[Ramaswamy echoed the Barack Obama line] “Who the heck is this skinny guy with a funny last name?”
That skinny guy quickly became a punching bag for rivals, led by former Vice President Mike Pence, who invoked his experience to say that it wasn’t time for a “rookie” who needed “on-the-job training.”
Former Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey recalled the Obama line, quipping, “I’m afraid we’re dealing with the same type of amateur.”
But Mr. Ramaswamy smiled his way through the night... He stirred controversy to soak up screen time, and lobbed some of the evening’s most strikingly personal slights.... The Harvard-educated Mr. Ramaswamy came off at times as slick — Mr. Christie dismissed him as “a guy who sounds like ChatGPT” — but he was the one everyone else was talking about, a victory in itself.
That was the most interesting line of the night: "a guy who sounds like ChatGPT." In other words, you give him a prompt and he comes out with many perfectly coherent and substantive sentences. That's an insult that should backfire. It was, essentially, You're superhumanly smart and communicative.
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83 comments:
Ann Althouse, You're superhumanly smart and communicative.
That was my experience when I saw him. I was floored. Watching him talk is like watching a great athlete. Magis.
I've seen wildly different impressions on Ramaswamy's performance by different sources I respect. I'll be interested to see how it translates into poll results.
I now know how to refer to the chatty candidate.
It's "Viv-ache." I needed a Tylenol PM after that much of him.
Ramaswamification!
Vivek skirts close to being a 9/11 truther, and is okay with Putin keeping what he's seized, and is also fine with China invading Taiwan.
Um, no thanks.
I generally am impressed by Vivek, but honestly he grated at times last night. Some of his interruptions were just obnoxious. I did like his retort to Christie about running a grievance and revenge campaign, though. And when he listed those facts toward the end - that was pure gold. He’s got guts, thats for sure. I do think he’s green though, particularly on foreign policy, so he needs to find some path there that helps steer the conversation with less of a know-it-all stance.
DeSantis was uncomfortable but got his message out. He also seemed wiser to me regarding priorities and focus. I think he’d deal effectively with the border crisis.
I wanted to throw a shoe at Pence every time he wound up. What a pompous ass. All his talk about the Constitution over one man is BS coming from him. He’s all about his own self righteousness. Puke.
Crikey, I’m so glad I didn’t invest in that shit. All you folks clamoring for debates a few days ago…well, you got em and this morning’s hot take is who had the snappiest one liners. Apparently the winners were the ones who could best recycle Obama lines…
You get the government you deserve…
…and what the hell is Pence thinking with the ‘experience’ angle? What audience is going to be responsive to that coming from him….besides DC GOPe insiders?
Is this a debate about real things or a likeability contest?
For an organization that released the 1619 Project as a flagship research effort, anyone half-intelligent sounds like a magical computer.
The NYT is no longer a credible source, no longer "the paper of record," and no longer worth reading.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdPmNM0IF7Y
Ramaswamy is going to defund the FBI and get to the bottom of what happened on 9/11, give the "Russian speaking" half of the Ukraine to Russia and put us on the gold standard. This man is kooky.
I didn't watch, as I quit watching all debates after Romney, and the GOP, just let the moderators debate them with false information. However, I'm enjoying the recap from the post and comments. Pretty rich of a man like Mike Pence to suggest the Presidency isn't for rookies needing on-the-job training. That's how I felt about Pence since Trump picked him. I've never had interest in Christie.
I generally am impressed by Vivek, but honestly he grated at times last night.
Not just debates, but generally I try to avoid listening to politicians. I've listened to Vivek, because he has been a guest on various podcasts I enjoy. I'm impressed, but he grates on me as well. I'm certain that the annoyance is his narcissism. Rush Limbaugh once remarked on this in general about politicians. You have to be a narcissist to survive the campaign required to reach the White House. For such reasons, I suspect Jordan Peterson opted not to waste time pointing out this negative trait of Vivek, because it is a positive in the role he desires. Still, it is grating to listen to over an extended period of time. It's another reason to avoid debates in general, because the least annoying guy won't have what it takes to survive the election.
The entry level job business...
That was one of Trump's problems. He didn't know how Washington works. He didn't have a brain trust of people who were loyal and did know how Washington works. The Deep State activated its immune cells and encysted him into impotence.
I have no doubt he's a very smart guy and no doubt he means well. But couldn't he settle for a couple of years as a Congressman while he learns the ropes?
Chatgpt will not turn into a compliment in this election cycle.
Chris Christie?
Well, if i was looking for a Fat, establishment bozo, that hates America and HATES me..
I think i STILL wouldn't be that interested in Chris Christie
Serious Question:
In his LIFE WHAT has Chris Christie Ever accomplished? i mean other than toll bridge scandals?
Sounds like Desantis should be glad that the Tucker/Trump show was running at the same time.
Ramaswamy is smart. Like Trump he is getting $millions in free advertising. He is playing the media like a fiddle. Like Trump, the leftist media may play a major roll in electing a Republican President.
I like Vivek and he did a great job keeping the spotlight on him. I thought he came in a little bit hot and aggressive with lines like ‘I’m the only candidate that’s not bought and paid for.’ I’ve watched a lot of his interviews on the YouTube and he does well because he’s able to push back in these long form formats in a likable way - he disagrees without being disagreeable. He was a bit less likable last night but showed he’s willing to fight and that he has vision. Big night for Vivek.
Most surprising part of the debate was seeing what a prick Mike Pence is. He’s such an entitled jerk - looks and acts like a villain from an 80’s movie.
The "bought and paid for" line was not substantiated and came off like a scripted insult launched at the first opportunity. This and other needless provocations were off-brand (at least IMO) and disappointing. I like Vivek overall, but based on that debate performance it wouldn't surprise me if the NYT determined he would be easier to beat in the general than DeSantis.
According to people who actually watched - Vivek was not the star of the show.
I doubt anyone at NYT even watched it.
Rehajm - Pence was Trump's pick for VP. Pence was not a DC insider prior to his becoming Trump's VP. Pence is hardly a DC insider.
Pence was a governor.
Note that no-one is happy about anything foreign policy wise... from any candidate.
Support Ukraine = bad - you war monger.
Don't support Ukraine = Bad - you heartless pro-Putin bastard.
and on and on...
You're superhumanly smart and communicative.
Yeah I don't get how that's supposedly a big slam on Vivek. You can't have him be "a “rookie” who needed “on-the-job training.”" and as smart as an artificial AI.
I think it was supposed to be a racial joke. He's one of those Indian programmer types.
To my ear, everybody but Vivek and DeSantis was running to be Jeb Bush's running mate circa 2015. The room has changed folks. Ditch the political consultants.
I watched the Tucker-Trump interview. 164 million views in twelve hours. Will blow the Fox Debate ratings out of the water. It was the "who cares" debate.
The Biden regime perp walked political opponents in GA yesterday for the crime of being right about the 2020 election fraud.
Saw a clip of DeSantis saying "this election is about Jan 2025, no Jan 6, 2021". No Ron. It's about defeating installed totalitarianism.
Done. Any GOP candidate that does not understand the urgency of the current threat is either 1) corrupt, 2) a moron, or 3) owned by the GOPe and uniparty. RFK Jr. is better than any of the GOP candidates on the stage last night.
Chris Christie is an asshole. Makes prefect sense he's from New Jersey. Mike Pence is a coward and a sellout. Asa Hutchinson is not even relevant. Nikki Haley could slip back into NeoCon clothing in an instant. Vivek is a flash in the pan. MAGA likes him, but will vote Trump. MAGA likes DeSantis but doesn't trust he isn't in bed with Karl Rove.
Vivek, DeSantis, ok. The rest were a joke. Last night made the GOPe more irrelevant that before the debate started. Fox News too.
Ratings will be low. Trump Tucker interview will crush them. Trump was right in the interview. Pence had the authority to send the electors back to the voter fraud State Legislatures. Pence was a coward who betrayed the entire nation.
Trump and Tucker won the GOPe debate last night by not showing up. He made it an irrelevant side show.
Hands down, clear winner.
How would the NYTs know who "seized the spotlight" at a GOPe debate? What a joke.
Ramaswamy speaks the gibberish which is required in MAGA world. I've never heard such canned nonsense.
How many Republican presidential candidates does it take to change a lightbulb? None. Trump will declare it working and the rest of them will sit in darkness applauding.
50 shades of whey….
It was only this morning that I remembered Trump is a candidate, too. A snapshot of the GOP debate stage is in my head, and he's not included. I don't blame him for skipping, but now I know what the field is like without him in it. Frankly, it was a relief.
Vivek vs RFJ Jr. A real Run for the Roses.
By the way, the question about whether Pence was right on Jan 6 was just awful on the part of Fox. The whole issue is we don’t know what happened that day nor the days leading up to it. A lot of the facts are unknown to the public and/or purposefully being hidden. Why? So anyone saying Pence was right is admitting they’re on team sweep-it-under-the-rug and is not interested in public accountability. That’s very bad from a projecting leadership perspective.
"Is this a debate about real things or a likeability contest?"
Aren't debates between political rivals always really just likability contests? How often are they ever about real things?
I think the ChatGpt insult is a good one. Like Ramaswamy, the only thing ChatGPT is good for is using language lazily and churning out political cliches (and crazy nonsense).
Republicans please don't vote for another crazy idiot! At least DeSantis is normal...
Serious Question:
In his LIFE WHAT has Chris Christie Ever accomplished? i mean other than toll bridge scandals?
8/24/23, 7:06 AM
He closed the beaches on July 4th, so he and his family could enjoy them alone, and in peace....https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/n-jersey-gov-chris-christie-kicks-sand-after-being-spotted-n779256
AND he hugged close, his buddy Obama when Superstorm Sandy came through, and many of us couldn't vote him out (which was just as well, as we would have been stuck with Romney)
Bonus question - will it matter?
https://issuesinsights.com/2023/08/23/what-is-a-coup-du-publique-youre-in-one-right-now/
Mike, Asa and Tim need to go away ASAP.
How dare the NYTimes try to tell us what we should look for in a conservative candidate.
Isn't that what I read here prior to the debate?
How dare the NYTimes try to tell us what we should look for in a conservative candidate.
Isn't that what I read here prior to the debate?
Rama's performance put me in mind of the song by The Eagles, "New Kid in Town".
Note to Rama: If conservatives start babbling about giving Taiwan away, they'll start a war in the way Acheson's comments about the US security perimeter are (perhaps unfairly) said to have precipitated the Korean War.
"He speaks and writes in short, coherent, direct sentences."
"My god he must be some sort of Nazi !!!"
Ramaswamy is going to defund the FBI and get to the bottom of what happened on 9/11, give the "Russian speaking" half of the Ukraine to Russia and put us on the gold standard. This man is brilliant.
FIFY, Spiros.
According to CNN: "Vivek skirts close to being a 9/11 truther, and is okay with Putin keeping what he's seized, and is also fine with China invading Taiwan."
(None of this is true. 🤫)
"In his life what has Chris Christie Ever accomplished?"
Good question for everyone on that stage. I count two or three who have done something useful.
Charles Blow says Vivek “is no Barack Obama”. And how right he is unintentionally. Ramaswamy is not only more articulate than Barack whose ponderous pauses meant to convey profundity only highlighted his shallow thinking, but way more intelligent. The press and his opponents recognize his strength and appeal and have turned their fire from DeSantis to Vivek. See todays NYP for proof of this thesis.
Ann, you must not spend too much time on Chat GPT. In my experience asking it for legal analysis, it spits out something that sounds good but is completely incoherent, or simply false, when you drill down into it. So Christie made a good analogy.
Bill R said...
couldn't he settle for a couple of years as a Congressman while he learns the ropes?
learns the ropes?
You mean:
know what side of his bread is buttered?
learn to take orders?
see that doing what the GOPe and Democrats Want, is The Only Way to get invited to THE RIGHT PARTIES?
Could you please point to someone that spent a couple of years in DC and became a BETTER person?
ANYONE? Any One, at All???
The type of person who reads the New York Times for information for information about Republican candidates will only be voting in open GOP primaries.
As for me, I share Bill R’s reservations about people whose first political job is President of the United States. Doubly so since I lived in or in a suburb of Washington, DC, from 1969 until 2016. I don’t think normal people could begin to grasp what a filthy environment it really is.
Saying the same five things about how special you are isn't communicating.
Dave Begley: what do you have to say about the fact that Ramaswamy hasn't kept even minor promises yet and has doctored his resume to conceal things he could have easily been "articulate" about?
He criticized other people for having superpacs and talks about it constantly. Now he has a giant one. Will he refuse those funds, demand transparency for donors, or just keep accusing other people of doing exactly what he's doing? Will he acknowledge his efforts to conceal parts of his resume and misrepresented other parts (his parents didn't have "no money": he grew up very well-off with money to burn.
Words are pretty. Facts matter. I love his words. I'll vote for him if he's the candidate -- unless he keeps 'truthering' it. But he is speaking down to the base. Already. That's extremely suspicious. And do you really believe he doesn't have campaign consultants? This is a silly claim.
He's dissembling. A lot.
I love that the Old Guard guys and gal up there tore into Ramaswamy. He's so far past them in many ways. Their dismissal of him as a rookie or as someone who knows nothing about foreign policy is the thinking that has gotten us with Permanent Washington. You don't need to be an expert in foreign policy to be President.
Was George W. Bush? (oops, sorry about that unending war)
Was Obama? (oops, sorry about handing the Middle East back over to Russia, overseeing the demise of Syria, growing ISIS, penalizing our allies and sending gifts to our enemies).
Was Trump? (actually- his foreign policy was better than any of the previous 5 or 6 Presidents, and he came in with 'no' experience.
Biden? (hahahahahahahahahahahaha- his foreign policy comes down to who pays).
And frankly the track record of 'the experts' is awful. Just plain awful over the last few decades. And...Ramaswamy is not a rookie in life. He's just not a careerist in Washington. He's done what the others (Burgun aside) have done. Risked his own money to start businesses, worked his ass off and employed people. Produced. He's brilliant, and a quick read. He'll learn what he must- quickly.
I've been wandering somewhere between Gov. DeSantis and Vivek. I'm strongly leaning toward DeSantis, because I just think he can step in Day One with a working agenda. Vivek will have a learning curve. But...those who pooh-pooh Vivek are going to be suprised.
Insults and derogatory characterizations from the likes of Christie and Pence are in fact ringing endorsements of Ramaswamy to normals. The more they strike at him, the more powerful he becomes.
Tina Trent:
Open up your mind, brain and head to Vivek.
"Most surprising part of the debate was seeing what a prick Mike Pence is. He’s such an entitled jerk - "
Pence worked under the master for four years...no doubt he picked up some masterful prick- and jerk-moves during those years.
(I didn't watch so I can only take your word for his being a prick and a jerk. The only things I know about him is that he is from my home state and that he had the integrity not to bend to Trump's pressure on him to invalidate the election votes. That doesn't make him President-caliber, but it shows he is ethical to some degree.)
…is okay with Putin keeping what he's seized
Obama was okay with Putin keeping what he seized and the same with Bush before that. And Biden was okay with “a minor incursion” into Ukraine, which is why he allowed Putin to take a third chunk of territory. Trump is the only President who stood up to Putin and armed Ukraine when it mattered. One of Biden’s first acts as POTUS was to cancel arms shipments to Ukraine and he has slow-walked every “assistance” since then.
Given that history I have no idea what Biden’s actual goal is for Ukraine other than the obvious one of prolonging the war and blocking accountability. Based on these facts I would prefer a negotiated settlement ASAP and Ramaswamy’s opening bid is a good place to start the discussion. Why do you want an endless war with no game plan? How is that in our national interest? I don’t trust the motherfuckers prosecuting the war at all. It’s no different than Afghanistan or Iraq in that regard: No clearly articulated plan that includes a definition of winning.
"The NYT headline is 'Ramaswamy Seizes Spotlight as DeSantis Hangs Back.'"
A Republican seizes! Were there any Republicans pouncing?
Vivek is a flash in the pan. MAGA likes him, but will vote Trump
Vivek doesn't need to win this cycle. Trump only has one more cycle in him (win or lose). If Vivek is MAGA enough he can take up the mantle in 2028.
The others need to win.
Rich said...
I wonder if we fed all of Rich's comments and Chuck's comments into ChatGPT if it would come back that they are the same author.
Oddly similar style.
Mike said, " I have no idea what Biden’s actual goal is for Ukraine......"
As much graft for as many donors as he can.
Again. For all of you Ukrain fanbois. Why are we sending our treasure to Ukraine?
We were in Afghanistan for 20 + years and spent 73 billion. We aren't even in the war in Ukrain and we've spent 80 billion. So far.
And frankly the track record of 'the experts' is awful. Just plain awful over the last few decades.
Agreed.
The Billboard #1 song right now is about how the "Rich Men North of Richmond" are screwing everyone and they think calling out Vivek as not being experienced enough among the men of Richmond is somehow a slam?
The other candidates aren't reading the room. Trump is, which is why he's in the lead. People (of both parties) feel screwed over. This election isn't going to be about who promises to send more money to Israel or who will fight Putin harder, or what week ban there should be on abortions. Those are political consultant talking points. There's a sense in the country of the elite driving the car off a cliff with the plebes stuck in the trunk.
It's why I think the "election denier" attack is so stupid. Trump claiming the election was stolen gives an explanation as to why things suck and how it is not the voters fault (even if they voted for Biden). It's a winning argument. It will build up speed. The Trump court cases will only heighten the narrative that something wasn't right about the 2020 election. And it gives an out for the populace.
Note I'm not taking a position on if the 2020 election was stolen. Biden is President like it or not. Congress affirmed the vote totals and Biden took the oath. Done.
And Biden was okay with “a minor incursion” into Ukraine, which is why he allowed Putin to take a third chunk of territory.
Biden was going to whisk Zelensky out of the country in the first few hours until Zelenksy decided to fight back (and likely blackmailed Biden into sending all that money we've been sending). It appears that the Ukraine has been a money laundering operation for politicians.
I have heard Vivek speak at a little length on Taiwan. He says the US needs to defend Taiwan now because they are our source of advanced chips. He says we need to build out our own chip manufacturing industry so that we are not in such a vulnerable position. I agree 100%.
On Ukraine, I am less familiar with his position but I think it's for a negotiated settlement. Yes, this would give Russia more than they deserve, but IMO is better than continued war with a nuclear power which is draining our military resources. I am sick of being the world's policeman.
On this claim that he would abandon Israel I am least familiar, but I noted last night he called it a lie. I'll believe him until I am shown facts to the contrary.
Biden was going to whisk Zelensky out of the country in the first few hours until Zelenksy decided to fight back (and likely blackmailed Biden into sending all that money we've been sending). It appears that the Ukraine has been a money laundering operation for politicians.
I don't think that it was blackmail, I think that it's pressure from the Eastern Europeans. Biden's incompetence turned a regional border dispute into a test of legitimacy for NATO. Every argument against supporting Ukraine- "it's none of our concern," "we can't afford to continue to fight," "we risk a nuclear war with Russia," etc.- can apply equally to Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, and even Poland. If we aren't willing to provide arms and equipment to Ukraine, who have so far managed to successfully hold off the Russian Army, then there's no way we're going to commit US troops to fight and die to protect the territorial integrity of Lithuania, or the independence of Estonia. So now the Biden admin is in the same position as the Obama admin was with regards to Afghanistan: they don't want to be there, but don't want the blame for pulling out, so instead of any long-term or serious commitment, they engage in a series of half-measures and slow-walking of support, which arguably leads to the worst possible outcomes.
Chuck said...
"I now know how to refer to the chatty candidate. It's 'Viv-ache'. I needed a Tylenol PM after that much of him."
I now know how to refer to an annoying post. It's an 'Upchuck'. I need a beer after reading it.
Rich said...
"Ramaswamy speaks the gibberish which is required in MAGA world. I've never heard such canned nonsense."
You weren't around for the Obama era I take it.
Hunter Biden's tax payer funded Hooker said...
Rehajm - Pence was Trump's pick for VP. Pence was not a DC insider prior to his becoming Trump's VP. Pence is hardly a DC insider. Pence was a governor.
OMG I stand corrected. I feel so much better about him. So. Much. Better….
Remember in the movie, The Paper Chase, how James Naughton was the guy who thought that he would sail through Harvard because he had a photographic memory? That is what AI is. The unlimited ability to store facts and recall them, but limited creativity.
Temujin - thank you!
“Serious Question: In his LIFE WHAT has Chris Christie Ever accomplished? i mean other than toll bridge scandals?”
The Rotund Rocker has attended 937 Brucie Springsteen shows!
Vivek's not my first choice, but he's got my attention. I finally found a summary of his "America First 2.0" plan, which lays out his proposed policy vision (https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2023/04/14/exclsuive-ramaswamy-25-policy-visions/) and it is mind-blowing. It makes Trump sound like a RINO by comparison. If anything and anybody can blow up the Uniparty gerontocracy, this guy perhaps can. He's got the brains and the youthful energy to do it.
Dave Begley writes:
"Tina Trent:
Open up your mind, brain and head to Vivek."
Uh, no thanks. That's a little New Agey for me. I am paying attention to Ramaswamy, his background, and his donors, as I do with any candidate. I'm not moved by his rhetoric: I am listening to his language. He has already made worrying assertions. One is his claim that he is running his campaign differently from any other candidate. He brushed off Jordan Peterson's question about why he made the debate pledge (to support any candidate who wins). He mumbled something vague about needing to do it at this point. The impression, clearly, was that he was just being strategic but didn't really mean it. Not a good start.
I understand having contempt for political consultants. Heck, I've been a political consultant, and I hated myself the whole time, even though I loved my candidate. But to say he is not using consultants, doesn't need them, is flying solo: that's all nonsense. He may call his political consultants something else, but he has them. I don't want to see his MENSA card or rock collection either.
He has continued criticizing other people's superpacs but has not rejected help or set transparency conditions for his first superpac. You have to pick one. Either stop complaining about other people or tell your superpac to disclose its donors and special interests -- or refuse their help.
He seems to be talking down to Trump supporters while trying to woo them. He has a really weird set of ideas about who they are, or maybe who he is. So he randomly mumbles about 9/11 and other fringy things. It's almost as if he is reading the NYT in order to figure out conservatives. Then he blurts out something really stupid about how he's the first person to notice the leftist march through the institutions, or that older conservatives are "lazy" and need to move aside. Yes, he said that to Peterson, and I do believe he means that, because no apparently sane and reasonably intelligent person would make up such a self-destructive lie. Saying that was incredibly ignorant and hubristic, not to mention just a really dumb thing to say if you want someone's vote. It makes me question his baseline political competence. Older conservatives do the work in this movement and always have.
Hubris in a presidential candidate is to be expected, but this guy is off the map, and it's causing unforced errors. Surely he knew better than repeat Obama's condescending 'Aw shucks, I bet a lot of you are surprised to see this brown guy with a funny name on the stage' shtick. Hey, buddy, even here in the sticks, we have seen brown people before. I don't need the diversity lesson: save it for someone who will appreciate it, like David French.
I listened to the Peterson podcast twice. I think Peterson was polite but clearly worried about this guy's raging ego. He asked him, delicately, how he controls his pride, and the question went right over Ramaswamy's head. I found that whole interview troubling, when I expected it to be inspiring.
As I said, none of these are deal-breakers for me. I respect you, Dave, and your enthusiasm made me curious. But my instincts are telling me to proceed with caution.
Thank you for the cogent analysis Tina. I’ve grown to distrust and sometimes despise the GOP insiders, as a return of how they feel about me and everyone who voted for Trump in ‘16 and ‘20. But that also may have made me vulnerable to putting too much weight on a candidate’s outsider status. I’m going to consider your warning and be wary of letting my feelings color my evaluation of these candidates. Desantis Ramaswamy Scott and Burgum still have a shot with me. The others made disqualifying statements last night.
What’s with these far-lefties? They come to this blog to educate but somehow always self-flagellate.
"On this claim that he would abandon Israel I am least familiar, but I noted last night he called it a lie. I'll believe him until I am shown facts to the contrary" -- @Original Mike
I'm not sure on Vivek's specifics, either. I've seen an article (in The Tablet, I think) that argues from Israel's perspective that they need to break free of US aid. It was fascinating. Our money comes with conditions. Israel must buy our military hardware and develop none of their own, iirc. We are stifling their innovation. If Vivek is following this line, I want to hear more.
@Kate - Vivek did make some comment about fostering their independence that I didn't understand (and couldn't be elaborated on; this debate format sucks). I went to the transcript to see what it was:
……………………………
Vivek Ramaswamy (01:34:18):
You know what? The foreign policy experience that you have shows in the pointless wars we’ve gotten into. I have to address that. Our relationship with Israel will never be stronger than by the end of my first term. But it’s not client relationship. It’s a friendship. You know what friends do? Friends help each other stand on their own two feet. I will lead Abraham Accords 2.0. I will partner with Israel to make sure Iran never is nuclear armed. But you know what I love about Israel? I’ve been there probably in the last 10 years more than most people on this stage. You know what I love about them? I love their border policies. I love their tough on crime policies. I love that they have a national identity and an iron dome to protect their homeland. So yes, I want to learn from the friends that we’re supporting and what puzzles me-
Nikki Haley (01:34:51):
No, you want to cut them out of NATO.
………………………………
So, I don't know what to make of that. I need to learn more.
And I've never heard about Israel joining NATO. Is that a thing?
"Israel must buy our military hardware and develop none of their own." That will come as a surprise to the IDF and the many militaries around the world who pay top dollar for Israeli
weaponry.
The one thing I do like about Vivek's Indian background is that he may be able to escape the spell that the so-called Holy Land casts over American politics. That's also his greatest vulnerability--Republicans especially are supposed to show public support for Israel even though the vast majority of American Jews will never vote for them.
Yes, I believe Israeli arms have a good reputation.
I don't look at Israel in terms of politics and certainly not in terms of religion (Holy Land, whatever). I see an ally in a dangerous part of the world. We don't have many of those.
It was hardly the line of the night.
A good contender for that honour is Nikki Haley’s to VR, paraphrase, “You have no foreign policy experience and it shows.”.
The Chat GPT comparison needs your strained view of it to sound positive.
Chat GPT makes up stuff, uses absurd gender neutral pronouns, and provides prose so mannered and overstated as to be comparable to bureaucratese.
Most of us I’d say immediately understood the comparison for what it was, an utter put down of canned positions, robotically expressed with no trace of human warmth.
And that smile, the expression for it is “shit eating”.
Found the article, if anyone comes back to these comments to take a look.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/end-american-aid-israel
It's long, but here's a sample.
"As the price of its dependency, Israel is now being forced to downgrade its own defense industries. Whereas the previous MOU contained a special provision for Off-Shore Procurement (OSP) that allowed Israel to spend around 26% of the aid it received on domestic products, the new terms require that all aid received from Washington be spent inside the U.S.”
Thanks Kate. So apparently, instead of Vivek abandoning Israel he is actually in favor of removing constraints we have recently imposed on them?
It's so hard to be well informed on politics. Claims by partisans often turn out to be 180 degrees from reality.
I wonder what % of total Israeli defense spending is from US aid? A robust Israeli defense industry is in both our interests.
If we give Israel US bucks for their arsenal, asking that it be spent in the US doesn't seem that unreasonable. They should buy from Sweden?
"If we give Israel US bucks for their arsenal, asking that it be spent in the US doesn't seem that unreasonable. They should buy from Sweden?"
My point is that this is not tantamount to abandoning Israel, as Vivek detractors have claimed.
And this certainly puts US aid to Israel in a whole new light (at least for me):
"That’s because nearly all military aid to Israel—other than loan guarantees, which cost Washington nothing, the U.S. gives Israel no other kind of aid—consists of credits that go directly from the Pentagon to U.S. weapons manufacturers."
OM, I think we are agreeing re: "abandoning" Israel.
And I'm pretty sure that our aid to the Ukes mostly goes directly to Raytheon, Lockheed, and buddies. Still leaves plenty to be skimmed, scammed, and backkicked in Ukraine.
"And I'm pretty sure that our aid to the Ukes mostly goes directly to Raytheon, Lockheed, and buddies. "
Hmmm. Probably so.
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