August 17, 2023

"The simpler your case is, with fewer charges and fewer defendants, the faster it can move. The federal prosecution looks like..."

"... it’s an attempt to do the sprint. As for [the Fulton County, Georgia, case], it is hokey to say it’s a marathon, but basically it’s more like an epic with a giant cast of characters. The other one’s Raymond Carver, and this is Dickens... A RICO charge is the kind of charge you bring when you have a lot of different people connected in different ways, but who form a loose organization, or sometimes a very tight hierarchical one—say, a Mob family—who are all working toward a common goal. But that common goal has been achieved during a long period of time and in potentially all sorts of different places. So, it’s the perfect charge for something where there are a lot of moving parts. It’s the most narrative-driven of the types of cases you can bring, to some extent, because some part of the trial has to be spent establishing the fact that there was an enterprise...."

The "enterprise" was winning a second term for Trump. The various defendants were working toward that common goal.
Prosecutors love RICO statutes because, like I say, they allow you to go back in time, and fold a whole bunch of people into it. It’s a very powerful tool. Obviously, whenever prosecutors have a very powerful tool, they like to use it. And then that raises issues on the defense side and sometimes on the public side that the prosecutors are overreaching or going too far....
[I]n Fulton County a couple of years ago, Fani Willis indicted a RICO case against these teachers who were involved in this school-cheating scandal in Atlanta public schools.... [That] makes me say, “Huh, that seems too far.”...

The interviewer, Isaac Chotiner, asks the main question I am asking: "Is there some concern that you’re criminalizing normal political activity?" 

Morrison answers;

I would think so, yes. I suppose the defense of this, really, is whether all these actions were taken with the intent to corruptly overturn the results of the Georgia election and retain power, or just the regular “We’re just double checking.” Because candidates do have the right to request recounts and to make sure that things are normal and to raise questions and to try motions in court and all this kind of stuff. I’m really torn because it seems to me, if the allegations are true, that this goes far beyond anything that the United States has seen in terms of election interference from the highest positions. It makes sense to prosecute it. But I guess the fear would be that now we’re entering a period where every time somebody loses an election and makes any kind of complaint about it they’re going to get charged with racketeering. That would, obviously, be a problem.

The interview ends with a return to the Dickens analogy:

You can end up with “Bleak House.” I love “Bleak House,” but you can end up with something that nobody ever reads because it’s too long.

"Bleak House" is about an endlessly long legal case. I had a law school professor who would frequently just say "Bleak House!" — as a very concise way to say the cost of slogging through the case is greater than the benefit you might hope to get from winning it. 

62 comments:

rehajm said...

The other one’s Raymond Carver, and this is Dickens

Certainly similar fictions…

Iman said...

“…but who form a loose organization, or sometimes a very tight hierarchical one—say, a Mob family—who are all working toward a common goal.”


This reads like a good description of Girl Scouts of the USA and other “criminal enterprises”.

No joke!

Terry di Tufo said...

Jandyce and Jandyce and …

Enigma said...

If these are the current rules, let's go back in time and apply RICO to everything Hillary did and everyone she spoke to per her 1990s "vast right-wing conspiracy" allegations. This is because Crossfire Hurricane indicates there was actually a vast left-wing conspiracy with her in charge. Did SHE kill Vince Foster!?!?!

Destruction is coming your way after 30 years Hillary, and you are going to wish you stayed home and baked cookies. Dum-de-dum-dum.

Banana republic stuff.

rehajm said...

I’m really torn because it seems to me, if the allegations are true, that this goes far beyond anything that the United States has seen in terms of election interference from the highest positions

Good on you Morrison for applying some political rigor but holy fuck what a political legal blind spot- never heard details of Gore 2000 or the No Reasonable Prosecutor standard?

Alexander said...

I would think so, yes. I suppose the defense of this, really, is whether all these actions were taken with the intent to corruptly overturn the results of the Georgia election and retain power, or just the regular “We’re just double checking.” Because candidates do have the right to request recounts and to make sure that things are normal and to raise questions and to try motions in court and all this kind of stuff.

Ah, I see is confusion. A rookie mistake.

Because candidates with a "D" after their names do have the right to request recounts and to make sure that things are normal and to raise questions and to try motions in court and all this kind of stuff.

Easy thing to overlook. Which is the whole problem, really. Proles forgot they were proles for a minute, and now their intellectual and moral betters have to remind them forcefully who they are and what is what.

Blastfax Kudos said...

"allow prosecutors to arrange many characters and a broad set of allegations into a single narrative. Making the story cohere can be a challenge"

You know who else does this? Paranoid schizophrenics.

Larry J said...

“…but who form a loose organization, or sometimes a very tight hierarchical one—say, a Mob family—who are all working toward a common goal.”

You mean like the world's largest organized crime ring, the Democrats?

narciso said...

translation, we have a right and a duty to steal, David Boies has at least two ribbons from those campaigns

Inga said...

It’s a stretch to say that Trump was just “double checking” when he asked Raffensberger to find him 11.7K votes after saying that is how much he needs. No Democratic candidate ever did any such thing. Trump went way beyond just “double checking” on the integrity of the vote.

Chuck said...

This blog post triggered a thought on a related notion...

One unique thing about the Trump election crimes is that in 2020, Trump was the sitting, incumbent President. The chief law enforcement officer of the United States and the Commander in Chief of the U.S. Military. He was conspiring to wield that power to overturn the election. By reshuffling the Department of Justice. By invoking the Insurrection Act. By politically pressuring his Vice President. Et cetera, et cetera.

All of which gave Trump, unlike most accused election-mischief candidates, a unique ability to execute on malevolence.

I've been seeing some comparisons to 2000. "Why wasn't Al Gore charged for challenging an election? Why not charge Stacy Abrams for 2018?" In 2000, neither George W. Bush nor Al Gore had that power. And while Bush's brother was the Governor of Florida at the time, and while Gore's buddy Bill Clinton was the President at the time, we saw no evidence of any actionable interference by either sitting public official. Stacy Abrams had no legal-incumbency powers.

That, plus that little thing where Gore, and Abrams, exerted competently-handled legal claims to accepted conclusions but never tried to force or influence illegal acts.

Big Mike said...

The "enterprise" was winning a second term for Trump.

Fani Willis and the rest of the Democrat establishment are working towards the same thing, if they but realized it.

Kate said...

Haha! @Terry di Tufo beat me to it.

Ivanka's grandchildren will still be waiting for a verdict.

Leland said...

If the allegations are true? It goes beyond anything we have seen in the US?

The allegation is Trump tweeted that a public preceding was being broadcast on OANN. I guess to be fair, neither Twitter or OANN existed in 2000. How horrible for the United States that we have them now, eh?

Sebastian said...

"It’s a very powerful tool. Obviously, whenever prosecutors have a very powerful tool, they like to use it."

That's American "law" for you. A powerful tool for prosecutors to use at will.

"Fani Willis indicted a RICO case against these teachers who were involved in this school-cheating scandal in Atlanta public schools.... [That] makes me say, “Huh, that seems too far.”

So what? Willis suffered no sanction. There is no constraint.

"this goes far beyond anything that the United States has seen in terms of election interference from the highest positions. It makes sense to prosecute it."

And the criminal "it" is . . .?

"we’re entering a period where every time somebody loses an election and makes any kind of complaint about it they’re going to get charged with racketeering. That would, obviously, be a problem."

Not at all. As long as D persecutes R, it's all good.

"the cost of slogging through the case is greater than the benefit you might hope to get from winning it"

In Dem lawfare, the cost of the slogging is the prime benefit.

Iman said...

Perry Johnson in 2024!

“Wrinkled… Resting… Ready.”

Witness said...

there's no crime in requesting recounts, filing cases attempting to prove fraud, or trying to convince more people to vote for your candidate

once those things fail, though, there is a crime in pressuring people to overturn the results

Michael K said...

The clown show that is American law enforcement right now would be amusing if it was not destroying the country. The only people leftist prosecutors are prosecuting these days are political candidates of the Republican Party. Massive shoplifting, no problem. Raising the issue of vote fraud by Democrats? Prison.

narciso said...

as if al gore, john conyers, who took up the mantle in 2004, and hillary were not doing so, with the steele dossier, with appeals to the electors themselves,

traditionalguy said...

The Lawfare Operation of the Soros financed Destroy America Campaign focuses on eliminating their effective opponents. In this case the Bronx Developer Winner has done them great damage in their schedule for our destruction . But their real enemy is a sharpe trial lawyer who wins his cases, another NYC trained fighter named Mayor Giuliani. They fear him the most. To defend Trump from one of the Impeachment prosecutions, that SOB went after the Dem Gang in the heart of their money washing operation in Ukraine.

Of course Lawfare is a creator of headlines for the MSM to daily pound opponents as if they are criminals. But the best part of the tactic is draining Trump’s finances paying for 5 teams of $1,500 an hour trial lawyers needed to defend him against an army of DOJ and FBI legal talent paid for by the Feds with unlimited funds.

gilbar said...

Witness said...
once those things fail, though, there is a crime in pressuring people to overturn the results

So,
you're saying that Stacey Abrams IS a felon??
you're saying that Hilary! IS a felon??
you're saying that Al Gore IS a felon??
I'm Not entirely sure i'm following you

narciso said...

blue vs blue, the teachers union who paid for willis, along with soros

Darkisland said...

I always heard about Bleak House and had a horror of reading it. Never did until 30-40 years ago Masterpiece Theatre ran a BBC miniseries. I loved it. Partly because it starred Ms Peel and I've had a crush on her since I was 15. It, as well as another multi-part adaption, also excellent, is on Prime (or Netflix or YouTube or somewhere)

Since then I've read the novel a couple of times. It is a pretty good read. It is long but many best selling novels, think Tom Clancy, Ayn Rand, Neal Stephenson to name a couple off the top of my head are almost as long.

I just finished rereading Wareham's Falling into Battle series (Best WWI book ever). It is 7 books but could easily be in a single volume and would probably be quite a bit longer than Bleak House.

I suspect that most people who complain about Bleak House have never read it and have no idea what it is about other than an interminable court case.

I say Phooey! on them.

John Henry

Kakistocracy said...

I see the pro-Trump commentators all have their talking points this morning. Roughly:

diminish the charges by saying they were just idol chitchat/free speech
Hillary tried to overthrow the government
Russia hoax/witch hunt/'weaponization'
prosecutorial overreach
and, of course, Hunter Biden and the Biden "crime family.
Apologies if I missed any. Anyway, expect to hear these non-stop between now and any trial date.

All technical and political speculation aside, let us remember that these will be trials by jury. Not by the DOJ, Garland, Smith, Willis, etc. Trials by jury. The juries will determine if Trump and his associates are guilty or not, after hearing the evidence. The media should also remember this, or they risk contributing to Trump's lies about some sort of a witch hunt. Even the indictments were brought by juries. Not by the DOJ, Garland, Smith, Willis, etc. but juries. The US is one of the only countries that uses the grand jury to decide on indictments. If such a jury has already voted for these charges, you'd better believe the evidence is solid and these will not be easy trials for Trump.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

It’s a stretch to say that Trump was just “double checking” when he asked Raffensberger to find him 11.7K votes after saying that is how much he needs. No Democratic candidate ever did any such thing.

Democrats don't have to say it, Inga, because they are preprogrammed to go fiond the votes. Like Al Franken's team did in MN, magically finding ballots in a car on an Indian reservation; like the last two (or is it three now?) governos of WA state who have amazing luck "finding" ballots at the last minute; like the hideous practice of Ballot Harvesting that started here in CA where after all the legit cotes are tallied, Democrat operatives fan out across the land and magically "find" ballots, always just enough to push the D candidate over the finish line.

That you can post such preposterous crap about Trump without ever acknowledging how many candidates on your side do amazingly well in "finding" ballots is a testament to your low character. Nowhere in the call does Trump say "manufacture" or "create" ballots: he explicitly says they are out there waiting to be counted. The people doing the counting in Fulton County are shady characters so Trump was insisting that the the "red" counties also make sure they've counted every vote. You know like the slogan your side uses when they need votes: "Count every vote!"

That anyone could approve of criminalizing a request to find all legit votes stuns me. That's why we weep for our country. We are in the Twilight Zone with people like you and Chuck cheering the destruction of the country.

hombre said...

"The "enterprise" was winning a second term for Trump. The various defendants were working toward that common goal."

I don't think this cuts it. Most RICO statutes look for an ongoing enterprise, not one that has a single objective. Andrew McCarthy does a good job dissecting the indictment in the now odious National Review.

Lem Vibe Bandit said...

In a not so unlikely scenario, say Trump wins the White House again. Who in their right mind would want to work in a Trump administration? All these defendants charged under RICO having to lawyer up for years, essentially bankrupting many of them.

If Trump wins again, people crazy enough to want to work in that administration better get some, prosecution insurance, if there is such a thing.

Ron Nelson said...

"The 'enterprise' was winning a second term for Trump."

I guess I was part of that, but I only cast a ballot.

Rusty said...

Discovery is going to be interesting. On both sides. I'd like to be there for that.

Breezy said...

“…but who form a loose organization, or sometimes a very tight hierarchical one—say, a Mob family—who are all working toward a common goal.”

So why can’t these laws be applied to this set of prosecutors, bringing ridiculous charges against one person who is running for president, in a coordinated fashion? Bet there’s lots of symmetry in each person’s intent - even the Fulton County Clerk is implicated.

hombre said...

"...when he asked Raffensberger to find him 11.7K votes...."

Prof. Jonathan Turley offers up a more reasonable interpretation of Trump's statement, but what interest does Igna or her ilk have in reasonable?

As for Chuck, how does Trump exert undue pressure on Raffensberger as a lame duck President and a defeated candidate in one of the states where he was defeated?

It is difficult to discuss these things when one participant filters everything through the prism of TDS.

Kakistocracy said...

Read the indictment. It does not take up the question of protected speech but instead, details Trump’s corrupt intent to overthrow an election.

Speech is not a defense against this indictment and it will go nowhere as an argument in this case.

Read the indictment.

Lexington Green said...

"... something that nobody ever reads because it’s too long."

No. It is a terrific book, and a page-turner. Every page is good.

I am eager to read it again.

The Crack Emcee said...

I still think this is all gonna play out like something I've seen before,...

Kakistocracy said...

“In November 2020, a few hours after the US presidential election had been called for Joe Biden, Virginia Thomas, wife of Clarence Thomas, justice of the Supreme Court of the United States, sent a bizarre text to Donald Trump’s chief of staff, her old friend Mark Meadows. It read: “Biden crime family & ballot fraud co-conspirators (elected officials, bureaucrats, social media censorship mongers, fake stream media reporters, etc) are being arrested & detained for ballot fraud right now & over coming days & will be living in barges off GITMO [Guantánamo Bay] to face military tribunals for sedition”.


One might widen the gaze and say that in the ever-increasing greatly expanded information space, there are going to be wacko neighborhoods, places infused with the black magic of dark conspiracy.

A vast information space must be assumed a permanent feature going forward, therefore the "kitemarking" concept should be pursued and expanded so that all participants have some opportunity to see and hear all the voices in the public square, not just a few. There's too much self-reinforcing self-selection going on today (which is a form of censorship that is self-created and what is worse subject to manipulation by others).

A key feature of the coming Trump criminal trials is that speech (information beliefs) are unregulated and not subject to public censorship but that actions are subject to strict accountability; otherwise a functioning, interacting human society becomes impossible.

The best inoculation against conspiracy theories from the fringe infecting the broader political process with a view of overthrowing democratic governance in favor of some reactionary "elite" is to stigmatize political parties with defeat who peddle extremist doctrines.

Trump rode a populist wave into power — and populist is very people based — and then tried to leverage that people power into an autocratic overthrow, which is the opposite of being people based.

One would expect most of Trump's populist base to erode down to a much narrower conspiracist base as additional information is exposed in the public square. If that doesn't happen, then some very harrowing questions are in the offing. One question might be whether or not the plutocracy is using their money as Supreme Court sanctioned free speech to overthrow a democracy supposedly based on free speech? The opening anecdote about Virginia Thomas raises disturbing questions. We now know who her husband works for. Who does she work for?

Chuck said...

As for Chuck, how does Trump exert undue pressure on Raffensberger as a lame duck President and a defeated candidate in one of the states where he was defeated?

At least two or three ways, right off the top of my head.

1. During his call with Raffensperger, Trump threatened him with legal action, to the extent that Trump said that Raffensperger and his attorney would both be guilty of violating "the law" if they didn't do something about voting irregularities that Trump was claiming.

2. After his call with Raffensperger, Trump issued a statement -- a manifestly false statement -- to the effect that he had asked Raffensperger questions about the Georgia election that Raffensperger couldn't and/or wouldn't answer. The bully pulpit of the Presidency, weaponized against a state's election officer.

3. We only know the Raffensperger call in detail. There were other calls. Calls that appear to have included now-Lt. Gov. Burt Jones, who is Unindicted Co Conspirator 8. Jones later had dinner with VP Pence, armed with a letter undermining Raffensperger and the Georgia election and asking Pence to hold up the electoral certification on January 6. I think Jones is going to be indicted soon. And he's a case that has so much to lose, he might flip fast and flip hard.

I think there are more. That's right off the cuff for me, in the interest of giving you a prompt reply.

Elliott A. said...


"One unique thing about the Trump election crimes is that in 2020, Trump was the sitting, incumbent President. The chief law enforcement officer of the United States"

And therefore has a constitutional duty to "take care that the laws are faithfully executed". If election laws were not lawfully followed, it is his duty to point that out and try to remedy the problem. Unfortunately, the true racketeers were always a step ahead of him. Al Gore asked multiple Florida officials to "find" votes in 2000. Alan Dershowitz was the legal spearhead of the effort to change the election result and the Trump team followed their playbook.

NKP said...

Re. Rich's comments on the verdict being rendered "by a jury".

I believe an Atanta jury will look a lot like a D.C. jury. Big city juries probably reflect big city voting demographics. Not good news for the Trumpster.

OTOH, could a trial finally give Trump a day in court to shine a light on facts that so many courts refused to examine?

Iman said...

an igna rant…
that’s Rich!

boatbuilder said...

In every situation where there have been election complaints and "irregularities", not just in 2020 but going back as far as I can remember, one thing which stands out is that the vote-counting and processing procedures are confusing, poorly understood, arcane, murky and chaotic; typically "experts" are required to explain things to judges when litigation ensues; virtually every district and precinct has its own methods and rules, which often seem to change at the whim of "election officials." Votes are "lost" and "found" hours, days and weeks later; arbitrary deadlines are set and set aside.

Bleak House, indeed.

But this, and only this, election is the one in which a candidate and his supporters who seek to explore and challenge doubtful and questionable procedures and "results" get charged with racketeering?

Perhaps someone in GA can explain to me exactly what Trump and his supporters were supposed to do to challenge the rather obvious "shenanigans" that went on--and show me where that was written down in the law. Making up new rules after the fact is completely bogus.

buster said...

The rate of acceleration at which the electoral system is being corrupted is breathtaking. Russiagate in 2016, millions of anonymous mail-in ballots in 2020, and now this legal grotesquerie.

Kate said...

"No. It is a terrific book, and a page-turner. Every page is good."

Agree. It's my favorite, with Copperfield a close second. Who but Dickens would arrange for a character to spontaneously combust?

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

Trump steps on his dick.. we know this - but the context of his "asking to find votes" was due to the fact that the Biden vote totals shot up in statistically impossible ways.
Also - again - this is speech.

Jaq said...

The kinds of transparently laughable arguments that Chuck uses, that only make sense to people who already believe them before even hearing them, are the reason that Trump is leading by 8 with independents in the last Marist poll.

Jaq said...

"No Democratic candidate ever did any such thing."

Gore, 2000. The difference is that every message ever sent by Gore didn't end up in the public domain, but in fact Gore tried very hard to "find" votes, and to pursue his right to "find" those votes in court, in Congress, by objecting to electors, and in the Electoral College, by trying to flip electors.

wendybar said...

Jonathan Turley
@JonathanTurley
·
Follow
As politicians and pundits conga-line around this story, there is little concern over the growing anger and divisions in the country. They could conga into a disaster if the 2024 election becomes another vote against the establishment.
https://themessenger.com/opinion/washingtons-whoo-hoo-moment-trump-indictment-coverage-borders-on-the-indecent

Leland said...

Inga, oops Rich said;
Read the indictment. It does not take up the question of protected speech but instead, details Trump’s corrupt intent to overthrow an election.

Speech is not a defense against this indictment and it will go nowhere as an argument in this case.


Fine then, it is a case in which a state prosecutor is attempting to interfere in the business of federal employees on the notion that their federal interest in free and fair elections is racketeering against the state of Georgia. Case dismissed on grounds of federal supremacy.

We have things called trials because indictments do not determine the guilt of the accused. If you can not explain how the indictment leads to anybody being guilty, and your only response is read the indictment with the list of all the names of the grand jury, oops sorry; then you are not making an argument that matters to the trial jurors.

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

Trump trials will occur on whatever timeframe is most advantageous to Democrats. Does anyone really doubt that? Meanwhile Diaper Joe’s hand-picked SC will slow walk his non-investigation for years, milking taxpayers for yet another Democrat charade until Joe either dies or withers away into assisted living.

Old and slow said...

" Kate said...
Who but Dickens would arrange for a character to spontaneously combust?"

I would have guessed Douglas Adams for that.

Harun said...

I reviewed some disputed elections, like Gregoire vs. Rossi in WA.

So, in November when Rossi had "won" would Gregoire's team, calling up counties and trying to find ballots (which they did find) would that be considered RICO?

But then she won, so Rossi was actually RICO.

Harun said...

"Logan announced on December 13 that 561 absentee ballots in the county had been wrongly rejected due to an administrative error.[16] The next day, workers retrieving voting machines from precinct storage found an additional 12 ballots, bringing the total to 572 newly discovered ballots. Logan admitted the lost ballots were an oversight on the part of his department, and insisted that the found ballots be counted. On December 15, the King County Canvassing Board voted 2-1 in favor of counting the discovered ballots."

Please tell me if finding these ballots, even LOOKING for them would be a conspiracy.

"Upon examination of the discovered ballots, it was further discovered that, with the exception of two ballots, none of the ballots had been cast by voters whose surnames began with the letters A, B, or C.[17] There was a further search for more ballots, and on December 17, county workers discovered a tray in a warehouse with an additional 162 previously uncounted ballots.[17] All together, 723 uncounted or improperly rejected ballots were discovered in King County during the manual hand recount."

WOW YOU CAN FIND BALLOTS.

Harun said...

"Upon examination of the discovered ballots, it was further discovered that, with the exception of two ballots, none of the ballots had been cast by voters whose surnames began with the letters A, B, or C.[17] There was a further search for more ballots, and on December 17, county workers discovered a tray in a warehouse with an additional 162 previously uncounted ballots.[17] All together, 723 uncounted or improperly rejected ballots were discovered in King County during the manual hand recount."

This is Al Franken's election where they found ballots in the trunk of a car.

So, its okay for Democratic operatives to contact counties looking to "find" more ballots.

Not a RICO case.

Note Elias was part of the Russia Hoax, but no RICO for that either.

Michael K said...


I just finished rereading Wareham's Falling into Battle series (Best WWI book ever). It is 7 books but could easily be in a single volume and would probably be quite a bit longer than Bleak House.


Have you read his WWI RFC series? Just as good. His WWII RAF series with the same characters is not as good. Much more interesting than this nonsense about phony indictments.

Richard Dolan said...

The RICO statute prohibits the participation in an "enterprise" through a "pattern" of "racketeering activity." A RICO "enterprise" can be simply an association in fact of individuals united by a common objective to achieve some criminal result. A "pattern" can be as little as two acts that show each defendant's participation in the "enterprise." "Racketeering activity" is defined as actions that independently violate a series of other criminal statutes -- acts of murder, extortion, etc. But the crime defined by RICO is not the predicate acts of "racketeering activity" -- it is the participation in the enterprise through the pattern that is the RICO crime. A RICO conspiracy prohibits an agreement to do that.

There are many problems with the RICO charge in Georgia but one of the most obvious (Andy McCarthy has been particularly focused on pointing out this problem) is that almost all of the predicate acts of "racketeering activity" alleged in the Georgia indictment are not crimes in themselves, and so can't be predicate acts of "racketeering activity." In addition, the objective of keeping Trump in office is not itself criminal.

On top of that are all the First Amendment and other constitutional issues raised by this prosecution. Many have focused on the obvious free speech issues, but there's also the First Amendment right to petition for the redress of grievances (Trump had a grievance and was entitled to ask the governors, etc., to redress his grievance about a stolen election, fraudulent voting procedures, etc.). It makes no difference that Trump didn't have a factual basis to prove his grievance -- that was something for the authorities to decide. And they did by rejecting his 'grievance.' But he had a right to present it regardless. There are still other issues under Art II -- Meadows responding to Trump as the White House chief of staff. Very hard to see how, given the supremacy clause, any state can intrude on that relationship quite the way this indictment tires to do. The, Supreme Court has often held that all of those provisions need breathing room and that concern will be especially acute when state prosecutors seek to second-guess how the President interacts with his staff.

And those just scratch the surface of the many, many difficult and unprecedented issues raised by this indictment.

This case is going to result in a tsunami of defense motions, not only attacking the indictment on its legal theory, but seeking to change the forum (that's already happened with Meadow's motion to move the charges against him to federal court); motions to change the venue to another county in Georgia; motions for severance by some defendants; and on and on. It will never be ready for trial next March as the prosecutor has requested. I doubt that it will ever be tried in Trump's lifetime -- it's a colossal mess and is not likely to survive in its current form.

The only people who standard to profit from this exercise in prosecutorial overreach are the legions of junior law faculty looking for a subject for their 'tenure piece'. The four Trump indictments will be the subject of a thousand law review articles -- given the partisan leanings of the junior faculty, most of them trying to tiptoe through the legal minefield to reach the 'right' conclusion. All the rest of us are losers when prosecutors behave this way.

iowan2 said...

Speech is not a defense against this indictment and it will go nowhere as an argument in this case.

Yes, we know. The Prosecutor has so ruled.

Facts on the other hand say it plays a huge part in the defense.

Rusty said...

Michael K said...

"I just finished rereading Wareham's Falling into Battle series (Best WWI book ever). It is 7 books but could easily be in a single volume and would probably be quite a bit longer than Bleak House.

Have you read his WWI RFC series? Just as good. His WWII RAF series with the same characters is not as good. Much more interesting than this nonsense about phony indictments."
In 1915 or 16 Stewart Warner sent my grandfather the Vickers of Canada to work on the the interupter system for their aircraft machine guns. He was 18 years old.

Inga said...

“Inga, oops Rich said;”

Thanks for thinking Rich is me, however you are mistaken. Rich’s writing skills are much better than mine and I appreciate his commentary here. I don’t have the patience or desire to do much commenting anymore, so thanks Rich and other non Trumpist commenters, your insights are like a ray of sunlight and fresh air in the Trump caves.

Kakistocracy said...

iowan2 wrote: “Facts on the other hand say it plays a huge part in the defense.”

The prosecutor thinks otherwise. It’s up to the jury to pass a verdict. What are you afraid of? Why do you not at least respect the courts?

Kakistocracy said...

Mark Meadows is charged with just the RICO conspiracy count and then one criminal account. It is an engraved invitation to flip. Just some simple eyewitness testimony linking the principal to the threads of conspiracy. He's also not a lawyer and probably one of the goals of both prosecutions is to make examples of lawyers who try to overthrow the Constitution. He can trade and walk; the lawyers probably can't.

The prosecutors in both Washington DC and Atlanta are building situations of extreme leverage over both indicted and unindicted co-conspirators. Lack of financial resources will be an issue for almost all of them.

Almost all the defendants lack the resources to mount a sustained defense parallel to Trump's expensive defense. Apparently the glitter in Giuliani's checking account is down to fools gold. The lawyers playing the various Trump games were opportunistically looking to cash in on being part of the Trump political parade. Instead, most of them are looking at financial and professional ruin and probable disbarment. Maybe some of them believed; what else could explain such execrable judgment?

Tina Trent said...

Fani Willis prosecuted those Atlanta teachers because they and their bosses participated in organized fraud from which they personally profited. They held "erasing parties" where they changed wrong answers to right ones in order to recieve huge personal bonuses from the state for improving test scores. They were warned against doing this and kept doing it anyway. And the people who organized the fraud and made the biggest bonuses -- the superintendant and some principals -- were the ones who got the jail time, for fraud and theft of public funds. Another teacher got time for enrichment by fraud and for lying repeatedly under oath. The lower-level teachers who felt pressured to participate were all given plea deals.

Look at it this way: along with stealing from the taxpayers, they were stealing from their extremely needy students, because instead of acknowledging that the children couldn't adequately read or write, or that they were teaching them wrong, or that the children needed more resources for earlier educational interventions, they ignored the childrens' real, life-changing needs in the interest of pocketing the money in the name of bonuses gained by unambiguous lawbreaking.

Good on her for that. Teachers aren't some special class of people, and they lie extravagantly about how little they make and how hard they work compared with other people. Here are some facts:

https://www.city-journal.org/article/no-teachers-are-not-underpaid#:~:text=At%20the%20lowest%20skill%20levels,than%20similar%20white%2Dcollar%20workers.

Tina Trent said...
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Steve in CO said...

If you have enough dots you can draw any picture you want. You don't even have to use all the dots.