billion per year. 200b to 250b is a more likely to me after researching several sources. Civil costs are harder to quantify, but look to several European countries and the few hard to understand studies made there to make your own conclusions.
Anyone who argues that the life "blood", both financial and the civic order of our country, isn't being destroyed is not a serious person, or is unfamiliar with the English language.
"Blogger Robert Cook said...
'Immigration, controlled and uncontrolled, of poor and/or desperate persons fleeing shithole countries into ours, seeking better lives, is the story of America, baby!"
"This is true, of course, but it is also disingenuous and omits a couple of things. Most of our historic immigration was from Europe which has a broadly shared culture of modernity. This immigration was on a smaller scale than what we are seeing now. And finally, and most importantly, there was no generous (or even miserly) welfare system in place, so immigrants were all coming to work and better themselves. Incentives matter.
"As I also said in my original post, I think many if not most of the people crossing our southern border are hard working and decent. At least this has historically been the case. I do believe that it is changing somewhat now and more people are coming for the benefits. If you offer free shit to people, they will come for it."
The gross number of immigrants to this country is greater today than in the past, but their number as a percentage of the total population of the US is far lower than historically. Immigrants to America were at their greatest number as a percentage of the total population way back in 1910. It has steadily dropped since then.
Arguing about the Hitlerishness of Trump brings to mind the criticism of Lillian Hellman by Mary McCarthy on the Dick Cavett Show in 1978:
When Mr. Cavett asked what was “dishonest” about Miss Hellman, Miss McCarthy answered, “Everything.” Miss McCarthy continued, “I once said in an interview that every word she writes is a lie, including ‘and’ and ‘the.'”
That, for me, about covers the subject of Trump channeling Hitler.
"Immigration, controlled and uncontrolled, of poor and/or desperate persons fleeing shithole countries into ours, seeking better lives, is the story of America, baby!"
This argument is so stupid it's hard to believe people still try to make it. To have any chance of logic you have to believe that the conditions of 2020 are the same as existed in the 1800s. Sorry folks. Go west young man is a thing of the past.
Not just no, but hell no! What have you got against the rest of the world, that you would like to deprive them of their best and brightest? What do you think will happen to those countries in their societies if all of their highly competent people leave for the US?????
Wow this is nonsense....
OK, how do we keep the best and brightest from being the ones most able to get to America? Should we seek, even incentivize, the LEAST best and brightest in order to help their homelands while we get incompetent people by the millions?
Leland said...
b. Illegal immigrants often take on low-paying jobs that many Americans are unwilling to do, such as farm work and construction. This helps to keep the cost of goods and services down for all Americans.
The second order effect of this argument is why I oppose illegal immigration. In order for that argument to work the next day, the immigrants must remain illegal. That means we created a second class of people that are stateless people that is acceptable for businesses to exploit. I have never understood why people who call themselves liberal are ok with this.
Bingo. What this argument boils down to is "if we don't let illegals in, business owners won't be able to abuse their employees, violate labor laws, and trample on all our labor protections!"
And the people making this argument seem to think for some reason that they're actually good people
"'Immigration, controlled and uncontrolled, of poor and/or desperate persons fleeing shithole countries into ours, seeking better lives, is the story of America, baby!'
"This argument is so stupid it's hard to believe people still try to make it."
Ha! It's not an "argument," but a statement of fact. I do not make this statement of fact to justify opening all doors and allowing all who wish to flood into our country unimpeded or unrecorded. I merely point out that most people compelled in the past to leave their homes in other parts of the world and travel to this new land did so over the decades and centuries because they were seeking something better here than they had or could expect in their home countries, many fleeing circumstances of violence, oppression, or starvation. These are the same motives driving those seeking to immigrate here today. They are NOT, predominately, criminals or mules for the drug cartels or looking to come and "live easy" off welfare. They are not animals and they are not poison to our "blood." They want obtain the freedom and opportunity for prosperity that American has always offered to those in need, as in the inscription on the Statue of Liberty:
"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
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