Says Jordan Peterson, talking to Piers Morgan about how to conduct an inteview. He's distinguishing YouTube from "legacy TV." He's responding to Morgan, who has just acknowledged that Peterson is phenomenally successful on YouTube:
They're right about the constraints of television, but I want to show you this amazing segment of television from October 9, 1970, when the host, Dick Cavett — and guests Jeanne Moreau and Lee Marvin — kept almost entirely quiet for minutes on end while Truman Capote stumbled and mumbled his way to the most important question in the world:
Was Capote straightforward? He was untrammeled and unscripted! But straightforward may seem like the opposite of what he was. And yet, his struggle to find his point is real, and isn't that a form of straightforwardness? I don't think he's holding anything back, and I don't think he's using more words than he needs. He's just very, very needy.
While everybody is struggling to express themselves with words and feelings, Lee Marvin just sits there, looking, not saying a word. And everybody knows exactly what he is thinking.
To borrow a tik-tok generation phrase for someone who pulls out a pre-Johnny Carson 60's talk show clip to support an argument made in present-day 21st century context about television,
"Tell me you're a boomer without telling me you're a boomer."
Or the shorter version:
"Okay, boomer."
This is kind of a sad post; it undermines the blog's otherwise consistently sound judgment (even where tastes (ahem... Bob Dylan) differ). Nice clip, though; it reminds of when TV talk shows still had a few that reasonably intelligent people could actually enjoy. As you've noted, however, that's not been the case for several decades.
RideSpaceMountain: "Capote always used more words than he needed."
Capote would, without being malicious or sarcastic in the slightest, nor being aggrieved or proceeding with an unearned sense of entitlement, and with full understanding that RideSpaceMountain was not intending to be accusatory in an out of line or mocking way,....
Best part: The thinly-veiled, sustained glare of disgust on Lee Marvin's face as he beholds the unbelievably poofy performance going on across the table from him.
"Tell me you're a boomer without telling me you're a boomer."
None of the people in the clip are "boomers" and in a "pre-Johnnny Carson 60's talk show clip" the oldest "boomer" in the audience would have been 7 years old.
You don't seen to know what the Hell you're talking about.
His comments on Hemingway were interesting. I think he's talking about "Islands in the Stream" and yes, he's right the first third is every good. I like the last part too, but wouldn't expect Capote to. And yes, the middle third is a disaster.
Thank God Mrs Hemingway did NOT listen to capote, since I liked reading it, and even 2nd rate hemingway is better than 1st rate almost anyone else.
Watching some of Cavett's shows on DVD is a real trip. He's witty without being funny. His opening monologues are painful. His interviews are hit and miss, if he has someone he's simpatico with, they're very good, if he doesn't click with them, they're awful. His one with Bob Mitchum for example.
Not surprising, given Lee Marvin's background (from wiki):
"Marvin enlisted in the United States Marine Corps on August 12, 1942. Before finishing School of Infantry, he was an quartermaster.
Lee served in the 4th Marine Division as a scout sniper in the Pacific Theater during World War II,[6] including assaults on Eniwetok and Saipan-Tinian.
While serving as a member of "I" Company, 3rd Battalion, 24th Marines, 4th Marine Division, Lee participated in 21 Japanese islands landings and was wounded in action on June 18, 1944, during the assault on Mount Tapochau in the Battle of Saipan, during which most of his company were casualties. He was hit by machine gun fire, which severed his sciatic nerve, and then was hit again in the foot by a sniper. After over a year of medical treatment in naval hospitals, Marvin was given a medical discharge with the rank of private first class. He previously held the rank of corporal, but had been demoted for troublemaking."
Of course, according to our New Soviet Democraticals led by Dementia Joe, all that makes Lee Marvin only about 10% of the "hero" that Beau Biden was before Beau was torn from us during "heavy combat in Iraq".
Saw this last week on TV. Truman would be a tough choice for a road trip. Jeanne Moreau had a beautiful mouth. At least Lee got to smoke during Truman's struggle to explain heart-break.
The Picture of Little T.C. in a Prospect of Flowers
See with what simplicity This nymph begins her golden days! In the green grass she loves to lie, And there with her fair aspect tames The wilder flowers, and gives them names; But only with the roses plays, And them does tell What colour best becomes them, and what smell.
Who can foretell for what high cause This darling of the gods was born? Yet this is she whose chaster laws The wanton Love shall one day fear, And, under her command severe, See his bow broke and ensigns torn. Happy who can Appease this virtuous enemy of man!
O then let me in time compound And parley with those conquering eyes, Ere they have tried their force to wound; Ere with their glancing wheels they drive In triumph over hearts that strive, And them that yield but more despise: Let me be laid, Where I may see the glories from some shade.
Meantime, whilst every verdant thing Itself does at thy beauty charm, Reform the errors of the Spring; Make that the tulips may have share Of sweetness, seeing they are fair, And roses of their thorns disarm; But most procure That violets may a longer age endure.
But O, young beauty of the woods, Whom Nature courts with fruits and flowers, Gather the flowers, but spare the buds; Lest Flora, angry at thy crime To kill her infants in their prime, Do quickly make th' example yours; And ere we see, Nip in the blossom all our hopes and thee.
Lee Marvin was an actor. He wasn't, in real life, the goon he frequently played in movies. The notion that he would have been "disgusted" by Truman Capote's "poofiness" is cruder than most things that goon-character might have come out with.
And no, everyone doesn't know exactly what Lee Marvin is thinking as he listens silently to another guest's conversation.
The clip is from 1970, so the oldest Boomer in the original audience would have been 24, not 7! But this is beside the point, because the "Tell me you're a Boomer" snark was directed at Althouse.
If I understand the comment correctly, it means Althouse confusedly thinks a TV show from that era can be relevantly contrasted to what we see or don't see on TV now. She supposedly thinks today's TV can be measured against the former kind.
I think so too.
The commenter seems to think we don't hear intelligent, civilized conversation on TV now because it doesn't exist any more. Because if it existed it would be on TV, right? Who's really naive?
Ford gave him some work in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance and Donavan's Reef. From there he went to The Killers (better than the original, in my opinion, and Ronald Reagan is awesome as a bad guy).
Really enjoyed The Professionals, The Dirty Dozen and Point Blank.
And if you haven't seen The Big Heat, you really ought to check it out.
Rabel said: “You don't seen to know what the Hell you're talking about.” OK boomer.
Good one.
I am a Boomer but I was a child in the sixties and find it tiresome being blamed for all the ills of the world based on my year of birth by those who won't take a moment to look at who was actually in charge during those turbulent years.
The late seventies - well maybe there is a point there.
That Cavett was considered somewhat highbrow is all you need to know about that time; that there's nothing remotely as intelligent on commercial latenight now says a lot about ours.
I also doubt that Lee Marvin--an actor, FFS--was particularly put off by Capote's queerness as such. His narcissistic prissy drawl, now . . .
Most beautiful French actresses strike me as more French than beautiful. YMMV (and I don't know her work any better than I know Capote's, which is to say not well).
If I take the phrase "pre-Johnny Carson '60s talk show" strictly literally, the oldest Boomer in the audience would have been 15. So I stand corrected, and my point stays the same. Read it again.
Watched Cavett back in the day and liked him, but when I see his old shows now, I realize he was kind of a pissant. On the plus side, he wrote for Jack Paar, the best of all of 'em.
A biographer might be able to correlate this with what Capote was going through at the time in his own life. You can also see a glimmer of the malice Truman had towards the rich women who took him up, an animus that would cause him much trouble when Answered Prayers came out.
Capote may have taken Moreau's film roles as representative of her personality. She did seem quite cold in Jules and Jim. Moreau played complicated women who were differed from women in the American movies Capote may have grown up with. Of course it's possible that the directors saw something that was in her and cast her accordingly. She did have a lot of different relationships of different sorts without publicly suffering over their ending.
And yes, it was a more literate era. You can also see the clip of Capote and Groucho Marx on Cavett. People don't talk or listen like that on television today. I didn't read anything into Marvin's expression. It just seemed like he was listening.
I thought that Capote was skewering Moreau as ruthless and cold when it came to her romances, and he got her to admit that it was at least partly true. Funny though, the takes here on Marvin's calm gaze throughout: It didn't occur to me to assume he was thinking about Capote's poofery. I don't think that would have bothered him much, as much as he had already seen in life, and in Hollywood by that time. I was thinking of him as a combat Marine, getting shot up, and then here, as a star, sitting in this crowd - a complete outsider, a loner. He'd come further than any of them. It's too bad he drank himself down.
Capote came across as a poof but haven't I read somewhere that he was more of an omnisexual? He was certainly meticulous as a conversationalist, sometimes excruciatingly pedantic. But I wouldn't doubt that what he said about Hemingway and his own experiences with the ladies on safari.
I watched a few segments of the JP-PM convo. I can't watch either of those fellows for very long, even though I am more or less in agreement with their opinions as I understand them.
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41 comments:
Capote always used more words than he needed.
While everybody is struggling to express themselves with words and feelings, Lee Marvin just sits there, looking, not saying a word. And everybody knows exactly what he is thinking.
To borrow a tik-tok generation phrase for someone who pulls out a pre-Johnny Carson 60's talk show clip to support an argument made in present-day 21st century context about television,
"Tell me you're a boomer without telling me you're a boomer."
Or the shorter version:
"Okay, boomer."
This is kind of a sad post; it undermines the blog's otherwise consistently sound judgment (even where tastes (ahem... Bob Dylan) differ). Nice clip, though; it reminds of when TV talk shows still had a few that reasonably intelligent people could actually enjoy. As you've noted, however, that's not been the case for several decades.
I can't be the only one who wanted to hear Lee Marvin's backstage reaction to the entire exchange, can I?
RideSpaceMountain: "Capote always used more words than he needed."
Capote would, without being malicious or sarcastic in the slightest, nor being aggrieved or proceeding with an unearned sense of entitlement, and with full understanding that RideSpaceMountain was not intending to be accusatory in an out of line or mocking way,....
.....disagree.
She should have asked "Would you please repeat the question?"
Lee Marvin's face at 4:12.
70s TV had some great interviews. John Lennon guest hosting on Mike Douglas. Cavette with all kinds of mixed panels.
Here's Woody Allen interviewing Rev. Bill Graham:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofC7vynif2o
Both were quite charming. (Think I might have seen that on this blog.)
This deserves a "men in shorts" tag. Look... listen to me. Are the ladies different? I post therefore I am.
Best part: The thinly-veiled, sustained glare of disgust on Lee Marvin's face as he beholds the unbelievably poofy performance going on across the table from him.
Interesting question that Capote our to Moreau. Is he implying she's a heartless bitch?
When I was growing up, men's treatment of my mother was so harsh, and my brothers so predatory, that I thought XYs had no feelings at all.
Who knew.
Google youtube(D) censors a lot of content that reflects badly on Democrats and the democrat narrative.
"Tell me you're a boomer without telling me you're a boomer."
None of the people in the clip are "boomers" and in a "pre-Johnnny Carson 60's talk show clip" the oldest "boomer" in the audience would have been 7 years old.
You don't seen to know what the Hell you're talking about.
Lee Marvin is thinking listening this navel gazing drivel is worse than being shot during the Battle of Saipan.
His comments on Hemingway were interesting. I think he's talking about "Islands in the Stream" and yes, he's right the first third is every good. I like the last part too, but wouldn't expect Capote to. And yes, the middle third is a disaster.
Thank God Mrs Hemingway did NOT listen to capote, since I liked reading it, and even 2nd rate hemingway is better than 1st rate almost anyone else.
Watching some of Cavett's shows on DVD is a real trip. He's witty without being funny. His opening monologues are painful. His interviews are hit and miss, if he has someone he's simpatico with, they're very good, if he doesn't click with them, they're awful. His one with Bob Mitchum for example.
I find it fascinating when I watch these old shows. People actually listened. Capote is not an easy listen.
I find it fascinating when I watch these old shows. People actually listened. Capote is not an easy listen.
Unknown: "Lee Marvin's face at 4:12."
Not surprising, given Lee Marvin's background (from wiki):
"Marvin enlisted in the United States Marine Corps on August 12, 1942. Before finishing School of Infantry, he was an quartermaster.
Lee served in the 4th Marine Division as a scout sniper in the Pacific Theater during World War II,[6] including assaults on Eniwetok and Saipan-Tinian.
While serving as a member of "I" Company, 3rd Battalion, 24th Marines, 4th Marine Division, Lee participated in 21 Japanese islands landings and was wounded in action on June 18, 1944, during the assault on Mount Tapochau in the Battle of Saipan, during which most of his company were casualties. He was hit by machine gun fire, which severed his sciatic nerve, and then was hit again in the foot by a sniper. After over a year of medical treatment in naval hospitals, Marvin was given a medical discharge with the rank of private first class. He previously held the rank of corporal, but had been demoted for troublemaking."
Of course, according to our New Soviet Democraticals led by Dementia Joe, all that makes Lee Marvin only about 10% of the "hero" that Beau Biden was before Beau was torn from us during "heavy combat in Iraq".
"Is he implying she's a heartless bitch?"
Or, with a slight variation, that beautiful women can afford to be heartless?
Saw this last week on TV.
Truman would be a tough choice for a road trip.
Jeanne Moreau had a beautiful mouth.
At least Lee got to smoke during Truman's struggle to explain heart-break.
Rabel said: “You don't seen to know what the Hell you're talking about.”
OK boomer.
The Picture of Little T.C. in a Prospect of Flowers
See with what simplicity
This nymph begins her golden days!
In the green grass she loves to lie,
And there with her fair aspect tames
The wilder flowers, and gives them names;
But only with the roses plays,
And them does tell
What colour best becomes them, and what smell.
Who can foretell for what high cause
This darling of the gods was born?
Yet this is she whose chaster laws
The wanton Love shall one day fear,
And, under her command severe,
See his bow broke and ensigns torn.
Happy who can
Appease this virtuous enemy of man!
O then let me in time compound
And parley with those conquering eyes,
Ere they have tried their force to wound;
Ere with their glancing wheels they drive
In triumph over hearts that strive,
And them that yield but more despise:
Let me be laid,
Where I may see the glories from some shade.
Meantime, whilst every verdant thing
Itself does at thy beauty charm,
Reform the errors of the Spring;
Make that the tulips may have share
Of sweetness, seeing they are fair,
And roses of their thorns disarm;
But most procure
That violets may a longer age endure.
But O, young beauty of the woods,
Whom Nature courts with fruits and flowers,
Gather the flowers, but spare the buds;
Lest Flora, angry at thy crime
To kill her infants in their prime,
Do quickly make th' example yours;
And ere we see,
Nip in the blossom all our hopes and thee.
--Thomas Marvell
The more fascinating part was toward the end when Capote strongly implied that Hemingway was Gay, or at least bisexual.
Lee Marvin was an actor. He wasn't, in real life, the goon he frequently played in movies. The notion that he would have been "disgusted" by Truman Capote's "poofiness" is cruder than most things that goon-character might have come out with.
And no, everyone doesn't know exactly what Lee Marvin is thinking as he listens silently to another guest's conversation.
The clip is from 1970, so the oldest Boomer in the original audience would have been 24, not 7! But this is beside the point, because the "Tell me you're a Boomer" snark was directed at Althouse.
If I understand the comment correctly, it means Althouse confusedly thinks a TV show from that era can be relevantly contrasted to what we see or don't see on TV now. She supposedly thinks today's TV can be measured against the former kind.
I think so too.
The commenter seems to think we don't hear intelligent, civilized conversation on TV now because it doesn't exist any more. Because if it existed it would be on TV, right? Who's really naive?
Oh, and I don't think Capote ever did completely formulate the question he was struggling for. Valiant effort though.
Lee Marvin's face at 4:12.
Yeah, that's Lee Marvin's face in every movie he ever made.
That's resting Lee Marvin face.
Here he is winning the Oscar.
Ford gave him some work in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance and Donavan's Reef. From there he went to The Killers (better than the original, in my opinion, and Ronald Reagan is awesome as a bad guy).
Really enjoyed The Professionals, The Dirty Dozen and Point Blank.
And if you haven't seen The Big Heat, you really ought to check it out.
"The clip is from 1970, so the oldest Boomer in the original audience would have been 24, not 7!"
Read it again.
Eva Marie said...
Rabel said: “You don't seen to know what the Hell you're talking about.”
OK boomer.
Good one.
I am a Boomer but I was a child in the sixties and find it tiresome being blamed for all the ills of the world based on my year of birth by those who won't take a moment to look at who was actually in charge during those turbulent years.
The late seventies - well maybe there is a point there.
That Cavett was considered somewhat highbrow is all you need to know about that time; that there's nothing remotely as intelligent on commercial latenight now says a lot about ours.
I also doubt that Lee Marvin--an actor, FFS--was particularly put off by Capote's queerness as such. His narcissistic prissy drawl, now . . .
Most beautiful French actresses strike me as more French than beautiful. YMMV (and I don't know her work any better than I know Capote's, which is to say not well).
Capote was long winded and insufferable in this clip.
Cavett was derelict in his host duties.
What would Joe Rogan have done?
This does not inspire nostalgia.
Not everything is worse now.
Just almost everything.
Read it again
Okay, and?
If I take the phrase "pre-Johnny Carson '60s talk show" strictly literally, the oldest Boomer in the audience would have been 15. So I stand corrected, and my point stays the same. Read it again.
I finally watched Donovan's Reef the other week. Lee Marvin quickly traveled a great distance in his acting in the sixties.
"Read it again."
Hey, I'm an old boomer. Make some allowance.
Watched Cavett back in the day and liked him, but when I see his old shows now, I realize he was kind of a pissant. On the plus side, he wrote for Jack Paar, the best of all of 'em.
And of course, Carson was delightful.
A biographer might be able to correlate this with what Capote was going through at the time in his own life. You can also see a glimmer of the malice Truman had towards the rich women who took him up, an animus that would cause him much trouble when Answered Prayers came out.
Capote may have taken Moreau's film roles as representative of her personality. She did seem quite cold in Jules and Jim. Moreau played complicated women who were differed from women in the American movies Capote may have grown up with. Of course it's possible that the directors saw something that was in her and cast her accordingly. She did have a lot of different relationships of different sorts without publicly suffering over their ending.
And yes, it was a more literate era. You can also see the clip of Capote and Groucho Marx on Cavett. People don't talk or listen like that on television today. I didn't read anything into Marvin's expression. It just seemed like he was listening.
I thought that Capote was skewering Moreau as ruthless and cold when it came to her romances, and he got her to admit that it was at least partly true. Funny though, the takes here on Marvin's calm gaze throughout: It didn't occur to me to assume he was thinking about Capote's poofery. I don't think that would have bothered him much, as much as he had already seen in life, and in Hollywood by that time. I was thinking of him as a combat Marine, getting shot up, and then here, as a star, sitting in this crowd - a complete outsider, a loner. He'd come further than any of them. It's too bad he drank himself down.
Capote came across as a poof but haven't I read somewhere that he was more of an omnisexual? He was certainly meticulous as a conversationalist, sometimes excruciatingly pedantic. But I wouldn't doubt that what he said about Hemingway and his own experiences with the ladies on safari.
I watched the entire Peterson-Morgan conversation. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
I watched a few segments of the JP-PM convo. I can't watch either of those fellows for very long, even though I am more or less in agreement with their opinions as I understand them.
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