October 24, 2022
"A group of 30 House liberals is urging President Biden to dramatically shift his strategy on the Ukraine war and pursue direct negotiations with Russia..."
"... the first time prominent members of his own party have pushed him to change his approach to Ukraine....The Democrats are specifically concerned that the United States is not engaging in regular dialogue with Russia as part of its effort to end a protracted war.... The Biden administration has been adamant that it is up to Kyiv whether and when to negotiate with Russia, arguing that Ukrainians as a free people should decide their fate.
But some Russia experts say Moscow will only negotiate with the United States, a fellow superpower. The lawmakers say that opening must be seized given the war’s spreading devastation.... The letter was signed by some of the best-known and most outspoken liberal Democrats in Congress, including Reps. Jamie Raskin (Md.), Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (N.Y.), Cori Bush (Mo.), Ro Khanna (Calif.) and Ilhan Omar (Minn.)."
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114 comments:
"The Biden administration has been adamant that it is up to Kyiv whether and when to negotiate with Russia, arguing that Ukrainians as a free people should decide their fate."
Are they really free if they are getting billions of dollars in aid?
The story is that the administration's goal is get rid of Putin. Trump's was show him respect so as to be able to work with him.
If Ilhan Omar supports it you can be pretty sure it's a bad idea.
What leverage do we have with Putin? I mean, besides selling out Ukraine?
Just a meaningless "Please, please, pretty please" letter. Gosh, it sure would be nice if you could negotiate Mr. President, but if you can't, well we understand.
In conclusion, we urge you to make vigorous diplomatic efforts in support of a negotiated settlement and ceasefire, engage in direct talks with Russia, explore prospects for a new European security arrangement acceptable to all parties that will allow for a sovereign andindependent Ukraine, and, in coordination with our Ukrainian partners, seek a rapid end to the conflict and reiterate this goal as America’s chief priority
And
For this reason, we urge you to pair the military and economic support the United States has provided to Ukraine with a proactive diplomatic push,redoubling efforts to seek a realistic framework for a ceasefire. This is consistent with your recognition that “there’s going to have to be a negotiated settlement here,” and your concern that Vladimir Putin “doesn't have a way out right now, and I'm trying to figure outwhat we do about that.”
So 30 democrats who are so stupid they're not getting a cut of the action?
The US and its western allies are trapped: if they abandon Ukraine then it likely has huge repercussions for relationships with Poland and the Baltic states, as they will conclude that NATO isn't willing to bear the cost of opposing Russian aggression.
Russia was in Crimea and logically aided Crimeans by election. She was late to join Donbas, where the Slavic Spring was eight years in progress.
Justice for Afghans?
Perhaps a Flint Justice Act, too.
On what basis does the WaPo opine that Russia is a “super power”? GDP, population, military capability?
And boy the number of dim bulbs defined as D luminaries is pretty much disqualifying.
The USA should tell Russia we will support a United Nations resolution of the border dispute.
Such a UN resolution will include a re-drawing of the border if a super-majority (2/3 or 3/4) of the relevant residents vote to re-draw the border.
The UN resolution will also include a fact-finding about the border-area fighting that followed the expulsion of Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukevych from his elected position in 2014.
This UN resolution of the border dispute will be kept separate from controversies about the Russian invasion of Ukraine since February 2022.
This UN resolution of the border dispute will be kept separate also from controversies about Crimea joining Russia in 2014.
If the current border dispute is resolved, then it's likely that Russia will withdraw from all other parts of Ukraine.
Right now, Russia might agree to a US resolution that is limited to the border disputes in the east and south-east parts of Ukraine, where the population is mostly ethnic Russian.
Sure, let the Ukrainian government negotiate directly with the Russian government, but also let them know that they don't have a "blank check" to get support from us no matter what they do. And keep the back channels open to Russia.
Oh wow! If "some of the best-known and most outspoken liberal Democrats in Congress, including Reps. Jamie Raskin (Md.), Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (N.Y.), Cori Bush (Mo.), Ro Khanna (Calif.) and Ilhan Omar (Minn.)" think the US should make nice with Putin over Ukraine, well f*ck democracy, let's go!
I mostly agree with Biden on this. The negotiation needs to be between Ukraine and Russia, maybe with the EU standing as a third-party broker. The US doesn't need to be involved. However, Biden could act in a manner that doesn't encourage the war, and I haven't seen him do so.
JFC, we are supplying Ukraine with all the weapons, of course we decide when the war ends and on what terms.
Finally.
Good Heavens! Has common sense infected these people? Maybe it's that new flu strain that's going around.
What are they going to negotiate? Does the USA have something at stake here?
Ukraine's people may remember when Britain and Germany sat down to negotiate Czecho's fate.
The representatives heard from the voters back home. A war with Russia could only make sense in a mind that's not all there.
The letter simply says that the administration should talk to the Russians. I agree with them!!!
But that's hardly a dramatic shift in strategy. They offer no reason why this would change anything.
Also, Mark Pocan - representin'
As a general proposition anything supported by AOC and her "Squad" is probably a mistake.
I guess I'm a liberal now. The American support for Ukraine is nuts. I know and taught and love the Ukrainian people but I know and taught and love the Russian people as well. Untangling those two cultures would be akin to untangling England and Scotland.
I'm trying to remember one time in American history that Russia did something bad to us outside of the Cuban missile crisis and the propaganda of the post-war era. I'm getting nothing.
But I must say, it's pretty rich watching these "progressives" all of whom voted for every Ukrainian demand ever, who traveled there and took selfies with Zelinskyy, now decide they're against the war.
How about this peace agreement: Russia withdraws from all occupied Ukraine land including Crimea. Russia agrees to fully compensate Ukraine citizens for its unlawful and immoral actions. Russia agrees to rebuild Ukraine. Russia withdraws its opposition to Ukraine joining NATO. I almost forgot - Putin will be tried for war crimes.
I'm sure Russia will go for it.
These people sure are in a hurry to start WW tres.
Our usual suspects are a violent, irresponsible group of children.
best-known and most outspoken liberal Democrats in Congress, including Reps. Jamie Raskin (Md.), Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (N.Y.), Cori Bush (Mo.), Ro Khanna (Calif.) and Ilhan Omar (Minn.)."
Well gee, with that brain trust behind you...
Ok let's all agree that moving biden's position is not anything. The fucker is a potted plant. He makes no policy decisions. Whoever is making the calls will decide. That said they've been covering his corrupt ass for years. I doubt they're excited about the change.
I think at this point he doesn't decide vanilla or chocolate ice cream they just say vanilla.
"I'm trying to remember one time in American history that Russia did something bad to us outside of the Cuban missile crisis and the propaganda of the post-war era."
Wow.
"... if they abandon Ukraine then it likely has huge repercussions for relationships with Poland and the Baltic states, as they will conclude that NATO isn't willing to bear the cost of opposing Russian aggression."
Opposing is one thing. Inciting is another.
"Russia withdraws from all occupied Ukraine land including Crimea. "
You do know that Ukraine annexed Crimea in 1995 by voting to "nullify" their constitution and sending soldiers to arrest their leaders, and Russia took it back in 2014 without firing a shot, right?
You do know that since the civil war started in 2014, Ukraine has not been able to establish control over the disputed regions, and basically, we are sending the ethnic Ukrainians weapons to win a civil war that is none of our business. If Ukraine can't establish control in eight years, perhaps the land is not really theirs.
This seems like a problem that will fix itself in a couple of weeks.
How many of these people are just waking up to the reality that Pelosi has sacrificed them for the Democrats' agenda?
I predict that England and Scotland will be untangled.
Bugger off, appeasers.
Bad sign for Dems. AOC was at UC Irvine yesterday to lead a midterms rally. Attendance of a thousand or so. Reportedly. I didn't know about it until news today. If Dems cannot draw more with one of their rock stars on a university campus, I worry for turnout.
The problem is that in this region, all military victories ,and all negotiated peaces, will only be temporary. As soon as there is a sign of weakness, the war machine will rev up again.
Putin wants to incorporate Ukraine into Russia. In fact he wants to reconstitute the Soviet Union as his next act.
If the list of "prominent members" were doing the negotiating, they'd give him everything he wants and the only question would be whether they'd throw in Poland and the Czech Republic.
Republican lawmakers, don't try this! You'll end up arrested for high treason. As with election denial, it's different when Ds do it.
"The negotiation needs to be between Ukraine and Russia"
Wars don't end until one side or the other runs out of munitions or people to fight. This war is on Russia's border and Russia is a far larger country. Russia will not run out of munitions or people first. People here seem to think that Russia can't make missiles without western chips, but Russia can make the chips required for all of their weapons systems, and does.
Basically giving Ukraine unlimited weapons as long as they provide the cannon fodder, for their leaders' dream of occupying territory that they have been unable to win on their own, in a war that Russia sees as existential, is just plain evil.
Russia only wants to have direct negotiations with the US for two reasons:
1. It legitimizes Putin's batshit crazy claimed basis for this war - the the US lead Ukraine down the path to hedonism. Putin needs a resolution with the US instead of Ukraine to prove that he was right. That Ukraine is simply a puppet of the US. We should not give him that. It will only strengthen him.
2. Because he believes the US will give him portions of Ukraine in the deal that his military is not strong enough to take or to keep.
Let's not forget that Russia is a signatory to the Budapest Memorandum. That international agreement was pretty clear:
1. Ukraine agrees to give up the nuclear arsonal it inherited at the collapse of the USSR.
2. Russia, the United States and the U.K all agreed to ensure Ukraine's territorial integrity at the 1991 borders. That means Crimea stays in Ukraine.
Russia has violated that agreement by:
1. sending irregular troops into the Donbass per-2014
2. annexing Crimea in 2014
3. Invading Ukraine last February
4. claiming the annexation of Kherson, Luhansk, Donetsk, and Zaporizhzhia
Why does anyone think there is a deal on this planet that Putin would actually abide by?
"On what basis does the WaPo opine that Russia is a “super power”"
6,000 nukes with all manner of delivery systems including nuclear powered torpedoes with atomic warheads that can be launched from anywhere, you know, like the South Pacific or under the Arctic ice cap, and still end up in US harbors, oh yeah, and hypersonic missiles.
What happened to the Peace Movement? Did it morph into the AGW movement?
The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact was a non-aggression pact between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union that enabled those powers to partition Poland between them. - Wikipedia
A significant part of Ukraine was taken from Poland in the Hitler-Stalin Pact. Ukraine is a fake country cobbled together by the Soviet Union and destined for civil war. It's none of our business. We should stop pouring gasoline on the flames.
I suppose it's theoretically possible that they could be right about something....I'm confused about most of this and marvel at those who can see the one clear path towards world peace.....Finland had some pretty good innings against Russia, but Russia eventually prevailed. Maybe Russia will continue the war and win it. Maybe Ukraine will continue the war and Putin will be forced out of office. I don't know....I'm rooting for Ukraine, but if the war continues more people will die and probably the ending will not be the ending that either side wants and might end up being WWI level disastrous for everyone on earth.
Russia might not be the superpower that the Soviet Union was but with 6,000 nuclear weapons at hand, it cannot be dismissed lightly. Apparently these Democrats are finally realizing that the puppet-masters in the White House are really keen on going to war with Russia, with the the possibility of those nukes being unleashed steadily increasing. I guess they're not really thrilled with that prospect, eh?
Instead of a strongly worded letter they ought to threaten to cut off Joe's supply of ice cream. That would really get his attention!
"of course we decide when the war ends and on what terms."
You think if we stop supporting Ukraine that Putin will just say: "OK. Don't worry. Be happy. Here's plenty of oil at affordable prices." Putin will simply know what nerve to press when he wants something from Europe and the US. Stop thinking we can get away if we're cowardly enough. Putin wants his Empire back and we've said: no. We have a wolf by the ears and we can only go to victory in Ukraine or defeat in the West.
So it's the far left House democrats who are the Russian assets after all...
who would have guessed!
These idiots either have forgotten or never paid attention to what happened in February of this year!
Russia invaded Ukraine.
Biden offered Zelensky a ride.
Zelensky said, "I don't want a ride, I want ammo."
Biden said, "C'mon man, I don't want to get involved in a war with Russia."
Zelensky said, "Give me ammo or I'll spell the beans on Hunter."
Biden said, "How much ammo do you want?"
Zelensky said, "This much."
And here we are, and here we are stuck.
The Biden administration has been adamant that it is up to Kyiv whether and when to negotiate with Russia, arguing that Ukrainians as a free people should decide their fate."
a serious question.. even Stipulating that the Ukrainians a Super heroic..
How many minutes would they last against the russians without
American Aid
American Arms
American Intelligence
and American Money
This is NOT their war.. It is OURS. It might well be, that we're fighting it for a good cause, but WE are fighting it.. They're not even our proxies, they are are pawns
Blogger jim5301 said...
If Ilhan Omar supports it you can be pretty sure it's a bad idea.
can anyone think of ANY other thing that Ilhan has supported, that jim5301 has called a 'bad idea'??
Any One?
Time to send in the CIA, FBI, HSA, Swat Teams at night and appoint a Special Prosecutor to arrest all these guys and flip their advisers to get evidence they are Russian agents committing Treason. And we can use “Lying to the FBI” and Obstruction of Justice if they say they are not guilty.
Oh wait, these are not pro Trump guys. Forget it. Or maybe we can loose it on Tulsi Gabbard.
Biden is too stupid to do the Chamberlain Betrayal, Mark II.
to repeat these 30 congress criter progressives are not "against the war". This is CYA. They've been getting flak from the relatively small number of liberal/leftist who are actually against war, and don't want WW III. This letter is an attempt to appease their base voters. But when push comes to shove, they will fall in line and support everything Biden does.
watch, the next time a big bunch of military aid to Ukraine comes up for a vote, these 30 will make a few noises about "Gosh, shouldn't we negotiate" and then they'll vote for aid.
1) The 30 liberals must not be in on the Ukraine kick back money.
2) Maybe they're wondering why NATO needs to expand so far eastward on US taxpayer money
3) Perhaps these "environmentalists" realize nuclear power in better than nuclear war...and windmills...and solar...
Or perhaps they were visited by the ghost of John Prine. "Your Flag Decal Won't Get You Into Heaven Anymore".
Are they really free if they are getting billions of dollars in aid?
If I remember my history right, we'd be like Canada now if it weren't for French aid.
These democrats are russian agents. Just like ( yesterday ) anyone else saying the same thing.
"They say they are specifically concerned that the United States is not engaging in regular dialogue with Russia; they say, they say, they say"
And what do they do? Every time the funding bills arise, they vote for more money to be sent to the Ukraine, with no oversight, no audit, no controls. And then we read the stories about Ukrainian minister's wives being stopped at the border with suitcases bearing millions in USD $100 bills.
What 'they say' does not stack up to what they do. Too little, too late, too weak, too bad, so sad.
The far-left Dims have to give the appearance of having some issues with prosecuting a war. They are being called out by their followers for supporting and cheerleading this war.
Step One: The Russians agree to pay Ukraine reparations for the Holodomor of the 1930s, with interest.
Step Two: The Russians agree to pay reparations for the destruction to civilian infrastructure since the invasion.
Step Three: The Russians agree to return all the Ukrainians kidnapped or forcibly removed from Ukraine since the invasion.
Fair enough?
Some wars end with negotiations. Didn't we recently go through this before, thinking that it wasn't enough to just defeat Saddam militarily? We thought we had to unseat him, put him on trial and bring democracy to Iraq. What could go wrong? If Ukraine and Russia are willing to settle this with negotiations, who are we to stop them?
I’m so old I can remember when calling for peace made you a Putin stooge. Tempus fugit.
rcocean: "to repeat these 30 congress criter progressives are not "against the war". This is CYA. They've been getting flak from the relatively small number of liberal/leftist who are actually against war, and don't want WW III. This letter is an attempt to appease their base voters. But when push comes to shove, they will fall in line and support everything Biden does."
Precisely.
The "squad" is now fully controlled "opposition" against the fully lunatic far left for the establishment/dem/uniparty in the same way the GOPe is as FakeCon "opposition" for that same establishment/dem/uniparty crew.
Oh, great, the grandfather of terrible foreign policy being lobbied by the worst Congress has to offer.
There will be grift.
All those billions of dollars that Biden is sending his 90% partners over there are billions of dollars NOT going to Democrat Party interest groups here in the United States.
Democrat Party groups are leaving money on the table and allowing THEIR money to be shipped to OTHER COUNTRIES.
retail lawyer said...
"What happened to the Peace Movement? Did it morph into the AGW movement?"
The environmental movement was morphed from the peace movement by Ton Hayden. Had to find a way to keep the comrades together.
We should send Hillary! over with a big red reset button. Putin can’t resist that Clinton charm.
Was it not just a week ago that Musk said essentially the same thing and a Ukraine "diplomat" said "Fuck You?" All the fat anti Trump ex Lt. Col ethnic Ukrainian armymen screamed that Musk was bad, and that Teslas were not good.
Democrats don't just flip flop, they are shape shifters.
Lurker21 said...
Some wars end with negotiations
What is the point of negotiations and "agreements" with people who dont' honor them?
1994 Budapest Accords. Ukraine agreed to give up the nuclear weapons they had. Russia agreed to respect Ukraine's borders
If Putin isn't will to to honor that agreement, then only a complete and utter moron could believe that he's going to honor any other agreement he signs
So unless the deal is "Russia gets the fuck out of all of Ukraine, as defined by the 1994 Budapest Accords, and accepts that Ukraine will be binding itself to the West, not to Russia", there's no point in negotiating anything
Unless your goal is "Ukraine is destroyed and returned to being enslaved by Russia"
Because those are the only two stable options
"Ukraine is a fake country cobbled together by the Soviet Union and destined for civil war."
True, Stalin was Ukrainian and Khrushchev was born in Kursk. Here is a comment on the history of Ukraine from wiki.
"A chaotic period of warfare ensued after the Russian Revolutions of 1917, as well as a simultaneous war in the former Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria following the dissolution of the Habsburg monarchy after World War I. The partially-recognised Ukrainian People's Republic emerged from its own civil war of 1917–1921. The Soviet–Ukrainian War (1917–1921) followed, in which the Bolshevik Red Army established control in late 1919.[10] The Ukrainian Bolsheviks, who had defeated the national government in Kyiv, established the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, which on 30 December 1922 became one of the founding republics of the Soviet Union. Initial Soviet policy on Ukrainian language and Ukrainian culture made Ukrainian the official language of administration and schools. Policy in the 1930s turned to Russification. In 1932 and 1933, millions of people, mostly peasants, in Ukraine starved to death in a devastating famine, known as Holodomor. It is estimated that 6 to 8 million people died from hunger in the Soviet Union during this period, of whom 4 to 5 million were Ukrainians.[11] Nikita Khrushchev was appointed the head of the Ukrainian Communist Party in 1938."
Sounds like when you get the Soviet Union involved, everything turns into a dumpster fire. I am sympathetic to all poor innocent people there, and could care less about either government.
"There will be grift."
Joe and Hunter (and Mitt and Polosi's kids) are drinking Ukraine's milk shake.
Lucien said...
On what basis does the WaPo opine that Russia is a “super power”? GDP, population, military capability?]
>>>Thousands of nukes. Hundreds at least of missiles able to deliver them, some in our direction.
>>>Whether they would work or not? Dunno.
>>>All they need is one to do so.
>>>Should millions of Americans die for a country that has been under Russian rule, or in its "sphere of influence" since at least the 18th century?
>>>Or is it case that Americans should die by the millions so Hunter and Joe, and Mitt and all the other sleazy bastards out there getting Ukrainian money, should continue to get rich?
Jim Gust said...
Step One: The Russians agree to pay Ukraine reparations for the Holodomor of the 1930s, with interest.
Step Two: The Russians agree to pay reparations for the destruction to civilian infrastructure since the invasion.
Step Three: The Russians agree to return all the Ukrainians kidnapped or forcibly removed from Ukraine since the invasion.
Fair enough?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yeah, that's all gonna happen.
S N O R T
just cut Ukraine off from arms and cash spigot and let them negotiate what they can.
how many Ukraine0Americans does it take to fill an ice-cream cone for FJB ?
President Biden does not have an inspiring record of diplomatic success. I doubt that Putin will be swayed by him.
So, Kyev is responsible for the Holodomor.
Kyev is responsible for the destruction of civilian infrastructure, which prompted the vote in Crimea, and eight years of war by a military-paramilitary axis aligned with Kiev targeting half of Ukrainians disenfranchised by the violent coup.
Kyev is responsible for the abduction and abortion of Ukrainians... uh, Russian-Ukrainians... Russians since the inception of the Slavic Spring in the World War Spring (WWS) series.
They should return to their founding in Kiev before transnational socialization forced their modern progress. China, too, preceding Maoist social progress of millions. America, too, preceding the sanction of one-child, albeit through shared/shifted responsibility, of tens of millions over several decades in progress. One step forward, two steps backward.
Joe and Hunter (and Mitt and Polosi's kids) are drinking Ukraine's milk shake.
Planned Pariahood (PP) of people, places, and resources is not limited to babies and grannies.
Maybe this reaction is one of two things;
1) some in the D party realizing that the national security establishment has taken control of the country, which includes them, and some D’s don’t like it
2) polls are pointing in the direction of disengagement
Or both. Either way this is another datapoint that shows the eventual removal of Biden post election. This is a very public rebuke.
Direct negotiation over what? How about we set up a military war crimes trial and start the process of convicting Putin and his military for their genocidal murders.
Jim Gust said...
Step One: The Russians agree to pay Ukraine reparations for the Holodomor of the 1930s, with interest.
Step Two: The Russians agree to pay reparations for the destruction to civilian infrastructure since the invasion.
Step Three: The Russians agree to return all the Ukrainians kidnapped or forcibly removed from Ukraine since the invasion.
Fair enough?
Step Four: Kyiv pays restitution to all the families in Eastern Ukraine for the people that their fascist paramilitaries have killed since the 2014 coup.
Step Five: Kyiv opens the books and tells American taxpayers how many billions they have laundered and which shitheads in DC got the money.
Step Six: Kyiv and Russia both agree to allow the UN to oversee elections in every eastern province of Ukraine where they vote whether or not to stay in the Ukraine. (Hint: They all want to leave Ukraine because Kyiv has been murdering them for the last 10 years.)
mikee said...
Direct negotiation over what? How about we set up a military war crimes trial and start the process of convicting Putin and his military for their genocidal murders.
Every military in the world has done this.
I participated in two wars personally that were genocidal by the reckoning of the people I helped kill/killed.
All you warmongers who are trying to make this a morality fable need to wake up and pull the strawberry ice cream machine out of your ass.
Your shit stinks. And most of you are warmongering from your couch. You are not cool or tough.
We are supporting Nazi shitheads that have been murdering civilians since the 2014 Coup we supported.
90% of the people in Crimea and the Eastern part of Ukraine hate the United States because we are supporting the people that have been murdering them and we overthrew their lawfully elected leader.
"Their (the 30) immediate capitulation is so embarrassing and depressing at this point it would have been better if they’d never published the letter at all."
It was all for show from the beginning.
mikee: "Direct negotiation over what? How about we set up a military war crimes trial and start the process of convicting Putin and his military for their genocidal murders."
Ok. Go ahead. You start.
And remember, about 3/4 of the world believes that should happen to the US as well.
Meanwhile, the ChiComs remain the ONLY true existential threat to the US (outside of the russkis 1300 nukes) and they continue their march forward.....and we do nothing to orient ourselves to that primary threat axis.
Precisely as planned by our "betters" who only want us looking at Ukraine.
The Democratic left is aligned with the isolationist right? Look at my shocked face.
Andre Carson, Indiana, selected a font for electronic signature.
My first question to all those who think negotiations are foolish is: How do you see the Russian incursion into Ukraine ending? My second is: Do you seriously believe that Russia with a population three times that of Ukraine and nuclear weapons can't defeat Ukraine in a protracted contest? I do not see any way that we can end the killing in Ukraine without, at least, attempting to negotiate with Russia. It pains me to agree with the "squad' so I'll agree with Tim that we are headed to a denouement that neither we, our allies, or the Ukrainians are going to like if we don't make a serious attempt to end the fighting. Forget the finger pointing and think about the conduct of the war itself. The Ukrainian people have done well and they have been able to re-establish reasonable boundaries - and may continue to advance which indicates to me that this is a good opportunity to see if we can affect some kind of cease fire and border fix. Putin seems willing to fight to the last Ukrainian regardless of how poorly his troops perform. I don't think we, also, should be ready to fight to the last Ukrainian. Winter is coming and things can only get worse for the civilians.
Douglas B. Levene: "The Democratic left is aligned with the isolationist right? Look at my shocked face."
Another in a long line of typically dumb Levene remarks.
The ChiComs are the true threat, but the ChiComs have successfully purchased the US establishment and that establishment does not want a ChiCom focused strategy, particularly across all competitive dimensions: military, economic, foreign policy, strategic relationships, etc.
Levene simply parrots whatever the house organs dictate. What is notable is the David Brooks/Max Boot-like smug pride Levene exhibits as he does it.
Wow, letter just withdrawn. Supposedly drafted months ago and released without proper review. How to piss off all sides?
"If Putin isn't will to to honor that agreement, then only a complete and utter moron could believe that he's going to honor any other agreement he signs"
Internal pressure may cause him to change course. Gorbachev was destined to be assassinated but Yeltsin took the heat off him by becoming a bigger pain to the Soviets than Mikhail.
My theory is that Putin will soon (within 2 years) succumb to cancer (I was suspended from Twitter for a week for saying this) and this is his rather ill-conceived and ill-executed 'legacy move.'
He's not uber-popular in his homeland which is why many draft-age men were trying to skedaddle before being conscripted.
Ukraine is hopelessly corrupt and quasi-authoritarian at this point. All of its footsy with the West has come home to roost as Putin said it would. I root for them since, yes, they are the invadees but they are not pure as the driven snow.
For these Dems, the writing is on the wall that continued support of this conflict (and inching closer to actual US involvement) doesn't poll too well. Hence, the "at least we did something" letter.
It's telling that @Drago doesn't even attempt to refute what I said. Ad hominem is not an argument.
Achilles said...
Step Four: Kyiv pays restitution to all the families in Eastern Ukraine for the people that their fascist paramilitaries have killed since the 2014 coup.
By "2014 coup", you mean the part where Russia invaded those areas in 2014, right?
because I've pointed out multiple times that your'e completely lying about what happened in 2014, and every time I do you run away in terror
Step Six: Kyiv and Russia both agree to allow the UN to oversee elections in every eastern province of Ukraine where they vote whether or not to stay in the Ukraine. (Hint: They all want to leave Ukraine because Kyiv has been murdering them for the last 10 years.)
1: The Budapest Accords determined that those places are all part of Ukraine. So that question is already settled
2: Russia has been driving out and murdering people from those areas for the last 8+ years, ever since their invasion which, as a Putin puppet, you apparently whole-heartedly support.
So the "Achilles solution" is "Putin invades. Carries out ethnic cleansing. Then hosts an election among the people they allowed to stay, asking if they'd like to be part of Russia."
You really are a sick and twisted monster.
Putin's puppet tried to overthrow the Ukrainian government, which is to say the Parliament, 70% of which voted for closer ties with the West.
His overthrow attempt failed, so he bugged out and Russia invaded.
How much of a pathetically wretched Putin stooge do you have to be to pretend that the Ukrainians are the "bad guys" in this situation?
Known Unknown said...
Ukraine is hopelessly corrupt and quasi-authoritarian at this point. All of its footsy with the West has come home to roost as Putin said it would. I root for them since, yes, they are the invadees but they are not pure as the driven snow.
They are less corrupt and less authoritarian that Russia. If they'd "played footsie" with Russia instead of the West, the main difference would be that they'd be more corrupt and more authoritarian.
No one, anywhere in the world, is "pure as the driven snow." So the claim that Ukraine isn't is pointlessly stupid.
Putin walking away with ANY part of Ukraine owned by Russia is "Putin wins." If you think the results of "Putin wins" will be less instability and less war, you are sadly ignorant of history
minnesota farm guy said...
My first question to all those who think negotiations are foolish is: How do you see the Russian incursion into Ukraine ending?
Complete and total Russian defeat. All of Ukraine returned to Ukraine, no more Russia solders there
My second is: Do you seriously believe that Russia with a population three times that of Ukraine and nuclear weapons can't defeat Ukraine in a protracted contest?
They lost in Afghanistan, We lost in Afghanistan. We lost in Vietname.
No, I do not believe either their population difference or their possession of nukes will enable them to achieve victory, without massive support froth traitor Corus here in America.
Looking at you, Tim, Drago, and Achilles.
Putin's Russia is an enemy of the US. Ukraine is not.
Anyone who wants Putin to win is an America hating traitor
Douglas B. Levene: "It's telling that @Drago doesn't even attempt to refute what I said. Ad hominem is not an argument."
The refutation is in the response.
An isolationist would not want an aggressive across the board engagement of the ChiComs.
But I can see how even mentioning the ChiComs makes you uncomfortable. Probably for all the usual reasons.
Greg: "Putin's Russia is an enemy of the US. Ukraine is not.
Anyone who wants Putin to win is an America hating traitor"
Oh, that's right. I had forgotten how you and one of the "mikes" here at Althouse had decided I was a traitor for wanting to focus all of our attention on our primary geo-political/military competitor, the ChiComs and that, because of that, you and which ever "mike" it was decided that I was too cowardly to have served my country, though for some odd reason I had, for over 20 years.
At first I thought it was parody, but then I also remembered Greggy had explicitly stated that stopping Putin was worth the life of every man, woman and child in the US.
Literally.
But then again, that's precisely what I've come to expect from the ChiCom Amen-corner of the GOPe-ers. Gotta keep the forever war grift going and at all costs, keep the focus of the beloved ChiComs.
At. All. Costs.
Greg The Class Traitor said...
Achilles said...
Step Four: Kyiv pays restitution to all the families in Eastern Ukraine for the people that their fascist paramilitaries have killed since the 2014 coup.
By "2014 coup", you mean the part where Russia invaded those areas in 2014, right?
because I've pointed out multiple times that your'e completely lying about what happened in 2014, and every time I do you run away in terror
You are just a lying sack of shit.
Yanukovich was legally elected president of Ukraine. The West funded "Protests" until he was forced to flee the country.
The Provinces that Russia invaded voted for Yanukovich by over 90%.
Since Yanukovich was forced out the Kyiv political faction has sent forces like the Azov battalion to the Eastern part of Ukraine to repress the opposing ethnic party there.
You are supporting this political repression.
It is pretty funny to see a jackoff like you talking tough.
Greg The Class Traitor said...
They lost in Afghanistan, We lost in Afghanistan. We lost in Vietname.
No, I do not believe either their population difference or their possession of nukes will enable them to achieve victory, without massive support froth traitor Corus here in America.
Looking at you, Tim, Drago, and Achilles.
Putin's Russia is an enemy of the US. Ukraine is not.
Anyone who wants Putin to win is an America hating traitor
I fought for my country you piece of shit. I had buddies die.
All I see from you is talk.
Talk talk talk. Go do something about Ukraine and Russia if you think it is that important.
And you are really too stupid to even know what you are trying to say. You are ignorant of everything going on in the area.
Really you are just a dumb troll at this point.
Yeah I am looking at you too.
I should also have mentioned how the ChiCom Amen-corner of the GOPe neocons insist that we are never to speak of any sacrifices to be made in Ukraine on the part of our "very good NATO/EU allies" (/sarc).
Oh no. It has to be the US, always and forever. Well, the Germans might send a few tanks, which likely don't work (have you seen the FRG's readiness reports? What a complete and utter joke)
Yep, just keep it all on the US and we can keep sending our "deplorables" into battle at a premium markup for our betters! What a win-win-win-win for the ChiComs, EU, DeepStaters and grifters at the trough! Everyone that really matters to Team Forever War.
What's a few more trillion dollars after all? Besides, it will give the neocons very good allies, the ChiComs, a few more years to press their advantage across the globe while the US continues to not even bother securing its borders.
Here's a good website that explains how you can volunteer to fight with the Ukrainians:
https://kyivindependent.com/national/want-to-help-ukraines-military-as-a-foreigner-heres-what-you-can-do
Looking at you Greg, Douglas Levene, et al.
Let us know how it goes. Make it interesting. Post it as a travelogue!
The way you guys make it sound, you ought to be able to great some fantastic footage of Moscow by spring of 2023!
“Wars don't end until one side or the other runs out of munitions or people to fight. This war is on Russia's border and Russia is a far larger country. Russia will not run out of munitions or people first. People here seem to think that Russia can't make missiles without western chips, but Russia can make the chips required for all of their weapons systems, and does.”
We are already running out of munitions. Things like artillery shells. At the rate we are set to replenish our supplies, we are talking years from now. Of course, our military is understaffed, thanks to the FJB Administration’s requirement that everyone be fulled boosted with the latest version of the mRNA experimental gene therapy, that seems to be killing more than it is saving. Esp in the military, with their demographics (most 18-30 in good physical shape - which means that they are highly unlikely to die from the virus). So - since we probably don’t have the manpower to go to war, might as well give the Ukrainians our much of our reserves.
Douglas B. Levene said...
The Democratic left is aligned with the isolationist right? Look at my shocked face.
This is stupid.
We have much bigger fish to fry in South East Asia. And we just got done pulling out of Afghanistan why? So we could get in a war with a nuclear power that is really zero threat to the US?
This is just as stupid as the "You are a Putin puppet if you don't support war" people.
Slightly less mendacious though.
Really you warmongers are just ignorant and stupid people. You have to be dumber than Joe Biden to follow him into any of this.
Drago said...
Greg: "Putin's Russia is an enemy of the US. Ukraine is not.
Anyone who wants Putin to win is an America hating traitor"
Oh, that's right. I had forgotten how you and one of the "mikes" here at Althouse had decided I was a traitor for wanting to focus all of our attention on our primary geo-political/military competitor, the ChiComs
That's an amazingly stupid argument.
"We have to stop China, so we can't stop Russia, which is an ally / tool of China"? WTF?
We ARE stopping China, much to my shock. And stopping Putin.
Why someone who doesn't hate America would be upset about that, however, is left as a fantasy exercise for the readers
Achilles said...
All I see from you is talk.
Talk talk talk. Go do something about Ukraine and Russia if you think it is that important.
We ARE doing something about Ukraine and Russia, you lying sack of shit who pretends the Ukrainians are the bad guys, until your'e called on it
Doing it without dead American soldiers.
Apparently this really bothers you.
I'm not the pathetic ignoramus who claims to believe that the President of Ukraine is "the government", when it's the Parliament that is the actual government. That would be you.
Drago said...
Here's a good website that explains how you can volunteer to fight with the Ukrainians:
I'm volunteering may taxes for Ukraine. Which is all I'm calling for any other American to do
How pathetically stupid do you have to be to try the "chickenhawk" argument, in a war where the US is sending supplies, not soldiers?
Do you ever stop, look at how stupid you arguments are, and ask if maybe your'e on the wrong side?
A refresher on the history Achilles is lying about:
Achilles said...
So what about Ukraine honoring legal elections?
You mean like the Parliamentary elections that created a Parliament where 70% of the members voted to link up with the West?
Oh, let me guess, THOSE elections don't count
You are both pathetic and dishonest. Let's get some actual history, shall we?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity
In Feb 2013, "[Verkhovna Rada, the Ukrainian] Parliament passes statement on Ukraine's aspirations for European integration". Kyiv Post. 22 February 2013. "A total of 315 of the 349 MPs registered in the sitting hall supported the document on Friday. The draft document reads that the Verkhovna Rada "within its powers, will ensure that the recommendations concerning the signing of the Association Agreement between Ukraine and the EU, which are stipulated in the resolutions of the European Parliament and the conclusions of the Council of the EU approved on December 10, 2012, at a meeting of the EU foreign ministers, will be fulfilled."
Apparently the voters who elected these 315 MPs just don't matter
In November 2013, a wave of large-scale protests (known as Euromaidan) erupted in response to President Yanukovych's sudden decision not to sign a political association and free trade agreement with the European Union (EU), instead choosing closer ties to Russia and the Eurasian Economic Union.
Wow, that CIA is so powerful! They got to 70%+ of the Ukrainian Parliament, and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians, all to get them to conspire against poor old Vlad Putin.
In January and February 2014, clashes in Kyiv between protesters and Berkut special riot police resulted in the deaths of 108 protesters and 13 police officers,[20] and the wounding of many others. The first protesters were killed in fierce clashes with police on Hrushevskoho Street on 19–22 January. Following this, protesters occupied government buildings throughout the country. The deadliest clashes were on 18–20 February, which saw the most severe violence in Ukraine since it regained independence.[31] Thousands of protesters advanced towards parliament, led by activists with shields and helmets, and were fired on by police snipers.[20] On 21 February, an agreement between President Yanukovych and the leaders of the parliamentary opposition was signed that called for the formation of an interim unity government, constitutional reforms and early elections.[32] The following day, police withdrew from central Kyiv, which came under effective control of the protesters. Yanukovych fled the city.[33] That day, the Ukrainian parliament voted to remove Yanukovych from office by 328 to 0 (72.8% of the parliament's 450 members).
So, they sign a deal, Yanukovych decides he wants a different deal and bugs out, and it's all an "illegal coup" by people who have the bad taste to not want to be one of Vlad's slaves.
I'll bet dollars to donuts that if China were to launch an invasion of Taiwan tomorrow, all the people here saying how China is the real enemy and the war in Ukraine is a distraction would be saying that Taiwan is not a real interest of the US, and there's no reason for US troops to die fighting for Taiwan's freedom, and sending arms to Taiwan would just be inviting a war with China. You're not kidding anyone. You're Fortress America isolationists, Lindberg's heirs.
Douglas B. Levene said...
I'll bet dollars to donuts that if China were to launch an invasion of Taiwan tomorrow, all the people here saying how China is the real enemy and the war in Ukraine is a distraction would be saying that Taiwan is not a real interest of the US, and there's no reason for US troops to die fighting for Taiwan's freedom, and sending arms to Taiwan would just be inviting a war with China. You're not kidding anyone. You're Fortress America isolationists, Lindberg's heirs.
You would be wrong about what I actually believe. This is standard straw man bullshit.
I have said repeatedly we should just let Taiwan have nukes and be done with it.
I have also said repeatedly that it was stupid for Ukraine to give up their nukes.
Your problem is you are ignorant of the history of the area. You are also holding an untenable warmongering position and you are too much of a coward to accept what you are supporting just like Greg.
This is not a morality play. Both sides in this conflict are shitty people just like all of us are and have been.
You need to make it a morality play and you need to make the people you disagree with morally wrong. This underlines the weakness in every argument you make. You cannot deal with what has happened in the area and that you are supporting shitty people.
You have to pretend that the Ukrainian Government led by a man that has outlawed and arrested his political opposition are "democracy."
You are just as douchey as the J6 committee claiming they have to protect democracy from Trump.
Greg The Class Traitor said...
A refresher on the history Achilles is lying about:
Achilles said...
So what about Ukraine honoring legal elections?
You mean like the Parliamentary elections that created a Parliament where 70% of the members voted to link up with the West?
Oh, let me guess, THOSE elections don't count
You are both pathetic and dishonest. Let's get some actual history, shall we?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity
You can't make this up. Everyone needs to follow his link and read the story. It proves my point.
Greg just linked to a Wikipedia page that is titled "Revolution_of_Dignity" to describe a violent coup.
But it was a good violent coup because the Eastern Ukrainian party wanted to have a better trade agreement with the country right next to itRussia, and Kyiv just didn't want that.
So they ousted the president after burning down a bunch of stuff and killing a bunch of people.
Seriously. Greg thinks he is supporting "democracy" even though the current ruling regime has outlawed and arrested all political opposition.
The Kyiv faction is just as shitty as the Yanukovich faction. Deal with it.
You are supporting people who overthrew a government and sent paramilitary forces into Eastern Ukraine to kill people in the other political party.
You are just a stupid douchebag who can't even read the articles you link to and think support your position.
You are as dumb as inga.
Greg The Class Traitor said...
I'm not the pathetic ignoramus who claims to believe that the President of Ukraine is "the government", when it's the Parliament that is the actual government. That would be you.
You are a coward. You are assuming a position of moral superiority that you haven't earned and is based on false premises. You don't even read your own links.
Zelensky has arrested all political opposition. He arrested the members of parliament that disagreed with him.
I know this is tough for you. Humiliating even.
You are supporting a political coalition that has sent paramilitaries to kill their political opponents and violently overthrew a government led by their political opponents.
I think the Yanukovich regime was serving the interests of eastern Ukraine. Western Ukraine didn't like that.
I think it was a bad idea for Yanukovich to move towards Russia, but the people he represented wanted that and over 90% of those provinces supported him.
Douglas B. Levene: "I'll bet dollars to donuts that if China were to launch an invasion of Taiwan tomorrow, all the people here saying how China is the real enemy and the war in Ukraine is a distraction would be saying that Taiwan is not a real interest of the US, and there's no reason for US troops to die fighting for Taiwan's freedom, and sending arms to Taiwan would just be inviting a war with China. You're not kidding anyone."
I've made my position clear. A position that undermines your stupid narrative. So you simplly assign me another to "win the internets".
That's an admission of defeat.
But you knew that already, didnt you "old blood and guts"?
I'll bet dollars to donuts
The other day I was in the market and saw 4 donuts for sale for $5. I thought, "Guess we're gonna have to retire that old saying...!"
Zelensky has arrested all political opposition. He arrested the members of parliament that disagreed with him.
[citation needed]
Achilles said...
Greg just linked to a Wikipedia page that is titled "Revolution_of_Dignity" to describe a violent coup.
1: The violence was by Putins' stooge. FO course, once the security forces started murderign protesters, people fought back.
Amusing who you snipped out "In January and February 2014, clashes in Kyiv between protesters and Berkut special riot police resulted in the deaths of 108 protesters and 13 police officers,"
But it was a good violent coup because the Eastern Ukrainian party wanted to have a better trade agreement with the country right next to itRussia, and Kyiv just didn't want that.
Is that supposed to mean something?
Putin's stooge wanted to lock Ukraine's economy to Russia's. 70 of the Ukrainian Parliament, which is to say the Ukrainian government, wanted to cut a deal with the far larger West.
Because cutting trade deals with people who can sell you worthwhile goods is better than cutting deals with corrupt scum who will only sell you crap.
So they ousted the president after burning down a bunch of stuff and killing a bunch of people.
1: The President wasn't the head of government. The government was Parliament. Please stop showing off what an ignoramus you are
2: They didn't "oust" him, he chose to bug out after his attempts to murder protesters into submission didn't work.
Parliament didn't vote to boot him from his position until after he bugged out to Moscow.
All of which I detailed in my post. now of which you responded to.
Because your'e lying, and you know it
Seriously. Greg thinks he is supporting "democracy" even though the current ruling regime has outlawed and arrested all political opposition.
The current ruling regime is in an existential war.
Do I approve of everything they've done?
No
Are they still less corrupt, and less authoritarian, than Putin's Russia?
Yes
What is Achilles fighting for?
Getting them all enslaved by Russia, so they can become more corrupt and more authoritarian.
The Kyiv faction is just as shitty as the Yanukovich faction. Deal with it.
Unicorns poop Skittles. Deal with it.
Sorry, but I figured one meaningless claim backed by nothing deserved another
You are supporting people who overthrew a government and sent paramilitary forces into Eastern Ukraine to kill people in the other political party.
1: As I pointed out repeatedly, your'e lying about the "overthrowing a gov't" part
2: Who gives a shit. I support the American Revolution, which was not carried out by angels, and was against a far better gov't than Putin's
3: Russia invaded Eastern Ukraine after their stooge bugged out.
Ukraine fought back
For you to put the blame on Ukraine for fighting back against Russian aggression and treaty violations, rather than on Russia for invading another country, shows just how pathetic you are
You are just a stupid douchebag who can't even read the articles you link to and think support your position.
Which would explain why Achilles has no links for any of his claims, and no actual counters to any of mine
I congratulate you on your Fettermanesque performance here. First you repeatedly avoiding debate (ran away whenever I spotted about the reality of the situation), then you agreed to a debate, and completely failed.
You lose
@RMc: The last time I bought donuts was at Dunkins (chocolate glaze, the best) a few decades ago, so I guess my math is out of date.
Blogger Achilles said...
Greg The Class Traitor said...
Me: I'm not the pathetic ignoramus who claims to believe that the President of Ukraine is "the government", when it's the Parliament that is the actual government. That would be you.
You are a coward. You are assuming a position of moral superiority that you haven't earned and is based on false premises. You don't even read your own links.
Zelensky has arrested all political opposition. He arrested the members of parliament that disagreed with him.
1: you keep on claiming it, without providing the slightest proof.
2: The actions of the Ukrainian government in 2022 have absolutely no relevance to an argument about the actions of Ukrainians in 2014.
Are you a moron, or a liar? because you keep on claiming that the Revolution of Dignity was a "coup against the gov't". That happened in 2014. Zelensky had no political power then
But I suppose that when your position is total shit, you have to play dishonest games like that
You are supporting a political coalition that has sent paramilitaries to kill their political opponents and violently overthrew a government led by their political opponents.
You are a lying sack of shit who has repeatedly pretended that the Ukrainians were the aggressors , for fighting back against the Russian invasion of 2014.
If you want me to take your claims seriously (which you dont', since they're all shit), you'll state "in 20XX Ukraine did Y", with a link to back up your claim.
Or you can continue overlapping events from 2022 with 2014, a show what an utter ass you are
I think the Yanukovich regime was serving the interests of eastern Ukraine. Western Ukraine didn't like that.
no, he was serving Putin's interests.
Which is why 70%+ of the Ukrainian parliament opposed him.
I think it was a bad idea for Yanukovich to move towards Russia, but the people he represented wanted that and over 90% of those provinces supported him.
More bullshit
Feb 7 2010 Runoff:
http://electionresources.org/ua/president.php?election=2010®ion=01
Crimea: 78.2 - 17.3
Dnipropetrovsk: 62.7 - 29.1
Donetsk: 90.4 - 6.5
Zaporizhzhya: 71.5 - 22.2
Luhansk: 89.0 - 7.7
Mykolayiv: 71.5 - 23.0
Odessa: 74.1 - 19.5
Kharkiv: 71.4 - 22.4
Kherson: 60.0 - 33.7
City of Sevastopol: 84.4 - 10.4
That's every single place in Ukraine that voted for Yanukovich. 90% support in ONE place. Because you always lie
70% of Ukraine's parliament voted for closer ties with the EU. 70% of the gopv't voted for closer ties with the EU
But Achilles says we must ignore that, because it gives Putin the sadz
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