December 17, 2023
"A majority of young Americans said they believe Israel should 'be ended and given to Hamas,' according to a shocking poll."
"... Harvard-Harris polling found 51% of Americans between the ages of 18 and 24 said they believed the long-term answer to the Israel-Palestinian conflict was for 'Israel to be ended and given to Hamas and the Palestinians.'
Only 32% said they believed in a two-state solution, and just 17% said other Arab states should be asked to absorb Palestinian populations...."
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141 comments:
A majority of young Americans should be ignored.
Anyone who found this shocking hasn't been paying attention.
It's only shocking if you didn't know who is doing the teaching in schools these days. Those same young Americans believe the world is ending soon because of gas stoves and cow farts and that they can change their sexes any time they like, too.
Disappointing, yes. Shocking? Sadly, no.
Israel, and its American supporters, have reaped what they've sown.
Genocide against the Palestinians and the whole "we'll kill 20 civilans for every one of ours" isn't a good look. So, young people are turning against it. What makes even more enemies for israel is there constant obnoxious attacks on everyone who criticizes them as "antisemites".
Keep using the Holocaust to justify killing innocent Arab civilians and committ war crimes, and people will start to think the Holocaust is just another racket, used to Justify anything.
Boomers, of course, are a lost cause. Most of them love to bomb and kill brown people, and love the pseudo-tough guy stance of "Those women and Kids deserve to die". Too bad we can't parachute some of these Old time Keyboard Kommandos - like Pelosi or Miss Lindsey - into Gaza with a M-16. Then they could kill some little kids before Hamas took them out. And they'd die happy.
Shocking? Jew hatred persists, and progs have turned support for terror into a point of pride. It's the oppressed fighting back against their oppressors, you see, just one step toward "decolonization," i.e., extermination. When people say what they mean, believe them.
As always, the Jews are first in line for demonization and destruction. But not last. The prog-jihadist alliance is coming for the rest of us soon enough.
So young. So full of promise. I see many PhDs and presidents of Harvard in their futures.
TikTok must die.
It's not so shocking, given that they're being taught boys can be girls, Earth is about to explode, and history is what the teacher says it is.
Not really shocking. Young people fully believe the whole "colonizer" and "white oppressor" crap that they were feed by in high school, college and by social media.
DEI and ESG are the two most dangerous mind viruses out there. And they are at the core of today's Dems. Bill Ackman and some other Jews are finally figuring this out.
they believed the long-term answer to the Israel-Palestinian conflict was for 'Israel to be ended and given to Hamas and the Palestinians.'
Ivy League kids are calling it a Final Solution.
The EDU crowd did that. All they wanted was Arab oil money.
One of those "beautiful dreams" Michelle Goldberg was looking for.
Can I get a respondent breakdown by race and level of education, please.
Did the 51% think ovens would be necessary for the implementation?
It would be interesting to know the breakdown between those in or completed college/university versus those with no college/university.
Great job Jared Kushner.
Nothing shocking about it. If you can move 7 million Palestinians then you can move 7 million Zionists instead. See how they like it.
What a depressing factoid to read today.
"From the river to the sea." When asked what river, what sea, the 18-24 year olds overwhelmingly responded the Mississippi river and the Atlantic ocean.
In which poll the American educational apparatus receives its grade.
Poll results reflect pervasive disinterest in world history and fundamental lack of intellectual curiosity of America's young adults, to conclude that "Israel belongs to Hamas". This poll is what results from decades of progressive DEI advocacy and religious devotion to of "victimhood" politics: self-destruction.
Careful reading of published Hamas speeches and written statements indicates openly-expressed intent to ultimately conquer, enslave and abuse non-Moslem peoples, including Israel, Europe, and the Americas. "Genocide" is embraced by Hamas, not by Israel. I've come around to see continued existence of Israel-state as vital to European and North American interests.
And who says that all this far-left indoctrination in the colleges and universities isn't working?
If your children believe Israel doesn’t have a right to exist or that the Holocaust never happened, you can thank their teachers.
I’m sure Jordan is happy no one recognizes them as the obvious answer.
The 18-24-year-olds say they support a final solution involving another Jewish extermination but all they mean is that they would give up if they were Israelis as they themselves have given up their American freedoms in the universities. But what have they lost - so far? They're serfs but happy serfs, playing video games and doing little real work. And they think the situation in Israel would be similar. They do not acknowledge the atrocities of October 7 or the Holocaust. in short, Gaza's plan is another Jewish genocide and it has shown how willingly it would carry out the brutality implied. And Israel has taken note and will fight to the death. Those are the realities. But the 18-24-year-olds are serfs, hiding from their serf status in fantasy worlds both on screen and off. Their reality is unreality.
I have a crazy idea. How about if everyone just stayed where they are, but Hamas stops trying to wipe out Israel.
Everyone could be peaceful and at home!
We've allowed the Left to indoctrinate these youngsters to consider "the oppressed" du jour as saints and "oppressors" as the worst evil EVAH. Add to that the teaching of "social studies" rather than sourced history and you have not just the denial of the Holocaust but an strain of anti-Semitism that rivals Germany of 1934.
We need to de-Nazify our educational system ... whether the person wears a Che t-shirt or keffiyeh.
This didn't happen overnight. It is the entirely predictable consequence of 20+ years of critical race theory taking over the humanities curricula of university and secondary schools. Despite warnings from conservatives (or maybe because it was only conservatives saying it), Jewish donations and support continued to flow to institutions and politicians that propagandized young Americans with this racist marxist worldview. Now, all Americans will be forced to deal with a generation of young voters who are deeply anti-semitic as well as anti-capitalist.
The Daily Mail has an article up about young Americans in the military. These kids are fat losers.
That's funny; in the Althooze-Middlebindle poll, 81% of those between ages 48 and 84 said they believed young Americans should be summoned up and "given to Iran." Almost 14% preferred gathering the youths and setting them free in the north Atlantic to find new homes. 5% were unfamiliar with the issue.
Harvard? Harris? It must be correct, since neither organization has political motivations that probably don't reflect the opinions of those that produce something other than words.
Well, that's just stupid, and reveals the ignorance of many young people of how the world really works. The only solution is either a true two-state solution, or the erasure of the notion of Israel as being a "Jewish state" and it becoming simply a cosmopolitan nation with a population of Jews and non-Jews, all with equal legal standing and equal rights, none with any special claim on the state or the law, all with equal rights to travel and live anywhere they wish. You know, like other modern nations with populations composed of people from many ancestries, national origins, ethnicities and religious creeds.
Isn't that one of the things that makes America so great? Just imagine if our founders had established the USA has a "white nation", or as a "Christian nation." Many in our history have believed our nation to be one or the other (or both), and to that extent, much violence and woe has been the result. If it had been officially so established, who knows what the state of our nation today would be? Probably much worse than it is.
It's frightening what our schools have done to our children.
Considering the general tenor of how these young people think, color me unsurprised, and also unmoved. When I was that age I was a walking illustration of Churchill's maxim, and I'd expect no less of these kids - except that too many of them no longer grow up and grow the brain that used to come with age.
What is this, voting for Prom Queen?
Thanks a lot, boomers, for your New Agey conviction that "the children shall lead." Even Crack, self-declared bête noir of the New Agers, has been taken in by that one - if memory serves, he is in fact a boomer, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised, but generally he shows more sense than to hold up the opinions of callow youths as exemplars of right thinking.
Unlike the media, which absolutely thinks I, nearer 60 than 50, ought to do as these young Churchillian balls of emotion say.
I’d like to see that cohort’s opinion sorted according to exposure to modern college propaganda. The pro-Palestinian and “death to Isreal” chants on campuses should be no surprise.
Your old video blogging friend Glenn Loury has a recent video on this topic.
Thank God Crack is here. I don't the energy to fight back against the constant (and often deliberate) stupidity and dishonesty on the Israel-Palestine question.
Yeah, 15,000 Palestinans civilians killed, hospitals destroyed, water and food cut off, and a million driven from their homes.
But Israel is the REAL victim. Poor little genocidal country.
Unbelievable.
"Who Had..." meme:
"Ok- who had "Leftists support Final Solution" in December?"
The problem for 51% of Young Americans is the Israeli’s don’t agree.
Hamas can’t take Israel. They are pussies. Whiners. Like 51% of Young Americans.
Yahweh continues to kick Allah’s ass. And Allah continues to whine. Just as Allah whined when Jesus kicked the Muslims out of Spain. Allah is a loser.
Perhaps Muslims should turn to Ares. He’s not around anymore but his record was better than Allah’s. And Ares didn’t whine.
"Jewish donations and support continued to flow to institutions and politicians that propagandized young Americans with this racist marxist worldview."
Due to the WWII Holocaust, they felt they had a prominent position on the Intersectionality Totem Pole. Turns out, not so much.
Fuck off Crack. You'd like to exterminate the Jews, we know this. Sorry to hear that SF cancelled the reparations. You must be gutted!
Rocean.
Every time you post about Israel a puppy dies.
Well. They also believe that America should be "ended and sold to pay off their student loans". Simple solutions have their appeal.
A few PSAs are needed on TikTok etc which describe what life is like in Muslim countries for women and LGBTQ people.
At least they have a clearer understanding of the situation than Cookie:
"the erasure of the notion of Israel as being a "Jewish state" and it becoming simply a cosmopolitan nation with a population of Jews and non-Jews, all with equal legal standing and equal rights, none with any special claim on the state or the law, all with equal rights to travel and live anywhere they wish."
Maybe you could write that one some stone tablets, Cookie. Bring 'em down from a mountaintop. Do you have a plan worked out for how they divvy up the nukes? Better use some extra-heavy-duty stone tablets for that one.
My reaction to this poll is similar to my reaction to much of what has been going on recently, from the persistence of mask wearing to the glorification of George Floyd, to the obsession with Taylor Swift: pity. I no longer try to convince people who disagree with me that they are wrong. Instead, I feel sorry for those who believe, for example, that human-caused climate change will kill everybody in a decade or two. Or that there would be no Islamist terrorists if the Jews were not living in their biblical homeland.
The same attitude informs how I react to a few of the commenters on Althouse. Why waste time trying to convince rocean or Crack that Jews are not evil?
Hamas 7th Century Death Cult Crack: "Nothing shocking about it. If you can move 7 million Palestinians then you can move 7 million Zionists instead. See how they like it."
Go for it loser.
Let us know how it turns out (Spoiler: We already know how it turns out)
rcocean: "Israel, and its American supporters, have reaped what they've sown."
Really? How is that?
Readering: "Great job Jared Kushner."
LOL
And you wonder why everyone laughs and points at you.
"Careful reading of published Hamas speeches and written statements indicates openly-expressed intent to ultimately conquer, enslave and abuse non-Moslem peoples, including Israel, Europe, and the Americas. "Genocide" is embraced by Hamas, not by Israel. I've come around to see continued existence of Israel-state as vital to European and North American interests."
You mean, because if the Israelis don't wipe the bastards out, it's only a matter of time before they take over Caliphornia? Kind of hard to visualize ... I guess maybe with enough support from the UNRWA ... they do seem partial to beachfront ...
Crack: "Nothing shocking about it. If you can move 7 million Palestinians then you can move 7 million Zionists instead. See how they like it."
With this piece of abject ignorance you forfeited the miniscule bit of credibility you had left.
We have people claiming to be grownups posting here and elsewhere who are as stupid as that.
"becoming simply a cosmopolitan nation"
Once upon a time, Jews were vilified for being too "cosmopolitan." Now they're vilified for not being cosmopolitan enough. What might these forms of vilification have in common?
"like other modern nations with populations composed of people from many ancestries, national origins, ethnicities and religious creeds"
IOW, just like China loves its non-Han Chinese and Korea is crazy about inviting in non-Koreans and Japan about taking in non-Japanese and Egypt about non-Egyptians and Saudi-Arabia about all those Muslim asylum seekers flooding the country--oh, wait. Might there be a reason why Israel is singled out for cosmopolitan instruction by its moral superiors abroad?
Since the word Bedouin has been excised, the collapse of religion and public schooling, things have gotten snarled.
Even Crack wouldn't answer what is under Temple Mount.
Dalrymple has some thoughts on contemporary youth.
https://www.city-journal.org/article/the-therapeutic-turn
18 to 24 year olds are a pretty foolish bunch in western society. I was going to school at the time and believed I was a lot smarter than my parents. Not a very attractive demographic, except to themselves. They are pissed that they don’t have trust funds. The Palestinians have a big trust fund, but they don’t use it to create future wealth, they should look at the money
Indian tribes have from casinos and learn what is best for their children. Living well is the best and healthiest revenge for old grievance.
why not to PLO or PLF or whoever?
In high school, I remember being completely ambivalent to the entire Middle-East turmoil.
Not today.
Hell... Harvard should be ended and given to Texas A&M.
The Aggies know 10x more than those Harvard pukes.
rcocean said...
Israel, and its American supporters, have reaped what they've sown.
Genocide against the Palestinians and the whole "we'll kill 20 civilans for every one of ours" isn't a good look. So, young people are turning against it.
***********
Yeah, those kids who spend absolutely no time following news and current events somehow believe Israel's policy---which you quote---is to "kill 20 civilans for every one of ours".
And somehow they believe that Israel commits genocide against the Palestinians, even though Gaza's population has been steadily increasing over the years.
And even though roughly 50,000 Palestinians were legally employed in the cuntry, with an estimate of an addtional 30,000 being illegally employed, before October 7..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_workers_in_Israel
SNORT
and @ Robert Cook. Israel is home to about 2 million Arabs and 500,000 Christians, all of whom have equal rights as citizens. So no bullshit, please, about Israel *becoming* a cosmopolitan nation of Jews and non-Jews. It already is.
Cook, you don't have to keep proving how ignorant and biased you are.
A majority of Americans 18-24 are complete morons, as are large segments of all American age cohorts, including even Greatest Gen II (sometimes dismissed as Boomers).
It seems to me that the scenario in which all the holy sites in the region--very much including Mecca and who knows what--go up in mushroom clouds is more plausible every day.
What exactly do you believe Crack besides the 1619 project
The new Minnesota flag looks amazingly like the flag for the Puntland region of Somalia.
The scary part is that most of those young people don't regard themselves as anti-Semitic. They think of themselves as idealistic and peace loving.....So it goes. The young favor the underdog. In the Gaza/Israel war, Israel is not the underdog, but on the global stage, they certainly are.....It wasn't so long ago that young people were rooting for Chavez or Ortega. Those underdogs were able to take power. That worked out well. So now Now young people can move onto Hamas....Two state solution: what rot. Ask the Coptics and the Palestinians Christians how things are working out for them in Muslim majority societies.... Thus spake Zarathustra: Get me out of Iran. I can't live here.
More or less the same percentage who 60 years ago would have supported Soviet communism and believed that America should have been replaced by that.
This is funded by Qatari propaganda infiltrating the universities. If people want it to be stopped it can be - at least in the free West. OTOH there’s no cure for stubborn ignorance and a generation of idiots who think that 10-second videos on a Chinese web server are a great way to learn about history, civilization and justice.
If you want to see how ignorant these people are go to any YouTube video where most of the commenters have Arabic names. Talking to these people is like talking to a brick wall. They’re filled with all sorts of blather about how jihads are fought for freedom. Yep. That’s the cause that rcocean and Crack Emcee have gotten on board with. A country whose first president assured the Tuoro synagogue congregants that “the stock of Abraham would merit and enjoy the good will of the other inhabitants,” and these two miscreants are siding with the the ideological heirs to the Barbary pirates, who started the first war faced by the United States simply for not being a part of the Islamic supremacist jihad it was facing from 1801 - 1816.
That’s the cause championed by jihadi-sympathizers rcocean and Crack Emcee. This conflict is not new and it is not unknown to America. rcocean and Crack Emcee are taking their cues from campus radicals who were instructed by the Qatari and Iranian propaganda ministries. That’s how un-American they really are.
You need to see this
https://legalinsurrection.com/2023/12/gaza-idf-uncovers-hamas-tunnel-network-wide-enough-for-vehicles-to-pass-through-near-israel-border/
AID $$$$$$$$$$?
The Boomers, who marched in the streets sixty years ago on behalf of ending the Vietnam war and enacting civil rights, are now (absurdly) derided here in a comment about how much they love to bomb black and brown people. Let's see where the currently only half-baked 18-24 year olds stand on war and peace a decade or two from now, let alone six decades. We might end up very surprised.
If America is so evil, then it must be dr
Destroyed so the butcher of the pla the iranians
I suspect you'd have the same people - in similar numbers - saying the same thing about conservatives.
We're not voting our way out of this.
Great job Jared Kushner.
OK. I'll bite.
Just what in the hell does Jared Kushner have to do with left-wing hate towards Jews?
When I was young man I had a friend who drank too much. For a time, in the course of his drinking he would bemoan the refusal of a young woman to return his love. He would go on at great length to avow all of the things he would do to plight his troth to said maiden. For instance, he would crawl a mile over broken glass, etc. Finally a mutual acquaintance having had enough said "Yeah Gab, you'd do anything for Cindy but straighten up, quit drinking, get a job, an treat her right."
I see that as being the Palestinians problem. They'd do anything but try to get along with the Israelis.
And I don't enjoy seeing anyone being killed. But I do know when you start you should not be surprised, particularly when you pick on someone stronger. And as for the point being made, of course the Palestinian children didn't vote for Hamas, but neither did all those fifteen year olds who were in the Wehrmacht at the end of WWII.
I don't know that it can ever be settled. Sometimes I think the Palestinians would be happier to live in squalor than to prosper if it meant acting like Israelis.
When I look at the present generations I think about how some of us have been railing against this for half a century, and now that it may well be too late people are starting to realize that we were right.
How stupid. 100% the blame of the US education establishment
Blogger The Crack Emcee said...
Nothing shocking about it. If you can move 7 million Palestinians then you can move 7 million Zionists instead. See how they like it.
Or neither get moved.
The only solution is either a true two-state solution, or the erasure of the notion of Israel as being a "Jewish state" and it becoming simply a cosmopolitan nation with a population of Jews and non-Jews, all with equal legal standing and equal rights, none with any special claim on the state or the law, all with equal rights to travel and live anywhere they wish. You know, like other modern nations with populations composed of people from many ancestries, national origins, ethnicities and religious creeds.
If you think that’s what Palestinians want or would accept you really are as naive and uneducated as the college kidz. As it stands what you are describing actually exists in Israel, with Druze, Bedouin, and some other Arab and non-minorities increasingly enlisting for IDF service because they know their rights will perish under the Muslim domination that Palestinians fight for. Israel has a 77 ranking by Freedom House. The Pally territories are in the 20s. What they object to is the concept of a Jewish majority that cannot be subjugated by the same (incidentally Palestinian) Islamic supremacists that turned Lebanon into a sectarian bloodbath and that continue to plague the rest of the region, notably Syria but also even the Sunni-led states that Iran is trying to takeover and incorporate into its Shiite theocratic revolution. What does it tell you that even Saudi Arabia has a better shot at liberalizing than the others?
Isn't that one of the things that makes America so great?
Countries like America are the exception. They were basically British imperial, later Commonwealth, possessions that could take their English, Protestant domination for granted at home and in the world. For all other countries national self-determination has been the norm since the 20th century, based on the Westphalian nation-state model 300 hundred years before that ended centuries of religious conflict before it.
You can fight a war against national self-determination, but in an era no less obsessed with identity than any before it - common historical, linguistic and cultural identities will continue to be not only the basis for nationhood but the same rights that you mention. You really are a true communist if you can’t understand that centuries of nationalism in Europe were accompanied by increasing freedoms for a reason - it’s easier for a community to improve its social development if it does so by organizing politically around a shared historical identity with an organic grounding in something real like nationhood/ethnicity, rather than on some fictitious imperial imperative like communism or Islam.
Communism tells people that they’re all identical and have no personal interests other than advancing the proletariat. Islam tells its followers to fight a jihad to reign over Christians and Jews and prohibitively tax them, killing other infidels and anyone who leaves the faith. Both believe that they are destined by fate to take over the world and erase all competitors. And both have never led to freedom. Both kill apostates, but one is definitely growing and implementing its built-in recipe for replacing freedom with a mind-numbing program of theocratic nihilism. Both believe that their ideology is necessarily political and synonymous with the state.
The other polling results for that demo are even more illustrative of the woke brainwashing:
"[A] full 60% of the same demographic said Hamas’ Oct 7 terrorist attack could be “justified by the grievance of Palestinians” — a position held by just 27% of Americans overall.
At the same time, 58% of 18-24 year olds agreed that “Hamas would like to commit genocide against the Jews in Israel.”
When asked if “Israel is committing genocide against those in Gaza or is it just trying to defend itself and
eliminate Hamas,” 60% of Americas age 18-24 said Israel was committing genocide —a view held by just 37% of Americans overall. Meanwhile 53% of young Americans said students should be free to call for the “genocide of jews” without consequences.
A full 67% of 18-24 year olds said they believed Jews “should be treated as oppressors”
Cook says " the erasure of the notion of Israel as being a "Jewish state" and it becoming simply a cosmopolitan nation with a population of Jews and non-Jews, all with equal legal standing and equal rights, none with any special claim on the state or the law, all with equal rights to travel and live anywhere they wish. You know, like other modern nations with populations composed of people from many ancestries, national origins, ethnicities and religious creeds."
And how is "secular, all cultures are equal no matter what" woo-woo going in Europe and America, eh?
Dude, a 'culture' who just used the most barbaric of rape, torture, murder and mutilation against civilians is not the equal of any Judeo-Christian based culture. Period.
In the decade before 1948, Palestine’s Grand Mufti Haj Amin al Husseini was an extended guest of HItler’s in Berlin, heaping affection on him and his cause before training Bosnian Muslim Axis troops, returning to Palestine to plan for a Final Solution there. He started riotous massacres by telling the locals that Jews planned to take over the Dome of the Rock, and rebuffed Nazi offers to take in Jewish children from occupied Europe. His friend the fuehrer said fine, and these refugees were sent to Auschwitz instead. This is the starting point from which the Palestinian national movement began and has never veered since.
Jordan’s king decided to secretly ally himself with the Zionists rather than with this psychotic pain-in-the-ass.
Not only have universities supported communist causes before the current solidarity with Palestinian Islamic supremacism, but they embraced the scientific racism and eugenics movements that were such an important part of the Third Reich - a movement in which they were also probably instrumental. The conservatives are right about the rot in academia. Crack and rcocean sound about as credible as the university presidents brought before Congress weeks ago.
Well I have always known that democrats are fascists. This poll only reinforces that.
I’m sure Jordan is happy no one recognizes them as the obvious answer.
Jordan was no longer a viable choice following the Palestinians' attempted overthrow of their government forced establishment of an apartheid state to mitigate their progress. Deja vu.
Meh. They had a good run.
"Israel should be ended". Isn't that a weird way to pose the question? What does it mean for "Israel" to be "ended"? What happens to the 9 million Israelis after Israel is "ended"? Where do they go? For the non-Jews (mostly Muslims) are left, who provides fire protection and trash removal and medical services?
I assume that the question is posed that way because so many simple-minded people (who apparently nowadays attend Ivy League colleges) can't think past the Israel=Bad stage of analysis.
How about a poll of "How many Americans believe the Ivy League should be ended?" I know how I'd vote.
Young Americans are less and less familiar with the biblical story, which is the story of Israel. The name Israel was given to the patriarch Jacob, grandson of Abraham and Sarah, after a divine encounter in the night, struggling with an angel, or with God (Genesis 32). The name means 'he struggles with God.' Young Americans do not know this story or even much about the rest of the story of the Bible, from Exodus to Exile.
Which is ironic since the concern for justice that characterizes young Americans comes from the Bible itself. The concern for justice is found all through the Bible, particularly the Hebrew prophets. They young may have heard that Dr King called for justice to roll down like waters, but they do not know that he was quoting the Prophet Amos. The young maintain this concern for justice, which is the residue of a religion they know nothing about any longer.
Cook: “ If it had been officially so established [as a white or christian nation], who knows what the state of our nation today would be?”
Interesting thought experiment. Some possible outcomes:
- no Civil War, or perhaps a more honest version pitting free white farmers against large-scale plantation owners on the basis of their economic interests instead of high-horse morality;
- if the war still happened, a more honest Reconstruction, not cutting ex-slaves loose to fend for themselves and then giving up when southern whites resisted. Maybe a black homeland in the middle of the continent like the Nation proposes. Maybe more Liberias and Sierra Leones.
- no torturing the Commerce Clause to take away everyone’s freedom in the 1960s.
- Lots more restrictions on immigration, meaning less industrial exploitation, less inter-ethnic strife, and perhaps a more Scandinavian approach to things.
- Possibly no 1890s colonialism, as why would people from a white country want to mix with all those tropical people? No high-horse “we must free them from the Spanish yoke” crap.
- maybe no US invokvement in WW I and II. Or maybe earlier, worse involvement if we decided we had to help our white Christian siblings the Brits, Dutch, Frogs, etc, Or maybe we would have gone into WWI on the Kraut side, since they are white Christians too, leading to a more even peace, no Versailles, no WWII, no Holocaust.
- a very strong resistance to international free trade and the resulting flight of decent industrial jobs.
Just spitballing. Of course it would be horrible to call ourselves such a thing. But sometimes small horrors stop bigger ones.
JSM
Boy Obama wasn’t kidding when he said he was “Fundamentally transforming the United States of America”.
Cows.
The only solution is either a true two-state solution, or the erasure of the notion of Israel as being a "Jewish state"
Absurd. There are 22 Arab states covering around 5 million square miles. One Jewish state of about 5,000 square miles. And you would eliminate that one. The so-called Palestinian Arabs have demonstrated they have no interest in a genuine two-state solution, so that idea is idiotic as well.
The only solution is either a true two-state solution, or the erasure of the notion of Israel as being a "Jewish state" and it becoming simply a cosmopolitan nation with a population of Jews and non-Jews, all with equal legal standing and equal rights, none with any special claim on the state or the law, all with equal rights to travel and live anywhere they wish.
Well. Considering that the denizens of Gaza have, according to very recent polling minimal interest in a "true two-state solution," and that Israel already is the multicultural, multiethnic, and multi-religious* state you suggest, I guess we're done here.
Except that the "Palestinians," according to polling, want no Jews.
* What is it, 20% of Israel that's Muslim? And how many non-observant Jews? Can the US claim such a multi-religious society?
What percentage of these kids can even locate Israel on a map?
How many of them went to schools that did not identify Israel on a map?
Cook, what a great idea! Have Israel be a state like any other, with a mix of different peoples.
Too back Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia haven't done that! Even though they started out with Christians and Jews (and other groups) somehow those different peoples aren't there any more.
Historically ignorant terrorist supporting propaganda swallowing morons.
what Darleen said.
"We need to de-Nazify our educational system."
Crack: "If you can move 7 million Palestinians then you can move 7 million Zionists...."
And when did anyone move 7 million Palestinians? Or is there really no limit to the evil you conjure about the Jews? Your hatred is really twisting your mind, man. I know it's a buzz, but like your eponymous Crack, there's a price.
Long past time to declare the teacher unions and public education domestic terrorists.
Jake said...
"A majority of young Americans should be ignored."
-------------
You ignore them at your peril. They will be running things when your body is rotting in a grave six feet under.
Question for 'Readering'; in what possible way is this Jared Kushner's fault? Convince me that you are not just a hopeless never-trumper (as opposed to roacean, who is just a lying palestinian sympathiser.
What kills me is that neither young nor old Americans have any idea of the intracacies of either a one state or two state solution. And I'm not saying I do either. As long as Iran with its present government exists neither is possible.
"Sometimes I think the Palestinians would be happier to live in squalor than to prosper if it meant acting like Israelis."
If acting like Israelis is anything like acting white, you're probably right.
In high school, I remember being completely ambivalent to the entire Middle-East turmoil.
I learned about the Middle East in third grade while sitting in gas lines.
Yeah, I was just talking to an ex-cop who found too many little boys with blood in their underpants.
Shall we have more of that, or choose the strictures of Christian Western Civilization?
There isn't a third choice. I'm ready to do what has to be done to widely and ethnically eliminate immigration.
are these 'yutes' able to action plan for their opinion implementation?
how should be follow up question in these surveys >> are israel lemming?
If my old grade school principal was in charge, neither the Palestinians nor the Jews would get the land.
Mr. Marberg would put Israel in the top drawer of his desk and they'd both go away with nothing.
If the Israelis cannot allow the Palestinians to live on their own land as equal citizens with the Israelis, then maybe it is time for Israel to end. One way or another the one state solution is the only possible solution.
"If you can move 7 million Palestinians then you can move 7 million Zionists...."
And when did anyone move 7 million Palestinians? Or is there really no limit to the evil you conjure about the Jews?
Presumably 2 of those 7 million are Israeli Arabian Druze, Bedouin, Christians, Circassians, Arab Muslims, Arameans, etc, etc., etc. that no Israeli government has ever proposed moving anywhere. Some of these groups serve as IDF conscripts and have since the founding of the state at the request of their communities’ leaders. More and more of them continue to enlist each year. None of them want anything to do with a Palestinian government or any other Arab nationalist government. Israeli “Palestinian” Christians attain some of the highest levels of professional achievement of any demographic in the state. An Israeli Arab jurist, George Karra, sentenced a former Israeli president to jail. Another one, Salim Joubran, upheld the conviction.
Butt-Crack will conjure any evil about the Jews (as long as they’re in a majority position in a country) because he’s about as unbiased as Kanye West.
The lament that “Zionists” occupy more land than they should and that Gaza is too small sound like the Nazi calls for lebensraum in the 1930s.
"Sometimes I think the Palestinians would be happier to live in squalor than to prosper if it meant acting like Israelis."
Sometimes? They've demonstrated it
Blogger lonejustice said..."You ignore them at your peril. They will be running things when your body is rotting in a grave six feet under.
Hey, rocket scientist! He'll be in no peril when he's dead.
Thank God Crack is here.
Said no-one, ever. You must be the only one here to take his outdated links to opinion pieces to be persuasive.
I don't the energy to fight back against the constant (and often deliberate) stupidity and dishonesty on the Israel-Palestine question.
No, you just either don’t believe in the facts you rely on to come to your flimsy conclusions or don’t care to find out what the relevant facts actually are.
Yeah, 15,000 Palestinans civilians killed, hospitals destroyed, water and food cut off, and a million driven from their homes.
And yet, still nowhere near as many or as bad as what happened to Germany in 1945. I guess the Allies who saved civilization just weren’t the wonderful humanitarian that you identify as when it comes to all things Palestine. If only they’d had your sage advice and counsel then maybe it all would have ended so much better!
But Israel is the REAL victim. Poor little genocidal country.
Unbelievable.
It really gets under your skin the way they refuse to endure a repeat of WWII or even what just happened to 100,000 Armenians at the hands of the Islamic Azerbaijanis. It’s hard to guilt-trip people into allowing for what Hamas just did, given what they know about the world from the last century and about 25 centuries before that one.
It's not based in reality. Israel is not going anywhere. As for Crack and "see how they like it"?. The Jews have been moved out of there, out of other places so many times you'd need a year just to study it all and understand the miracle that is Israel. We've always been there. Moved out, and yet some hung in there. Others- hundreds of thousands of other Jews forced to move from their homes in the rest of the Levant- from Morocco to Yemen to Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and on and on. We've been chased out of Russia, Ukraine, Germany, France, Belgium, Italy, and now US universities and New York restaurants.
Yet we are still here, producing, working hard, trying to assimilate in our various homes, while always knowing where our Home of Homes is. And that is Israel: Literally, Biblically, and in reality. It is the one place where we know we can still be- if all else fails. And so, what happens when that place, Israel, is the place we are told we must leave again? Sorry...but many of us just don't trust the rest of the world much. There's just too much history to remind us. I'm an American. I love this country fervently and I would fight to keep this country free. But...I know when the shit hits the fan- and it can happen here- I would have one place that would still make a spot for me.
It was always the land of the Jews. And it is still. The Jews have taken that small slice of desert and turned it into one of the most dynamic economies in the world, a tech giant, a patent producing machine, a Nobel Prize gathering apparatus, an agricultural marvel, and a country that has, in it's short life, already shared with the world a huge number of inventions, ideas, medical innovations and discoveries, and processes for improving lives.
The Palestinians were offered to share, to live in peace multiple times. Their goal is the elimination of Jews. As if that would change their lives. They produced nothing previously. There is no history of it. Their lone reason for being seems to be simply to hate Jews. That is their gift to the world. Not one of their Arab neighbors have invited them to live among them. One wonders why until you actually look their history. No one really wants someone so completely immersed in hate to be living among them. While the Israelis are teaching their kids how to write code, or how to farm in the desert using drip irrigation, the Palestinians are teaching their kids that Jews need to be murdered.
But, sure. Let the US kids protest and answer these polls. Our young people know nothing and most everyone above the age of 40 knows this. Their attention span is that of a gnat and their knowledge base is acquired via TikTok and Instagram. History and economy are not only not studied by this cohort, they are considered useless to them. Yet, here we have a pollster asking their opinion of an entire people, a culture that has brought so much to the world....And their answer is to...just end it.
I won't put much into the kids opinions. But I do wonder at the purpose of such a poll.
I guess I have to say the requisite- of course no one wants to see innocent Palestinians killed in these battles. Children, women, and men. No innocents should ever be targets. But...this is a war the Palestinians started and keep alive. Never have they looked toward peace. And never would they consider any compromise. So...what are Israelis to do with a people living next door who want to rape, murder, burn, behead them?
What would you do with these people who will not stop coming at you and your people looking to kill you all. After decades and decades of it...what would any of you do?
How is it helpful to call someone an antisemite or a racist? An argument is either valid or not valid. Saying that the argument is made by someone who is antisemitic doesn’t invalidate the argument. It just inflames the discussion. It also inhibits the conversation. There’s a whole bunch of conversations that don’t take place because people don’t want to be personally attacked for making an argument. And all of a sudden we’re surprised that there are so many pro Palestinian sympathizers. Maybe if we had free and open discussions all along, it wouldn’t be such a surprise.
Blogger lonejustice said...
Jake said...
"A majority of young Americans should be ignored."
-------------
You ignore them at your peril. They will be running things when your body is rotting in a grave six feet under.
------------------------
At which point for me it'll no longer matter - but for them, it'll be a magnificent lesson in 'Bright Ideas Don't Make For Good Results', and 'Much As You May Deny It, The US Doesn't Control Everything. Other Countries Have Autonomy, too."
Those 18 to 24-year-old darlings are economic geniuses. The Economist ranked Israel as the 4th most successful economy among developed countries for 2022. Six years ago, the World Bank found that 45% of people in Gaza were suffering from multidimensional poverty – low incomes and a lack of access to education and basic infrastructure – but the numbers had increased as a result of the war.
Hey Yinzer: Jared opened his mouth and inserted his foot.
Jared Kushner takes credit for bringing Arab-Israeli conflict to its "last vestiges' in op-ed.
Mar 15, 2021
Jared Kushner took a victory lap in a Wall Street Journal op-ed published Monday.
Kushner claimed his work on several Israeli agreements would lead to peace across the region.
"We are witnessing the last vestiges of what has been known as the Arab-Israeli conflict," he wrote.
"Most of them love to bomb and kill brown people..."
Boomer here. I was in the AF, and I can assure you that when it came to bombing, black, white or brown, yellow, really, any color at all would have been acceptable.
"Israel should be ended". Isn't that a weird way to pose the question? What does it mean for "Israel" to be "ended"? What happens to the 9 million Israelis after Israel is "ended"? Where do they go? For the non-Jews (mostly Muslims) are left, who provides fire protection and trash removal and medical services?
It's a very strange way to phrase a question. It's like a wish instead of a realistic assessment of anything.
The way you "end" a country is by invading it and killing a lot of people. A war is how countries cease to exist. Israel has an army. There have been plenty of attempts to "end" Israel and they have all failed miserably.
Hamas rapes and murders innocent Israelis, knowing full well this will bring a war and all the horrors of war to the innocents living in Gaza and elsewhere. That's their strategy. They can't fight a war. All they can do is propaganda. Gullible children believe the propaganda.
Our media routinely reports fantasies, wishes and myths as if they are real. War is real. You invade a country and rape a lot of innocent people and murder a lot of innocent people and war is what happens. That's what always happens. If you don't like war, don't start one.
18 to 24 year olds who want to "end" Israel can sign up for Hamas and fight the fight. These are not true believers. These are children who play video games and have a noxious idea about Israel that was spoon-fed to them when they were children and it will take a while for their brains to clear.
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/12/17/dont-put-too-much-stock-in-survey-finding-that-67-of-18-24-year-olds-say-jews-are-oppressors/ Good advice
Israel should be ended certainly sounds like a resolution of the problem, perhaps a final solution? Asking for a couple of friends who happen populate this board with multiple posts.
And for those of us who think that Israel should be a more "cosmopolitan" nation I wish to thank Effinayright for this:
"SNORT
and @ Robert Cook. Israel is home to about 2 million Arabs and 500,000 Christians, all of whom have equal rights as citizens. So no bullshit, please, about Israel *becoming* a cosmopolitan nation of Jews and non-Jews. It already is."
And oh yeah, identity politics is doing so much to create harmony etc. And if multi-ethnic diversity is such a good idea, while didn't the Austro Hungarian empire bestride the earth like a colossus instead of indulging in perpetual squabbling before, during and after its existence.
The value of "diversity" is something the value of which is much like that of cold fusion's future, it's always just around the corner. I expect it to arrive at about the same time that "climate change" kills us all.
Almost wish it were possible to give Israel to Hamas. It *might* be instructive for the young idiots how quickly it becomes an absolute shithole.
"Dude, a 'culture' who just used the most barbaric of rape, torture, murder and mutilation against civilians is not the equal of any Judeo-Christian based culture. Period."
You mean like the (presumably Judeo-Christian) Europeans who streamed to this continent and waged near-genocidal wars against the indigenous peoples already living here (reducing their total population over time from millions to merely hundreds of thousands)?
Robert Cook said...
Well, that's just stupid, and reveals the ignorance of many young people of how the world really works. The only solution is either a true two-state solution, or the erasure of the notion of Israel as being a "Jewish state" and it becoming simply a cosmopolitan nation with a population of Jews and non-Jews, all with equal legal standing and equal rights, none with any special claim on the state or the law, all with equal rights to travel and live anywhere they wish. You know, like other modern nations with populations composed of people from many ancestries, national origins, ethnicities and religious creeds.
Why don't we start with the Arab countries that expelled all of their Jews in 1948. As far as "cospmopolitan" is concerned, what's happening in Europe is not a great exemplar for Mr. Cook's perscription. BtW, a multinational state was advocated by Jews in the early 20th century, but had no real takers amomng the Arab population
The Jews have been moved out of there, out of other places so many times you'd need a year just to study it all and understand the miracle that is Israel.
And always a minority. Easy to single out, concentrate, round up, throw out, forcibly convert, or kill.
We've always been there. Moved out, and yet some hung in there. Others- hundreds of thousands of other Jews forced to move from their homes in the rest of the Levant- from Morocco to Yemen to Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and on and on. We've been chased out of Russia, Ukraine, Germany, France, Belgium, Italy, and now US universities and New York restaurants.
Because - again - the lack of a place of safety made it easy.
Yet we are still here, producing, working hard, trying to assimilate in our various homes, while always knowing where our Home of Homes is. And that is Israel: Literally, Biblically, and in reality. It is the one place where we know we can still be- if all else fails.
As it has, again and again, for millennia. Even when Jews were in the majority in the area now known as Israel, they were still the targets of massacres and forced diaspora.
And so, what happens when that place, Israel, is the place we are told we must leave again? Sorry...but many of us just don't trust the rest of the world much. There's just too much history to remind us. I'm an American. I love this country fervently and I would fight to keep this country free. But...I know when the shit hits the fan- and it can happen here- I would have one place that would still make a spot for me.
The counterargument with regard to the "Palestinians" is that they're now the New Jews, the new people without a homeland. But it's not true. They're the same people as the ones who surround Israel - they've just been trafficking on their invented status as a fake unique ethnic entity since 1948.
One place, one tiny place, where this real unique ethnic minority can live as a majority, hoping that fact will allow it to defend itself against the depredations visited on it everywhere else. And what has been happening to it ever since the UN helpfully decreed its existence? The same thing that has happened to Jewish minorities everywhere else: demands for separatism, concentration in a small-nation-sized ghetto - these two things exemplified by the lack of Jewish presence in any Muslim-majority nation, vilification as less than human and even as monsters, blood libels...
Israel is a traditional ghetto, a majority-Jewish enclave surrounded by people who hate (or at least espouse policies that discriminate against) Jews. It just happens to be a really prosperous one, with weaponry. And it's chosen to constitute itself as a modern free nation and to honor the civil rights of all its citizens, not just the Jewish ones, and to honor that commitment in reality and not just in the breach. Is there another country in the region that comes close to this?
Not all cultures are equal. Not by a long-shot. The corollary is that not all lives are equally valuable. Hard truth. If the Palestinians must be killed to preserve Israeli lives, then that is not a difficult choice. Sometimes you must pick a side. I have.
"Israel is home to about 2 million Arabs and 500,000 Christians, all of whom have equal rights as citizens. So no bullshit, please, about Israel *becoming* a cosmopolitan nation of Jews and non-Jews. It already is."
It doesn't appear Israel is really very willing to welcome or share their land equally with non-Jewish cosmopolitans who might have reason to join their cosmopolitan nation as citizens.
Israel appears about as eager to assimilate with the Palestinians as were the Europeans who streamed to the American continent a few hundred years ago and reduced the indigenous populations here from approximately 10 million to a mere few hundred thousand today.
The basic and insurmountable problem is the establishment of a state for a specific people, whether based on cultural, racial, religious, or other criteria, especially if the establishment of such a state requires the displacement of a substantial population of people already living where the new state is to be established. (We see this in our own history with the aforementioned Europeans who displaced the indigenous peoples living on the American continent at the time of the Europeans' arrival, killing them off and pushing them onto what were essentially open-air prison camps, which is what Gaza is today).
Bumblebee, thanks for the link to Theodore Dalrymple. I always enjoy his writing.
Only 4% of over 65 poll respondents went with end Israel, give it to Hamas. I'm over 65. My formative years included 67 war, 73 war, 78 Camp David. Outside East Jerusalem the settler movement was in its infancy. For 18-24 their formative years have been Netanyahu and the steady settler expansion to the point where 2 state solution was largely written off even before October 7. Certainly by Netanyahu, whose 2020 peace plan was its own version of from the River to the Sea, Israeli style (check the map). Obama resisted that for the first 8 years of Netanyahu's premiership. Trump/Kushner embraced it, substituting a plan to link with Arab Sunni Gulf states that shared hatred) of non-Arab Shia Iran and a desire to make money, plus a couple of other Muslim states the US could bribe (Morocco, Sudan).
Half of Greater Israel/Palestine is gentile. As AA's morning post on the New Yorker demonstrates, there is a well developed academic basis for young people to embrace the oppressor-oppressed explanation for the Jewish-Palestinian relationship. What's the counter? The Old Testament?
"Not all cultures are equal. Not by a long-shot. The corollary is that not all lives are equally valuable. Hard truth. If the Palestinians must be killed to preserve Israeli lives, then that is not a difficult choice. Sometimes you must pick a side. I have."
"Hard truth?" "...not a difficult choice" to kill (an unequal culture) the Palestinians? Abominable viewpoints, I say. If there were a term comparable to antisemitic to apply to you for your sentiments expressed toward Palestinians*, that term would be applicable to your expressed "choice," (in addition to "abominable").
*(Actually, there is: antisemitic, as the Palestinians are also a semitic people.)
"What about Oct 7?"
by Israel should be ended > could mean US support should be ended?
I am all for that since the problem has festered precisely due to that "US support" !
Israel just needs to make a national self-interest decision on how to act and live with that choice without US or UN interference
Alastair Cooke: Hamas intended to govern until 2006, "but the was really overturned by Condaleezza Rice and Blair."
antisemitic, as the Palestinians are also a semitic people
Oh dear lord. Again with the hoary old Jewhater dodge of pretending not to know the etymology behind the word "antisemitism".
Again, Arab "Palestinians" are Arabs. Their ostensible "unique culture" is an invention of criminal Yassar Arafat in the 1960s. There was never an Arab nation called "Palestine", no history, no kings or emperors, no ancient coins. Arabs are the occupiers/colonizers starting with pedo Mohammad who decided to slaughter Jews for their insult of not converting to his religion.
The Arab-Pals have been the canon fodder for toxic Islamists of the region ... and they have become so rabid that Arab nations want nothing to do with them. Notice that Egypt refused to open its border to Gazan "refugees"?
Gazan men women and even children as young as 11-13 followed Hamas into southern Israel to participate in the carnage of the LIBERAL kibbutzes.
There is no moral equivalency here. Never again is now.
You mean like the (presumably Judeo-Christian) Europeans who streamed to this continent and waged near-genocidal wars against the indigenous peoples already living here (reducing their total population over time from millions to merely hundreds of thousands)?
Oh, sorry Dude. Who do you think you're fooling with the risible claim? The Noble Savages of North America living in peace, harmony, caretakers of the environment, noshing on rainbow fish who willingly jump into native nets -- a perfect utopia until WhiteManBad showed up is so much equine excrement.
Next you'll be trotting out the "We waz Kings" supremacist mythology that is trying to make the European Middles Ages as "racially diverse" and Cleopatra and Hannibal as sub-Saharan Africans.
It doesn't appear Israel is really very willing to welcome or share their land equally with non-Jewish cosmopolitans who might have reason to join their cosmopolitan nation as citizens.
Really? You mean they actually exercise control over their border and immigration policy and aren’t seeking to decimate their state’s Jewish character and ability to remain the only state that exists as a refuge for those historically persecuted people? What a horror.
I just saw Konstantin Kissin reminding Bill Maher that other states aren’t preaching hatred for their own people: Not China, not Russia, not any of our competitors. And certainly not the Arab or Muslim countries that readily could and occasionally do serve asylum purposes for Muslims or Arabs quite well - if they wanted to. But instead you assume Israel should serve this purpose for hundreds of millions of Arabs and over a billion Muslims. Wow. Or at least for enough Palestinians to finish the job because Arab/Muslim pride would be served in so doing. What a noble cause.
Only in the West is national self-hatred seen as virtuous. Europe is waking up to the stupidity in that and Israel has long understood the futility in it. But you’re saying Israel should reverse course because I guess the Palestinians who hate and want to eliminate them seem to have failed to achieve a progressive “cosmopolitan” society for themselves. Well, isn’t that a shame. Letting them take over Israel won’t achieve that any more than letting them mass-migrate to Europe has done there. Instead it’s made the continent more regressive. When you import populations who believe in radically regressive things like jihad, dhimmi status, death for apostates and honor killings, it doesn’t make your country more liberal and tolerant. BTW, over 60% of Palestinians living in Denmark have criminal records. But maybe that’s Denmark’s fault, in your world.
Every time you post on this you convince me that the left is either completely finished, or the left will continue working to completely finish the West. The same civilization that you seem to prefer living within. The civilization that you haven’t left for a supposedly superior one in any of the Orient or the “Global South,” as America’s regressive BRICS countries and their satellites like to fashion themselves.
It doesn't appear Israel is really very willing to welcome or share their land equally with non-Jewish cosmopolitans who might have reason to join their cosmopolitan nation as citizens.
Really? You mean they actually exercise control over their border and immigration policy and aren’t seeking to decimate their state’s Jewish character and ability to remain the only state that exists as a refuge for those historically persecuted people? What a horror.
I just saw Konstantin Kissin reminding Bill Maher that other states aren’t preaching hatred for their own people: Not China, not Russia, not any of our competitors. And certainly not the Arab or Muslim countries that readily could and occasionally do serve asylum purposes for Muslims or Arabs quite well - if they wanted to. But instead you assume Israel should serve this purpose for hundreds of millions of Arabs and over a billion Muslims. Wow. Or at least for enough Palestinians to finish the job because Arab/Muslim pride would be served in so doing. What a noble cause.
Only in the West is national self-hatred seen as virtuous. Europe is waking up to the stupidity in that and Israel has long understood the futility in it. But you’re saying Israel should reverse course because I guess the Palestinians who hate and want to eliminate them seem to have failed to achieve a progressive “cosmopolitan” society for themselves. Well, isn’t that a shame. Letting them take over Israel won’t achieve that any more than letting them mass-migrate to Europe has done there. Instead it’s made the continent more regressive. When you import populations who believe in radically regressive things like jihad, dhimmi status, death for apostates and honor killings, it doesn’t make your country more liberal and tolerant. BTW, over 60% of Palestinians living in Denmark have criminal records. But maybe that’s Denmark’s fault, in your world.
Every time you post on this you convince me that the left is either completely finished, or the left will continue working to completely finish the West. The same civilization that you seem to prefer living within. The civilization that you haven’t left for a supposedly superior one in any of the Orient or the “Global South,” as America’s regressive BRICS countries and their satellites like to fashion themselves.
“You mean like the (presumably Judeo-Christian) Europeans who streamed to this continent and waged near-genocidal wars against the indigenous peoples already living here (reducing their total population over time from millions to merely hundreds of thousands)?”
Of course most of that resulted from diseases they lacked immunity to, and that weren’t even known prior to discovering germ theory. Pity that the natives hadn’t advanced their own agricultural capacity yet to the point where evolution of and exposure/immunity to those diseases would have caught up to Old World standards. But they did appear to get us back with syphilis. So there’s that.
“You mean like the (presumably Judeo-Christian) Europeans who streamed to this continent and waged near-genocidal wars against the indigenous peoples already living here (reducing their total population over time from millions to merely hundreds of thousands)?”
Of course most of that resulted from diseases they lacked immunity to, and that weren’t even known prior to discovering germ theory. Pity that the natives hadn’t advanced their own agricultural capacity yet to the point where evolution of and exposure/immunity to those diseases would have caught up to Old World standards. But they did appear to get us back with syphilis. So there’s that.
"Oh, sorry Dude. Who do you think you're fooling with the risible claim? The Noble Savages of North America living in peace, harmony, caretakers of the environment, noshing on rainbow fish who willingly jump into native nets -- a perfect utopia until WhiteManBad showed up is so much equine excrement."
Not in the least. Don't be juvenile. I'm saying all societies are brutal and violent in the eternal competition over desired land and resources. What is happening in Israel is not about blameless Jews protecting themselves against the aggressive depredations of anti-semitic "villains." What is happening between Israel and the Palestinians is a contemporary example of the same conflicts that have always existed when one group of people claims for themselves an area of land where others already live: violent displacement of as many of the earlier inhabitants as possible, and prolonged (and sporadically violent) oppression of those earlier inhabitants who remain. Our own history is the same old story.
I only just saw this commentary by Chris Hedges in the past 15 minutes, but it echoes here and there a bit of what I expressed earlier above. I cannot say if Hedges' predictions of the outcome for Israel, based on his citation of historical and current events, will prove accurate, but his predictions certainly seem feasible if events continue as they have. Hubris paired with untempered self-interest can be fatal perils to persons and nations who fall prey to them, (including us).
" What is happening between Israel and the Palestinians is a contemporary example of the same conflicts that have always existed when one group of people claims for themselves an area of land where others already live: violent displacement of as many of the earlier inhabitants as possible, and prolonged (and sporadically violent) oppression of those earlier inhabitants who remain."
Where your assertion breaks down is that in 2005 Gaza was given over to the Palestinians in it's entirety. The Jews even disinnterred their dead and took them with them. The Jews had no more interest in Gaza. The Jews still have no more interest in the land that is Gaza. What they want is for the Palestinians to quit killing them. Leave the Jews alone and the Palestinians will have peace.
What did you do with the real puddin'?
Would someone explain to me what is the wonderful thing that would happen if the Israelis vanished from Israel? Would true Islamic rule cause human flourishing among Gazans? What actual examples illustrate the wonderful outcome that we can anticipate?
"Would someone explain to me what is the wonderful thing that would happen if the Israelis vanished from Israel?"
Who is saying the Israelis should vanish from Israel?
"Where your assertion breaks down is that in 2005 Gaza was given over to the Palestinians in it's entirety. The Jews even disinnterred their dead and took them with them. The Jews had no more interest in Gaza. The Jews still have no more interest in the land that is Gaza. What they want is for the Palestinians to quit killing them. Leave the Jews alone and the Palestinians will have peace."
Sez who?
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