November 12, 2023
"In August, Francis criticized the 'strong reactionary attitude' among some American Catholics over his leadership of the church."
"He described them with an apparently self-created word — 'indietristi,' or backward-looking people — and argued that they don’t understand how faith and morals can evolve. 'Those American groups you talk about, so closed, are isolating themselves,' the pope said.... 'Instead of living by doctrine, by the true doctrine that always develops and bears fruit, they live by ideologies.'..."
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66 comments:
Pope is a divider, not a uniter.
Catholic news has been and continues to be all over this story. Why, though, is mainstream news concerned about a bishop? What's in it for them?
A new level of cancellation by the Left.
Terrible Pope.
"He described them with an apparently self-created word"
"Trans people make-up words to win arguments."
This pope is a dope.
Not the church that Confirmed me!
Francis : Working night and day to keep the Flock together.
Note: I am Catholic and I know Bishop Strickland.
First one must realize all priest take a vow of obedience...
If they have any issues with doctrine they are supposed to 'go through channels'.
To openly opposed Pope Francis' reforms and accused the pope of "undermining the deposit of faith" IN THE PRESS is not wise.
To talk openly about.. diluting the church's core teachings around social and theological issues, including communion, divorce, abortion and same-sex marriage is again not wise.
Yes our Pope is liberal... and socialist and MANY of the things Bishop Strickland talked about I do believe are true.. BUT...
In reality it is the Cardinals that hold the power. They can actually kick a Pope out of office (has been done before!) Read up on it!!!
Yes Bishop Strickland overstepped his authority. He should have spent more time talking to other Bishops and Cardinals to change their views... Yes it make take DECADES... but that is the way it is done... no need for a Martin Luther 95 thesis nailed to the door.
And it is kind of hard for the Church to ignore his outspokenness cause if they do.. others will start doing the same (Loose talk and all that) and that is how a Church splits, called a schism, and THAT has happened before to!
Oddly enough in saying that he undermines the very argument for his role and the expressed primacy of the RC church.
If the pope is Peter’s rightful and authorized successor as leader of Christ’s one true church (the acceptance of which is what it means to be Catholic) then God sets the doctrine through the Pope and no one else has standing to say otherwise.
If that line of succession and authorization was broken back at the end of the first century, or since then, then we look elsewhere for the authority to articulate God’s true doctrine. It might be tempting to look at the Bible as the source, but throughout the history of God dealing with mankind, the scripture always came from the church. The church never came from the scripture.
What we’re looking for is someone who can stand in the street and authoritatively declare ”Thus sayeth the Lord.” The fact that we apparently have stopped looking for such a person is the real problem - the real sign of loss of faith. You may wonder how one can know if a person has authority - the authority - to stand declare ”thus sayeth the lord.” I would assert the answer is found in the story in the New Testament on the road to Emmaus. “Did not our hearts within us burn?”
Yes, America has long been a hotbed of heresy.
Americanism was, in the years around 1900, a political and religious outlook attributed to some American Catholics and denounced as heresy by the Holy See.
In the 1890s, European "continental conservative" clerics detected signs of modernism or classical liberalism, which Pope Pius IX had condemned in the Syllabus of Errors in 1864, among the beliefs and teachings of many members of the American Catholic hierarchy, who denied the charges.[1]
Satan’s tools are always among us, and we must be ever vigilant. Indeed, I fear that the rot has now gone too far to be cured by mere encyclicals, and sterner measures are needed. Bring back the Inquisition!
The Church has had bad Popes before, it will take a long time to repair the damage this one has done. Francis despises Bishops who stand for eternal Catholic teachings, and tolerates those who favor heresy.
I was hoping the Pope would strongly condemn the killing of thousands of Civilians in Gaza, but all we got was weak, vague words. Maybe the Pope doesn't want to anger the Israelis.
“Yes it make take DECADES... but that is the way it is done... no need for a Martin Luther 95 thesis nailed to the door.”
What utter BULLSHIT. The very same thing could be said about…Martin Luther and the actual 95 Theses.
"... they don’t understand how faith and morals can evolve."
Sure they do. It's about the clergy, including this Pope, elevating themselves above the word of God.
It's kind of like Truman firing MacArthur.
It doesn't mean MacArthur was a bad general. But MacArthur forgot who he worked for, and had to go.
That sticks in my craw is that Strickland got sacked but not Fr. Martin, who's doing far more damage.
Isn't that a papal gaffe?
Isn't the Church supposed to "look backward," like, to scripture and tradition and the authority of the institution?
Hey, pope, you have one job. But of course, as a prog, he aims to destroy. Good luck, Catholics.
"... argued that they don’t understand how faith and morals can evolve."
Sounds rather antithetical to discussions I have with religious people.
First off, faith in what? The teachings of said faith or the words of some new guy?
I inherently don't trust anyone who says "I'm the last word, given this position by God/Allah, so you can't contradict or even speak your thoughts aloud in public."
Only those unsure of their beliefs fear criticism.
@Paul:
So, a new Pope can decide to fall in with a new political movement that is only a decade or so old and the church members are supposed to wait for longer than those new movements themselves change and be happy? Small wonder they're loosing members.
DO YOU WANT SEDEVACANTISTS? BECAUSE THIS IS HOW YOU GET SEDEVACANTISTS
"...throughout the history of God dealing with mankind, the scripture always came from the church. The church never came from the scripture."
From a Protestant point of view this is biblically, historically and theologically incorrect.
As one who grew up with parents who never embraced Vatican Ii, Francis has opened the Church to be led by those who will fail to keep the pews filled. But they will espouse the most popular, momentary fads in public opinion. And feel sooo good about themselves doing so.
The Church can deal with heresy. It may be unable to deal with change, once again.
It has not gone well for churches that have stopped looking in the past, and instead adjusted to accommodate changing morals.
It is Catholic to embrace the sinner. It is heresy to embrace the sin.
Is the pope Catholic or Pro-Choice?
Does social progress celebrate polygamy, incest, and other marriages? Civil unions for all or all consenting adults? #NoJudgment #NoLabels
With the ethical sacrament of the wicked solution in liberal churches, binary bigotry is a forward-looking progression of the moderate state of mind.
Six weeks for medical abortion? #NoJudgment #NoLabels, right?
Hate in Spring.
When you're in a hierarchy, you do not do things to piss off those people above you in the hierarchy.
I was hoping the Pope would strongly condemn the killing of thousands of Civilians in Gaza
And Ukraine, and Yemen, and Libya, and South Africa, and China, and Serbia, and Israel, and in clinics, and...
Apparently these days you can be more catholic than the pope.
Popes are always right, including when they disagree with a predecessor. Because "faith and morals can evolve".
"...throughout the history of God dealing with mankind, the scripture always came from the church. The church never came from the scripture."
I must have missed "the church" in the Old Testament.
Cue the "is the Pope Catholic?" bits.
"I was hoping the Pope would strongly condemn the killing of thousands of Civilians in Gaza
And Ukraine, and Yemen, and Libya, and South Africa, and China, and Serbia, and Israel, and in clinics, and..."
You left out eastern Congo and the Sahel.
"...it will take a long time to repair the damage this one has done."
Obama is pope?
My beef with the RCC is that they are veering more and more into political lanes.
They have no issue whatsoever with an open border, for instance.
The Church does a tremendous amount of work feeding/clothing/housing/healing anyone who needs it.
But when you've got an open border, that turns into enablement.
I have many friends who are priests, and over the years I have never met one who I would consider conservative politically.
Everyone is very much far left on every issue save abortion.
Cradle Catholic here. Nowadays CINO*. They, i.e., this pope, lost me a few years ago. I'd been trending for years to severely distrust all human institutions. Then came another Catholic church sex scandal**, this one from Pittsburgh I believe. The Babylon Bee made a satirical statement from "the Vatican" about how it was a bad thing, yes, but they were concentrating on more important things, like climate change and social justice. Ha ha.
And then the Vatican released a nearly identical statement.
* Catholic In Name Only.
** Side note: I do feel that the Catholic church is unfairly ripped for this sort of thing, in the sense that other institutions (e.g., the UN, public education) are no doubt far worse and get a complete pass.
“And it is kind of hard for the Church to ignore his outspokenness cause if they do.. others will start doing the same (Loose talk and all that) and that is how a Church splits, called a schism, and THAT has happened before to!”
Schisms dilute power but promote new growth. The RCCe is long overdue for a splintering. And, unlike the last time around, no one outside the power structure gives a shit if there’s an extra pope hanging out in Avignon. Or anywhere else, for that matter. Most disillusioned Catholics would welcome the comedy.
You left out eastern Congo and the Sahel
Pre- and post-colonial Africa were and are an anthropogenic catastrophe. Some of the most fertile land on Earth and people are starving. That and the widespread diversity (e.g. racism and other class bigotry) that persists as a progressive condition. That said, I let the ellipsis do the heavy work.
Now that the pope is not Catholic, do bears not sh*t in the woods?
If Satan had been empowered to choose the pope, would he have chosen someone else? Unlikely that the Catholic Church survives the damage.
“Those American groups you talk about, so closed, are isolating themselves,' the pope said....”
Now do African Catholics. Frank fears this stuff because, push comes to shove, he knows which way most observant Catholics are going to jump.
Ah, Pope Francis. Official motto: “Make A Mess!” Mission accomplished!
The day Francis dies the Vatican will be filled with the smell of brimstone.
(Reposted to fix a typo. This guy has to be the worst Pope since Alexander VI — aka Rodrigo Borgia.)
Popes are not above severe criticism. See St Catherine of Siena, canonized for doing just that.
Hmmm....the religious franchise continues to lose and lose converts. This seems to be typical of an organization that no longer believes in itself or it's basic tenets. Especially with respect to religion. Relaxing standards to move with the times.
You do not see the same with Muslim, Jehovah's Witnesses for example. I am not sure but I believe there is an strict orthodox(?) religion that is also picking up membership.
Texas Bishop learns you can't criticize the big dog in Rome.
New York City Mayor learns you can't criticize the big dog in the White House. Mayor Adams challenged Biden's feckless actions towards the border. All those "immigrants" overwhelmed the New York Sanctuary City idea. And when Adams criticized Biden's policies, the FBI showed up to raid Adams and seize his cellphones.
Same old same old. Don't yap at the big dog. He'll stomp you and the caravan will still move on.
I guess that when you're infallible, you don't take criticism very well.
It's not an institution that is capable of sufficient reform to keep the liberal wing attached. The cultural capital that theocracies hold cannot offset the fanaticism of rigid interpretation of their laws as this is where their power lies. What is wrong with the Catholic Church cannot be saved by what is right with it.
Maybe because the Pope is a communist ? Could that be it ?
What happens when you substitute Woke for Enlightened.
@ Michael K: It does seem that the dyed-in-the-wool conservatives, encouraged by the revanchist Benedict, are now isolated and in the open. They seem to reject the direction of travel of the Second Vatican Council, but prefer to retreat to the security of lace and rigidities. Sadly that runs in the opposite direction to the spirit of Jesus's teachings in the Gospels, and I suspect the great majority of responses of the consultation process will make that clear.
Kate, that is also my question. Why does the secular media care?
Bergoglio is not Pope, he's an anti Pope. Benedict's resignation was not valid, it was spelled out and canon law what he had to do and he didn't do it, that's why he never left the Vatican, he never quit wearing white, he never quit giving his apostolic blessing. So even if Bergoglio were a Good, Holy and Catholic man, he would still not be Pope, but God in his Mercy has made it obvious that he's not because as a non-catholic he can't be Pope.
The church does emphasize obedience to superiors but in the hierarchy of the church the top of the church is Christ and if your superiors are going against Christ it is your duty to disobey them
It’s been shocking to watch Americans of faith — first the left, then right — make politics their new religion.
Jesus said: "18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll." Revelation 22:18-19
Revelation is all-encompassing regarding what Jesus expects from his church. Adding and taking away is what Francis's papacy is about.
Francis is a communist. Christian doctrine doesn’t “evolve”. Francis is satan’s pope. The anti pope.
6 weeks. #NoJudgment #NoLabels
Civil unions. #NoJudgment #NoLabels
Emigration reform. #NoJudgment #NoLabels
No labor or environmental arbitrage, no shared responsibility through progressive prices.
Go green, not Green.
Science practiced within a limited frame of reference. Objective. Rational. No faith required.
Spring, what is it good for? Absolutely nothing.
Commie.
True religion is always led by authorized prophets. The trap is and always has been in claiming that the new prophet that God sent isn’t Gods authorized servant, because the old prophets are the truth. And that pattern has been repeated over and over and over again in history, and was even applied against no less than the very son of God when he appeared.
The new profits get killed, and the old profits get venerated. That was the very thing that Christ accused his detractors of.
Which begs the question are there any people that arose in America and said they were authorized to speak for God, put forward written pages that they claim were revelations and scripture, that got opposed on the grounds that the old dead prophets are the only thing we should believe? And that in fact did get killed?
True religion is always led by authorized prophets. The trap is and always has been in claiming that the new prophet that God sent isn’t Gods authorized servant, because the old prophets are the truth. And that pattern has been repeated over and over and over again in history, and was even applied against no less than the very son of God when he appeared.
The new prophets get killed, and the old prophets get venerated. That was the very thing that Christ accused his detractors of.
Which begs the question are there any that have stood forward (e.g. in America under a divinely inspired constitution with full protections for religion) and said they were authorized to speak for God, that put forward written pages that they claim were revelations and scripture, and that got opposed on the grounds that the old dead prophets are the only thing we should believe? And that in fact did get killed?
Or are we still going to venerate old prophets and ignore God moving was called an authorized human servants, as in olden times, to lead his people through the last days?
The way I look at it Pope Francis evolved his ideas on the institutional history of the Church based on the Church in South America. There the colonists used the existing tribal villagers to continue farming the land taking a large portion of others work as their own. The Catholic Church was the established church there and many bishops/priests colluded with and defended the inequities of this system. In North America the farming system consisted of people doing their own work, not using tribal people as slaves. And, far from being the established church, the Catholic Church was hated and detested by mainline protestants even as late as 1960. But this Pope hasn't bothered to note the differences between what he experienced in Buenos Aires and what has/is happening in the USA. Without saying the institutional aspect of the American Catholic church is perfect I can say it won't be reformed by assuming it has the same institutional flaws as the South American churches. Nor is the current Vatican bureaucracy very credible as an agent of institutional reform. The first Francis was a saint who was voted out of the Franciscans which he had founded because he criticized the way his inspiration was being institutionalized; this Francis would probably have gone along with that vote: "Francis is just so rigid. We have to move with the times and be guided by what others say."
the revanchist Benedict,
"Rich" I don't see why Benedict was "revanchist." He was a Pope in line with John Paul II who had a hand in winning the Cold War. Maybe that's your objection.
Here in the Philippines, baclas and tomboys and trans are seen as part of the extended family, but there is a difference between accepting them and pushing policies that undermine the family. So Vice Ganda, whose movies are family friendly, is still popular but a recent drag queen who ridiculed Catholics got into trouble.
Francis is loved here for his love of the poor, but alas he is pushing the ideas of a post Christian Germany in a way that in reality undermines the family: at a time when globalization, unemployment, urbanization etc. are already endangering the family that helps poor families survive.
the result will be similar to places where the Jesuits pushed liberation theology: A huge increase in Protestant converts.
Can a Protestant be a sedevacantist? Because I certainly am.
Mainline Protestent went woke and have gone broke. They're dead churches. Catholic Church will go the same way, in Europe and the America's if it follows that path.
People don't want a Church that "goes with the flow" and "Keeps up with the current fashions". Why are the fashions changing? Its because a secular society hates Christ. And banging on about antisemitism and we need to be friends with the Muslims doesn't help either. It both those religions are valid and one gets into Heaven no matter what, why believe in Christianity or Care what the Pope says?
"It’s been shocking to watch Americans of faith — first the left, then right — make politics their new religion."
It really is. And sad. Because politics doesn't do the transcendent very well and so it becomes a religion of personality and power
"...throughout the history of God dealing with mankind, the scripture always came from the church. The church never came from the scripture."
"From a Protestant point of view this is biblically, historically and theologically incorrect."
Yes, but this Protestant point of view is Bibically, historically, and theologically incorrect, so that works out.
Religion is a philosophy of behavior: morality, ethics, law, etc, dictated by God, gods, mortal gods, experts, etc. Faith is a logical domain of trust. Faith and religion are integral to human existence.
Jason said: "Yes, but this Protestant point of view is Bibically (sic.), historically, and theologically incorrect, so that works out."
So says the preeminent biblical scholar and man of God. LOL!
Jason:
"From a Protestant point of view this is biblically, historically and theologically incorrect."
Yes, but this Protestant point of view is Bibically, historically, and theologically incorrect, so that works out.
Which church did Adam and Eve attend?
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