Said Judge Kyle Duncan, interviewed by Rod Dreher (at Substack).
Instead of explaining to the students that they should respect an invited guest at the law school (yes, a federal judge, but really this applies to any guest), even one they might disagree with passionately, she launched into a bizarre (and already printed out) monologue where she accused me of causing “hurt” and “division” in the law school community by my mere presence on campus. So, this had the effect of validating the mob. Then, at the same time, she pretended to “welcome” me to campus so that I could express my views. All of this was delivered, as anyone can see from the video, in the voice and idiom of a therapist.
He's criticizing her voice. He's tone policing!
I found it profoundly creepy.
He doesn't need protection from creepiness. If the tables were turned, and he were the lefty, wouldn't conservatives call him a "snowflake"?
It was the language of “compassion” and “feelings,” but it came across as deeply controlling and aggressive.
It "came across as".... You're calling for a person to lose her job. You, with your life tenure guarantee. Your subjective experience is worth hearing about, but it doesn't establish that she did something terribly wrong. She had a hard task to carry out, and you ought to try to understand how it felt, subjectively, to her.
Many people are talking about the weird metaphor she used: “Was the juice worth the squeeze?” I had no idea what she was talking about, but at some point I realized that she meant, “Yes, you were invited to campus, and we ‘welcome’ you. But your presence here is causing such hurt and division. So, was what you were going to talk about really worth all this pain you’re causing by coming here?” In other words, it’s just a folksy way of giving these students a heckler’s veto.
But it's not a heckler's veto, because she was clearing the way for you to speak. She was caring for the students' concerns and simultaneously helping you. She was engaging in an intellectual consideration of the issues of protest and the right to hear a speaker. Notice the question mark: "Was the juice worth the squeeze?" It's an important question, and she answered it in your favor while also supporting the students.
If they hate you enough, then surely it wasn’t worth your coming to campus. Apply that twisted idea to the civil rights movement, and see where you end up. It isn’t on the side of the people marching across the Selma bridge.
You reject their analogies, and I'm pretty sure they'll reject that one of yours.
In other words, what the dean was preaching is the exact opposite of the law of free speech. We protect the speaker from the mob, not the mob from the speaker.
Was there a threat of physical violence? No. Do we protect the speaker from the words of the "mob"? Duncan must know it's not "the exact opposite of the law of free speech." This wasn't a case of the speaker being punished for riling up the crowd. It was only a case of the crowd drowning out the speaker's speech with more speech.
And here was a dean of one of the best law schools in the world using the exact opposite of that basic principle to silence a sitting federal judge....
How was she silencing you? She was clearing the way for you, she just took longer to do it than you would have liked and she acknowledged the feelings and opinions of the protesters as she did it.
Duncan returns to the idea of a law school as the manufacturer of lawyers:
[T]he whole point of law school is to train bright-yet-unformed young minds to “think like a lawyer.” You’ve seen The Paper Chase, of course. The brilliant professor Kingsfield humbles the first year law students with his withering Socratic interrogation. Now we’ve evidently turned that model upside down.
Has he seen the movie "The Paper Chase"?! Kingsfield isn't the hero. The law student is, and the film audience is on the side of the student. The film turns that model upside down!
Ah, but Duncan's idea is that he — in the classroom — not as a professor, but an outside speaker — ought to have been respected and revered like the old-fashioned law prof. In that light, he spoofs:
The first year law students ridicule and silence Kingsfield for his cis-hetero-normativity, and then Kingsfield is publicly disciplined by the assistant DEI dean for harming the community’s sense of “belonging” by expecting them to recite a case.
Duncan was not "publicly disciplined." He was interrupted by rude noise from students, and the DEI dean restored order using an overlong speech he didn't enjoy. The dean invited the students to leave the room and they did. He was never pushed to help them feel that they belonged.
What did Duncan actually say after order was restored? He says he declined to give his prepared remarks. So what did he do instead? Did he rise to the occasion? Is there video of what went on after Steinbach spoke? I'd like to see it.
214 comments:
1 – 200 of 214 Newer› Newest»"He and his supporters are engaging in staged public shaming too, and they want a person not just disrupted on one evening but deprived of her job."
What they are asking is for a person who is grossly unfit for a position of authority to be removed from such a position. They still believe that Stanford Law School matters.
Althouse, have you reached China yet?
To Althouse, everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, boils down to a woman's right to choose. Which means the right to have her cake, eat it too. And have someone else pay for it. And not gain any weight, either. But no fat-shaming!
Take the L Althouse.. You’re wrong.
https://stanfordreview.org/fire-tirien-steinbach/
The correct response is to bar any clerks from that school and be done with it. Call it a "judges" veto.
Defending this episode is some truly twisted logic.
Althouse, you're going to need a chiropractor after those mental gymnastics. Preventing someone from speaking by drowning them out is the opposite of civil free speech. Free speech would be for the protesters to offer an alternative venue to give their views. Those student should be expelled, without recourse.
The Stanford Law administrators should not have used her position to critique the speaker until AFTER they had spoken, rather than try to poison the crowd ante rem.
Why are you defending the activist Dean?
Wrong again professor. You must really hate this guy. I can’t believe you’re taking the side of the agitators (both the students and the DEI administrator). The whole thing was orchestrated. “Hostage Video” is a very accurate term.
Xe wasn’t “quieting them down so he could speak” she was lecturing and shaming him and making a public statement in a publicity stunt. The civility bullshit tag should be slapped on Xer.
Pull your head out…. These are bullies at the lunch table. They’re all fucking middle schoolers.
Doubling down, I see. Steinbach did clear the way for Duncan to give his speech, but much depends on the degree of collusion between Steinbach and the protestors and we don't know about that now.
"Tone" matters. He should have gone on to give the speech, but at that point, if you were in his shoes and had received that kind of welcome, would you actually have gone on to give the speech? Create an emotionally fraught situation and people react emotionally. Maybe Duncan was also "hurt" or "harmed" by the reception and was entitled to act that out in the same way that the protestors (and Steinbach) were. Or is it that the mob was free to go with their emotions and he wasn't? That suggests that maybe he wasn't the one "in a position of power."
About the movie: young Hart was indeed the hero of the movie, but when we watch Seventies movies now we watch them with greater cynicism and perhaps greater wisdom. Were the self-destructive rebels of the era really models to follow? I'm not saying that Kingsfield was the hero, but we may see the story in a different light than the audience back then did.
And did you really pay money to read Rod's screeds? Maybe you get a few free before the paywall goes up.
LOL! She didn't quiet the crowd for him- what is so fucking hard to understand about this?
Who is a snowflake now? Were there no students left in the room that might have wanted to hear his speech? Did he, because of his hurt feelings and in a pique of anger deny the students who really wanted to hear him the experience of hearing him? The protestors had left the room, the podium was his. So he actually denied people who may have been supportive of him that opportunity. This Judge sounds like he doesn’t respect free speech of everyone at all, only his speech.
What, exactly, do you think is the job of the "Diversity Dean?" Is it to insult guest speakers, to tell them their viewpoints are wrong? One might think, at Stanford, that the job of the "Diversity Dean" would be to welcome diversity, that is to say, some conservative viewpoints. But no. The job of the "Diversity Dean" is to agree with students, tell them their actions are just and righteous, tell them their university should reconsider its commitment to the 1st Amendment. And then, finally, to allow the invited guest to speak. God, what an awful academic environment you are proposing. This is disgusting.
Power Line has the latest. The Dean teaches a con law class. They dressed up and made her walk through a gauntlet/walk of shame after class. Only 10 students didn't participate.
Ann: The only thing the Dean can do now is expel the students. Otherwise, she's a pussy.
This isn't just a tit for tat. This is just one of millions of examples of the end of civil society. Why invite a person to speak on your campus if you know they're going to be put in- and I agree with his language here- a hostage situation where they wanted him to confess his guilt. The only thing missing in that room were the little red books waving in their hands and the dunce cap placed on his head. We even had the Party leader- the assistant dean of DEI (nothing says State Party like a DEI Dean) overseeing the assemblage. She might as well have been a division head from some dark office in the Politburo, come out to give official backing to Party members.
This is not tit for tat anymore than protesting civilians in China during the Cultural Revolution were just 'tatting back' when they objected to what was going on.
"It's not inherent in the nature of law school that you must meet high standards of etiquette." No it's not. It used to be inherent in much of society, even in lower classes. It was called manners in some homes. That's completely out now. Today we have young people far more impressed with themselves- for whatever reasons- than they should be at their age. With age comes wisdom. I was pretty full of myself as a young man. But I had manners. I knew how to act civilly, which may be why I quickly wandered away from the leftists movements at my U in the early 70s. The left has long made their bones by disrupting civil society, whether it be in Russia, China, Venezuela, Cuba, and on and on. This is what they do. Making excuses for them, or equating them to normal behavior is why we are in our current state. You get more of what you subsidize.
I have never seen anyone dig a hole deeper for themselves over being utterly off base defending the DEI witch and her hit job on the judge ( remember she sent emails BEFORE the event and had a PREPARED speech to “rebut the hurt” - evidence of intent anyone?). And then going after the judge for actually having the temerity to fight back? Horrors!
The ratio on this one is going to be epic.
Judge Duncan, " a staged public shaming."
Exactly.
I had a case where the NE ACLU was a party. Shaming is one of the Left's tactics.
I made a new tag, for "The Paper Chase," and went' back and applied it to old posts. There are 13 posts with that tag now!
"The students protested, as students do"
The students tried to shut down speech, in violation of school policy, hence at a "law" school, sanctions should follow.
Someone mentioned mental gymnastics. Which is worse for the future of American "law," the antics of the new Red Guards, or the liberal rationalizations?
She should be fired because her position shouldn't exist. Should she be fired for this? Probably.
Prof., you are making a false equivalency between the protestors and the Judge. They are not of equal status. The heckler's veto is exactly what we are talking about here. The fact that the Dean eventually quieted down the hecklers (after assuring them they were right and the invited speaker was wrong) doesn't help her cause much.
If the students have their own ideas, they should organize their own event. And that's what she should have told them, in no uncertain terms. That's what she had a duty to do, but it's not what she did do.
It is nonsense to call shouting down a speaker "free speech."
The tables are never turned. There is no forum where a progressive tries to reason, in person, with a conservative crowd. Progressives, should they even desire to try to defend their ideology through reasoned debate, are shouted down by their own kind for "platforming" violence and wrong-think.
So we are firmly in the realm of hypotheticals. My BS meter says that a hypothetical group of conservative students shouting down a progressive speaker would get the Kent State special.
"Who is a snowflake now?"
Igna is now a meteorologist.
Lawyers never get angry and shout and cut off other people who are trying to speak?
I mean, sure they do -- we've all seen the funny deposition videos of lawyers behaving badly. But they're not supposed to, and it always strikes me as a bit unprofessional. We even warn our witnesses to allow time before they respond precisely so we can raise objections without cross-talk. Lawyers aren't gentlemen, of course, but we are obliged, by the conventions of our profession, to pretend to a sort of imitation gentility. Like addressing judges as "your honour," or styling ourselves (somewhat comically) as "esquire."
All that said, I'm sure our judges find it intensely irritating to have people treat them disrespectfully and be unable to pull their usual response, viz. to hold them in contempt and have them clapped in irons or whatever. So I'm not entirely sympathetic to the judge or his injured amour propre either.
For a good 20-30 minutes (I’m estimating), I was ruthlessly mocked and shouted down by a mob after every third word.
So maybe we have to see the whole event, not just Steinbach's speech, to understand Duncan's reaction. If it was 20 or 30 minutes of heckling, that takes a lot out of a speaker and one doesn't immediately recover. Someone inclined to do more research might study how often speakers who receive such treatment do go on to give their speech to the smaller audience once the protesters have left.
"Civility bullshit"? Understand that there is also DEI bullshit. There are the people who are forever trying to protect us from the "harm" caused by speakers who say things we disagree with. The "PC police" have their own form of cant and "civility bullshit."
Who is a snowflake now?
If he used that language against Steinbach and the protestors, then it's fair to use it against him, but if he didn't use that word and if (like me), commenters would object to using it against the protestors it's not exactly fair to use it against him.
>SGT Ted said...
Why are you defending the activist Dean?<
Know what Althouse would be saying if the DEI dean who staged this disgraceful debacle had been a conservative man and the accosted judge had been a leftist woman, and you have your answer.
"He and his supporters are engaging in staged public shaming too...."
Oh please, Professor! There is no analogy here and you know it.
Good Lord, Althouse ... you cannot possibly think we are so naive as to believe that the "Meredith Rainmondo of Stanford" wasn't completely in on organizing this faux protest by her little accolytes and bum-kissers.
Maybe people on YOUR side of the aisle are stupid enough to believe these fake events, but we're not.
Leftist activist "deans" are trying to use faux outrage to change court decisions they don't like - claiming "harm" where there is none. None of these students should be considered for the bar, and if allowed to become lawyers, judges should not admit them to practice in their courtrooms. They're already showing complete disdain for the law and attempting to manipulate judges and court decisions via faux protests of faked outrage.
Why Stanford University would allowing this broad to besmirch the University's reputation and threaten other students' future careers is beyond cognition.
In the Soviet Union the position that Steinbach holds was called "commissar" - the person in charge of political indoctrination and the enforcer of party loyalty. We don't need these in America. These positions need to be eliminated from every organization in which they have been established.
I stand with Judge Duncan.
“So, the judge declined to deliver his speech after Steinbach quieted the crowd for him.”
Heh. Good one.
Like a dog, AA will not leave that bone alone.
Its true some students go to law school without planning on being lawyers. Still, producing lawyers is the focus of most law schools, at least the less than top-ranked schools. Bar Exam passage rates are important to the lesser schools, for example. Many students need to learn and practice the emotional control and discipline required of successful actual lawyers. Students who disrupt, shout, cancel, and harass speakers (and the DEI bureaucrats who enable them) make the education of lawyers more difficult in many ways. Justice Justice (lawyering) is hard, Social Justice is easy: Disrupt things, yell slogans, render yourself useless, and then demand your student debt be cancelled. Don't really need law school for that.
As for why Judge Duncan didn't give his talk after the shabby way he was treated when he first tried to: if I had been him in that situation, then every nerve and muscle in my body would have been twitching from the massive overload of adrenaline coursing through my blood. I'm not sure I could have restrained myself from violence, but I'm certain I could not have achieved the equanimity required to give a calm presentation.
Which is why, in trying cases in court, we insist on advocates who follow the rules and exercise self-restraint along with vigorous advocacy. It's essential to allow reasoned decision-making, instead of chaos and disorder.
Those students were looking for a fight. The ringleaders need to be expelled. The DEI lady need to be fired. The DEI position needs to be abolished. Maybe the DEI office needs to be salted.
The disruptive students should be punished (sorry libs, First Amendment jurisprudence clearly rejects the heckler's veto). I think the University of Wisconsin has a pretty good policy -- a student twice found responsible for disrupting freedom of expression is suspended (three times and you're expelled). The DEI Dean should be fired. Here are a couple examples of people fired for being less disgusting:
Gina Carano was fired after a dumb tweet comparing the treatment of conservatives on social media to Nazi persecution of Jews. Grant Napear was fired by the Sacramento Kings after he tweeted “ALL LIVES MATTER.” High school teachers have been fired for not using students' preferred pronouns. A 22 year old man was fired by a software company after he complained about Bronx bodegas. Newspaper reported have been demoted and fired for saying innocuous things like “people who are pregnant are also women.”
No double standards. If you hurt anyone's feelings, you get fired.
"It's not inherent in the nature of law school that you must meet high standards of etiquette." Oh - is that what happened, or is this a straw man? Is it considered a 'high standard of etiquette' to listen quietly to a visiting speaker with whom you disagree, or would it be considered a standard of behavior for a student body? Alternatively - what about the student's actual behavior for the lecture, and the follow-up with the dean, will further their skills and legal expertise in pursuit of a Law School education? How does Mob Rule prepare them for future legal procedings?
It's an interesting position to attempt to maintain, designed to provoke more conversation I guess.
Is there a hash tag for #OtherThanThatMrsLincoln?
AA writes: "He says it was a "staged public shaming," but that's the same thing as saying that the protest was planned."
Well, since Steinbach read from a prepared speech, it's pretty obvious the protest was indeed planned, and that the Stanford administrators were well aware it would take place. Since it was planned, the time for Steinbach to warn/advise the students not to disrupt the speech was well before they entered the lecture hall (prevention is worth a pound of cure). Instead, the Stanford administrators let the protest go down before they acted.
We don't think it's OK for cops, once aware of an impending violent robbery, to just let it go down and then bust the perps after they've shot up the bank tellers. We expect them to take down the criminal crew before they can act. (I know that comparing a group of folks shouting down a judge is not exactly the same as shooting someone, but I've been taught that speech is violence, so I can fairly use the analogy here.)
As a Stanford grad (MD) I'm embarrassed by the willful partisanship of Stanford's administration. If we as Med Students had behaved that way to a visiting professor with controversial theories, we would have been unceremoniously thrown out of school.
But it's not a heckler's veto, because she was clearing the way for you to speak.
The DEI dean personally orchestrated thirty minutes of student chaos, then launched into her own prepared denunciation of the speaker, but if you want to call that “clearing the way for you to speak,” sure.
She should have calmed the situation by reminding the protesters of their obligations under Stanford’s policies and warning them that violating those policies would carry consequences. Her little lecture was highly inappropriate.
Not only should she be fired but all of the administrators in attendance should be fired.
There was to be a Q&A session - correct? That would have been the proper forum to challenge the judge.
I am sorry, but students, especially law students, who are incapable and unwilling to make an argument do not belong at a university, especially one that considers itself to be the world’s finest university.
Mobs are antithetical to the very concept of the university.
I am not a fan of Liberty U, however, the conduct of students for a speech by Bernie Sanders should be a lesson for the Yahoos that populate “elite” campuses.
https://youtu.be/p5ZB8Lg1tcA
The protestors quieted the speaker, so that the DIE leader (i.e. class-disordered ideologue) could make a speech. Clever. Throw another baby on the barbie, the wicked solution, it's over.
Duncan will dine out on this experience for years.
@Chest Rockwell wrote:
Take the L Althouse.. You’re wrong.
https://stanfordreview.org/fire-tirien-steinbach/
I read the Stanford Review story a while ago and reached the same conclusion. This was a staged setup and at best uncivil and propagandistic. Behavior that might be fine for a political stump speech or activist meeting is not acceptable at a law school.
This event follows a long history of university bullying (for at least 50 years, always from the left) -- and a behavior pattern that dates back to Vietnam and the 1960s Civil Rights Movement. Step by step, generation by generation, Team Left silenced and excluded all nonconformists. Those on the inside felt justified in playing by rules of war rather than those of civil discourse. Review what happened in 2017 to lefty Bret Weinstein at Evergreen College and separately the invited speaker Charles Murray at Middlebury College. There are many more examples too.
https://www.defiance.news/podcast/what-happened-at-evergreen-college-bret-weinstein
https://www.hudson.org/human-rights/charles-murray-shouted-down-on-campus-liberal-tolerance-is-an-assault-on-self-governance-itself
To defend a planned, staged anti-Right event in 2023 at Stanford Law is to say that's how political and legal debates should be handled. No. No. No. This is precisely how fake show trials are conducted, how political opponents are portrayed by a king or dictator before execution by firing squad, and how civil wars begin.
"Nazi!!! Racist!! Fascist!!!"
"Now, children, we need to let him speak. Oh, and by the way, sir, you are a Nazi, a Racist, and a Fascist. Please continue."
Nah, I always consider your viewpoints carefully, but think you're dead wrong. This will only stop happening when conservatives start doing the same thing, but they won't ever be allowed to, and if they did they'd all be summarily expelled.
Paper Chase: I didn't watch it that much, but when I did (mostly the TV show), I was fascinated by the whole intense, graduate school vibe going on, working, working, working on all manner of esoteric problems. When I got to grad school (archaeology) we had our own Professor Kingsfield, although he was kind of a Hillbilly version. Still, he struck fear into all first-years.
Ann Althouse said...It's not inherent in the nature of law school that you must meet high standards of etiquette.
I don't know, Professor; it's hard to imagine you showing deference for that kind of "lack of etiquette" in any other situations. I mean it's not a high standard to require people to not interrupt an invited speaker during their remarks, is it? In another context you've described heckling and being subject to shouted insults "abuse," but here it's just a (seemingly minor) lack of etiquette?
You're someone I respect and certainly want to give the full benefit of the doubt to but I struggle to imagine you'd show this kind of leniency of judgement towards students engaging in this kind of behavior towards a speaker whose views you agreed with or respected. If some Westboro Baptist-aligned law students shouted down an invited speaker lecturing on DEI and the law would your reaction really be "well that's a valid reaction, how much deference students should show to speakers is up for debate, law school doesn't require a high standard of etiquette?" Really?
As a neutral principle "shout down whoever you like" obviously fails--it wouldn't be possible to have speakers. We all understand that there's a double standard at work: the Nice People will allow heckling against "hateful" speakers but will never allow heckling against "good" speakers. It's not civility bullshit to note the rules as applied work to punish only certain speech--must be a coincidence!
Old school and new school - literally. The judge expected the students to listen and counterargue. The administrator provided an example of how you counterargue when a certain type of challenge, the SJW challenge, you might say, has been presented. They are there, they are shouting. Then what? Althouse has been a lecturer in the years just before this type of action. Perhaps she asks herself - how does one handle it? She looks at the administrator - suppose the student mob had been in her office, shouting about her allowing the judge on campus. Did she not demonstrate that she could out-talk them? Yes. But did she demonstrate that she could preserve a space in which to teach the law?
This gets us up to Althouse's specific, stated point - the judge left when the space had been cleared because he didn't like how it was done. So, we'll never know whether the remnant, representing a large consensus, would have listened or whether, as many commenters think, the remnant would not have listened for very long because the school is now in the hands of an anti-law woke mob, impervious to reason because opposed to reason as such
Summarize:
Was it a small mob representing a passing college fashion ("We shout at lectures, not football games, but we're basically football fans, we're mindlessly following a game and its cheerleaders for fun") or was it a representative mob living out the reality that a true, deep diversity of principles logically cannot result in any principled, meaningful action.
So now the students and the DIE lady got what they wanted out of the situation and Ann's extracting what she wants...I don't know what the judge wanted- did he get out of it what he wanted? I now think Stanford is just another academic shithole that once was- if that's what the judge wanted out of it, he succeeded. If the judge thinks it's still 1982 and he expected a free and respectful exchange of ideas on a college campus, well, that's his problem. Wake the fuck up...
Message to conservatives- you need to abandon college campus invites until this shit self destructs them. They need you and will try to trick you in to it- don't bite. They are your enemy and want to hasten your extinction. Don't interrupt while your enemy are making a mistake...
Does anyone imagine if a liberal federal judge (say, RGB) received the same treatment from conservative students that they would have escaped punishment? Or that if it were possible to find an avowed conservative dean who came to restore order instead took the floor not to talk to the student but to lecture RGB on just why she is so evil wrong, the tell her "go ahead. Good luck. I'm on their side." That dean would be fired within the hour.
Remind me: does this REALLY happen to liberal guests? Unfettered?
“Prof., you are making a false equivalency between the protestors and the Judge. They are not of equal status.”
So, the speech of a Judge deserves more value/status than the speech of the common man/woman? Are we back in the era of Elizabethan England?
He's criticizing her voice. He's tone policing!
Actually he is criticizing her prepared remarks.
This wasn't an impromptu standing up for speech, it was a planned public denouncing of the speaker to clear the room before the speech could begin.
Just who is calling for civility bullshit? The invited speaker who wishes to address the audience that came to hear him? Or the staged demonstrators, with the university employee who first reads a list of grievances to the assembled crowd and then lets those who still remain to hear his remarks?
And what was the plan once he began speaking? Was he to be allowed to finish, or be accused of inflicting more "hurt" of the kind he was just apprised that he might?
We don't actually know how this was all to play out because he stopped their play in the middle of the second act.
Apparently Althouse is terrified that conservatives will start pushing back hard against her beloved radicals. And she has a personal animus towards Judge Duncan because (1) Trump appointed him, and (2) he is opposed to same sex marriage. Consequently she twists her logic into pretzels to explain why Dean Steinbach is right (overlooking key facts as needed) and Judge Duncan is wrong.
And thank you, Dave Begley, for mentioning the article on Power Line. You can’t do lefty law students without masks and creepiness.
A laughable digging in from the professor on her laughable hill. We see how tilted the professor has gotten from disagreement here, imagine how she would respond to being treated the way Judge Duncan was, not on the internet, in person, by a frothing struggle session mob.
"LOL! She didn't quiet the crowd for him- what is so fucking hard to understand about this?"
Watch through to the end. She does settle things down.
the judge left when the space had been cleared because he didn't like how it was done. So, we'll never know whether the remnant, representing a large consensus, would have listened or whether, as many commenters think, the remnant would not have listened for very long because the school is now in the hands of an anti-law woke mob, impervious to reason because opposed to reason as such
Is there any evidence that this is true ? I didn't see any but maybe after the video was recorded. I saw no evidence that she did anything but validate their fascist behavior.
What a stupid world we live in.
You are misrepresenting his words. He isn't seeking protection from the administrator's tone: he is seeking professional accountability for the entirety of her behavior. His demand in no way resembles the behavior of his attackers. It's a false equivocation.
Why do you think he was not in physical danger? How could he know what was coming next? How could he know where the students had gone?
The students and the administrator were not engaging in debate. The students were shouting, accusing him of being a racist, of hating black women, and of harming them with his mere presence. Their behavior is indeed simple assault, and their premeditation and racial smears qualify for so-called "hate crime" enhancement as these laws are currently enforced. The administrator, likewise, accused him of causing harm and danger.
Your argument that he should have stayed in a room after being subject to a planned, premeditated attack, coordinated by both students and university authorities, is another false equivocation. The main claim these delusional protesters were making was that he was harming them and creating danger for them. What does a sane person do when hijacked by a mob of delusional people claiming that you are threatening their lives? You get the hell away from the delusional people.
And your argument that it's just fine to commit coordinated, mob-action simple assault at a law school because some students attend law school for reasons other than becoming lawyers is both ridiculous and irrelevant. Surely, nobody should attend law school -- or any other school, or workplace, or professional setting -- in order to practice mob actions against people. And that was what they did. They were not engaging in debate.
I wonder why you can't stop polishing this turd, but I suspect that if you're not constitutionally incapable of admitting error, you are blinded because of your long stint as a professor who never experienced such a disturbing coordinated assault. I have, and frankly, it was terrifying. I know what these people are capable of doing. And I cannot imagine you would permit such behavior in your classroom, against you or any invited guest.
Again, (always?) confused
Colleges kick students out of school for their free speech, pointing out a persons scientific gender.
20 or 30 years ago a guy got disciplined for for yelling at a group of boisterous black women hooting and hollering on the sidewalk at 1 am. "Shut Up you cows"
The cancelling and severe consequences for voicing an opinion out of line with the leftists, has been unrelenting and oppressive.
Students shouting down a judge is a right. Calling Stan, Stan, like the person was known on campus for the last 2 years, now gets you kicked out this year, because Stan has made his fetish, his public persona.
Free speech on campus, or not. But there is a history that informs us free speech only means, approved speech only. Christian, or Conservative speech does not qualify for protection.
The judges speech is not crass, or insulting. He talked about his legal rulings. You don't have to agree with him, but he is not hurting any ones feelings.
The heckler's veto works because it is an aggressive use of speech that amounts to fighting words. You either escalate by your own fighting words (or physical action) or shut up and go away. Once those fight/flight responses are invoked, a man can't simply deliver his mild reasoned remarks (in a quaking voice) without seeming a whipped coward. Anyone like the Dean suggesting that he do so may be engaging in civility bullshit of her own.
I suppose it is an illustration of Yeats' line "the best lack all conviction, the worst are full of passionate intensity."
I don't blame him. Why bother, when a bunch of crybabies from the left are so upset that somebody with a different opinion then them was invited to speak and they act like a bunch of 2 year olds having a tantrum.
So now the students and the DIE lady got what they wanted out of the situation and Ann's extracting what she wants
The bad cop, good copy routine. Clever. The Pro-Choice ethical religion, of course.
Poor students, and poor Althouse. All critiques are "attacks".
The protestors had left the room, the podium was his. So he actually denied people who may have been supportive of him that opportunity. This Judge sounds like he doesn’t respect free speech of everyone at all, only his speech.
You know this how? Is Inga reading minds again ? Or is this another example of Inga-think where she makes up stuff?
@MountainMan: "In the Soviet Union the position that Steinbach holds was called "commissar"...
In the words of After the Fire (1982):
Don't turn around, oh
Der Kommissar's in town, oh
And if he talks to you, then you'll know why
The more you live, the faster you will die
Don't turn around, oh
Der Kommissar's in town, oh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3IOBsR7yGM&themeRefresh=1
Lots of attention paid to this.
I have no idea what the protestors where protesting. The media spent there effort in pigeon holing the Judge by everything but his rulings.
The left is forced to attack a person, and not the ideas, because schools have insulated these "students" from ever having to defend their views, in the open battle field of ideas. All they have left is the personal.
And is a law school just a machine for turning young people into practicing lawyers? No, you can do a lot of things with a law degree, and you can go to any school for your own purposes, including a plan to become a political activist or even to acquire a deep understanding of the subject matter.
Good thing these students will have other options, because I would imagine their struggle session will likely close the door for clerking with federal judges.
If you don't allow lectures, you forbid the view that things that are worth learning can be expressed in words and can be conveyed to an audience.
That's sort of a bedrock.
Traditionally there may be a Q&A, for the other side.
Inner city schools already have tested the results of its opposite, audience rule. Nobody, nobody at all, can read.
Any conservative speak at a college/university should expect to be shouted down. That's SOP for the neobarbarian students and faculty. Excusing the students for their behavior is also a neobarbarism. That dean and the entire DIE/IED staff should be fired, but won't.
The guest speaker should come prepared. Bring 20 security people armed with paint guns. Bring a powered siren that puts out 140-db scream and ear protection for your people. Give the crowd one warning. Then turn the siren on for 60-seconds. Ask if they've had enough. Turn it on again and use the paint guns to humiliate the neobarbarians and get their attention.
Do not put up with the dispruption.
is Professora supporting womyn Dean as Feminist principle?
was it possible for womyn Dean to shorten protest from 20-30 minutes long by any other means?
editorial comment about speaker before even knowing his words to come? is that not prior restraint? = boy!! you better behave
Women have trouble estimating the importance of perverse side effects, when feelings are so important.
I read that a new chapter has opened in the Stanford Speech Suppression Saga, with Dean Martinez facing 50 or so black-clad “students” as she conducted her Monday class on —of all things— Constitutional Law. These “students” were administering the well-known Silent Stink-eye to her (and to any of their classmates who failed to condemn her) for writing the “apology letter” to Judge Duncan.
I rather like this development. The boil has to be lanced. These vicious narcissists want to poison the entire campus? Bring it.
The real questions are (1) did the DEI dean validate the mob or not and (2) does a post-facto "civil" rationalization make blatantly uncivil behavior acceptable; (3) is Althouse taking sides? and (4) should we have a "Althouse's Civility Bullshit" tag? My answers: YES, NO, YES, and YES.
I remember Stanford Campus in late 70's == verdant lawns etc. and open sight lines.
now it is so built up >> just short of past older Mumbai slums [which are becoming more photogenic].
Looks like Wild Swan that Althouse wouldn’t have done anything different. Unless of course as noted earlier the political philosophies had been reversed. I don’t see any other way to view this.
Was I imaging things the other day when Althouse promoted a standard that said that everyone should be willing to consider the merits of their opponents' case?
By the way, did I miss the part where students were forced to attend this speech? If not, everyone was at that speech by choice, and any "harm" is self-inflicted. If you are doing anything other than exercising a heckler's veto, you have an obligation to listen politely.
"It's not inherent in the nature of law school that you must meet high standards of etiquette."
It was at my law school. Civility and respect doesn't require "high" standards, merely minimal standards. Nothing therein threatens students from having ideas of their own.
I was taught that to become an able advocate one must be able to articulate one's opponent's position as vigorously as one makes one's own. How do you convince them to hear out speakers they revile? By reminding them that such actions reveal them to be inept, immature, unfinished and unemployable.
Situs matters not. Classroom, courtroom or auditorium all benefit from simple manners. Just because one can make an ass of themselves doesn't mean they should. Outrageous and impolite conduct is of course protected. But, self-control is what's valued ultimately.
If thing's were so calm following the Dean's nonsensical tirade why was security required to escort him out? I'll bet our hostess's con-law class was a real hoot!
I think college students should be held to higher standards than lawyers, but I'm old-fashioned.
Igna: "So, the speech of a Judge deserves more value/status than the speech of the common man/woman? Are we back in the era of Elizabethan England?"
Really, Igna? Was that the point?
So, the speech of a Judge deserves more value/status than the speech of the common man/woman?
When it comes to giving a presentation to students at a law school? Well... yeah.
I have a hearing this PM before a state court judge. If I started heckling him or opposing counsel, he'd find me in contempt. I'd either be fined or sent to jail.
I don't see any defense for the College Campus "shout down" as a method of protest. It is a liberal method of censorship in temper tantrum form. Stuff like this should be beneath and institution that claims to credential "intellectuals". College has become expensive bullshit.
It is the furthest thing from education, and intellectualism. It is childish. These "students" are going to be worthless pain in the asses in the working world. You'd have to be and idiot to hire them as lawyers.
I don't think the Dean should be fired. Let Stanford rot. This Dean is what Stanford and other liberal colleges are all about. Best part is, nobody who ever made a living in the University system seems to be embarrassed by this shit.
Conservatives should just stop accepting speaking engagements at colleges. Let these frothing liberals shout at each other. The will eventually turn on themselves and ruin their own institutions.
Can you imagine shouting people down in the private sector workplace?
You'd get canned. It would be considered harassment, and you'd be viewed as a cancerous moron.
This is how modern University Administrators and Professors teach these kids to behave. What a waste of fucking money.
It's really kinda of a bonkers position that's been staked here.
On this very blog comments ae moderated--commenters who try to steer conversations away from the given topic are warned and often have their posts removed/not approved; commenters who repeatedly attack others directly or break the rules are banned. No one misunderstands the purpose of the rules nor the "high standard of etiquette" required; it's not civility bullshit nor an unacceptable exercise in tone policing to have those requirements in order to foster the kind of environment the host wishes to have. Heckling isn't tolerated! That less should be expected of law students in the context of a speech given by an invited speaker (where many individuals are physically present/in close proximity to one another) is truly an odd belief.
It's funny to note the lack of empathy and compassion that's shown to the people who wanted to hear the speaker (the people who actually invited him)--they simply don't count.
Duncan will dine out on this experience for years.
That evil, evil man...accepting an invitation to speak at a law school just so he could tempt those innocent students and the well-meaning dean into acting inappropriately so that he could pretend to be the victim. Clearly, he should be impeached.
but that's the same thing as saying that the protest was planned
It was planned. Also relevant: When you are in a hole, stop digging.
"They're just law students, of course they're going to deny speech to someone with whom they disagree! And I bet that judge was nasty to litigants in his own courtroom at some point!"
Wow. Just . . . wow. Next she's going to talk about omelets and eggs. No shame at all.
Inga said...
“Prof., you are making a false equivalency between the protestors and the Judge. They are not of equal status.”
So, the speech of a Judge deserves more value/status than the speech of the common man/woman?
He was invited to speak. That gives him priority over the hecklers and the Dean for the time allotted for his speech, not his position as a Judge.
as I understand
in American football physical tackling is the way to go! and battle of momentum etc.
but in basketball player can be 'cornered' into stasis and contact is forbidden!
and ref will call foul!!??
so when it come to heckler veto is it basketball or football?
heckler veto = your nose better stop short of my extended fist else I will charge you with assault/battery
Your entire critiques presumes that he would have been given respectful silence with which to speak. I don't know how you can assume that, nor even how you could think that was a 50% chance.
Re: retail lawyer:
Its true some students go to law school without planning on being lawyers. Still, producing lawyers is the focus of most law schools, at least the less than top-ranked schools.
Yes, fundamentally, even at the top ranked schools, law school is a trade school. You go there to learn a trade. You don't have to practice that trade after you graduate -- it's not like a military academy where there's a service commitment after graduation. But it's still a trade school. Like medical school, but easier and less rigorous. Or those schools you have to attend to get a beautician license, or whatever, thanks to our hypertrophied professional licensing regime.
Ann Althouse said...Notice the question mark: "Was the juice worth the squeeze?" It's an important question, and she answered it in your favor while also supporting the students.
That's a very generous interpretation, Professor. Credulous in the extreme! I'd read that as a rhetorical endorsement of exactly the heckler's veto the students were attempting--"your presence here has caused so much psychic harm and offended these protestors so much that they're compelled to shout you down and insult you; can't you see it wasn't worth it and you should not have come?" Her speech (taking his time) is a justification of *why* it's right for the students to react to his presence in the way they were.
It's essential to allow reasoned decision-making, instead of chaos and disorder.
Ahhh, there's the rub. Althouse favors feelings over reason.
Someone needs to identify all the law students who "protested" and make sure whatever bar they apply to after law school is aware of what they did before it admits them.
The guy with the "Duncan can't find the clit" sign should have an uphill battle if he ever wants to practice law.
“Watch through to the end. She does settle things down.”
She just ran out of insults
What should scare everyone is that the future lawyers, federal judges, and Supreme Court justices studying law at Stanford and at almost all law schools across the country is that they will let their personal opinions overrule the laws of this country as well as our Constitution. Will they give it their all for a client on the right side of the political spectrum, let alone even represent a client like this? Will they even silently try to make sure their client gets convicted because they don’t like the client’s political positions (an analogy to what DIE Assistant Dean Steinbach did to Stanford’s Federalist Society students and Judge Duncan when she “intervened” to “calm” the mob when all she did was show her support and rile them up even more). As a federal judge or as a SCOTUS justice, will they interpret the Constitution way different than what is actually written? Will they rule that the 1st Amendment and 2nd Amendment to mean to be way different than what has been recognized since the ratification of these documents? Right now, we have the Biden Administration lawyers reinterpreting the Heroes Law that was written to apply to military personnel to cover civilians in order to forgive hundreds of billions of dollars of student loans. That type of legal thinking will one day end up where 5 liberal SCOTUS justices will decide what the 1st Amendment will mean going forward when it comes to freedom of speech and it will not mean what it is recognized as today. These lefty students would prefer a totalitarian government under the facade of our Constitution than to what we currently have in a Constitutional Republic.
Megan Kelly had the student President of the Federalist Society on her radio show yesterday.
(After quite a heated discussion between David Sacks & Vivek Ramaswamy).
The student said: The judge was booked for 1 hour.
The student protest and dean’s response took 35 minutes.
The judge asked repeatedly for an administrator.
Even though he asked the low life DEI babe didn’t initially step forward (watch the tape) until she basically felt like the students got in the hollering, yelling, finger clicks (how fucking stupid is that?) and showing crude signs and listening to a gay man say “I have gay sex, I can find a prostate, why can’t you find a woman’s clit?” to go along with his imbecilic sign.
He also said THERE WERE 5 ADMINISTRATORS in that room!
SO…Iif that doesn’t tell you this was a set-up nothing does. All 5 kept their mouths shut until their chosen person finally stepped up to speak from her prepared remarks.
The judge knew exactly what was going on and knew then there was no way he was going to stay.
And for you Althouse to support this woman just tells me you will always be a liberal and never give it up. AND MAKE EXCUSES FOR THEIR BEHAVIOR.
There is absolutely NOTHING that was handled well at Stanford from the schools perspective.
Oh and now, since the Federalist Society members are getting threats the DEI bitch is telling them to come to a safe space on campus to share how traumatized they are!
Below Judge Duncan writes about my biggest fear: We are descending into barbarism. The George Floyd and J6 riots were bad enough, but if Stanford Law School can't enforce the rules of civil society and teach future lawyers how to behave, then we are truly fucked. And, of course, the Biden Administration makes things worse with its two-tiered justice system.
"What if, in ten or twenty years time, this kind of behavior is the norm in the courtroom, the law firm, the board room? And I don’t necessarily mean loud vulgarity and shouting people down. Instead, I mean a situation where power and ideology always trump reasoned debate. When we reach that place (and I’m assuming we haven’t already reached it in some way), then the rule of law will have turned into barbarism."
If you watch through to the end, it does appear that the protestors left and the Judge could have continued.
He says it was a "staged public shaming,"
That’s exactly what I thought. Y’all can go back and check my comments.
And she should lose her job for encouraging students to be outraged by legal decisions they don't like instead of being taught to engage with the subject on, you know, legal terms. These aren't plumbing students.
The only way I'd hire a Stanford Law alum who came out of that petri dish was to learn that he or she had first been in combat and therefore knew that violence is violence and judicial opinions are words that aren't violence no matter how badly they disturb your worldview.
Tina Trent said ...
I wonder why you can't stop polishing this turd, but I suspect that if you're not constitutionally incapable of admitting error, you are blinded because of your long stint as a professor who never experienced such a disturbing coordinated assault. I have, and frankly, it was terrifying. I know what these people are capable of doing. And I cannot imagine you would permit such behavior in your classroom, against you or any invited guest.
=====
stressing just the last two words >>>
had Professora invited Judge Duncan what would she expect of the class ? what prepared remarks would she utter while introducing the guest
Esteemed Professora => awaitng your extended remarks
As we discussed yesterday, it's okay to set boundaries. His boundary was to not be yelled at and not be spoken about using hateful rhetoric. The boundary was violated, so it was reasonable for him to leave. No one has to tolerate boundary-stompers.
Powerline disagrees with Inga.
When Martinez’s class adjourned on Monday, the protesters, dressed in black and wearing face masks that read “counter-speech is free speech,” stared silently at Martinez as she exited her first-year constitutional law class at 11:00 a.m., according to five students who witnessed the episode. The student protesters, who formed a human corridor from Martinez’s classroom to the building’s exit, comprised nearly a third of the law school, the students told the Washington Free Beacon.
Sure. This is Inga's idea of courtesy to conservatives.
Althouse is giving her analysis. We can judge its merits.
Practicing law is about persuasion. Teaching law is about making students think and explain their thinking.
So far so good.
FFS, doubling down was bad enough, but now the Hostess is tripling down by attacking the man who was the GD victim in this whole mess.
Totally expected though.
I will come back to scroll through the comments and see if Althouse has changed anyone's mind with her "he's SO mean" act.
MarcusB. THEOLDMAN
Moondawgie: "We don't think it's OK for cops, once aware of an impending violent robbery, to just let it go down and then bust the perps after they've shot up the bank tellers. We expect them to take down the criminal crew before they can act. (I know that comparing a group of folks shouting down a judge is not exactly the same as shooting someone, but I've been taught that speech is violence, so I can fairly use the analogy here.)."
You're closer to the target than you think. Ironically, the most famous professor in the California University system, terrorist Angela Davis, did just that: she bought the weapons used to hijack a trial and blow a judge's brains out.
And that is precisely why she was hired as a professor, along with Bill Ayers, Bernardine Dohrn, Susan Rosenberg, etc. They were admired and hired because they were leftist terrorists. Academic is the rotting tooth in our nation's soul and has been for decades, ever since the sort of behavior witnessed at Stanford was first capitulated to at Columbia University some fifty years ago.
I'm against one-sided calls to stand down in the name of etiquette. The students protested, as students do. They're not polite. Should they be more polite?
Students should be civil, irrespective of whether the speaker is controversial.
Ann, what do you think university policy and practice should be? Are the Chicago principles the right standard? If not, I'd like to know why you think not.
Now I agree with you that Judge Duncan was wrong to call for Dean Steinbach to be fired. That's not constructive either. But that's separate from what university policy and the consequences for the students should be. That's a discussion worth having and I'd like to hear your views.
"Ann Althouse said...'It's not inherent in the nature of law school that you must meet high standards of etiquette.'
Omigosh! I missed that. "High standards?"
Was that a joke or after all our efforts is the Prof reverting to type?
The lawyers for the January 6th rioters are idiots, apparently--they should have just argued that their attempt to obstruct the Congressional assembly was just a form of speech (counter-speech) and if they broke a few laws in the course of exercising their 1st Amendment right to speech that's no big deal since it's not inherent in a citizens assembling to meet a high standard of etiquette.
(See how stupid this formulation is? Fucking asinine.)
Meade, the way Ann's digging, looks like she's intent on breaking through to the other side and taking over your "Mumbai sunrise photo" series. Best to just stand back when they're like this.
The judge is still fuming. Good for him. It's time conservatives show their righteous outrage.
I've had a few encounters with the radical left in my own life. My wife and I are active in a local grassroots organization. At a city townhall meeting the trained Leftist agitators showed up in force. It's what they do for a living. I witnessed an incident where a man stood up and began to speak out of turn, saying things the mob didn't like. Without any obvious signal they stood up in unison, masked of course, and slowly, silently approached the man. It was eerie, creepy and very intimidating. The meeting of about 50 concerned older gray haired neighbors quickly broke up as most of the old folks couldn't get out of there fast enough.
I've been in other meetings where they showed up. They are always masked. They are trained in techniques of intimidation. The white middle class older voters seem to fear being called racist more than anything else. I try to encourage them to ignore it but when you've been a white liberal Democrat your entire life being called racist is about worst thing they can imagine. They need to get over it. What's this got to do with the judge? Well, he didn't let their name calling hurt his feelings. He's giving it back as good as he got. Bravo!
The first rule of Club Fem is that, in any argument, the woman is right.
Althouse said…
But it's not a heckler's veto, because she was clearing the way for you to speak. She was caring for the students' concerns and simultaneously helping you.
You’re right. It wasn’t a heckler’s veto. It was a hectorer’s veto.
Duncan said…
she launched into a bizarre (and already printed out) monologue where she accused me of causing “hurt” and “division” in the law school community by my mere presence on campus. So, this had the effect of validating the mob.
You might read comments somewhere that I was, at some point, given “permission” to deliver my remarks by the DEI Assistant Dean, Steinbach.
He wrote this to rebut it but with further reflection don’t you have to say WTF to the idea of her giving him permission?? This is a Constitutionally enumerated right, not a privilege to be mediated by Dean Steinbach or the mob of students.
For a good 20-30 minutes (I’m estimating), I was ruthlessly mocked and shouted down by a mob after every third word. And then Steinbach launched into her bizarre prepared speech where she simultaneously 'welcomed' me to campus and told me how horrible and hurtful I was to the community. Then she said I should be free to deliver my remarks. Try delivering a lecture under those circumstances.
I’m hesitant to post this out of respect for the blog hostess, but it is relevant. I would hope that Althouse does not really intend to place blame on the Judge for being unable to deliver his prepared remarks after prolonged exposure to such a hostile audience without acknowledging that she was once in a public forum with people expressing ideas incompatible with her ideology (and not even shouting, according to published accounts, but just arguing with strongly worded and unyielding opposition) and had to end the conversation because she was in tears. Surely men shouldn’t be held to a different standard and expected to remain composed enough to deliver a speech in such an environment.
Michael K: "You know this how? Is Inga reading minds again ? Or is this another example of Inga-think where she makes up stuff?"
Inga still thinks the hoax dossier was "proven" "mostly true". Literally.
“If enough of these kids get into the legal profession the rule of law will descend into barbarism.”
—- Fifth Circuit appellate Judge Stuart Kyle Duncan
Hard to argue with that. Unfit to chase an ambulance.
Wow. You are so wrong about this. And you won’t let it go.
If the students were in Junior High School, them maybe, possibly the dean’s remarks and actions might be justified or appropriate (if limited to 30 seconds). But even then, coddling and praising the agitators, when what is being asked for is basic common decency, is simply wrong.
And I would absolutely come down the same way if this happened at Liberty University and the invited speaker was Justice Sotamayor. Including the calling for the administrator to be fired.
And that is precisely why she was hired as a professor, along with Bill Ayers, Bernardine Dohrn, Susan Rosenberg, etc. They were admired and hired because they were leftist terrorists. Academic is the rotting tooth in our nation's soul and has been for decades, ever since the sort of behavior witnessed at Stanford was first capitulated to at Columbia University some fifty years ago.
Yup and Obama's "wingman" was the leader at Columbia. Holder has not changed his "spots" in 50 years. He is pushing the "ESG" nonsense.
"sorry libs, First Amendment jurisprudence clearly rejects the heckler's veto."
You should be sorry for misstating the law like that. You're referring to case law that is only about not punishing the speaker because of what the crowd is doing. There's no First Amendment law requiring hecklers to shut up or justifying punishing the hecklers. What the hecklers are doing needs to be an incitement to violence before govt can punish them, and there's a high standard to meet if you want to claim incitement.
Come on. State the law clearly. Ironically, you think you're defending Duncan, but you're not doing what he said he wanted the students to do: behave like real lawyers.
"But it's not a heckler's veto, because she was clearing the way for you to speak. She was caring for the students' concerns and simultaneously helping you."
Just like these guys were "clearing the way" for someone to fess up and repent of their anti-revolutionary sins......
Interested Bystander: "I've had a few encounters with the radical left in my own life. My wife and I are active in a local grassroots organization. At a city townhall meeting the trained Leftist agitators showed up in force. It's what they do for a living. I witnessed an incident where a man stood up and began to speak out of turn, saying things the mob didn't like. Without any obvious signal they stood up in unison, masked of course, and slowly, silently approached the man. It was eerie, creepy and very intimidating. The meeting of about 50 concerned older gray haired neighbors quickly broke up as most of the old folks couldn't get out of there fast enough."
Like their Red Guard "intellectual" forebears, these maoists are out to destroy the Four Olds.
"He wrote this to rebut it but with further reflection don’t you have to say WTF to the idea of her giving him permission??"
That's not how her speech ends. Did anyone actually listen to her words? If anyone can pinpoint where she says she gives him "permission," I will go back and look, but I just listened to the entire end of her speech again, and it wasn't there, not the word, not the idea.
And some of you are saying she just read a prepared speech. That too is incorrect. She has a paper and reads from it some of the time, but most of the time she is speaking extemporaneously.
Aren't you ashamed to talk about a real person without accuracy?
There's no First Amendment law requiring hecklers to shut up or justifying punishing the hecklers.
Is it seriously your opinion that there needs to be?
What the hecklers are doing needs to be an incitement to violence before govt can punish them, and there's a high standard to meet if you want to claim incitement.
When did Stanford Law School become government?
I took my position because after initially blogging a tweet about the incident, I listened closely to the entire speech and realized I needed to defend Steinbach.
I can see attacking the school as a whole for creating the position of DEI dean, but it's wrong to say that she deserves to be fired and accuse her of doing things she didn't do.
There are many ill-considered comments here and, ironically, a real failure to engage with ideas. Do you defenders of the judge's rights actually care about freedom of speech and vigorous debate about ideas? I am not seeing it.
Aren't you ashamed to talk about a real person without accuracy?
The Stanford protestors and the Dean you're defending weren't.
That's the whole point, they violated every social, civil and academic norm necessary for a civil society.
There are many ill-considered comments here and, ironically, a real failure to engage with ideas.
This whole controversy was created when those you are defending refused to engage with ideas. They attacked the man, not the ideas precisely because they were afraid to engage the ideas.
Unless of course your idea of engagement is the heckler's veto.
Screaming that someone is a racist and hates black women is not a vigorous debate about ideas, Ann.
Nor is gaslighting.
And I think you know it.
Well, Ann has convinced Inga of the rightness of her position. That's a start.
Has he seen the movie "The Paper Chase"?! Kingsfield isn't the hero. The law student is, and the film audience is on the side of the student.
Kingsfield isn't the antagonist though, he is the tough old mentor who teaches the hero the skills he needs to succeed. Shouting down speakers because you don't agree with them is exercising the hecklers veto. They get away with it because the authorities are amenable. Don't know how much longer that will continue as GOP establishmentarians continue to be purged from the party.
Do you defenders of the judge's rights actually care about freedom of speech and vigorous debate about ideas?
I used to, but then people started getting shouted down and censored.
Althouse, you presented speech publicly for a living. Did protestors ever disrupt one of your classes or speeches? Did a DEI Dean ever take 20 minutes of your presentation to address the protestors? How did you handle that?
Replying to:
"I can see attacking the school as a whole for creating the position of DEI dean, but it's wrong to say that she deserves to be fired and accuse her of doing things she didn't do."
Even if we credit the DEI dean with good intentions, it's clear that she handled the episode incompetently, at best. With the kind of bad publicity this has generated (and given that her role, in part is to risk manage these issues), that level of incompetence is grounds for immediate dismissal, IMO.
He says it was a "staged public shaming," but that's the same thing as saying that the protest was planned.
No
blocking someone from speaking at a scheduled speech is not a "protect" it is a thuggish assault on freedom of speech, and freedom of academic inquiry.
You are assuming what you have to prove: which is that their thuggish behavior is EVER acceptable
New flash: it isn't
Walking around outside the room where he's talking, showing signs but allowing the speech to go forward, and allowing people who want to hear to go in, THAT is a "protest".
You keep on saying "I'm not defending the students", then you immediately jump in to defend them.
If you want to make the case that people have a right to destroy others freedom of speech, that people have a right to stamp out any academic inquiry that someone else might want to do (note, not just refuse to pay for it, but not allow anyone else to pay for it, either), then out yourself as a fascit and make that case
but stop assuming that it's true, and then going on to beat up the victim.
because it's not in fact true
The multiple Duncan/SlS threads expose the narrowness of the Althouse commentariat. They have so relentlessly dunked on those with different viewpoints for more than a decade that the blog does not attract multiple viewpoints. Sad.
There are many ill-considered comments here and, ironically, a real failure to engage with ideas. Do you defenders of the judge's rights actually care about freedom of speech and vigorous debate about ideas? I am not seeing it.
I am not a lawyer but can accept that there’s no direct 1st amendment violation here. Questions though:
Should the university codes of conduct exist to facilitate and maximize the opportunities for speech? Should such codes be enforced and the universities called out for ineffective enforcement? Is it not at least a violation of the spirit of the university codes if an administrator either actively promotes a protest against an invited speaker (as alleged) or uses her position to express her solidarity with the goals of the protest (as undeniably took place?)
Should statutory laws also reinforce such standards of conduct and are there laws in this jurisdiction against disruption of a public forum?
Ann Althouse said...Come on. State the law clearly.
How about showing, clearly, the Stanford policy on Campus Disruptions?
Standfod: Student Rights & Responsibilities - Campus Disruption
Excepts, my bolds:
It is a violation of University policy for a member of the faculty, staff, or student body to:
Prevent or disrupt the effective carrying out of a University function or approved activity, such as lectures, meetings, interviews, ceremonies, the conduct of University business in a University office, and public events.
---
The policy has been applied to the following actions: refusal to leave a building which has been declared closed; obstructing the passage into or out of buildings by sitting in front of doorways; preventing University employees from entering their workplace; preventing members of a class from hearing a lecture or taking an examination, or preventing the instructor from giving a lecture, by means of shouts, interruptions, or chants; refusing to leave a closed meeting when unauthorized to attend; and intruding upon or refusing to leave a private interview.
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It should be understood that while the above are examples of extraordinarily disruptive behavior, the application of the Policy also takes situational factors into consideration. Thus, for example, conduct appropriate at a political rally might constitute a violation of the Policy on Campus Disruptions if it occurred within a classroom.
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Stanford's Fundamental Standard
“Students are expected to show both within and without the University such respect for order, morality, personal honor, and the rights of others as is demanded of good citizens. Failure to do this will be sufficient cause for removal from the University.”
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So is the tactic now to say that these particular interruptions/heckling weren't a violation of this code of conduct for some technical reason, or to say that they obviously were a violation but that's a good thing since the code is wrong/should be challenged/interrogated or something?
Honestly, this is getting painfully stupid. Was what the students did legal? Yeah, probably. Was it a violation of their code of conduct as students at Stanford? Yeah, certainly.
Was it a good or moral thing to do? It really doesn't seem like it but if that's what someone wants to argue they ought to say why and if it's for some reason other than "my side/good people should be able to shout down their side/bad people" it'd be nice to see some commitment to whatever principle is invoked when it applies to disfavored ideologies.
because she was clearing the way for you to speak
He was invited, he didn't need her permission or clearance to speak. She was setting herself up as having that power.
Ann, you are so wrong on this.
I am not a lawyer (thank God!) but I am an adult with common sense. This is my take - the students are...STUDENTS - they are there to LEARN. They may agree or disagree with what is presented, they may push back during Q&A or even protest AFTER hearing what was presented.
In contrast, the judge is a professional, out in the world, DOING (not learning) his craft, presumably at this point an expert. He is invited to present to the students. (I apologize this is so elementary but this concept seems to be lost.)
The students (who are interested and choose to attend) should LISTEN to the invited guest, the speaker, digest what he says and then decide where they stand and take appropriate action afterwards.
Althouse seems to be twisting herself into a pretzel to present a sensible position.
To me, the judge was an invited guest - that is the end of the story.
(And at the most, protesting should have taken place outside the venue.)
You are forgetting that the activist DEI dean sent numerous emails before the event stirring up the mob against the judge.
Shouting down an invited speaker is a blood sport on campus these days on the basis of "fragility" of students, who sure don't appear very fragile (or even know who the speaker is). Do you (stanford law) really want a rep as a school that disrespects federal judges?
The full context of the quote from the judge containing the phrase “gave him permission” is that other people are defending her on those grounds. I am not claiming that she said those words, although I don’t think it's an unreasonable interpretation.
"Do you defenders of the judge's rights actually care about freedom of speech and vigorous debate about ideas?"
The medium is the message in this case. If you wear a swastika patch on your arm and march in a torchlight parade with your fist in the air, I don't need to listen to your prepared speech, I know what you are. If you behave like a mob leader in the Cultural Revolution, your actual words are irrelevant, I know what you are.
Ann Althouse said...
I took my position because after initially blogging a tweet about the incident, I listened closely to the entire speech and realized I needed to defend Steinbach.
If DEI REQUIRES the suppression of all opposing points of view, then DEI is evil, un-American, and must be destroyed
If DEI does NOT require that, then Steinbach's actions, from praising the Brownshirt thugs who disrupted his speech, to hijacking his speech to spout her own worthless drivel, to her moronic claim that the Judge's talk wasn't "worth the juice", when the only speech there not "worth the juice" was hers, were all inexcusable and unjustifiable
And you've utterly failed to justify them
I can see attacking the school as a whole for creating the position of DEI dean, but it's wrong to say that she deserves to be fired and accuse her of doing things she didn't do.
Do tell, what "didn't she do"?
Praise the Brownshirts? but she did, and I quoted that to you yesterday
Carry out an assault on the whole concept of academic inquiry? That's what she did. That;'s the entire purpose of her "is it worth the juice" blathering, it's the announcement that her political ideology is more important than free academic inquiry
There are many ill-considered comments here and, ironically, a real failure to engage with ideas. Do you defenders of the judge's rights actually care about freedom of speech and vigorous debate about ideas? I am not seeing it.
What "ideas"?
The idea that someone's worthless political ideology is more important than freedom of speech?
The idea that people who you like have "feelings" that are "privileged" over everyone else's rights?
That's just fascinating bullshit
And she stomped all over the feelings of the students who wanted the judge there, and wanted to listen to him.
If talking when you harm people's feelings is wrong, then she and all her Brownshirts need to STFU.
If it's not wrong, then they have no grounds for complaint about his speech.
The only way they can have grounds for complaint is is "some people are more equal than others".
Which is to say if you're a racist pig
Ann Althouse said...
And some of you are saying she just read a prepared speech. That too is incorrect. She has a paper and reads from it some of the time, but most of the time she is speaking extemporaneously.
WTF? She spoke from notes she prepared ahead of time
Which means that she actively worked with Brownshirts to trample the free speech rights of the judge and the students who wanted to listen to him, so that she could force her speech on them.
The point is that she wouldn't have had those notes to talk from if she hadn't been planning on disrupting his speech in the first place.
That is pretty much the most pathetic "reach" I've ever seen you try to pull
The Nazis cleared the way for jews to travel to Auschwitz, is probably about as appropriate as claiming Steinbach cleared the way for the judge to speak.
`I have not called for the Diversity Dean to lose her job, for the simple reason that she is doing exactly what the University hired her to do. Her job - literally her only job - is to marginalize conservatives, and make sure everyone knows that conservatives and their ideas are outside the norm, wrong, unapproved, and only occasionally, begrudgingly to be tolerated. Each instance of tolerance must be accompanied by a statement reinforcing the institutional attitude that such ideas and such people are Wrong.
That is the job of every Diversity Dean, Director, Manager, Leader, bureaucrat at every institution that has one - without exception. To pretend otherwise is to engage in what we should call Ignorance Bullshit.
"blocking someone from speaking at a scheduled speech is not a "protect" it is a thuggish assault on freedom of speech, and freedom of academic inquiry."
Progressives don't seem to have any problem with redefining words when it suits their purposes.
Ann Althouse said...Do you defenders of the judge's rights actually care about freedom of speech and vigorous debate about ideas?
I care more about the rights of the students in the group that invited the judge to speak, Professor. Once again they're ignored. The free speech rights of the hecklers matter but the free speech rights of the students who invited the speaker don't, for some reason.
The effect allowing this kind of disruption has on the willingness of other students and groups to openly engage in unpopular speech also doesn't seem to matter much--if letting the mob shout down this speaker makes it less likely for other groups holding minority positions on campus to participate in speech by inviting speakers, well, tough shit for them, I guess. Empathy can be so selective!
When I shout down speakers it's an expression of vigorous debate. When YOU should down speakers it's a fascistic violation of my rights, has a chilling effect on the free exchange of ideas, and is an intolerable form of abuse.
When I violate the code of conduct it's righteous--it's not like I should be held to a high standard of etiquette. When YOU violate the code of conduct it's a serious matter and you should be censured, banned, or expelled--your expression could cause harm!
See how easy it is?
Here, how about this one?
Standford Bans Chaze Vinci '23 From Campus
This jackass posted racist and misogynistic stuff to his social media and Stanford reacted by banning him from campus and investigating. The university president said his posts "created pain, fear and anger for many people” and that “[t]he threatening language and identity-based attacks in the posts are totally inconsistent with what we want, or will accept, at Stanford.”
Any concerns about the freedom of speech and vigorous debate in that case? Why not? That student didn't make any actual threats or break the law with those posts (he defended rapist Brock Turner and said "women get what's coming to them" but didn't personally threaten anyone) so it sure seems like he was suspended for the content of his speech and the disruption it caused. No tears for him, though, I'd bet--he violated the Code of Conduct after all, and sometimes that matters!
Althouse: And some of you are saying she just read a prepared speech. That too is incorrect. She has a paper and reads from it some of the time, but most of the time she is speaking extemporaneously.
This is you lawyering the truth. Nobody cares whether the speech was partially prepared or completely prepared.
The fact that it was any amount prepared indicates that it was staged.
The guy was invited to speak by the University. Not invited to debate or receive a denunciation from a university official acting in an official capacity.
He's right to leave and not speak. Staying and speaking would be like realizing you're being interviewed by Borat and just continuing to treat it like a straight interview.
Stanford is right to sanction or fire her because she was clearly being insubordinate and acting against the express intent of her employer. She was supposed to facilitate a speaker's address, and instead used it as an opportunity to make her own planned remarks denouncing his. It'd be like letting the DA cut into a defense lawyer's opening remarks to harangue him. Totally inappropriate and bad lawyering.
Of course, you know better, and you're not convincing anyone with your prevarication, except maybe yourself.
Althouse: And some of you are saying she just read a prepared speech. That too is incorrect. She has a paper and reads from it some of the time, but most of the time she is speaking extemporaneously.
This is you lawyering the truth. Nobody cares whether the speech was partially prepared or completely prepared.
The fact that it was any amount prepared indicates that it was staged.
The guy was invited to speak by the University. Not invited to debate or receive a denunciation from a university official acting in an official capacity.
He's right to leave and not speak. Staying and speaking would be like realizing you're being interviewed by Borat and just continuing to treat it like a straight interview.
Stanford is right to sanction or fire her because she was clearly being insubordinate and acting against the express intent of her employer. She was supposed to facilitate a speaker's address, and instead used it as an opportunity to make her own planned remarks denouncing his. It'd be like letting the DA cut into a defense lawyer's opening remarks to harangue him. Totally inappropriate and bad lawyering.
Of course, you know better, and you're not convincing anyone with your prevarication, except maybe yourself.
I've been a lawyer for most of my adult life. My view is that the protesting students should be disciplined, along with the dean.
However, something changes when a lawyer becomes a Judge. I've seen it happen many times. Judge Duncan was not a presiding judge in a court of law. He was a guest lecturer willingly going into the lion's den at a left-wing law school. As a Judge, he is used to being treated almost like royalty. Judges in the U.S. are as close as we get to having medieval kings and queens, and they expect to be treated as such. They wear black robes, they sit on a quasi throne (the bench) and look down on everyone else in the courtroom. You must always rise whenever they enter or leave the courtroom. Everyone is forced to address them as Your Honor, and May it please the Court. You dare not raise your voice to them or contradict them, even when they are clearly wrong. If you misbehave in their courtroom, they have the power to have you immediately arrested, charged with contempt, and then sentence you up to 180 days in jail for such contempt. All at the same time. (At least in my district they do.) I have been berated by a Judge for showing up in his chambers (not the courtroom) for not wearing a tie. I have been yelled at by a Judge for not immediately coming to his chambers when summoned, because I was on the phone with another lawyer about a hearing that was scheduled that very morning in front of the same judge. He berated me in the presence of other lawyers I practiced with. Most judges are not like this, but I can see how a judge like Judge Duncan could get used to being treated like a king, and the protesting students were not what he was used to in his court of law. I am not saying I agree with Althouse putting this in the category of civility b.s., but I am saying that judges are used to being treated like royalty. They expect and demand it.
My favorite law professor was an older guy who loved to hunt and raise bird dogs. He told us one day that when he was in private practice he always named his worst bird dog "Judge." Then, when the dog screwed up during a hunt, he would yell as loud as he could, "Judge, you god-damn stupid son of a bitch! How could you be such a fucking idiot!" He said it was a great way to relieve stress.
Ann Althouse said...Do you defenders of the judge's rights actually care about freedom of speech and vigorous debate about ideas?
I care more about the rights of the students in the group that invited the judge to speak, Professor. Once again they're ignored. The free speech rights of the hecklers matter but the free speech rights of the students who invited the speaker don't, for some reason.
The effect allowing this kind of disruption has on the willingness of other students and groups to openly engage in unpopular speech also doesn't seem to matter much--if letting the mob shout down this speaker makes it less likely for other groups holding minority positions on campus to participate in speech by inviting speakers, well, tough shit for them, I guess. Empathy can be so selective!
When I shout down speakers it's an expression of vigorous debate. When YOU should down speakers it's a fascistic violation of my rights, has a chilling effect on the free exchange of ideas, and is an intolerable form of abuse.
When I violate the code of conduct it's righteous--it's not like I should be held to a high standard of etiquette. When YOU violate the code of conduct it's a serious matter and you should be censured, banned, or expelled--your expression could cause harm!
See how easy it is?
Here, how about this one?
Standford Bans Chaze Vinci '23 From Campus
This jackass posted racist and misogynistic stuff to his social media and Stanford reacted by banning him from campus and investigating. The university president said his posts "created pain, fear and anger for many people” and that “[t]he threatening language and identity-based attacks in the posts are totally inconsistent with what we want, or will accept, at Stanford.”
Any concerns about the freedom of speech and vigorous debate in that case? Why not? That student didn't make any actual threats or break the law with those posts (he defended rapist Brock Turner and said "women get what's coming to them" but didn't personally threaten anyone) so it sure seems like he was suspended for the content of his speech and the disruption it caused. No tears for him, though, I'd bet--he violated the Code of Conduct after all, and sometimes that matters!
As HoodlumDoodlum points out, any lecture disruption is against Stanford’s code of conduct. Because of that, the students need to be reprimanded, and the DEI org removed. The DEI ideology, animated via disruptive activism, is clearly not aligned with Stanford’s mission. Either the students and faculty adhere to the code, or they don’t. If not, they must not be welcome on campus.
I imagine that many Stanford Law alums are outraged by this event, and are letting their feelings known to the administration.
Jeezus, Althouse, you are on the wrong side of this event.
Blogger Readering said...
The multiple Duncan/SlS threads expose the narrowness of the Althouse commentariat. They have so relentlessly dunked on those with different viewpoints for more than a decade that the blog does not attract multiple viewpoints. Sad.
That's one take. Another is that none of the regular lefty commenters can find a coherent dissenting argument.
Your comment is itself evidence of that.
Question soon to be answered: Do Lizard People inhabit earth’s hollow center?
I concur w/ the judge. Sure, Ann's scrutiny reveals that he expects more respect than he gives on some level, but DEI people should all be forcibly relocated, ideally, so they can't perpetuate the current troubles forever, as is their evident preference.
NYTimes: Colleges Rescinding Admissions Offers as Racist Social Media Posts Emerge
NPR: Harvard Rescinds Admission of 10 '21 Students Over Obscene Facebook Messages
The big Ivies won't let you attend if you said some bad things when you were 14, but please tell me more about their deep and principled commitment to freedom of speech and vigorous debate.
Stanford Daily: Student Senate Declines to Fund College Republicans Mike Pence Event
FIRE - Yale Law Pressured Student to Apologize for Using Phrase "Trap House"
Daily Mail: University of Chicago Law Professor Suspended Over Censored Words in Exam
I could go on, but the "fact pattern" is pretty clear; maybe spare the appeal to a free speech ideal for institutions that at least pretend to care about it--certainly most law schools and elite universities don't.
The length of this post, and the vitriolic anger, are hilariously obviously tied to your fealty to academia.
Summary of this post: Tell us you're a law professor without telling us you're a law professor.
Pro tip: You're self righteous indignation over some bullshittographer administrative bitty is waaaay over the top. The disproportionate size, volume and outrage are more comedy than persuasive. As Glenn R. might say, you've beclowned yourself with this post.
@Althouse: "There are many ill-considered comments here and, ironically, a real failure to engage with ideas. Do you defenders of the judge's rights actually care about freedom of speech and vigorous debate about ideas? I am not seeing it."
If this event was set up as a panel discussion or a debate, then yes have a debate with equal time for each participant. However, a guest was brought in for a solo presentation and showboat activists attempted to steal the spotlight and/or transform and/or repurpose the event. I watched the usurper speak and she came across as a too-clever know-it-all. This is common human relationships stuff -- all other details are not important.
As others have said, your continued tone comes across as defensive and loophole-focused 'lawyer' language.
Take the L, AA.
First rule of holes...
I'm interested in hearing what some of my Sanford grad friends think of this. I shall send send a few emails this PM...
...and yes, I have three or four. Stop giggling...
What about the virtue of Humility and the value of Listening?
Ann Althouse said...
"sorry libs, First Amendment jurisprudence clearly rejects the heckler's veto."
You should be sorry for misstating the law like that. You're referring to case law that is only about not punishing the speaker because of what the crowd is doing. There's no First Amendment law requiring hecklers to shut up or justifying punishing the hecklers. What the hecklers are doing needs to be an incitement to violence before govt can punish them, and there's a high standard to meet if you want to claim incitement.
Wow, you just love digging the hole deeper, don't you
1: There is no 1st Amendment protection for the "hecklers' veto", because shouting down someone so they can't exercise their free speech rights is NOT "freedom of speech".
2: Stanford University rules require the punishment of hecklers who violate other people's free speech rights, especially when they're violating the free speech rights of an invited speaker speaking at the specified time and place for the speech
3: You babble about "engaging with ideas" in defense of people who refused to do so. And the idea you want us to "engage" with is that left wing scum bags have the right to destroy our freedom of speech
Fine, I engage: FOAD
You can not have a functional society, or actual education, with the "ideas" you're espousing here. And you know it
https://stanfordreview.org/fire-tirien-steinbach/
And she ended by encouraging the protests: “I’m really grateful to be in this institution. I look out and I don’t ask ‘what is going on here?’ I look out and I say, ‘I'm glad this is going on here.’”
Are you "glad" those Brownshirts were trampling all over the decent people's freedom of speech?
If not, then why are you defending Steinbach's celebration of them?
Ann gets pissed off when you post off topic. Yes, the hypocrisy oozes...
I've been following all of this from a distance--but since the debate between Prof. Althouse and her commenters had grown so heated, I decided to actually watch the video, along with reading Judge Duncan's interview with Rod Dreher, and then try to apply some of the "cruel neutrality" that is Prof. Althouse's signature approach. Here are my thoughts.
Prof. Althouse is correct on this point: Stanford DEI Dean Steinbach did not read from a prepared speech. She obviously had some notes (whether rough or polished is impossible to tell) that she consulted a few times, but most of her speech was extemporaneous and actually quite heartfelt. She's pretty eloquent on her feet. Nor did she, as far as I could tell, purport to give Duncan "permission" to proceed with his speech. I think Judge Duncan is being thin-skinned in this respect--and also pulling rank in an unpleasant way ("sitting federal judge," et.).
The problem was that Dean Steinbach was completely out of line in lecturing the judge on how "hurtful" his legal opinions were and how he made the students feel as though they had no right to "exist." She could have briefly and firmly addressed the students directly: "Look, I know how Judge Duncan's opinions make many of you feel hurt--I sometimes feel the same way myself, and my office was set up precisely to help you if you believe you've been treated unjustly. But Judge Duncan is an invited guest of the Stanford Law School, and here at the law school one of our bedrock principles is free speech, which means letting invited speakers speak--and then challenging them afterwards...." That was all she needed to say, sympathetically but firmly. She should never have addressed a single word to Judge Duncan except to invite him to speak and to reiterate that he was a Stanford guest. All that business about the "juice" and the "squeeze" was completely uncalled-for. Along with her pure (and belittling) speculation as to what he was going to talk about.
In short, Dean Steinbach took sides--with the grossly rude students in a manifestly unprofessional manner for a top administrator at a top law school who is probably being paid an awe-inspiring salary. I think Judge Duncan went too far in calling for her to be fired--but if I were running the Stanford Law School and saw one of my deans causing royal embarrassment to my institution, I'd think twice about keeping her on.
Finally, here's a point on which I strongly disagree with Prof. Althouse: Law school is a professional training school, like med school, or like Ph.D. programs, which train their students to be professors. Law schools train their students to be lawyers. Sure, some law-school grads elect not to practice law and to use their training for something else--but that's beside the point. In law school they are lawyers-in-training, period, and because of that, part of their training should be the professional etiquette that lawyers owe each other and the judges in whose courtrooms they appear. Just as med students can't inflict pain on patients just because they disagree with the patients' political views (this was an actual incident in the news a few months ago), law students shouldn't be able to get away with disregard for basic lawyers' etiquette.
He and his supporters are engaging in staged public shaming too, and they want a person not just disrupted on one evening but deprived of her job. That's tit for tat and a refusal to stand down.
But, Mooooom! He hit me back!
Your take on this incident just keeps getting worse with every post.
Ann gets pissed off when you post off topic. Yes, the hypocrisy oozes...
This Judge sounds like he doesn’t respect free speech of everyone at all, only his speech. - Ingacile
An invited speaker should respect the free speech of the mob trying to shut him down.
I figured there would be a stupider interpretation of this mess somewhere. Thanks for coming through.
The students claim that heckling is free speech. I wonder how they would feel if their favorite lefty came to speak and a single student with an airhorn prevented her. Is that free speech then?
@Ann: I can see attacking the school as a whole for creating the position of DEI dean, but it's wrong to say that she deserves to be fired and accuse her of doing things she didn't do.
HoodlumDoodlum and Greg the Class Traitor kind of beat me to this, but it bears repeating.
Stanford University has an extensive policy regarding speech on campus: Freedom of Speech & the Fundamental Standard.
Within it is this passage: Students at Stanford are expected to show both within and without the University such respect for order, morality, personal honor and the rights of others as is demanded of good citizens. Failure to do this will be sufficient cause for removal from the University.” One of the basic values under the Fundamental Standard is that “Students are expected to respect and uphold the rights and dignity of others regardless of race, color, national or ethnic origin, sex, age, disability, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity, or socio-economic status.” Another basic value is that “Students are expected to uphold the integrity of the university as a community of scholars in which free speech is available to all and intellectual honesty is demanded of all.
Dean "Dolores Umbridge" Steinbach is just as subject to the *Fundamental* Standard as is everyone else, and as Dean of DIE, is professionally obligated to know upon assuming her position where the remit of DIE lies with respect to the Fundamental Standard.
It seems clear she was aware of what was likely to happen at Judge Duncan's lecture. Her professional obligation was to remind the protestors of the Fundamental Standards limits on their conduct, and the consequences should they fail to adhere to those limits.
She did no such thing.
Furthermore, she came very close to the line, if indeed she didn't step over if, of slandering Judge Duncan.
From her remarks: "We believe that the way to address speech that feels abhorrent, that feels harmful, that literally denies the humanity of people …"
Taken in context, that is directed at Judge Duncan. And either Dean Steinbach is unaware of the literal meaning of "literally", or she better have ready proof of him doing that very thing.
What did Duncan actually say after order was restored? He says he declined to give his prepared remarks. So what did he do instead? Did he rise to the occasion? Is there video of what went on after Steinbach spoke? I'd like to see it.
Blame the victim much?
This is very much of a piece of the Kavanaugh hearings. Epic, baseless, character assassination. Assumption of guilt by mere accusation. And there were people who decided he wasn't fit for the bench because they didn't like his reaction.
There are many ill-considered comments here and, ironically, a real failure to engage with ideas. Do you defenders of the judge's rights actually care about freedom of speech and vigorous debate about ideas?
It has been restated so often I can't believe you have missed it. Without freedom of speech, there can be no debate about ideas. The tyrants-in-waiting acted vociferously to eliminate freedom of speech, thereby ending any possibility of debate.
They could have held signs. They could have asked pointed questions during the Q&A. Instead, they engaged in gross insults and pronunciamentos. (Great word, btw. DIE is pronunciamentos all the way down.)
Dean Steinbach's failure to comprehend the Fundamental Standard, and DIE's position with respect to it, caused her to, along with pandering to thugs who have learnt nothing from the Cultural Revolution, bring Stanford into serious disrepute.
If that isn't a firing offense, what is?
What, exactly, do you think is the job of the "Diversity Dean?"
That is a good question. Suppose you were making, oh, I don't know, 400K per annum, as a Diversity Dean at Stanford. What do you suppose your workload would look like? I mean, the folks over at admissions are already deciding who gets in. Your job is to ... what? Oh yeah. Collude with the campus branch of Antifa to disrupt the occasional conservative speaker. That shouldn't take 40 hours a week.
"The free speech rights of the hecklers matter but the free speech rights of the students who invited the speaker don't, for some reason."
Ms. Steinbach finished her statement by saying students who might be bothered by the judge's comments could leave and saying the judge could continue.
"Stanford is right to sanction or fire her because she was clearly being insubordinate and acting against the express intent of her employer. "
How? She is a DEI administrator, and handled this incident within what I'd guess are the boundaries of her job description. I wish she had gotten to the point of defending the judge's right to speak sooner, but her job, as very likely defined by her superiors, probably requires a hyper-sensitive approach to everyone's emotional reactions to things. We can lament that students are that touchy. We can think the idea of a DEI administrator is silly. However, it appears to me that she did the job as she believes her employer requires.
She simply should not have been put in the position to have to maintain order in this instance. Some other official should have been given that task.
The notion that speaking on a college campus is "going into the lion's den," as lonejustice puts it above, is an indication that the notion of a law school or university as a forum for thought, analysis and education is no longer applicable to our most lauded institutions.
The Stanford Law students have continued to behave badly, now to the law school's dean, Jenny Martinez. Her job is now that of lion-tamer, not educator.
The students say "Conter-speech is free speech!" This is a gross misunderstanding. You or anyone else can produce speech, but only the audience can turn that into free speech by allowing you to be heard and by not retaliating against the you. Getting this fundamental fact backwards confuses repression and aggression with the exercise of one's legitimate rights (and justifies just about everything, come the revolution).
Althouse, it is hard to imagine you are not trying to pull our collective leg. The evidence so far available (that I am aware of) shows:
..the local Federalist Society invited a distinguished Judge to speak;
..the event was taken over in a pre-planned attack by administrators and students;
..the distinguished speaker was mocked and insulted;
..the Federalist Society members were denied hearing the invited speaker.
Consider if:
..the group of classical music aficionados to which you belong had hired a venue and arranged for a renowned string quartet to perform - a rare opportunity to see this group in person;
..immediately the curtain is raised, the auditorium is flooded by a hoard of raucous porn rappers, some of whom mount the stage and commence a continuous rap performance involving crude sexual references to the musicians, while others romp through the seating area making loud yells and cat-calls;
..every time the yelling stops and your invited string quartet begins to play, the music is at once drowned out by yells and cat-calls;
..at length, the musicians sense there will be no end to this, so they pack up and leave town.
You are on the wrong side of it here, Professor.
The multiple Duncan/SlS threads expose the narrowness of the Althouse commentariat. They have so relentlessly dunked on those with different viewpoints for more than a decade that the blog does not attract multiple viewpoints. Sad.
You're here. With a different viewpoint. Why don't you defend the Dean's actions instead of chastising those who think she was wrong?
Or is this a bridge too far ... even for you?
Blogger Readering said...
The multiple Duncan/SlS threads expose the narrowness of the Althouse commentariat. They have so relentlessly dunked on those with different viewpoints for more than a decade that the blog does not attract multiple viewpoints. Sad.
Hilarious. You are one of multiple lefty "viewpoints" that post here. A few were worthwhile. Most, like "A Reasonable Man," and Ritmo and Inga have a very narrow POV. Does it make you wonder if formerly "left" commentators, like Glenn Greenwald, Matt Taibbi and Bari Weiss seem to have drifted right? Maybe that's because the left has gone off the cliff.
There are many ill-considered comments here and, ironically, a real failure to engage with ideas. Do you defenders of the judge's rights actually care about freedom of speech and vigorous debate about ideas? I am not seeing it.
This would be understandable if it was parody. The Stanford students did not engage in "free speech." Neither did that DEI dean with her prepared remarks. This was a setup from the start and you should recognize that and admit it. The sequel Monday with that weird demonstration confirms that that "Law School" is no longer teaching law.
There are many ill-considered comments here and, ironically, a real failure to engage with ideas. Do you defenders of the judge's rights actually care about freedom of speech and vigorous debate about ideas? I am not seeing it.
This would be understandable if it was parody. The Stanford students did not engage in "free speech." Neither did that DEI dean with her prepared remarks. This was a setup from the start and you should recognize that and admit it. The sequel Monday with that weird demonstration confirms that that "Law School" is no longer teaching law.
Do you defenders of the judge's rights actually care about freedom of speech and vigorous debate about ideas? I am not seeing it.
Why couldn't the protesters simply speak somewhere else? Or is the right to speak in a particular location a function of "free speech"?
For the left, it would seem to matter quite a lot. "Speaking truth to power" requires power to sit down and be spoken to for the "right" to be exercised.
But that's not what the first amendment says. We've heard over and over that the citizens on January 6th had no right to enter the Capitol building as part of their constitutional right to speak.
So we keep playing this game where one side is always present and combative in their "speech", while the other is either forced to sit and listen or is being arrested for getting too close to their intended recipient.
I would like to not only talk about the right to speak, but the increasing inequality of circumstances in which it is or is not allowed.
What everyone needs to realize is that Ann and Steinbeck are in the same tribe.
They are Human Resources administrators. They are women that hate men and hate spend their lives in a status war with men. They value their positions of power.
These women are part of the elite male harem. In return for status granted to them by institutions run by elite males they spend their time attacking the males who are in opposition to the elite male caste and low caste males.
The positions these women hold have no concrete productivity. They don’t make anything. There are no standards involved in anything they do. This is how a “constitutional professor” could “find” abortion in the constitution. Those “Dean” of diversity inclusion equity produces nothing that anyone actually wants.
By attacking Steinbeck you all are attacking Ann’s tribe.
She will defend this Maoist bullshit because her life was spent serving her harem master’s wishes. She pretends she was helping women fight the patriarchy.
The problem as always is a lack of self awareness.
Greg: "And she stomped all over the feelings of the students who wanted the judge there, and wanted to listen to him."
All feelings count equally, but some more equally than others.
And they are still protesting.
Glad I'm not at Stanford Law.
What a fucking nightmare!
The value of your degree is shrinking by the minute.
Tuition per year: $66,924
I would urge any and all students to pull out your iPhones and document everything that happens at Stanford Law.
Ms Althouse,
Love your blog, have read it for near 20 years, rarely comment.
1st time I have percieved you as "jumping the shark".
Ann said: There are many ill-considered comments here and, ironically, a real failure to engage with ideas. Do you defenders of the judge's rights actually care about freedom of speech and vigorous debate about ideas? I am not seeing it.
The commentators need to understand that there are expectations ( rules? ) here. And when you are invited to comment in a forum, you should conform your needs and behavior to the customs and expectations of the host. If the custom of the host is to shout you down, heckle you, challenge your sexual competency or make you a wrong person; you should just meekly accept your experienced welcome. So, if you are invited to enter the domain of another, especially that of a university, you must conform to what is expected of you.
Kirk Parker said...Althouse, have you reached China yet?
LOL. She has dug deeper holes for lesser causes.
"There are many ill-considered comments here and, ironically, a real failure to engage with ideas. Do you defenders of the judge's rights actually care about freedom of speech and vigorous debate about ideas? I am not seeing it."
The judge's ability to be heard was being interfered with from the outset. What ideas were being debated?
Steinbach did not defuse the situation, her speech and testimony are evidence that she led the protest to a semi-captive audience. Nice. Diversity of color and bigotry in class-disordered ideologies.
That said, diversity of individuals, minority of one. #HateLovesAbortion
guitar joe said...Ms. Steinbach finished her statement by saying students who might be bothered by the judge's comments could leave and saying the judge could continue.
Hey, that's true--they *could* leave. It was nice of her to say the judge could continue; not sure why permission for that would need to be given, but nice.
Also? Anyone who "might be bothered by the judge's comments" could NOT HAVE ATTENDED AT ALL. This wasn't some mandatory course. This wasn't some outdoor speech they couldn't help but overhear--everyone there made a fucking choice to attend. That's why, as a defense of their bad behavior, pointing to how bad a person the judge is or how awful his words were is galactically stupid: the only way to hear those words or be in his presence was to voluntarily attend the FedSoc event. The protestors objected to the judge being allowed on campus at all, as they loudly repeated, which again makes the defense that they were engaging in a debate over his ideas a moronic position.
The protestors shouted down the judge because they didn't want to allow him to freely speak. That's the purpose of shouting someone down! You can call that a form of counter-speech if you like, but it's heckling.
The people who object to the judge's alleged belief that trans people shouldn't exist have no qualms about shouting their belief that the judge shouldn't be allowed to exist on "their" campus.
Any harm done to them by being witness to his speech was wholly self-inflicted and suffered voluntarily--they did not have to attend. Contrast that, by the way, with university requirements of diversity statements, mandatory DEI training, etc--and keep telling me these people care about free speech and free thought ideals.
>> "Stanford is right to sanction or fire her because she was clearly being insubordinate and acting against the express intent of her employer. "
> How? She is a DEI administrator...
She simply should not have been put in the position to have to maintain order in this instance. Some other official should have been given that task.
If an employer gives you a task, then it is your job job description. And if you ignore the unspoken Orwellian aspects and go with the plain English meaning, a DEI administrator is perhaps the most appropriate person to take on this task. Their job description is literally to foster inclusiveness and diversity, which is what the university was doing when they invited the guy to speak.
By getting up and denouncing him, she was quite literally sabotaging an official university of effort to include and offer diverse viewpoints. And she was modeling and encouraging that behavior for the students, not teaching them to be inclusive or welcoming of difference.
In short, she didn't want to do her job, and she purposely did it in an insubordinate way that sabotaged the effort the university was making.
It was the equivalent of asking your accountant to get you $100 out of petty cash and having the accountant walk in and drop $100 in pennies in your office, give you the finger, and stalk out.
The university should absolutely punish her.
The majority of Martinez’s class—approximately 50 students out of the 60 enrolled—participated in the protest themselves, two students in the class said. The few who didn’t join the protesters received the same stare down as their professor as they hurried through the makeshift walk of shame.
"They gave us weird looks if we didn’t wear black" and join the crowd, said Luke Schumacher, a first-year law student in Martinez’s class who declined to participate in the protest. "It didn’t feel like the inclusive, belonging atmosphere that the DEI office claims to be creating."
You Must Wear The Ribbon
Charles W. Kingsfield Jr. : Mr. Hart, here's a dime. Call your mother, and tell her there is serious doubt about you becoming a lawyer.
James T. Hart : [pause, as he is leaving the room] You... are a son of a bitch, Kingsfield!
Charles W. Kingsfield Jr. : Mr. Hart! That is the most intelligent thing you've said today. You may take your seat.
Achilles said...
What everyone needs to realize is that Ann and Steinbeck are in the same tribe.
They are Human Resources administrators. They are women that hate men and hate spend their lives in a status war with men. They value their positions of power.
These women are part of the elite male harem.
She will defend this Maoist bullshit because her life was spent serving her harem master’s wishes. She pretends she was helping women fight the patriarchy.
-----
Achilles -- Congratulations! You win the prize for the most misogynist comment in this thread! Maybe you should ask Meade about this. I know from personal experience as a male trial lawyer that women lawyers and judges are just as fair, if not more so, than male judges and lawyers. See my earlier post here. Those judges who most demanded total control and subservience of everyone in their courtrooms, well, they were all male judges. Every single one of them. I'm not saying Judge Duncan is a snowflake, but he needs to understand that when he is outside of his personal reign as a king in his courtroom, people are not going to treat him as a king. The robe is off.
Tuition per year: $66,924
Speaking of squeezing and evaluating the juice…
I watched the video. This does not qualify for your "civility bullshit" tag.
Why even invite people to give a speech if you are going to shout them down? Tell me about civility again?
It is clear she Steinbach should be fired, because she is an incompetent. And for that matter, fire all DEI administrators, and give the students a credit on their tuition.
The effect allowing this kind of disruption has on the willingness of other students and groups to openly engage in unpopular speech also doesn't seem to matter much--
This is part of the basis for my own non-lawyer opinion. A week or so ago on another subject here, the commenters from the Left were using a tight frame for something that can also - and in my opinion should - be examined in wider frame. Viewing this incident as a one-off is too narrow, and restricting it to a freedom of speech issue is also too narrow.
The big issue, it seems to me, is the contention that the judge's and the Federalist Society's speech - as examples - are treated as violence even when they aren't allowed to speak, and the students' and the dean's speech - as counterexamples - are lauded as admirable and brave in the face of a power differential that did not exist.
Who has the power in this situation? It isn't the judge and it isn't the Fed Society. The protesting students outnumbered both, and the dean holds a position of administrative authority, including (I presume) enforcement authority, over the Fed Society students. The putative "harm" could not possibly go in the direction the students and the dean were claiming. And this is how it is whenever this shouting-down approach rears its head: the people claiming "harm" and "vulnerability" have the power, and the supposed aggressors don't.
In other words, I see the big issue as truth.
Free speech doesn't have to be true. But it is not wrong, or a failure of analysis or of commitment to free speech, to point out when speech is false.
In the smaller frame - the dean had no business speechifying. She was there as a representative of the university with a specific role to play - ensuring order and compliance with the university's policies. Apparently she didn't ensure order but instead fomented disorder, both before and during the speaker's time, and she didn't do anything about compliance with university policies, except a sop at the end where the speaker could have used half his time; she didn't point out consequences for noncompliance, for instance, much less impose those consequences later. Instead she took 20 minutes to expound on her own opinions and their merit and how they were in line with the student protestors'.
Oh - also wider frame - behavior is contextual in every society, and the students and the dean (because of her expressing her personal feelings where she was not there to act as an individual) failed to behave appropriately in that context. Appropriate behavior is not a free speech issue but it does matter to society at large.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/03/trump-judge-kyle-duncan-stanford-law-scotus-audition.html
Lonejustice, Duncan was outside his courtroom and not a "king," but he was an invited speaker at an institution of (supposedly) higher learning. He was treated, however, in a most disgraceful, rude, and anti-intellectual way. With the active support and participation of a dean of the institution that invited him. That's what makes this whole episode particularly outrageous. That the dean eventually -- after 30 minutes of hectoring, lecturing, and abuse by either or or the student thugs -- mouthed a (pained) invitation for him to speak does not make up for all that preceeded it, including the dean's own behavior, as Althouse seems to think.
"She simply should not have been put in the position to have to maintain order in this instance. Some other official should have been given that task."
A point I made in my post.
"If an employer gives you a task, then it is your job job description. And if you ignore the unspoken Orwellian aspects and go with the plain English meaning, a DEI administrator is perhaps the most appropriate person to take on this task. Their job description is literally to foster inclusiveness and diversity, which is what the university was doing when they invited the guy to speak.
"By getting up and denouncing him, she was quite literally sabotaging an official university of effort to include and offer diverse viewpoints. And she was modeling and encouraging that behavior for the students, not teaching them to be inclusive or welcoming of difference."
Some circular reasoning here, and an attempt to impose your idea of what a DEI administrator's job should be.
Look, the whole idea of a DEI administrator is dopey. Colleges have lots of dumb administrative positions. People here are mad about the way Ms. Steinbach handled this, and are eager for someone to take the fall. My candidate would be whatever other college executive, probably her boss, assigned this job to her. The college president, the law school dean, or some other person should have handled this issue.
Decide whether you want fairness or just want to see someone get punished because you don't like their job or point of view.
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