Said Gabriella Papadakis, a female ice dancer who wants to be able to skate with another woman, quoted in "The Once Unthinkable Revolution Coming to Figure Skating Is the sport ready? Some of its biggest stars think so" (Slate).
My first reaction to this was that women will lose out, because males will physically dominate. But that might not be true, considering the supply and demand problem in ice dancing:
“It does create a big gender imbalance in power dynamics,” Papadakis said. “Because men have all the choices, and girls, if they want to achieve some sort of high level, they have to be better than, like, a thousand other girls. It’s definitely a pressure that I think is unhealthy.”
With the possibility for same-gender athletes to partner together, there’s the hope that some of the expectations placed on young women can shift. A taller, more muscular girl, instead of being ostracized, could perform the lifting role, using the skills her body naturally gives her....
The males, with their pick of this oversupply of females, will systematically choose those who look most conventionally feminine. The "taller, more muscular girl" has little chance to participate at all. Why exclude her from pairing up with one of the other females? What's so important about ice dancers looking like a couple in a 1940s movie? Obviously, there's also the question why any sort of dancing is an Olympic sport. Will it make even less sense if they abandon the conventional gender roles?
One thing that might tip your preference here is the force that generally keeps us going: The Russians. We're told that Russia "criminalizes the promotion of same-sex relationships or the implication that they’re 'normal,'" and they're not going to like this change. Don't you want to antagonize them? It's who we are. No?
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"...and girls, if they want to achieve some sort of high level, they have to be better than, like, a thousand other girls."
Two thousand other girls. The other thousand are guys pretending to be girls. Sorry Susy. Sorry Svetlana. Schwab has spoken.
The Cutting Edge (1992) the woman is the bitch and the man accommodates her, the traditional marriage arrangement. With two women people lose interest - it's just a cat fight rather than a significant achievement.
When I was in high school many, mnay years ago girls would dance with each other and it was totally acceptable. It was a supply and demand thing then as it is now.
Girls have been dancing with other girls for a long time. It's only the current era that insists on assigning romance to every instance two women move together.
Blades Of Glory come to life.
I always thought a beautiful dance between a man and a woman — on the ice or ballet stage— incarnates the truth about human sexuality, that “man and woman He made them.” Their complementarity — the different strengths and gifts each brings to the dance— is what makes them “equal” . His role is to support her graceful movements and flourishes. With his natural upper body strength he lifts her. We see how they are made for one another. Together, they reach something transcendent that neither could attain on their own. a beautiful enactment of a timeless metaphor…so sure, let’s destroy it, cuz that’s what we do now.
I refer the commentariat to Blades of Glory, a ridiculous (?) guilty pleasure of mine, in which two male singles skaters (Will Farrell and the dude from Napoleon Dynamite), both barred for life from competing in that division for fighting, realize that the couples division rules do not prohibit two men skating together. Furthermore, they (or rather, their very lightly played gay coach) realize that because they're both men, that can achieve feats of athleticism a traditional couple can't.
I can't hear Aerosmith's I Don't Want To Miss A Thing without cracking up because of this movie.
I don't see a downside. As in gymnastics, men have areas where they excel over women (power routines) and women have areas where they excel over men (lithe flexibility routines). A trans man trying to adopt the woman's role will look as ridiculous as that mediocre dancer recently accepted into the Royal Academy. If the trans person has to be chosen, no one will choose him.
Few women will be able to perform the male role, but with such a shortage of men, no one is harmed by letting them try. And to the extent that they succeed, they will be helping to reduce the barrier caused by the imbalance in gender participation.
Are they not even considering the possibility that, if same-sex partners become possible in ice dancing competitions boys may just start to skate with other boys, and the girls will still be left to fend for themselves looking for girls who are big enough to lift them, etc.?
People gravitate to gender-typical roles and activities, and can't be forced to change their preferences. This move stands to split the sport into ever smaller factions with limited sustainable appeal. Review the audience for male golf (PGA) versus female golf (LPGA). The LPGA once was nicknamed the Lesbian PGA because many fans and athletes were in fact lesbians. The popularity of women's basketball, soccer, etc. pales in comparison to the male forms (as fans want to see the world's strongest and most competitive athletes).
Music genres are deeply divided by sex, with males avoiding "girl pop" and females avoiding most hard rock or heavy metal. In the 1980s "alternative rock" was roughly split between male and female performers, but by the 1990s it became overwhelmingly male and dominated by loud electric guitars. The females went off on their own and formed a different subgenre dominated by vocals and acoustic guitars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Billboard_number-one_alternative_hits
There's no harm in same-sex pairings, but don't expect 'equity' or the like.
I already saw this movie. Will Ferrell was in it. Jenna Fischer looked great in lingerie.
Will people want to watch two women ice dancing together, or is this another good thing being ruined?
She can just dance with a transvestite! Still a 'woman' right?
This article isn't about transgender competitors. It's about letting 2 women or 2 men be ice dancing partners.
I think a transwoman would not be chosen by a male ice skater because the smallness of the female partner is to his advantage. This isn't like the problem of transwomen competing with other women in swimming, where the larger size and greater upper body strength is a big advantage. Having a large partner would require innovating in the style and expression. A male ice dancer who wants to compete in the traditional way is going to pick a petite female.
That said, ice dancing limits how high you can lift your partner (unlike pairs). Presumably a male could lift another male, and it might be impressively athletic. But it's ice dancing and the athleticism isn't supposed to be showing. It's supposed to be graceful and beautiful... or something artistic.
All of these girls could just be solo skaters too. They don't have to dance with men.
I'm actually not bothered by a female only pairs division, but the results would not resemble male/female skating at all. More like a girls dance routine. It could be really great.
I dream of a world where tall, muscular women can reach their full potential as figure skaters. A new day is coming.
Ice skating doesn't like the more muscular girls even when they compete individually. That was the issue with Tanya Harding. She out competed with more powerful moves, but the judges didn't like she wasn't "soft". Also, likely class discrimination.
Have the judges become less 1950s conventional?
I would think that it is sexist to think there needs to be "male" role in dancing. I bet that 2 females could produce and elegant routine using their specific skills. If one is more muscular, they could do the more challenging jumps while the other does the more graceful portions, no need to do lifting. People watch ice skating for the girls anyway. If they make it about sexuality, hey will ruin it.
The male/female thing comes because of the relationship to ballroom dancing, no? Because there are plenty of dances that are male/male (Gene Kelly & Fred Astaire!) and female/female.
As Kate said, there doesn't have to be romance implied. We don't think of synchronized swimming as polyamory.
Sure, why not? But regardless of the attempted permutations of this idea that are attempted, they have the same likelihood of athletic, artistic, and commercial success as the WNBA.
And why does it have to be on ice? The power dynamics are tilted against those who can't skate.
Wa St Blogger says, "People watch ice skating for the girls anyway." Normal guys, anyway.
"if they make it about sexuality, hey will ruin it." Not for me, hey won't.
“We're told that Russia "criminalizes the promotion of same-sex relationships or the implication that they’re 'normal,'" and they're not going to like this change. Don't you want to antagonize them? It's who we are. No?”
Of course. Further antagonizing a murderous wacko with thousands of nuclear weapons is absolutely what America should, and probably will, do. It’s definitely who we are these days, and what could poss....
I think this sport has less of the 'throwing one skater around' moves.
If you do get to throw a skater around, the ladies will not be able to compete.
If two men skated together, they could clean up.
Two women on ice? Hot!!!
Well said, Caroline.
Finland Debuts The World's First Transgender National Figure Skater
https://youtu.be/ClTabsLBgdE
There is something so graceful about two lovely women dancing together. Ladies and gentlemen… I give you a fine example of a bevy of beauties dances to the relaxing strains of Dr.Feelgood “She Does It Right”…
https://youtu.be/iHm7uIC84YM
What is a woman?
See how that works?
Why not? It's judged rather than scored or timed. I competed for years in a variety of equestrian events, some pretty rough and wild. I don't remember any divided by gender. Totally different than putting males in women's teams, not to mention locker rooms, etc. I played briefly on a co-ed soccer team but there had to be four women on the field at all times. Solved the problem but in those days there was no discussion over who was a woman.
The pitfalls of genderfication to force social progress, and deprecate science in lieu of empathetic bullshit. Aside from the Progressive religious sects, liberal meandering and divergence, transgender political congruence ("="), and masculinism, feminism has been the leading class-disordered ideology to sabotage women's dignity, agency, social development, and viability. Take a knee, ladies, and gentlemen tumble after.
Obviously, we need affirmative action for males in ice dancing.
This isn't in the trans debate sphere to me. There is only one pair contest so I no problem with how pairs are made. I know when I watch Ice Dancing, the woman catches all my attention. Two might well be a bonus.
Australian Ballroom dancing instead of American skating but the great movie Strictly Ballroom covers dance competitions wonderfully.
THERE WILL BE NO NEW DAMCESTEPS!
I don't really question the idea of dancing in the Olympics. I question the whole idea of the Olympics.
Not the original concept but what it has become in the past 30-40 years.
I think it is especially harmful to kids. Not just dancing but all Olympic sports
John Henry
Go all the way to "Blades of Glory"
could someone please post a list of ALL the female figure skaters.. in the world,,
that can lift another women up into the air gracefully and often?? Shouldn't take long to type
I suppose this could work for ice dancing, but why don't they just compete in the synchronized skating category (yes, this exists) Then you can skate with lots of other girls!
Or, better yet, just skate solo. This smacks of more of the same old 'push the envelope' crap that will be the end of all that is good, beautiful, and true.
I don't know much about ice dancing, only that it is different than figure skating apparently. I did an image search for ice dancing lifting, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are in fact zero, taller more muscular girls, that are also interested in ice dancing, that can lift their partner in the way I've seen in the images. I don't think this means that the women shouldn't be able to dance with one another, but if these techniques aren't achievable by women-women pairs does that mean they will be at a disadvantage, does it mean they will alter the scoring rules to accommodate the women-women pairs?
Why artistic swimming (now open to men)? Why curling? Why breakdancing (now an Olympic sport)? The chunky girls can becomes shots putters and curlers.
As to the girl skaters left out of doubles, let's face it: that sport values and grades certain attributes, and whipping a 300 pound girl over your shoulder isn't going to meet them, the glorious Blades of Glory notwithstanding.
As to girls left out of couples skating, millions of male and female athletes don't make it to the Olympics, probably many more males than females worldwide. So why do you care only about a few dozen females left out of one sport?
And for that matter, do you actually believe all (or even most of) the males in couples skating are heterosexual? Again, see Blades of Glory.
Why make it your mission to pretend to destroy sex differences? I dunno what the obsession is here, but maybe we can make that an Olympic Sport. In the meantime, why not consider all the women who are barred from competing in sports at all (or even feeling the sun on their faces) by Islamic Dictators? That's what real feminists -- at least those not brainwashed by the multiculti activists -- used to do.
Well, damn.......Blades of Glory already mentioned 10+ times.
Just add two new categories: M/M, F/F.
'As in gymnastics, men have areas where they excel over women (power routines) and women have areas where they excel over men (lithe flexibility routines).'
I would bet that a skilled male could dominate women's gymnastics.
Women don't have a monopoly on balance or flexibility.
But men have a monopoly on strength and power...
I don’t see a problem with two women competing as a team. It certainly works for beach volleyball (does anyone actually watch the men’s version?) The trouble with ice dancing is that ice rinks are too cold for bikinis. Maybe they could switch to rollerblades?
When are we gonna get Olympic jello wrestling?
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