Writes Tom Beckett, "a retired lieutenant general of the British Army and executive director of the Middle East for the International Institute for Strategic Studies," quoted in "Israel Says It Will Destroy Hamas. But Who Will Govern Gaza? Israel has set itself a stiff challenge in aiming to vanquish Hamas. But an even bigger question looms: Once in Gaza, how and when does Israel get out?" (NYT).
October 24, 2023
"In truth, there are no good options for an Israeli ground offensive in Gaza. No matter how successful the operation proves..."
"... in defeating Hamas as a military organization, Hamas’s political imperative and the population’s support for the resistance will continue. Israel either reoccupies Gaza to control it or, by withdrawing after an offensive, cedes ground to people for whom the resistance is existence."
Writes Tom Beckett, "a retired lieutenant general of the British Army and executive director of the Middle East for the International Institute for Strategic Studies," quoted in "Israel Says It Will Destroy Hamas. But Who Will Govern Gaza? Israel has set itself a stiff challenge in aiming to vanquish Hamas. But an even bigger question looms: Once in Gaza, how and when does Israel get out?" (NYT).
Writes Tom Beckett, "a retired lieutenant general of the British Army and executive director of the Middle East for the International Institute for Strategic Studies," quoted in "Israel Says It Will Destroy Hamas. But Who Will Govern Gaza? Israel has set itself a stiff challenge in aiming to vanquish Hamas. But an even bigger question looms: Once in Gaza, how and when does Israel get out?" (NYT).
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Military Operation in Urban Terrain (MOUT).
Gaza is urban doom loop chaos that cannot be paralleled, except maybe by Kowloon Walled City when it was still around. You're talking about shanties on top of shanties, with addendums, linked together by an estimated 500km of underground tunnels that lead everywhere. Gaza gives Rio De Janeiro's Favelas a run for their money, and Rio doesn't have the tunnels (at least not to the extent Gaza does).
It will be slow. Very slow, to limit casualties. It will also involve lots of probes-in-depth, to free hostages, gain intelligence, or capture high-value targets. Urban operations don't involve phase lines...usually.
MOUT operations are casualty and resource intesive. At least Israel has the resources...
Why get out? Annex Gaza and enforce law and order. Civilized Muslims (assuming that’s not an oxymoron) will comply and proper. The barbarians will either suffer or emigrate to a suitably barbarous wasteland.
"In truth, there are no good options" but don't let a little thing like that stop you.
Israel should be made whole.
who wants the Palestinians/Hamas? Anyone?
It was a colossal error that Sharon made in 2005 to extirpate Jews in Gaza. Hamas had long before written in its charter that its goal was not a state but a Jew-free Holy Land, and it was known that Hamas would almost certainly soon become the ruler of Gaza because it was even more brutal than Arafat's guys.
Sharon assumed that having an enemy state on its border would show the world that these people don't want a state and that the world would therefore stand with Israel. Of all people to misunderstand the depth and tenacity of antisemitism, Sharon seems an unlikely choice. Begin wouldn't have made the same miscalculation.
Tom Beckett repeats facts true for 3,000 years of history. There's been an unresolved conflict and competition between Jewish, Palestinian (Philistine), and Egyptian people for that long.
With Israel maintaining a wall/pen around Gaza and with Palestinian protesters waving swastikas, I'm not expecting anything other than "no good options" for the rest of our lives.
This piece in Tablet argues that Israel should (and maybe would) go after Hezbollah as the real source of the problem, but is being stymied by Biden.
Biden’s visit puts Israel in mortal danger
Quaestor is not impressed with the strategic opinions of a general who has not fought a war of national survival. Maybe Beckett should channel the ghost of Monty and afterwards issue a revised article.
"The United States says the will destroy the Nazis, but who will govern Germany"?
There probably is not solution, and I pray for peace for all the young children on both sides suffering because of this stupidity.
However, destroying the rocket launching sites, and the tunnel system seems like it would make things much harder for Hamas to attack Israel.
I guess that Tom Beckett would have the Jews simply commit mass suicide and get it all over with, as they clearly cannot please him whatever they choose to do. If Hamas, on the other hand, is all dead, it will be difficult for them to take advantage of their political imperative.
Push every human being in Gaza to Egypt.
Leave Gaza completely void of people except IDF soldiers or UN soldiers.
Flatten it...not a single building...only dirt.
Now get the Palestinians to the table and show them all the land they can have back if they elect a new government and sign a treaty.
In the mean time, every tunnel can be filled with concrete.
If it takes a thousand years, so be it.
If Israel wants to be safe, it can't "get out."
The real question is not what Israel must do, it is whether the world will let Israel be safe.
I think not: the world, Joe B included, is fine with a "ceasefire" that exposes Israel to continuing terror, rocket attacks, and Iran-directed assaults. It's just Jews, you know.
Kibitzing from the safety security and unlimited wealth of the green zone while a friend and partner nation is in existential crisis isn't helpful.
No shit, Israel is faced with an impossible task. What's even more impossible about is they have to complete the task. If they don't do it now, the next time Hamas or Hezbollah decides to attempt a final solution to the Jewish question the response will be a thousand times worse for the Palestinians.
Israel has been constrained in the past by "what happens after" questions. I don't think they care this time. They'll decide the next domino when they get to it.
Here's a crazy idea, why doesn't Israel sit down with the Palestinians and negotiate. A separate state for them, and one for Israel. Then we don't have to kill people. Or have a "Ground offensive" in gaza.
Its amazing how the bloodthirsty ghouls in Congress and the White House simply refuse to negotiate. its always fight fight fight, spend spend spend, war war war. Our national interest is Peace in Ukraine and in the middle east. Its irreleant to the USA who controls Gaza or the west bank or the donbass.
As I said, that's the true USA national interest. But Biden and Congress love war, and love those campaign donations and graft from foreigners and the defense industry. Yee haw, lets kill some Russkies and A-rabs!
The worst recent act of American foreign policy in the region was when America recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. This essentially catapulted Netanyahu into leadership where he allowed more settlements with impunity.
Israel’s boast that it will “destroy “ Hamas is a necessary message that Netanyahu’s government must declare in light of their abject failure to keep Israel safe. It is the boast of the tyrant with a panicked fear of their incompetence and lack of understanding of national security.
Troops were taken from the Gaza border to defend the illegal settlements in the West Bank. In addition, Hamas was able to gain astonishing levels of information about Israeli defenses. This is all on Netanyahu. This is the consequence of believing populist boastfulness of know-nothing neo-fascists.
Israel needs to treat Gaza as the Romans treated Carthage.
The status quo as it existed on October 6th is no longer stable or tenable. I thought the most humanitarian outcome that was likely to happen was Israel shutting off the supply of electricity, water, and food from the Israeli side of the fence, mining every square meter of the border with Gaza and Egypt up to a depth of 500 feet, and shooting down anything that crosses the fence from the air.
The most likely strategy to work at stopping ground incursions and rocket attacks from Gaza is to force the population of Gaza to leave by starving them out- i.e. forcing the countries of Europe and Arabia to evacuate the residents or let them die.
The question is always what is politically possible.
You break it, you buy it.
The general is right, of course, but "no good options" might be the motto for Israel. Equally of course is that when--not if--the war expands, the troubles of a couple mill Palis will not garner much attention.
When crisis becomes cataclysm all bets are off.
In other news, I he French are being standup guys...
JERUSALEM, Oct 24 (Reuters) - French President Emmanuel Macron proposed on Tuesday that an international coalition fighting against Islamic State in Iraq and Syria be widened to include the fight against the Palestinian militant group Hamas in Gaza.
https://www.reuters.com/world/frances-macron-says-he-stands-solidarity-with-israels-fight-against-terrorism-2023-10-24/
Consider the example of Assad and Isis. Assad wages war against them in an utterly ruthless fashion. Early on, there was a lot of criticism of Assad. In the fullness of time though, we have come to realize that there are worse things on earth than people like Assad, most notably his opponents in Isis. Does anyone truly believe that Isis is worse than Hamas. The difference is not in their tactics but their choice of victims...Some further confused observations about the confusing situation in Gaza. Israel is right and righteous to make a disproportionate response to the atrocities of Hamas. They have done so. To continue now with a ground invasion of Gaza will not succeed in securing the freedom or even the lives of the hostages. Rather the opposite. In the operation some Hamas members will get killed but also a fair number of Israeli soldiers and a lot of Palestinian civilians. It's not a campaign that promises much in the way of glory or success....I wonder if there are any people in Gaza who look about at the devastation that the Hamas terror raid into Israel has brought down and questions whether it was worth it. Probably not in Hamas, but there must be some people there whose hatred of Israel is blended with an admixture of resentment towards Hamas.....The Indian Mutiny of 1852 was carried out with many atrocities, and the British responded with their own set of atrocities. The Indians accomplished more with the tactics of Gandhi than with a violent rebellion. That's something the people in Gaza might think about.
Rich, it's the Israeli people that are calling for the destruction of Hamas: liberal and conservative alike. The liberal Israelis that I know cannot stand BB Netanyahu. They also have a ton of empathy for the Palestinian people. And without fail they all wish for the complete and utter eradication of Hamas.
It seems like no matter what political stripe people paint themselves with, nuance is difficult.
Consider the example of Assad and Isis. Assad wages war against them in an utterly ruthless fashion. Early on, there was a lot of criticism of Assad. In the fullness of time though, we have come to realize that there are worse things on earth than people like Assad, most notably his opponents in Isis. Does anyone truly believe that Isis is worse than Hamas. The difference is not in their tactics but their choice of victims...Some further confused observations about the confusing situation in Gaza. Israel is right and righteous to make a disproportionate response to the atrocities of Hamas. They have done so. To continue now with a ground invasion of Gaza will not succeed in securing the freedom or even the lives of the hostages. Rather the opposite. In the operation some Hamas members will get killed but also a fair number of Israeli soldiers and a lot of Palestinian civilians. It's not a campaign that promises much in the way of glory or success....I wonder if there are any people in Gaza who look about at the devastation that the Hamas terror raid into Israel has brought down and questions whether it was worth it. Probably not in Hamas, but there must be some people there whose hatred of Israel is blended with an admixture of resentment towards Hamas.....The Indian Mutiny of 1852 was carried out with many atrocities, and the British responded with their own set of atrocities. The Indians accomplished more with the tactics of Gandhi than with a violent rebellion. That's something the people in Gaza might think about.
Serbia provides an example. South Africa set a precedent. Kiev sustains a rule. Anything, including genocide, is socially acceptable, including establishment of a progressive constitution. Iraq, Afghanistan, ... break it, then leave with haste.
Hamas’s political imperative and the population’s support for the resistance will continue.
All of this was true of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. Doesn't seem to be a problem anymore. What happened? The Allies decisively won the war. Wars don't win until someone wins decisively. Israel has never decisively won a war. Do they have the political will to persecute this one to victory?
We shall see but I assume that western democracies will intervene to save the Palestinians once again. A big difference is that the Arab nations appear to be tired of the Palestinian's aggression. And how will the long lost Abraham Accords impact the situation. I wonder if the media will even mention the Abraham Accords.
Offer up a bounty on Hamas and hezbolla members. So many thousands of dollars for terrorists. Dead or alive. You don't want Gaza to be a walled prison? Then prove you can act like a responsible people.
At the end of WWI, the Anatolian Greeks moved to restore their rightful place in Byzantium. They were defeated and were forced out of Anatolia. They found refuge in Greece. They became impoverished refugees and many of them joined the Communist Party there and participated in that country's civil war.....If you push the Palestinians out of Gaza they will destabilize where ever they end up. That includes Brooklyn and London....There are no good answers in Gaza. The best alternatives are catastrophic as opposed to cataclysmic. Here's hoping the Israelis and the people of Gaza can arrive at a solution that is just catastrophic.
At the end of WWI, the Anatolian Greeks moved to restore their rightful place in Byzantium. They were defeated and were forced out of Anatolia. They found refuge in Greece. They became impoverished refugees and many of them joined the Communist Party there and participated in that country's civil war.....If you push the Palestinians out of Gaza they will destabilize where ever they end up. That includes Brooklyn and London....There are no good answers in Gaza. The best alternatives are catastrophic as opposed to cataclysmic. Here's hoping the Israelis and the people of Gaza can arrive at a solution that is just catastrophic.
"rcocean said...
Here's a crazy idea, why doesn't Israel sit down with the Palestinians and negotiate. A separate state for them, and one for Israel. Then we don't have to kill people. Or have a "Ground offensive" in gaza."
Were you born yesterday?
The Israelis don’t have to hurry. Especially not because we’re getting bored and want to change the channel. They need to methodically set about killing every last Hamas member.
This is the greatest gift the Israelis can give the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip.
As for the members of Hamas:
1. As their organization is slowly destroyed, they will finally grasp that certain death is in their immediate future. That thought will so occupy their thoughts that they will lose their mental edge, making them easier to kill.
2. There will be a tipping point. The inhabitants of the Gaza Strip will realize that any association with Hamas could be deadly. They will start shunning Hamas, first subtly - then overtly. Hamas will become more and more isolated, making its members easier to kill.
When Hamas is gone, the remaining people of the Gaza Strip will be able to finally live their lives. The hatreds and sense of betrayal will still exist, there just won’t be any time for dwelling on them.
The teasing out of contradictions among the autocracies is of second or third order importance. Extending the reach of democratic cooperation and economic integration is of primary importance. Can this process be re-launched in today's Middle East?
The global advanced democratic archipelago centers on democratic cooperation and the economic integration that the ensuing increased trade enables. It is this positive sum game that is near impossible for autocracies to replicate due to their uncertain handle on reliability. Domestic autocracy is rarely a launching pad for international cooperation but rather predation.
In the Middle East, the Clinton, Obama, and Biden administrations attempted to broaden the cooperation among disparate states and improve overall economic integration by building positive sum international cooperation agreements over the past three decades.
Clinton came up with an architecture in his 2000 negotiations with the PLO and Israel that would have fostered economic integration within a political condominium while securing vital security guarantees for Israel. Obama tried to push this along by strengthening internal PLO police capability. Obama further tried to tie in a recalcitrant Iran with the Iran Nuclear Accord that would have created the largest positive sum cooperation agreement among antagonists yet. Biden tried to tie in Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States, and Israel in another positive sum arrangement.
If the Obama nuclear agreement and the Biden partnership agreement had succeeded at being implemented, then the Middle East would be effectively covered by two large mutual cooperation agreements giving all participants significant positive rewards. This would also be a something of a first involving both democratic and autocratic governments, at least within the Greater Middle East. The US would be the sustaining centerpiece of such cooperative webs — an real prize.
But democracy in Israel has given significant political power to what are blood and soil nationalist forces who want to annex land significantly beyond what reasonable land swaps to achieve defensible borders would mean or a reasonable treaty would allow. So strong but misplaced irredentism on one side has been met with intractable intransigence and resistance on the other fanned by ethno-religious hatred rather than having this cleavage ameliorated by cooperative arrangement. Putting an ethno-nationalist populist in the White House was a fatal flaw finally. In short, the North Atlantic cooperation arrangements (also replicated somewhat with the Far East democracies) has never taken hold in the Greater Middle East.
Is it too late for the type of cooperative arrangements fostered by democratic cooperation and economic integration to take hold? The world wonders.
Of the not good options doing nothing, i.e. the cease-fire, is the worst. Of the options left, Israel should indeed follow the denazification example we set in Germany. The Nazi party didn't die. It splintered into many groups like ISIS, Hamas, PLO, IJ, Fatah, Antofa and the IRGC. (Not an exhaustive list of course.)
For those born yesterday I suggest reading PIJ.org or the UN website or another source for a history of two-state solution, which has been offered many times, including the three-state solution Israel offered after the Oslo Accords. The sticking point, as everyone except rcocean and Crack already know, was that the Palestinian negotiators would never agree to Israel's right to exist in any capacity. Refused to even discuss a two-state solution. That is the historical asymmetry. No amount of whataboutism can change the fact that both parties have deep ancestral roots in the region stretching back before the founding of Islam. People who deny Jews lived there until the 20th century are just Nazi sympathizers now.
Thank you for self-identifying. Clarity is preferable to and far more important than agreement. And you've made your pro-genocide tendencies very clear.
I agree with Michael K on the Carthage precedent, and have been saying so since October 8. Some news sites won't publish that comment.
Unconditional surrender now, with war crime trials for all Hamas members, is the correct starting point for Palestinian self governance in future.
What if Israel were to occupy, say, 30% of Gaza. The northern 30%, of course. Then they could take down all those pesky buildings, dig up any unneeded tunnels, and have themselves some nice beachfront property. Establish a useful precedent, too.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-shows-foreign-press-raw-hamas-bodycam-videos-of-murder-torture-decapitation/
..captured through a call recording application on a victim’s phone, a different son reaches out to a different father. “Dad, I killed 10 with my bare hands,” the terrorist excitedly tells his father in Gaza. “Their blood is on my hands, let me speak to Mom.”
“Please be proud of me, Dad,” he adds.
Identified by his father as Mahmoud, the terrorist says he is calling his family from the phone of a Jewish woman he’s just murdered, and implores them to check his WhatsApp messages for further documentation.
But don't forget! according to rcocean.. It's ALL Israel's fault!
Remember folks, in WW2 we did not DECLARE WAR ON NAZIS... we declared war on GERMANY. Israel should just declare war on GAZA... and announce Unconditional Surrender.
I say give war a chance!!!! Israel should invade and surround most of Gaza.. take 20 miles on all sizes, including the sea, and cut Gaza off FROM ALL AID.
Cut them off from all aid... and force mass surrender sooner or later.. by siege.
Then keep all the land they took and make it part of Israel as 'preparations' for all the crimes of HAMAS. Then there will be no way for GAZA to obtain rockets to attack Israel. Simple as that!!!
GIVE WAR A CHANCE!!!
Tank,
You called it. rcocean can't see that there is no point in Israel's "sitting down with" Hamas right after Hamas massacred 1400 or so Israelis. I mean, if Hamas were like, say, the US at the end of WWII, and had the (presumed -- actually after Nagasaki there weren't any nukes left) ability to destroy its enemy utterly, there might be some reason for negotiating. But Israel has boatloads of strength, much of it purely defensive (e.g. Iron Dome). Demanding a "sit-down-and-negotiate" after that attack is essentially training Hamas that any time it wants to force Israel to bargain, all it needs to do is slay and/or kidnap another large bunch of Israelis. Even you (rcocean, not Tank!) cannot think that's a good idea.
"Then we don't have to kill people." Right. No need to kill people, since Hamas has already done the necessary slaughter, and rape, and beheading, and burning alive, usw.
Hamas's passion for "negotiation" has screwed it over more than once. Remember how peeved they were when Israel said, "OK, there will be no settlements in Gaza," and then just forcibly removed the 7500 or so settlers that were there? "But-but-but, we wanna negotiate! You're not letting us negotiate! How can we have our fun if you just take out your people and go home?" In fact, of course, it was very valuable to Gazan Palestinians to have settlers in Gaza, and a major hit when they just up and left.
I remember Gazans insisting that the settlements be preserved intact, so Palestinians could move right in. But ISTR that the settlers mostly blew up their property on leaving it. There was no cause not to; the land was vacant before there were Jews living on it, and it ought to be equally vacant after they'd left. I think I should have done the same.
Do what Biden did: just leave.
rcocean: Here's a crazy idea, why doesn't Israel sit down with the Palestinians and negotiate. A separate state for them, and one for Israel. Then we don't have to kill people. Or have a "Ground offensive" in gaza.
It is a crazy idea. Especially since that was the original plan in the 1940s, and you can see where that went. And it has been the plan ever since. Actually, Gaza is one of the rotten fruits of that idea. How did that work out?
Furthermore, where do you start negotiations when one side's non-negotiable dealbreaker is everyone on the other side be killed? That's not an exaggeration. That's reality.
You just know that Putin is getting a big kick out of this. How was anyone in Russia to know that the team up of Yassar Arafat and the KGB would yield such dividends.
Y'all simpin' for the Palestinians are being played. But I understand. You have an emotional investment. Someday it's gonna land on your number. it HAS to.
Any Israeli ground operations in Gaza will be extremely dangerous and costly. Further delays only serve to give Hamas even more time to prepare defenses, which will cost even more Israeli lives.
Here's a crazy idea, why doesn't Israel sit down with the Palestinians and negotiate. A separate state for them, and one for Israel.
You mean like Israel did for 40 years, with every offer rejected? For example, here's Dennis Ross on his negotiations involving Clinton:
He basically was willing to discuss all the areas where the Israelis were making concessions. He wasn't willing to discuss any of the areas where the Palestinians were supposed to make concessions. So it seemed like he had just said no.
"But what I subsequently learned - about 18 months ago, I had a dinner with a former Palestinian negotiator who'd been part of the delegation. He said the whole Palestinian delegation had decided among themselves they should accept it. They went back to Arafat, and Arafat said no. I subsequently heard from another Palestinian on that delegation who said Arafat thought he could still do a better deal under Bush because he thought maybe Bush will be even more forthcoming.
"And the struggle is what defined Arafat. He was prepared to do limited deals because they didn't require him to do something definitive. Arafat was someone who never closed doors, never closed options. The idea of ending the conflict was a step that was too far for him."
Their ploy was to keep changing the goalposts whenever Israel would make concessions. The last one I recall was to demand a "right of return" for all Palestinians to reenter Israel and become citizens. That of course was just thrown in because they knew that was a deal-breaker.
"You break it, you buy it."
Hogwash. The Bush Fallacy. Well, actually the Democrats Trying to Hobble Bush Fallacy. There is value in simply laying your enemies out. You have no obligation to raise their families.
rcocean tells us Israel needs to negotiate? Mr. ocean, have you read the Palestinian charter?
Israel doesn't care who governs Gaza, as long as they stop killing Jews.
RCocean said "Here's a crazy idea, why doesn't Israel sit down with the Palestinians and negotiate. A separate state for them, and one for Israel" They already did, then the Palestinians turned it down. The only state Hamas will accept is a Judenfrei middle east. If it has to be a fight to the death (and Hamas is dedicated to having that fight), I'm on the Israeli side.
"Israel needs to treat Gaza as the Romans treated Carthage."
Yeah, maybe drop a few nukes on them. Kill millions.
Sounds like a plan. I'm sure Jesus would approve.
Or we could just let everyone in Gaza come to the USA, that's Nikki Haley's idea. After all, the USA's not really a country. We exist to serve the world. And help the rich get richer. So why not?
Those who propose negotiation are comically naive. The endpoint of successful negotiation is a promise. A promise is a statement that one will do or refrain from doing something in the future. Assuming, counterfactually, that Hamas would make a promise, such a promise would be of little worth when the goal of Hamas is, and will always be, to kill all Jews. It is a death cult. A promise from a death cult that inevitably enables them to break their promise and resume killing is of less than zero value.
Some folks just need killing. I regret that the world is what it is. There is a reason why we didn't negotiate with the Japanese before taking Iwo Jima.
A question for rcocean:
How exactly is Israel supposed to "negotiate" with a group whose charter calls for their destruction, whose very reason for being is to kill Jews?
The ONE American Leader who could probably avoid and negotiate the prevention war in Ukraine, the Middle East, and Taiwan...is in a Manhattan Court room defending his property values because of a political prosecution.
Who wants to follow Biden and Blinken and punch this tar baby? Who thinks the American taxpayer can actually afford this? Who thinks our current military culture can support and win a three pronged war?
I sure the fuck don't. Pray for peace. Hopefully something will wake up Generation Z, but I'm afraid the brainwashing and indoctrination they received from the liberal education establishment is set in too deep. I don't want to see them have to learn this horrible lesson.
rcocean said...
Here's a crazy idea, why doesn't Israel sit down with the Palestinians and negotiate. A separate state for them, and one for Israel. Then we don't have to kill people. Or have a "Ground offensive" in gaza.
Here's an even crazier idea; why don't you quit chewing on that frozen hot dog long enough to pop your head out of your ass and do a little research? If you did you might find out that they've been attempting that for the last 50 years and that the Palestinians have constantly rejected the two state solution.
The Indians accomplished more with the tactics of Gandhi than with a violent rebellion. That's something the people in Gaza might think about.
And this is where Islamist Islam rears its head: there is no place in this version of Islam for passive resistance. I was just listening to Sam Harris and Eric Weinstein, two people with whom I almost never agree, on Islam as a death cult with no moral reckoning - if you die, great! If your children die, great! If infidels die, great! Bonus points if it's by your hand! They agreed with one another that the world is holding its breath waiting for moderate Muslims to conclude en masse that "jihad" is only ever that inward spiritual struggle of "Religion of Peace" fame.
Damn it, I wanted it to be a (though it could hardly be "the," given the competition) Religion of Peace. I really wanted that. I really believed that the "Arab street" could be persuaded... by prosperity, by the prospects for the lives of its children, by the wealth of information now available to everyone except North Korea.
I absolutely hate these people's continuing intransigence. They just keep doubling down, and landmining every path for Israel to liberalize their relationship further. They want to provoke the no-holds-barred war that no one else wants - everything they do and say leads me to that conclusion - because, for them, it's a holy war with no downside: their own deaths are righteous, their children's deaths are righteous, Israeli deaths are super righteous, aid workers' deaths are righteous...
And no, Crack, once again, I don't think "losing their homes" is reason enough.
At some point, ignorance cannot be a valid defense before the court. Evidence will persuade the honest man, but mendacity is impervious to evidence, therefore persistent ignorance betokens malice.
"...why doesn't Israel sit down with the Palestinians and negotiate. A separate state for them, and one for Israel."
rcocean calls that a "crazy idea", echoing similar callow notions worthy of an elementary school student broadsheet, but rcocean and others peddling this fraudulent scheme, this wretch calumny against the Jews, cannot be ignorant of the HAMAS covenant.
Read below the relevant passage that proves rcocean is promoting a criminal lie as foul as any concocted by Adolf Hitler.
from Article Thirteen of the HAMAS Covenant (1988)...
[Peace] initiatives and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals, and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.
The HAMAS Covenant puts the stamp of Islam on its dedication to a war of extermination by citing the Quran.
The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.
On October 7, we witnessed murders and rapists erupt from within Gaza determined to kill every Jew they encountered, whether actively fighting, fleeing or hiding -- just as predicted and endorsed by the HAMAS Covenant. To align oneself with HAMAS or draw any mendacious equivocations between Islamic Nazism and the lawful State of Isreal is to align oneself with the filthiest iniquity of history.
rcocean said...
Here's a crazy idea, why doesn't Israel sit down with the Palestinians and negotiate. A separate state for them, and one for Israel. Then we don't have to kill people. Or have a "Ground offensive" in gaza."
Were you born yesterday?
Indeed. Though this would explain a lot about rcocean's posts of late.
Dude, it's been done. The Palestinians do not want a state if they have to share any portion of the Middle East with Jews - not that there is any other piece of that benighted region where Jews wouldn't be instantly hounded out, as they were post-WWII (in numbers at least equalling the number of Palestinians who left what had just become Israel at the behest of its Arab neighbors, so they could come in and drive the Jews out of there too), and ultimately slaughtered.
"Any Israeli ground operations in Gaza will be extremely dangerous and costly. Further delays only serve to give Hamas even more time to prepare defenses, which will cost even more Israeli lives."
Bingo. Hamas has had over a week to prepare what are probably tens of thousands of booby traps...well if they were smart (not a forgone conclusion) that's what they've been doing. I know that's what I would've been doing.
Even with the D9 "Teddy Bears" there's going to be some hellacious mines, IEDs, and EFP-IEDs that will still slow the thing to a crawl just bulldozing buildings.
Putting a floor on their casualties I'm going to say minimum 15-20%. For Israel, that's a lot.
The only reason we are going to war now is that it might be the only thing able to rescue Joe Biden's chances against Trump.
There's little to no appetite for sending troops to Ukraine, but we can send them to the middle east.
Remember... Never let a crisis go to waste.
They'll spare no expense... in blood and treasure.
This isn’t hard. The kids who enlisted for service in the planetary forces in Starship Troopers got the answer to this so-called problem from their teacher
https://youtu.be/JyhfHQ_7Skg?si=LxX_p7K2j78TXc1O
In other words, why won't the jews just let themselves be killed?
I will say it again. The principle of proportionality in war is a recipe for continued conflict. Unconditional surrender works, not much else over time.
Moreover, it is the duty of Palestinians in the first instance to get rid of Hamas - or any other authority that commits such violence.
Just as we, as Americans, are unfortunately culpable in the crimes of our own government, though I like to think that ours have been smaller than those of most other countries. Certainly, I do not view as crimes, most of what the left considers such.
'You break it, you buy it.'
I wouldn't necessarily ascribe to the Powell rule.
Only Mark Milley is dumber.
The Pottery Barn rule isn't new or unusual--it's essentially international law. An occupying power is obligated to ensure (or attempt) the provision of something like normal services for non-combatants.
OTOH, distinguishing the fighters from the civilians will be made as difficult as possible by Hamas, and even a blitz in and out will produce mounds of dead, and horror stories aplenty.
Illustrating again the limitations of even the most skilled and sophisticated military to solve what are long term religio-ethno-national problems.
Going B.C. on their asses (the Carthage Option) may sound good but that's cataclysm territory.
'Sounds like a plan. I'm sure Jesus would approve.'
Not sure either aggrieved party cares what Jesus would do.
'The Indians accomplished more with the tactics of Gandhi than with a violent rebellion. That's something the people in Gaza might think about.'
That only worked because the colonialists were British and not Chinese or Russian.
Ask Tibet or the Uyghurs for that matter how things are going...
Typo alert: To align oneself with HAMAS or draw any mendacious equivocations between Islamic Nazism and the lawful State of Isreal [sic] is to align oneself with the filthiest iniquity of history.
This one is my fault. My poor stupid fingers are so accustomed to typing r-e-a, as real, reason, and reauthorization, they often refuse to type r-a-e.
After the invasion, Israel needs to govern Gaza and the West Bank. Hamas needs to be banned as a political party and its leaders and soldiers need to be publicly put on trial for war crimes. It won't be hard to prove their atrocities since they uploaded their war crimes to the internet.
The Palestinians need to be given two choices. 1. Keep living where they are as new citizens of Israel. 2. Leave and go to another country. And if they continue terrorist attacks against Israel, they should be hunted down and prosecuted.
The Palestinians have proven that a two state solution will never work because they can't stop attacking Israel and won't acknowledge Israel's right to exist.
If the United States, and other countries, persuade Israel to stand down and go back to the status quo of a few months ago, Israel will be reliving this nightmare over and over again for centuries.
This needs to stop now, and the only way is for Israel to assimilate the Palestinians into their society the same way that the United States assimilated the Confederate citizens back into the union. This might take several generations to accomplish, but it has to be done.
Jamie writes, "Dude, it's been done."
Here's a capsule history of the Jews in the Holy Land since the fall of the Ottoman Empire, profusely illustrated for the poorly educated victims of American academia.
rcocean said...
"Here's a crazy idea, why doesn't Israel sit down with the Palestinians and negotiate. A separate state for them, and one for Israel. Then we don't have to kill people. Or have a "Ground offensive" in gaza."
This has been tried repeatedly by Israel and has always rejected by the Palestinians. The Palestinians reject the right of Israel to exist.
Following a partial list.
1: In 1947 the UN offered two-states: One for Israel and one for the 22 Arab state. The Arab aggressors refused and invade the defending Israel with 7 armies.
The Arabs declared:
“This will be a war of extermination and momentous massacre, which will be spoken of like the Tartar massacres, or the Crusaders’ wars….
2: From 1948 up 1957 Jordan occupied the West bank. Egypt occupied the Gaza strip. The could form the 22 Arab state but they didn’t. The Arabs living on those lands didn’t require an independent state.
3: After the 1967 war, the defending Israel propose to give up most of the territory it had won in exchange for a guarantee of peace.
The Arab leaders answer was:
1: NO PEACE with Israel,
2: NO NEGOTIATIONS with Israel,
3: NO RECOGNITION of Israel
4: The Oslo agreement for the defending Israel was the path to peace.
For The Arabs named by the Soviet KGB Palestinians in 1968 the agreement was the path to establish mass terrorist cells , kill Israeli civilians and lie to the west.
"The Oslo Agreement is a Trojan horse; We plan to eliminate Israel"
Public declaration of Arafat in the Arabic language, made several times.
5: Clinton blamed Arafat after the failure of the talks with Israeli PM Barak stating:
"I regret that Arafat missed the opportunity to bring that nation into being”
6; 2000- On Taba negotiations Israel made unprecedented offers.
Palestinian response was to open the deadly terror war against Israel civilians
7: On 2009 the Israel right government lead by PM Olmert proposed Abas a detailed peace plan.
Abbas promised a reply!
He never returned to peace negotiations.
8: Obama required stopping settlements for limited time and negotiate.
Israel stopped the settlements for 10 month.
The Palestinians refused negotiations
9; 2020- President Trump, in order to brake the 72 years death lock , proposed a new peace plan including a $50 Billions packaged to be used to build a good future for the Arabs.
The Palestinians refused and cut the connections with USA and Israel.
10: Examples of the Arabs named Palestinians by the KGB in 1968 destroy Israel narrative said the Arabic langug:.
10.1: "WE ARE IN LINE WITH HAMAS OPPOSING ISRAEL’S RIGHT TO EXIST”
“ Our public statements recognizing Israel’s right to exist to the West are designed “to trick the Americans"
Mahmud Abbas declaration recorded on YouTube
10.2: Hamas and PLO charter, biding all the Arabs named by mistake Palestinians politicians:
: "The day of judgment will not come until Moslem's fight killing the Jews.”
""; PEACE AND QUITE WOULD BE POSSIBLE ONLY UNDER ISLAM WINGS”
“ Under Islam, Christianity, Judaism may coexist”
Read Hamas charter
10.3: “The struggle will not stop until the Zionist entity IS ELIMINATED""
From the PLO platform reaffirmed in the Fatah
https://www.quora.com/Has-Israel-ever-offered-a-two-state-solution
Jamie said...
"I was just listening to Sam Harris and Eric Weinstein"
I heard that last week. Even if true (and, to some extent, probably is) blaming radical Islam is very convenient after Zionists have already done the Palestinians wrong, and only makes one wonder A) why Zionists are so determined to live amongst them, and B) so determined to drop to their level of barbarity?
"I absolutely hate these people's continuing intransigence."
What people? The Palestinians have been wronged, so you hate they won't bow to power? Wow. Or you hate that Zionists are willing to become Nazis, putting people in concentration camps and killing them for "living space"?
"And no, Crack, once again, I don't think "losing their homes" is reason enough."
OK. But I don't see Indians, or Mexicans, or South Africans, or Cubans, or Haitians, or anybody else acting any different. Taking people's land - over their dead bodies - is serious business. Nobody cares about white's desire for easy access to consumer goods: you and your people are gonna have to become low-lifed murderers you are and kill them every last one of them.
Make Hitler Proud.
Jamie said...
"The Palestinians do not want a state if they have to share any portion of the Middle East with Jews"
Which is totally unreasonable on the Palestinian's part, after the Zionists have been killing them and living in their homes for 75 years, because - like the Nazis - the Zionists needed "living space." That's totally logical, ethical, and reasonable.
Damn the Palestinians for being born 3,000 years after those guys left.
Oh, that's easy. Israel roots out Hamas and then all those Harvard, Princeton, NYU students fill the void to save the Palestinians. They can move over there and administer Gaza. Once they turn 35, they can leave Gaza.
rcocean said...
"Here's a crazy idea, why doesn't Israel sit down with the Palestinians and negotiate. A separate state for them, and one for Israel. Then we don't have to kill people. Or have a "Ground offensive" in gaza."
If by "crazy idea", you mean something a bunch of college freshmen would think of while smoking pot, then yeah, it's a crazy idea. Here's reality: Hamas wants to eradicate Israel. Israel doesn't want to be eradicated. What do you propose as a compromise? Should we let Hamas eradicate half of Israel, with further eradications in the future as necessary?
'Here's a crazy idea, why doesn't Israel sit down with the Palestinians and negotiate. A separate state for them, and one for Israel. Then we don't have to kill people. Or have a "Ground offensive" in gaza."'
Here's my twist...give the Palestinians France and the Jews will keep Gaza.
They're going to take France soon anyway so it's a smart play...
"To align oneself with HAMAS or draw any mendacious equivocations between Islamic Nazism and the lawful State of Isreal is to align oneself with the filthiest iniquity of history."
No doubt. Have you acquainted yourself with this heart-warming tale? Excerpt;
"Given Shamir’s notorious activities, few revelations would have shocked me, but this one did. Apparently, during the late 1930s, Shamir and his small Zionist faction had become great admirers of the Italian Fascists and German Nazis, and after World War II broke out, they had made repeated attempts to contact Mussolini and the German leadership in 1940 and 1941, hoping to enlist in the Axis Powers as their Palestine affiliate, and undertake a campaign of attacks and espionage against the local British forces, then share in the political booty after Hitler’s inevitable triumph."
Right now, with no one to take the place of Hamas, I think Israel reoccupying Gaza might be the best option. It's a better option than an endless cycle of Hamas terrorist attacks followed by Israeli bombing of Gaza.
Israel needs to do what it needs to destroy Hamas in Gaza and at the same time work towards an agreement with the West Bank. There's reasons for hope there.
"Civilized Muslims (assuming that’s not an oxymoron)"
It's not. I have personally know many great Muslims, from Iraq, the West Bank, Lebanon, Somalia, etc. Many.
OK. But I don't see Indians, or Mexicans, or South Africans, or Cubans, or Haitians, or anybody else acting any different. Taking people's land - over their dead bodies - is serious business. Nobody cares about white's desire for easy access to consumer goods: you and your people are gonna have to become low-lifed murderers you are and kill them every last one of them.
Crack, get back on your meds. You are more and more ridiculous.
"The sticking point, as everyone except rcocean and Crack already know" (emphasis added)
DO NOT POKE THE TROLL.
"Rich" seems to have adopted the Hamas position. Rcocean thinks that the Palestinians will negotiate. I can't find it anymore but Dennis Ross published an op-ed describing wht Arafat walked away from in 2000. There is no reason he rejected this except insane desire for killing Jews. That is the bottom line. Islam for Arabs is a suicide cult.
rcocean: "Here's a crazy idea, why doesn't Israel sit down with the Palestinians and negotiate. A separate state for them, and one for Israel. Then we don't have to kill people. Or have a "Ground offensive" in gaza."
Brilliant! Why hasn't someone tried that before? We could call it a "two state solution." I know for a fact that no one has tried to do that before. Now, someone (rcocean? Crack?) only needs to dissuade Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran from their psychopathic Jewish blood lust. After all, "From the river to the sea" doesn't really mean a two state solution is impossible. It only means one of the two states needs to be some state other than Israel and that state can't contain any Jews. Easy peasy!
"Make Hitler Proud."
DO NOT FEED THE TROLL.
loudogblog, 2:30:
"After the invasion, Israel needs to govern Gaza and the West Bank."
Disagree.
Gaza needs to fall back under Egyptian sovereignty, and the West Bank under Jordanian. Each should offer citizenship to all the stateless Palestinians.
Both of these countries can then police up extremism among their new citizens, and stop cross-border attacks on their neighbor because neither wants to be at war with their neighbor. (They've seen that movie and several sequels. They've never liked the ending.) They'll be even more ruthless bastards about it than the Israelis are, but no one much will care.
Oh - neither Egypt nor Jordan wants those territories or those people? Well, TFB. You guys want that sweet, sweet U.S. aid to keep flowing just so you can keep saying "Not our problem"? Screw that.
The Crack Emcee: ""In truth, there are no good options" but don't let a little thing like that stop you."
What were the "good options" available to the US after the attack on Pearl Harbor?
Dont hold back any of that insightful and savvy wisdom you repeatedly tell us you possess....
Quaestor said...
Here's a capsule history of the Jews,...
Because patronizing people just comes naturally to you.
The situation in Gaza is undeniably complex and challenging. Tom Beckett raises valid concerns regarding the effectiveness and long-term consequences of an Israeli ground offensive. It is likely that a military operation alone will not address the underlying political and social factors that contribute to the support for Hamas in Gaza. The Israeli government faces the difficult task of balancing security concerns with finding a sustainable solution for the governance and stability of the region.
Jupiter said...
"To align oneself with HAMAS or draw any mendacious equivocations between Islamic Nazism and the lawful State of Isreal is to align oneself with the filthiest iniquity of history."
A very convenient thing to say after you've done heinous shit to piss them off.
Apparently, during the late 1930s, Shamir and his small Zionist faction had become great admirers of the Italian Fascists and German Nazis, and after World War II broke out, they had made repeated attempts to contact Mussolini and the German leadership in 1940 and 1941, hoping to enlist in the Axis Powers as their Palestine affiliate, and undertake a campaign of attacks and espionage against the local British forces, then share in the political booty after Hitler’s inevitable triumph."
Everybody was in on this but the Palestinians. They've just been in the way.
LLR-democratical Rich m/C****: "The worst recent act of American foreign policy in the region was when America recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel..."
LOLxInfinity!
The absolute lamest and pathetic attempt at deflection in service to the democraticals one could possibly conjure up at this point.
Truly, a new "high" in "low".
To even attempt to tie these recent events to Trump is beyond stupid...but it does fulfill 1 of 3 specific and explicit purposes the LLR-democratical Brigade of Rich/C****/lonejustice have for posting at Althouse blog:
1) lie about and smear conservatives
2) attempt to deflect every negative post involving the New Soviet Democraticals onto Trump/republicans
3) drive a wedge between Althouse and her readers
Transparent.
But only utterly.
Crack Emcee: "Damn the Palestinians for being born 3,000 years after those guys left."
Its as though you have Historical Ignorance Tourettes...and its getting worse.
Israel can seize some territory and expel everyone from it. This inflicts a price, in land, something the Palestinians will feel. They freak out about land, so they can pay in land.
This more humane than killing yet more people.
There's no point in trying to find a permanent solution because there is no permanent solution. There is no failure to get something that is impossible.
It's amazing how people forget Camp David in 2000. The Palestinians were going to get a state, and they walked away and went to war instead.
If they wanted to negotiate, they could have. Many times, many, many times.
I got a clue in 2000. I wonder why so many people still don't have one.
I’m convinced that Rich is an AI bot.
Crack Emceeyore keeps referencing 3000 years of Jewish absence from the scene. That's poor math, if nothing else.
I don't think Hamas will be the same with its ratholes stopped up, i.e., with the tunnels destroyed.
Have you acquainted yourself with this heart-warming tale?"
Thanks to the link, I am now. But I did read it, and frankly, the experience was similar to a bout of diarrhea. Firstly, that Ron Unz, a well-known antisemite, would describe the Stern Gang as influenced by or admirers of Hilter and his National Socialists, is not an unexpected inversion of the facts given the source. Most members of the Stern Gang were socialists, that's true, but they patterned their politics and methods after Michael Collins and the Irish Republican Army and not the Italian Fascists nor the German Nazis. Unz's premise is absurd, and to shore up that rotten structure Mr. Unz misrepresents his sources. For example, Unz cites Winston Churchill as "hostile and nasty" about the Jews, when in fact Churchill was hostile to communism and anyone who supported that ideology, Jewish communists included. On Zionism, he's quite different, and since that's more pertinent to the topic than the Russian Civil War, I'll quote the Right Honourable gentleman directly from Unz's source.
"Zionism offers the third sphere to the political conceptions of the Jewish race. In violent contrast to international communism, it presents to the Jew a national idea of a commanding character. it has fallen to the British Government, as the result of the conquest of Palestine, to have the opportunity and the responsibility of securing for the Jewish race all over the world a home and centre of national life. The statesmanship and historic sense of Mr. Balfour were prompt to seize this opportunity. Declarations have now been made which have irrevocably decided the policy of Great Britain. The fiery energies of Dr. Weissmann, the leader, for practical purposes, of the Zionist project. backed by many of the most prominent British Jews, and supported by the full authority of Lord Allenby, are all directed to achieving the success of this inspiring movement."
Unz treats other cited material dishonestly. For example, he points to Hitler's Jewish Soldiers by Bryan Mark Rigg as somehow supportive of his harebrained notions about Israel. Has Jupiter read that book? I have. I own it. I can put my finger on from where I sit typing this. The title is misleading. The subjects of that work were not Jews in any sense a non-racist would accept. In National Socialist terms they were not Jews either, they were Mischlinge (literally "hybrids"), part Jews.
(continued below)
(continued from above)
The racial Nuremberg Laws of September 1935 did not actually define who was legally to be considered a Jew. Thus, an additional decree was made in November 1935 which provided detailed definitions of Jew, Aryan, and Mischling.
Jews were defined as people with at least three full Jewish grandparents. A Mischling of the first degree, or half-Jew, was a person with two Jewish grandparents who did not belong to the Jewish religion or who was not married to a Jew as of September 15, 1935. A Mischling of the second degree, or quarter-Jew, was someone with one Jewish grandparent or an Aryan married to a Jew. In 1939, 72,000 first degree Mischlinge and 39,000 second degree Mischlinge were still living in Germany.
The Mischlinge issue was very important to Adolf Hitler. The policy in Germany was to assimilate second-degree Mischlinge into the Aryan nation, while first-degree Mischlinge were to be considered like Jews. In other countries, policies differed.
At the Wannsee Conference, attendees Erich Neumann, Otto Hofmann, Wilhelm Stuckart, and Friedrich Kritzinger proposed that all Mischlinge of the first degree be sterilized; however, they were overruled by SS-Obergruppenführer Reinhart Heydrich who condemned them all to extinction. Consequently, many Germans who never considered themselves Jews were deported to the ovens, whereas hundreds of so-called second-degree hybrids were conscripted into the Wehrmacht as German soldiers. The SS often insisted on a purge of all Mischlinge from the Wehrmacht ranks, but Hitler never enforced that demand, though he degreed that such "tainted" Aryans must be barred from commissions.
Really, Jupiter, you must do far better than you have up to now. Quaestor is not so easily dislodged from the Althouse catbird's seat.
@Crack and others
You guys can talk yourselves blue in the face about who was there first, but that won't change the reality of the present. Israel is there to stay.
I doubt if there is a square meter of soil on this earth that didn't belong to someone first but now belongs to someone else. Taken by force.
Iran is fighting a proxy war with willing participants. You want to solve the Israel/Palistine problem you have to solve the Iran problem first.
Unz.com, how pleasant
Nice obfuscatory language from the NYT. Disinformation, even. Hamas' political imperative and the popularity of resistance means the large majority of Palestinians want to slaughter or drive out all the Jews in Israel. The NYT can't say this. It doesn't want to.
Here's a guy making a stink the old fashioned way.
they had made repeated attempts to contact Mussolini and the German leadership in 1940 and 1941, hoping to enlist in the Axis Powers as their Palestine affiliate, and undertake a campaign of attacks and espionage against the local British forces, then share in the political booty after Hitler’s inevitable triumph."
This nutty story is another example of how crazy a few people can get through hatred. The IRA is another example. Neither has anything to do with sane people. The Palestinians are a mass psychosis example. In 2000 they could have had everything they wanted except killing the Jews. I should say anything a sane society wanted.
If the choice is between damned if you do and damned if you don't, then go ahead and do it, to the utmost. Eliminate the threat.
This is not a hard question. Pay Egypt to run a demilitarized Gaza. They have an incentive to make it peaceful. If Egyptians kill Palestinians, no one will have a problem with it.
Regarding taking Gaza. Don't bother to take the city. Push the 2 miles to the sea Southwest of the city. Take the 6 square miles of open land. Leave Hamas to rot. No need to ask Biden for more bombs.
Put Gaza under siege. Offer free passage to anyone in the "hospitals", to the west bank. Anyone who wants to leave after vetting can go. Then dig a trench around the city to below sea level. No one leaves.
This is what warfare was like when Jerusalem fell to Babylon. This is what the Turks did to the original inhabitants of what is now Albania. This is nothing new. It may take 6 months, but at some point without resupply the rockets stop. Hamas must surrender or die. No need to bomb Gaza. No need for urban warfare.
This still leaves the problem of the South, but I suspect Hamas shelters mostly in the city tunnels, not in the more open South. Perhaps Israel could let Egypt do the dirty work, since they will be in charge after Hamas dies. That is what Egypt has done in its own territory, wipe out the brothers.
Because patronizing people just comes naturally to you.
It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it.
Send them to their virgins.
"This needs to stop now, and the only way is for Israel to assimilate the Palestinians into their society the same way that the United States assimilated the Confederate citizens back into the union. This might take several generations to accomplish, but it has to be done."
There is a reason that Robert E. Lee was admired and respected, at least until the recent death of reason, as a leader.
Is there a Palestinian Robert E. Lee?
fee have discussed the problem of urban warfare, and no one in the West has notice the lessons from the Battle of Marawi, where Islamic terrorists took over the city for awhile.
Our soldiers know jungle warfare against communist and Islamic terrorists, but urban warfare was new for them.
One wonders why so few western reporters notice the lessons learned from there: You have to evacuate the city to eliminate the enemy.
You can negotiate with anyone if you actually want peace and to achieve a compromise. However, if your idea of negotiations is: "The other side gives us everything we want, in exchange for a promise that may or may not be kept"
Then yeah, negotiations wont work.
Frankly, the only way to get peace in Gaza/Israel/West Bank is to bring in a colition of great powers to broker a deal. And then guarantee the deal. The USA has shown they can't be trusted to be objective and can't be the sole broker. We have a gang of Pols in charge who think we're Israel's client state, instead of the other way round. "We stand with you, Bebe, how much money and how many bombs do want? Your sure? We can double it if you want. Excuse while I cry at your brave Israeli flagpin".
You can negotiate with anyone if you actually want peace and to achieve a compromise. However, if your idea of negotiations is: "The other side gives us everything we want, in exchange for a promise that may or may not be kept"
Then yeah, negotiations wont work.
Frankly, the only way to get peace in Gaza/Israel/West Bank is to bring in a colition of great powers to broker a deal. And then guarantee the deal. The USA has shown they can't be trusted to be objective and can't be the sole broker. We have a gang of Pols in charge who think we're Israel's client state, instead of the other way round. "We stand with you, Bebe, how much money and how many bombs do want? Your sure? We can double it if you want. Excuse while I cry at your brave Israeli flagpin".
Funny how no one has attacked Nikki Haley, her idea might work. just ship all of Gaza to the USA.
The analogy of Israel:Gaza to Union:Confederacy is fallacious. The North and the South had a common language and common religious, cultural and historical backgrounds due to their settlement as English colonies in the 17th Century. The Israelis and Gazan have none of those things in common.
Narr: "Crack Emceeyore keeps referencing 3000 years of Jewish absence from the scene. That's poor math, if nothing else."
I'm afraid its much more fundamental than simple math.
Dennis Ross published an op-ed describing wht Arafat walked away from in 2000. There is no reason he rejected this except insane desire for killing Jews. That is the bottom line. Islam for Arabs is a suicide cult.
How do you think that Arafat died a billionaire?
Jersey Fled said...
"I’m convinced that Rich is an AI bot."
Really? He's managed to convince me he's an idiot.
Iirc, last time "palestinians" were surveyed about 2 state solution, 75% refused.
There may nit be good options, but there are clearly bad ones. Leaving the status quo, where Hamas is still in control of Gaza is a clearly bad option. They, Israel, will have shown to be all talk and no action.
“What if Israel were to occupy, say, 30% of Gaza. The northern 30%, of course.”
That may have some possibilities, if Israel marked off a northern area of Gaza, 30%, warned everyone to get out, and bombed a 1/2 mile corridor east to the sea, then went in and cleared it into a DMZ with walls, then waited a while and cleared out the north and put the folks in the south. Then pump in an underground grout curtain and sound sensors to prevent tunneling. And NOT SETTLE the northern part, leave it empty and leveled, as a promise that if the Palestinians made a deal they could have it back.
This would be a price that the Palestinians could understand. A payment for crimes committed. And every rocket launched would result in a 250 lb bomb dropped in a place in southern Gaza culturally equal to what the rocket hit. The tricky part would be that the most southerly wall is accessible to the Palestinians so it would have to be defensible.
What people? The Palestinians have been wronged, so you hate they won't bow to power? Wow.
That is more or less correct: I hate that they won't bow to reality.
I believe that the 2020 election was neither free not fair. I have no idea what the actual outcome was because the voting and ballot and pre-election changes wrought by Democrats rendered the outcome unverifiable. But I live in the now, in a world in which I think it's possible no US election outcome may ever again be able to be verified.
My ancestors on the Irish side came to the US immediately after the Potato Famine, during which the prevailing attitude in Britain was apparently that the famine was God's judgment on the Irish. At least some of my family survived and came to the US, where they - though not immediately distinguishable by appearance - experienced blatant discrimination and prejudice.
The corporate counsel at my husband's former employer directly cost us an amount of money equal to a kid's full college education, cash out the door, not stock options or anything like that... and then, six months later, changed her mind about company policy when it would be her own ox that was gored. Our retirement will be materially affected by her decision.
These things happened. They are reality. I'm killing no babies over it.
As another commenter said, Israel exists. That's not going to change, unless Israel is wiped out by someone's exterminating its population. That's the outcome Palestinians want - in fact it's all they'll settle for, apparently, by repeated evidence. Do you really think that outcome is justified?
I keep asking; you keep dodging. What would you do in their situation? If you wouldn't do what they are in fact doing, why do you accept their actions as justifiable? What makes them either less beholden to a modern, recognized moral code or more worthy of complete capitulation by the rest of the world to their medieval tactics than anyone else?
pacwest said...
"You guys can talk yourselves blue in the face about who was there first, but that won't change the reality of the present. Israel is there to stay."
Fine - they did wrong - stop complaining people wanna kill them. Of course, people wanna kill them. A crime was committed and they committed it. Just because you're cool with it doesn't change that.
rcocean: "Frankly, the only way to get peace in Gaza/Israel/West Bank is to bring in a colition of great powers to broker a deal."
Takes two WILLING parties to make a deal. As others have pointed out, the Palestinian society as a whole doesn't want to have peace... or to be a bit more precise they want to destroy Israel. That's it. That's all. It's not "Oh, we want to prosper like Israel did" - it's "How can we kill them and take everything they have?"
1. Pervert your cultural focus to the destruction of your enemy, no matter what.
2. Get ass beat multiple times trying to destroy enemy.
3. Watch the money roll in from other countries that hate Israel.
4. PROFIT!!!
There is no incentive at all for peace, as far as the Palestinians go. Or at least any 'peace' longer than the time it takes to rearm for the next round.
Damned shame, too. Palestinians could have taken what they've got, and turned it into a ME Singapore or Hong Kong. (Like Beirut before Instead - they've consistently chosen war.
Dunno, man - maybe it's a sunk-cost fallacy where they've put so much effort, propaganda, treasure and blood into the fight they can't even think of abandoning it. I'm sure there's a lot of Palestinians who don't want war, but they have no voice, no recognition, and no power in their government.
The money comes in because they're willing to fight Israel. Winning isn't necessary - possibly not even desirable. The countries that pay them to fight look on them as so much cannon fodder - about as valuable as a box of ammo or grenades. Paid for, and expendable in war.
Funny how no one has attacked Nikki Haley, her idea might work. just ship all of Gaza to the USA.
Nope. Noticed how nobody in the area is offering to take in refugees? Egypt? Saudi? Syria? Jordan? Yeah, they've ALL had bad problems with the Palestinians. What do they know that we don't?
Perhaps the Palestinian culture is the problem, not just Hamas, Hezbollah or the PA. How did we destroy the NAZI culture in Germany? How did we destroy the Imperialistic culture of Japan?
There's no GOOD solution. It may require the destruction of the Palestinian people/culture as a whole - but there are solutions, some less terrible than others.
But the situation itself is not going to change until the culture does. And I don't see that happening in our lifetimes.
The perennially uninformed Crack Emcee (“Of course, people wanna kill them. A crime was committed and they committed it.”) is apparently unaware of centuries of Muslim antisemitism. His ignorance is particularly shocking, seeing as he once turned on a light for an Orthodox neighbor on Saturday, rendering him (in his own mind, at least) an expert on Middle East politics.
Still, the fact remains that Muslim antisemitism long predates any hint of Zionism. Fortunately for the Palestinians (should their leaders ever evince any care at all for their children), Israel does not interpret past Muslim crimes as a license for perpetual inhumanity.
Fine - they did wrong - stop complaining people wanna kill them. Of course, people wanna kill them. A crime was committed and they committed it. Just because you're cool with it doesn't change that.
First of all I would prefer that no one die, but we just don't live in that world. Second, trying to make this about past wrongs isn't very useful going forward. If you're not willing to deal with present realities there's not a chance in hell of a good outcome. Hatfield and McCoys forever. Not to say I think a good outcome is possible anyway. I'm not cool with any of this, but not my circus not my monkeys.
Thought experiment: Say Iran attacked Israel directly without the intermediaries. What is your opinion about how Israel should respond then?
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