The woman... was found at the edge of a lagoon in Spanish Wells, a residential community in Hilton Head Island. She had left her home around 7 a.m. to walk her dogs, and relatives went looking for her when the dogs returned without her....
You may think your dog will protect you from dangers when you're out on a walk, but Butfiloski implies that the dog attracts the attack — in this case, from an alligator.
Just a couple days ago we were talking about an incident in which a dog running into the forest attracted a bear attack. There, the human being survived, and we learned that the woman intervened in the bear/dog fight. She punched the bear and got bitten. I asked "if a bear were going after your dog, would you intervene?"
Who knows what happened in that Hilton Head incident, but if a 9-and-a-half-foot alligator were going after your dog, would you intervene?
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56 comments:
"Who knows what happened in that Hilton Head situation, but if an alligator were going after your dog, would you intervene?"
Sorry, Fido. Bon appetit, Alli.
My life has more value than a dog's, just as a stranger's life has more value than my dog's, so if I have to choose between saving my dog and a stranger...sorry, Fido.
I lived in Florida near the Everglades for 18 months growing up. Alligators were everywhere. At John Pennekamp National Park I snorkeled among them in the mangroves and in the everglades walked among hundreds of them on a trail at Shark Valley.
We have the same issue here in Florida.
When you step into the water (or even close to it) you are no longer on top of the food chain.
And for the salt water fans, there's a picture going around about a big shark at the beach in Pensacola!
https://www.foxweather.com/earth-space/florida-shark-video-july-4-2023
Gators can go from unseen to three or four feet up on shore with mouth agape in seconds. People who walk their dogs near a pond or other body of alligator-infested Florida waters only think that they’re engaged in a safe activity.
We stayed at Hilton Head a few years ago -- gators on golf courses and you would ride your rented bike on the cart paths just a few feet from them. People who live there have the rules wired in (a little like knowing the rules for living with bears in Colorado, but there are a lot more gators). The Nebraska couple that lost their 2 year old to the gator in Florida - nobody that lives there would ever make the mistake they did, but I sympathized. I had no idea about how common gators were until that trip.
Oops. The waters were in South Carolina, not Florida. My bad
I give the same answer for the alligator as I gave for the bear--if the dog is tied up, I would make an effort to free it. After that, it's on its own.
Well...all across Florida there are communities built with natural preserves and retention ponds. They are helpful in controlling the water flow from out tropical rains that come in the summer. Also for holding water for other uses (not human consumption) and for giving wildlife a place to congregate. We have amazing birds down here. And...gators.
In our county, they'll send out an animal control team to remove an alligator, but only once it gets to be 4 foot or longer. So we could see a 3'6" gator in a pond in my community as I'm walking my 20 lb terrier. And believe me- I keep a watch over the pond, through the reeds. I think over the years one develops 'gator eyes' so you know what to look for as you walk by a pond.
But...I read about these things happening once or twice yearly. Usually an older woman (though 69 to me is not old), and usually with a smaller dog. Yes, the dog is the attraction, but the person has to be aware when walking by any still body of water in the south. It's sad. And certainly not the way one envisions their end. Just awful.
If the dogs got away, she stepped in to protect them. I walk by the ponds ready to run at a moment's notice- with the dog. But it's never happened. We do have a small (24"?) gator living in one of the ponds currently. When I lived in cities- Detroit, Cleveland, Chicago and others, I learned to walk around the streets with a radar about me, being aware of my area and people. Down here I have a gator radar. Anyplace you are, you need to be aware of your surroundings. Nature doesn't give you a priority and nature doesn't care about 'equity'.
I didn't read the NYT article becaus of paywall. Did it mention that there are something like 1200 gators on Hilton Head (which comprises about 70 square miles). Imagine if about 16 gators lived in your 1x1 mile neighborhood?
A .357 magnum would intervene if it was me.
"You may think your dog will protect you from dangers when you're out on a walk, but Butfiloski implies that the dog attracts the attack — in this case, from an alligator."
Your dog might protect from dog- or even human-sized danger. But to the much bigger animals, you are both prey. And the dog is the smaller, weaker, more tempting target.
"Alligator Kills 69-Year-Old Woman in South Carolina/The deadly attack in Hilton Head Island was the second fatal alligator attack in Beaufort County, S.C., in less than a year..."
As a non-Southerner, I did not realize that gators were as far north as SC. But "According to the South Carolina Department of Natural Resources, there are an estimated 100,000 alligators living in the state. All of these gators live in the state's coastal, lowland, and eastern half."
if a 9-and-a-half-foot alligator were going after your dog, would you intervene?.
Hell no. I like my dog but I'm not willing to die for him.
Due to the fact I pack a gun while hiking... if a bear goes after my dog... well to bad for the bear.
I'm headed to Hilton Head on Saturday. Our rental place is on a tidal creek whereas we have always previously stayed on a freshwater lagoon packed with gators. None bigger than 6 or 7 feet, but I know people see much larger ones. My dog will not be going on the trip.
"if a 9-and-a-half-foot alligator were going after your dog, would you intervene?" Not if you had any common sense.
Another reason to carry.
On land, I imagine I would intervene. But not in the water.
Depends on how good a retriever the dog is.
I say this at the risk of being juvenile and I mean no disrespect to the guy, but "Butfiloski" is a funny name!
Yes, the alligators generally do not recognize humans as a food source unless humans have been feeding them. They definitely want to eat your dog. The two fatalities in Beaufort County are on with the dig and one where the evidence strongly suggests the woman fell in the water. You can’t get in the water with them, either.
We’ve led a peaceful coexistence with the 12ft alligator what lives in the lagoon 50yds from my house. He and sometimes a girlfriend get to sun themselves on the edge of the lagoon and they hop in to the water if I approach them.
And for the salt water fans, there's a picture going around about a big shark at the beach in Pensacola!
Occasionally we see alligators swimming in the salt water tidal estuaries. They travel to search for new territory if they lose to competition. I can’t believe Hollywood hasn’t worn out the shark vs alligator concept…
rehajm, I also hop in the water when you approach.
"You may think your dog will protect you from dangers when you're out on a walk"
My imposing German Shepherd and I were walking a little trail through a pretty dense stand of timber. I could hear a chainsaw, but didn't see anything in the way of a source of the noise. With no warning at all, about a 1' diameter tree fell directly across the path 10' ahead of us. I turned to head back the other way - and saw my dog 50' away, running top speed and not looking back at all. I knew then that when we were in the woods I couldn't expect much support from him.
My neighbors in NV squeal about how they would never want to live where I do in SC because of all the alligators in my neighborhood there. My neighbors in SC squeal about how they would never want to live where I do in NV because of all the bears and mountain lions in my neighborhood there.
I don't really get it with the alligators. Why don't they just kill them on sight? That's what you would do if they were, say, cottonmouths.
Another aspect of these attacks being overlooked is the victim's gait. Gators watch animals' and our walking gait and carriage as a marker of weakness and inability to run and evade. Older folks with bad knees and hips who sway as they saunter around the water's edge with a little animal attract the wrong kind of attention.
Life is more genteel without animals. Own no dogs. Own no cats. What the hell are you thinking?
If an alligator of even modest size strikes your pet there won't be time to do anything. They look so placid and slow lying there but they move like a rattlesnake when they hit.
I hear the alligators in the Everglades are being 'challenged' by imported crocodiles. I wonder what will happen if they start showing up on golf courses.
It's my responsibility to protect my dogs until it's their responsibility to protect me. We have different skill sets. They're pretty smart around the occasional snake, and if they hear gunfire nearby, they head home.
But if anyone ever broke into my house, they would be making a very big mistake. I'm more worried about people than animals. It's the highest achievement of a dog to die protecting their owners. It doesn't mean I love them any less.
Officers Down website records K-9s who die in the line of duty, and you can donate there to support training and retirement for K-9 Cops.
bon appétit!
Research says bear spray is more effective than a gun against a charging bear. But good luck to all. And confidence is valuable even if in the end it’s misplaced.
Research says bear spray is more effective than a gun against a charging bear
Yah I’ve seen the videos that claim definitive proof bear spray works. A closer look shows a mother Brown making a false charge, a Griz charging a hiker until it reaches a fence row…stuff suggesting spray was incidental. I asked a member of a Yellowstone elite police unit regarding the effectiveness of bear spray. After a long pause of thought he gave an answer that was uncomfortably…nuanced. The backcountry guides I’ve met who take clients into Griz territory carry rifles or a ham hock- 10mm or something more exotic. I know a guide who killed a Grizzly in Montana. He says you don’t want to be the guy who killed the Grizzly in Montana. Leads me to believe effectiveness of spray or a firearm is quite uncertain…
Again, I would not tackle the gator to save the dog. A gator, I might try to distract long enough for the dog to escape, but no mano on gator action for me, not without a significantly sized knife at a minimum.
Temujin said...
rehajm, I also hop in the water when you approach
Yah, I get that a lot…
I was stationed in Florida and have seen alligators out in the wild where there was absolutely no control or expectation of safety like one would have at a zoo or even on a golf course (surrounded by "civilization" in other words). If an alligator of any size were going after one of my children, no question, I'm reacting without thought. But the dogs? Hell, I don't even like the pug, Stanley, that much. If it were Rupert, our aussie shephard...well, it would be situational. Do I have a weapon? Do I have any advantage at all? If it's completely hand-to-claw, I'm not sure I'd have the stones to jump in the middle. Mainly because I would, most likely correctly, do a quick cost/benefit analysis and decide nothing is worth potentially dying for in that situation.
I went into the Savannah River when one of our dogs jumped in and was swept away, in what was supposed to be an area where alligators were routinely spotted, but I didn't see any and wasn't even thinking of that (we'd just moved to the area). I was just thinking about beating the current and pulling the dog back to shore. AFTER that someone mentioned the gators.
I knew then that when we were in the woods I couldn't expect much support from him.
I was pleasantly surprised just last weekend when our 50lbs aussie shephard put himself between my wife and a coyote that, while looking a bit leaner, was every bit as long/tall and was acting aggressively toward them. We don't get many in this area and they usually avoid anything remotely human-related. When my wife yelled for me, the first think I thought was rabies and ran toward them. Faced with our dog and another adult human moving quickly toward it, the coyote decided we weren't worth it and took off.
Jupiter, thank you. I don't get the willingness to live with alligators. Maybe that began when they were considered endangered to one degree or another but that's hardly the case now.
Yesterday Glenn Reynolds posted twice about bear encounters, both at home and when walking your dog.
First: "If you shoot bears who come around people, they’ll stop. That’s how we did it before. And by 'before,' I mean, 'before society went insane.'"
Second: "They’re threats to be managed, with no special moral standing of their own, and the best way to teach them to avoid humans is to shoot them when they don’t."
Applies equally to alligators or any larger, non-human predator in human habitats.
Blogger Ann Althouse said...
Research says bear spray is more effective than a gun against a charging bear. But good luck to all. And confidence is valuable even if in the end it’s misplaced.
OK, bear spray and a .357 magnum. My daughter has 5 acres in the Idaho panhandle which is bear country. I was going to give her a .44 magnum b ut wasn't sure she could handle it.
I worry a lot more about brown recluses and ticks.
At least it goes over fast with a large predator, and they generally don't get in your sheets.
I like that the dogs returned to the house. Good Boy/Good Girl.
We've been going to HHI at least once/year for about the last 15 years or so, but tend to now go out of season, say in Oct or sometimes Feb, when it is a great time to walk on the beach and the local CoC has its Restaurant Week. Not crowded at all. But when we do go during the warm months i have always avoided getting close to any freshwater ponds because the gators are everywhere. A few years ago I managed to get us a week at a friend's condo right before Memorial Day, about a block off the beach. As we walked down to the public beach ramp to get in an evening walk for the first time we had to cross a culvert over a channel between two ponds. My wife saw something in the water and I took a look and it was the eyes a gator poking up to take a look, maybe 6-7 ft long, but he ignored us.
"...a 9-and-a-half foot alligator..."
A modified form of the Stonehenge scene from Spinal Tap just popped into my head.
My parents went to yellowstone and saw the MAKE SURE YOU HAVE YOUR BEAR SPRAY signs, thought it was a jokey thing, and then saw a second sign and thought there might be something to this afterall, went back to the station and bought bear spray.
Ended up with a bear coming across a bridge with a bear on it headed there way, and dad used the bear spray, bear left the bear spray infected area without acknowling my parents or mauling them to death.
Dad said whether or not it was the key factor, best purchase of his life.
Paul,
Hope you carry a really big gun
Would I intervene? No, the gator started it, it is his problem what my dog does to him.
Ann Althouse said...
"Research says bear spray is more effective than a gun against a charging bear. But good luck to all. And confidence is valuable even if in the end it’s misplaced."
Some research says yes, some says no. But the key factor is SKILL. If you can shoot then then you will find a gun works better.. if you can't shoot, bear spray works better.
Happily for 54 years of my life I've shot guns (68 years old.) Very familiar with them and thus I pack a gun. But my wife, who has shot very very little, I think she is better off with bear spray.
If a bear were going after my dog, I would of course intervene. Of course, here in Tennessee, it would be a black bear, and I expect 8 or 10 9mm pistol rounds would be sufficient. If I lived in the Rockies, and it was a Brown or Grizzly Bear, I would most certainly NOT intervene unless I had a high-powered rifle or pistol, and I do not mean any 5.56 "assault rifle" either.
An alligator can be excused for thinking a chihuahua is an appetizer.
Research says bear spray is more effective than a gun against a charging bear.
I do not think this was a randomized controlled trial.
“But good luck to all.”
Even the bear? You are cruelly neutral.
How many Twisted Teas could a 9 foot gator open?
Gators look kinda tough. I’m guessing .45 over 9mm?
Research says bear spray is more effective than a gun against a charging bear. But good luck to all. And confidence is valuable even if in the end it’s misplaced.
Bear spray is totally ineffective if the bear is charging and the wind is in your face -- most of the spray will also be in your face.
Political junkie, well, in all fairness, only Rocco would tear an invader's throat out after being shot in the head. He's all blue heeler. They don't register pain like other dogs do.
Giles, his twin by another (terrier) father after mom had a night out on the estrus town, runs home for mosquito bites, psychological quandaries, fear of turtles, and loves bossa nova.
I don't know how I recognized their differences at six weeks when I named them. But it was true. Nature? Nurture? Above my pay grade.
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