Said Volodymyr Zelenskiy, quoted in "Zelensky declares war on an enemy within the Ukrainian Orthodox Church new/Kyiv fears a Russian fifth column is operating inside one of the country’s oldest and most powerful institutions" (London Times).
[There is] competition between the older Ukrainian Orthodox Church and its young rival, which calls itself the Orthodox Church of Ukraine.... [T]he latter is under the Orthodox church of Constantinople, which recognised it in 2019 after it broke away from the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. The older denomination has historically recognised the authority of the Russian church in Moscow, and its head, Patriarch Kirill, is a fervent supporter of President Putin....
“It’s not about religion — it’s a matter of national security,” Solomiia Bobrovska, a member of Ukraine’s parliamentary security committee, said. “The Russian church is not a religion. It is part of the network of the FSB [Federal Security Service of the Russian Federation].... They will fight back... They will say that we are persecuting Jesus Christ...."
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42 comments:
As we keep funneling billions to him, whilst our country is suffering, and a lot of us are losing our savings....
Sounds like what black pastors have been doing here for years...
The Biden/Maidan/Slavic Spring in the Obama World War Spring series, eight years at war with Ukrainians disenfranchised, and a rogue regime one part removed in progress.
Surely the Ukrainian attempt to de-Russianize what they consider their territory has crossed the line to ethnic cleansing.
The reasons we are stuck to this tarbaby continue to evade me. I suppose the military-industrial complex is a reason but, if so, why are they destroying the US military with vaxx mandates and CRT nonsense? Maybe Austin wants an all black force but, if so, he has to do something about black literacy.
The co-opting and infiltration of religious organizations is a standard part of the Russian playbook, as outlined in Anne Applebaum's great book, "...The Crushing of Eastern Europe". How many US religions would be able to resist comparable efforts? Pretty close to zero.
The Bolsheviks gutted the Russian Orthodox Church over a century ago when they took over Russia to institute the Soviet Union. The Communists were officially atheists and viewed organized religion as a destabilizing threat to their dictatorship. The church somehow survived for 7 decades. When the Soviet Union fell, the church, having the memory of its decimation by the Commies, cozied up to the replacement Russian government for protection. When Putin came to power, he recognized that he could use the symbiotic relationship with church to his benefit and embraced the church for his needs. Meanwhile the Russian Orthodox Church had major influence with the Orthodox Church in Ukraine. So when Russia invaded Ukraine, the church supported the invasion as a righteous decision by Russia. I can understand why Zelenskiy is suspicious of the Orthodox Church inside his country. After all, Putin has tried to create dissent in Ukraine for over a decade with propaganda, ethnic Russians living in the country, and ethnic Ukrainians sympathetic to Russia.
So.. REMEMBER!!! The Ukraine IS Freedom.. The Ukraine IS Civil Liberty..
That is WHY, if your church does Not support the government of the Ukraine.. In EVERY Way..
Both you And your church will be imprisoned, and Probably shot.
NO ONE is permitted to Question the government of The Ukraine.. to do so, means DEATH
because.. Just to remind you.. The Ukraine IS Freedom.. The Ukraine IS Civil Liberty..
Opposition to The Ukraine is Opposition to Freedom.. Opposition to The Ukraine is Opposition to GOD.
ALL are required to accept The Ukraine.. Without question; to do otherwise is to be a fascist
(or something)
Dude...you're right next door to a country with which you share almost 1300 years of history, culture, language, religion, and tribulation. "Build an empire in the Ukranian soul"? The the aggressor you're talking about culturally originated in your country.
I wish this guy would stop and think for a second about the divorce he's advocating for and contemplate what that actually means in terms of execution. Being someone else's bitch in the brothel of world affairs isn't trading up, muh dude.
Yes, they will. One of the world’s most corrupt nations will stop at nothing.
Ukraine is a fascist state.
It has an illegitimate regime that was installed by western led coup.
It is run much like the United States.
Both regimes use censorship and state run media and violent paramilitary elements to attack dissenters.
And if you do not support The Ukraine and US governments then you are a Putin puppet and an enemy of democracy.
Ukraine is slightly less corrupt than Russia.
Now Zelensky wants to control the Orthodox Church in his country.
I feel bad for Ukrainians. They have all grown up in a corrupt country with scumbag leaders like Zelensky.
Fuck him.
You can be certain that for all the blather we read here about Russia and Ukraine, the older branches of Orthodoxy will never consider a regime led by a Jew legitimate.
Regardless of all other factors.
Reasonable minds might disagree on this point and the whole of Ukrainian history as told by the anointed hero of our War. Neocons of both parties agree: he’s our man. We absolutely must sacrifice our blood and treasure to Save Ukraine, like we saved Korea and saved Viet Nam and saved Iraq and saved Afghanistan. You will own nothing and thank us!
Michael K said...
The reasons we are stuck to this tarbaby continue to evade me.
DC is funneling taxpayer money to Ukraine and 10% magically makes it's way back to DC.
Zelensky has a knack for picking the darker path.
there are both political and theological problems with the Ukrainian orthodox church. And the dispute goes back at least 500 years.
https://theconversation.com/why-a-centuries-old-religious-dispute-over-ukraines-orthodox-church-matters-today-109768
there are both political and theological problems with the Ukrainian orthodox church. And the dispute goes back at least 500 years.
https://theconversation.com/why-a-centuries-old-religious-dispute-over-ukraines-orthodox-church-matters-today-109768
wendybar said...
"As we keep funneling billions to him, whilst our country is suffering, and a lot of us are losing our savings...."
The people in charge here just don't care. You and I are in their way.
The Russian Orthodox Church has never NOT been an arm of the Russian state, and usually a willing one.
In the West the mainstream churches make a show of independence from the state, but most of the time they are as ready to render unto Caesar as any patriarch.
Lol
I posted this in the Althouse forum before and it's appropriate to post it again:
"The Orthodox Churches are all national churches. They have ALWAYS kissed the ass of the secular powers, including the Communists when the Communists finally stopped killing them and allowed them to kiss ass. It even led to a break, still not yet resolved, of the Russian Orthodox Church, Moscow Patriarchate, vs the https://orthodoxwiki.org/Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia.
The jibe that the Roman Catholic Church always hurled against the Orthodox was that they considered being Emperor/Czar as the eighth sacrament. There are historically good reasons for such deference, e.g. many of the great ecumenical councils of the first thousand years of the Church were convened by the emperors (e.g. Nicea), but the Orthodox are really something else in Church history in terms of their deference."
Among the Ukrainian speaking areas of western Ukraine, the primary church is not an Orthodox Church, but rather the Ukrainian Catholic Church, an Eastern Rite church which uses an Eastern/Orthodox style of liturgy, but is in communion with the Roman Catholic Church. Of course, as was their wont, the czars persecuted the Ukrainian Catholic Church in areas under Russian control, but historically it flourished in areas in what is now Ukraine that were at one time or another under control of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Poland, or Lithuania.
Another reason for the Ukies to be pissed at the Russkies.
No word of the overflow of weapons into Africa? I'm Shocked! Shocked, I tell ya!
Christ's churches have survived enemies outside and within.
The abolitionist movement in the United States grew from Christians. And yes, they were opposed to the morality of other Christians who were wrong, and pro-slavery.
Let's be thankful and not forget that the first amendment allowed this righteous movement to flourish. Nobody outlawed he churches. They burned 'em, but they didn't outlaw them.
Zelinsky is no John Brown.
Yeah and Russian propaganda has no influence over you Trumpers. 😂 lolololol.
You are so desperate for the love of a strongman, you'll suck up to Putin to get it.
Rhonda Santas 2024
I recommend looking at this twitter thread before jumping to conclusions about the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
https://twitter.com/iverbytskyi/status/1599390844653486080
The Ukrainian Shias and the Ukrainian Sunnis can't abide one another and we have ourselves caught in the middle again? Great.
Which ones do we like? I forget already.
Gotta support democracies!
Was he playing the piano with his penis while he said that? Where was he, anyway? Anyone know?
Grifting Biden family money launderer says what!
Bob Boyd said...
The Ukrainian Shias and the Ukrainian Sunnis can't abide one another and we have ourselves caught in the middle again? Great.
Which ones do we like? I forget already.
The ones that kick the most money back to McConnell, Pelosi, and Biden.
Howard said...
Yeah and Russian propaganda has no influence over you Trumpers. 😂 lolololol.
You are so desperate for the love of a strongman, you'll suck up to Putin to get it.
Rhonda Santas 2024
Howard reads a story about the Ukrainian Regime that has already arrested all political opposition now deciding to outlaw an entire religious denomination.
And his take is Trump supporters are supporting Putin.
You re just really an idiot. A dumb fucking tool who knows that the DC regime is just laundering money through Ukraine.
But you re so blinded by hate that you are allowing yourself to say something this stupid.
What does Zelensky have to do before the USA power elite right/liberal/left will disown him? He's forced unwilling Ukrainians into the army, he's sent tens of thousands to their deaths, the heat/electricity for millions of others is gone, his secret police is imprisioning and killing dissidents, opposition parties have been shut down, the press is completely censored, etc. And now the Orthodox Church is about to be brought under the thumb of a Athiest Jew Comic = who plays the piano with his penis = because its suspected of "Treason".
Yet, none of this affects our Power elites undying support for Zelenksy and this useless war. It reminds me of their full-throated support of that bloody tyrnat Stalin. Once our power elite decides some foriegn policy objective is the correct one, they are cold as ice and ruthless as Ghenghis Kahn. Firebomb Dreden? Sure. Drop an A-bomb? Why not. Intern the Japanese? That's war baby. Kill 500,00 Iraqi's? Got to do it Bro. Kill a million Vietnamese and 56,000 Americans in Vietnam? Got to be done.
How many Billions have we sent to Ukraine all ready? 100 Billion? To cause death and suffereing for something that has ZERO to do with the USA security. Meanwhile millions of illegals pour over our border, because hey, if drugs, disease, or criminals come on in, who cares? They're not hurting the power elite! They're not showing up in Georgetown, Martha's Vinyard Beverly Hills or Ahterton.
And the american Sheeple cheer it on. Its entertaiment. Lets cheer for Zelensky and boo Putin.
Blogger Howard said...
Yeah and Russian propaganda has no influence over you Trumpers. 😂 lolololol.
You are so desperate for the love of a strongman, you'll suck up to Putin to get it.
Rhonda Santas 2024
Howard, why not try to understand that nothing in Ukraine is worth the billions of dollars we have sent them? Of course "The Big Guy" is getting his 10% regularly.
What the Hell is going on here? I've never seen such an avalanche of utterly, demonstrably, false statements on this site. Let's take a small selection.
But first, there are 3-4 orthodox churches in Ukraine. Zelenskyy has only criticized the ones controlled by Russia. The Twitter thread which Clark linked to while I was typing all this disentagles it very clearly. Briefly, the Russian Orthodox Church is utterly corrupt, the 'Ukrainian Orthodox Church' pretends to be separate from it, but never published the documents making the separation, the 'Orthodox Church of Ukraine' is actually the independent Ukrainian church, recognized by all the other patriarchs except the Russian, and there are also Uniate Christians in Ukraine, who use the eastern rites but follow the Pope. Velenskyy has not inconvenienced or even criticized the last two in any way, and has done nothing to the first two yet except to investigate their relationship to Russia and their avid support for Russian victory from behind Ukrainian lines. It looks like he may be planning to deport the leaders with Russian passports (many have them) to Russia. Not kill them or imprison them (contra gilbar, 2:13pm), much less any kind of "ethnic cleansing" (Lloyd W. Robertson, 2:04pm), just send them where they belong. And not "deciding to outlaw an entire religious denomination", either, as Achilles puts it (8:05pm). Of course, the Russians are practicing ethnic cleansing in the areas they occupy, filling mass graves, confiscating Ukrainian passports, and sending hundreds of thousands to Russia against their will - or to the front lines, if they're male.
Achilles (2:20pm): "Ukraine is a fascist state." Only in the parts occupied by the genocidal fascist Russians. "It has an illegitimate regime that was installed by western led coup." Zelenskyy was not installed by a coup, but elected in a far less dubious election than our last two. After Yanukovych fled from the Maidan revolutionaries to Putin's side, there was an interim government and an election which Poroshenko won. (Yanukovych's sidekick Dobkin ran on Y's party platform and came in 6th with 3.03% of the vote: nobody wanted Yanukovych or his party back.) Poroshenko, not Zelenskyy, was the guy who bribed Hunter Biden: Hunter left Ukraine and gave up his salary there the very month Poroshenko left office. P. also locked up the woman he defeated on bogus charges. Poroshenko ran for reelection and was crushed by a total non-politician, comedian Zelenskyy. It looks to me like Ukrainians in 2019 were as fed up with corrupt professional politicians as Americans were in 2016 and decided to vote for a total non-politician. Given the timing, they were probably inspired by us: "Electing a successful entertainer with zero political experience worked out pretty well for them: why don't we?"
Mike (MJBWolff) (2:55pm): "We absolutely must sacrifice our blood and treasure to Save Ukraine". What blood? Ukraine has never asked for US or any NATO troops, just for enough equipment and ammunition to do the jobs themselves, and enough money to stave off bankruptcy (their economy has shrunk by a third). They're winning now, and could win a lot faster (saving lives on both sides) with some slightly newer equipment (tanks, anti-aircraft gear, and longer-range missiles). Even the second- and third-string stuff we send them is crushing the Russian army - the HIMARS they've been using to destroy fuel and ammo dumps is late '90s tech.
The fact is that helping Ukraine win with NATO technology will save a huge amount of money in the long run. They are demonstrating just how vastly superior NATO technology is, so we can (once China collapses, anyway) spend far less on quantity and just concentrate on keeping the quality way ahead of the rest of the world.
"What does Zelensky have to do before the USA power elite right/liberal/left will disown him?"
Lose.
President Muhammadu Buhari on Tuesday said weapons from the raging war between Russia and Ukraine are now slipping into the Lake Chad Basin region.
The people of Afghanistan are just too brown to fight for also.
Rusty said...
wendybar said...
"As we keep funneling billions to him, whilst our country is suffering, and a lot of us are losing our savings...."
The people in charge here just don't care. You and I are in their way.
12/4/22, 3:52 PM
Except when they take all of our money to launder through Ukraine... Next they will be coming for our 401K's and savings accounts.
Arms that we are sending to them are making their way to Boko Haram in Africa. They are using us. https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/athena-thorne/2022/12/04/u-s-arms-sent-to-ukraine-make-their-way-to-boko-haram-n1650836
Dr. Weevil, the main problem i have with this War is the incomprehensible moves Biden has made all along to slow walk US assistance, the lies about what US assets and personnel are doing and especially the lack of transparency or clarity or competence of our military and intelligence operations. They all insisted Kiev would fall within 48 hours, that Russia would limit themselves to a “small incursion” and then repeatedly held back assets and equipment. And damn how those sanctions worked, right?
Ukraine is a corrupt quagmire and I don’t trust either side in this war including our CiC and both countries involved.
i always love how Americans LOVE war, and always putting out this tripe about "we need to fight 'em over there or we'll be fighting them over here." They said that about Kaiser Bill, Hitler, MUssolini, north korea, Mao's china, vietnam, iraq and now Putin.
Russia can't even beat the Ukraine, so how are they going to "Conquer Europe"? Tell me why - in concrete specific terms - how Putin is the enemy of the USA and what he's going to do to the USA? The warmongers can't because their reason for fighting the war is all RHETORIC.
The real motivation is they love war. They either make money off it, or they just find it fascinating. The macho chest thumpers, who love to play Risk. Reality: Ukraine is 5000 miles away, its been controlled by Russia until 1992, and has never been part of NATO. Its has ZERO to do with our REAL security.
rcocean (4:47pm):
Just who is it that you think you're arguing against? You put "Conquer Europe" in quotation marks. Whose words are those supposed to be? Ctrl-F gives me zero uses of "conquer" in this thread.
And who is saying "WE [emphasis added] need to fight 'em over there"? Some of us are arguing that we need to supply the Ukrainians with the means to defend themselves, but I don't see anyone wanting to join the fight ourselves, nor has Zelenskyy asked us to. Either name names or admit your're strawmanning.
Nor is it true that Ukraine "has ZERO to do with our REAL security". Bill Clinton signed the Budapest Memorandum (28 years ago today, as it happens) guaranteeing the security and "existing borders" of Ukraine in return for them giving up their huge pile of nuclear weapons. Telling them that guarantee means nothing now would certainly damage our real security, by demonstrating to the world how utterly worthless a president's solemn promise is - especially if he's a Democrat.
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