In a 24-page ruling, the judge, Aileen M. Cannon of the Federal District Court for the Southern District of Florida, also enjoined the Justice Department from using the seized materials for any “investigative purpose” connected to its ongoing inquiry of Mr. Trump until the work of the arbiter, known as a special master, was completed.
The order would effectively bar federal prosecutors from using a key piece of evidence as they continue to investigate whether the former president illegally retained national defense documents at his estate, Mar-a-Lago, or obstructed the government’s efforts to get them back.
Cannon was appointed by Trump.
Posts
127 comments:
Cannon was appointed by Trump.
===========
so while we are asked to respect DOJ / FBI
media will now harp on this : nobody rise for this judge
Let the games begin.
Its only because she was appointed by Trump that Trump had the slightest chance of winning. A Bush or Democrat Federal Judge would've ruled against him 1 hour after he filed.
I hope she lives in a maximum-security gated area.
Food fight! Food fight!
I think this is now such a total mess --procedurally and evidentiarily-- that it can be used by all sides to prove absolutely anything. Trump stole the launch codes. The FBI rooted through his old magazine file. Trump failed to return Important Stuff That We Will Define Later. No, it was launch codes, really. The whole thing was a trap by Trump to make the DOJ look stupid. The whole thing was a frame job by Merrick Garland to make Trump look evil. No: it wasn't Garland, it was Wray. No: it wasn't Wray, it was rogue agent Thibault. No: Thibault was just resigning with full benefits, the plan came from the White House. No: it was Russians, and they're laughing at us.
Etc etc etc.
There is a reason the FBI/DOJ wants to keep all of this secret.
The more the American people learn about what actually happened the more it is obvious the DOJ and the FBI are the criminals in this case.
Does Melania get her La Perla thongs back now?
I think you got her name wrong. It's "Trump appointed judge Aileen M. Cannon."
They're angry again. She's going to need protection.
Friday deadline seems unrealistic.
What "key piece of evidence"?
“The order would effectively bar federal prosecutors from using a key piece of evidence as they continue to investigate…”
It’s the NYT so I can’t read it (wouldn’t want to anyway), but do they ever say what this supposed “key piece of evidence” is? And how do they know it’s “key”?
Executive privilege seems like ared herring. What follows from it?
So it got to a real judge and now the adults take over. Surprise, surprise.
Judge Cannon is cutting her own throat within the legal profession. She has the Federal judgeship and she cannot "owe" anything to the former president who appointed her. Her rulings and actions have been outside normal rulings and instructions.
To begin with, in the poorly prepared initial filing for a Special Master, she reminded Evan Corcoran, acting as Trump's lawyer (but really a witness in the stolen document seizure) that the lawsuit had to be served to the DOJ. Then she had to remind Attorney Jim Trusty that the action Trump was pursuing was the appointment of the Special Master. She also ignored the fact that the original filing was unsworn.
She made up her mind before hearing any counter-argument and then ignored all the legal points made by DOJ, particularly the one declaring that FBI seizure action was precisely permitted by SDFL Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart. Finally, the stolen classified documents and related presidential papers belonging to the government had already been found and segregated. No Special Master has the security clearance to examine all papers, which likely means that Trump no longer had clearance to even have possessed the documents after 1/21/21.
There is more but the fact is that this is a delaying tactic, not a defensive action and Aileen Cannon knows this.
Thee government will need to demonstrate standing without the fish. NYeT. Never.
What a joke opinion. The judge actually ruled that there may be a legal basis for Trump to prevent the current administration from seeing top secret information created by federal agencies. Absurd on its face. DOJ better appeal.
Door closes a month after horse freed from barn.
"A key piece of evidence?" Would that be Melania's panties?
What is "a key piece of evidence" and how do we know it's key?
Oh right, trust the Organs and their stenographers. Always.
Checks and balances at work. I'm happy for you people
I'm not an attorney, but on all the TV shows involving lawyers, appointing a Special Master seems to be standard practice. It protects the rights of the individual, maintains the integrity of the justice system, and thus protects us all. Is it surprising that a judge would appoint a Special Master in this type of case?
How on earth do we not know exactly what law(s) the DOJ believes Trump broke?
At this point, I’m presuming trump is innocent and the DOJ is corrupt until proven otherwise.
I'm enthused that not everyone currently trusts the FBI and DOJ.
Trump calling for a Special Master will raise the racist antennas on the left.
jim5301 lets us form opinions about him, when he amusingly said...
What a joke opinion. The judge actually ruled..
That's RIGHT jim! The judge ACTUALLY made a ruling! If you understood ANYTHING about law, you'd know
That's What Judges DO!
Of course, jim thinks that the purpose of a judge, is to support the democrat party. Don't you jim?
Oh no. An honest Federal Judge. How can the pro-globalists destroy the USA if honest Federal Judges are allowed to interfere with Obama appointed Federal Judges pretending to follow the real law like actors reading a script but making up an Activist Revolutionary Law?
A corrupt judiciary cannot be counted upon to deliver Justice. It matters not one whit what some individual judge does that sets the DoJ "case" back for one news cycle. We do not live any longer in the country you think we live in.
A country where there are laws, and honest cops and an unbiased jury.
That country is dead. The Democrat Party killed it.
I'm reminded of a movie I once saw: Some judge isn't going to save Trump, or you. You are going to save you. Or you're not. It's that simple.
WOLVERINES!
‘Finally, the stolen classified documents and related presidential papers belonging to the government had already been found and segregated. No Special Master has the security clearance to examine all papers, which likely means that Trump no longer had clearance to even have possessed the documents after 1/21/21.’
Is that you, Carnac?
And the DOJ opposes someone checking their work why?
Judicial oversight over a search? Oversight that the Constitution contemplates and requires? Checks and balances?
OUTRAGEOUS! Time, I think, for the FBI/DOJ to start surveilling this judge as being a part of the conspiracy.
Seemingly Trump has a lot to hide. So this judge made a ruling that will delay things…but the Feds already know what are in the documents he stole(?). He can try to delay the investigation, he won’t be able to stop it. Eventually it will be known to Americans what Trump was up to.
"Friday deadline seems unrealistic."
"Executive privilege seems like ared herring. What follows from it?"
"What a joke opinion. The judge actually ruled that there may be a legal basis for Trump to prevent the current administration from seeing top secret information created by federal agencies. Absurd on its face. DOJ better appeal."
So, there you have the Soros talking points. Don't seem to have much connection to Althouse's post, but that's what you get with cut'n'paste trolls.
appointing a Special Master seems to be standard practice
It is certainly nothing remarkable. Except for today's Star Chamber regime.
A completely appropriate ruling. But less appropriate than an injunction ordering the FBI to screw off with this kafka case.
I'm sure the democrat FBI is upset that they won't be able to tweet out propaganda based on empty folders.
To begin with, in the poorly prepared initial filing for a Special Master, she reminded Evan Corcoran, acting as Trump's lawyer (but really a witness in the stolen document seizure) that the lawsuit had to be served to the DOJ. Then she had to remind Attorney Jim Trusty that the action Trump was pursuing was the appointment of the Special Master. She also ignored the fact that the original filing was unsworn.
Where are you licensed in law, gadfly? How many times did you take the bar ?
Integrity of the justice system? I'm afraid that ship has sailed.
Fight doosh with doosh I always say…
So, who's the special master? Lawfare submitted some doozies to Judge Cannon, unsolicited I hasten to add.
Meanwhile, there's nothing in that opinion or anywhere else that appears to prevent Trump from urging release of or releasing any or all of the documents seized.
You know Trump is hoping this drags out forever so we all will just miss him more, right?
Good for her. Of course we know the law abiding FBI will comply with her order./s
Normally, I doubt such an order would be entered. I hope she has documented the apparent multitude of irregularities with the warrant and the search.
The appointment of a special master is such an obvious move I can hardly believe that anyone opposed it. Assuming a conscientious neutral Master, we will have confidence that whatever is turned over to them will be correctly inventoried and identified. What's horrifying is that I no longer have 100% confidence that the authorities will turn over every document in its original condition.
Judge Cannon is an honors graduate of the University of Michigan law school. Guess she didn't get in at Wisconsin.
“What a joke opinion. The judge actually ruled that there may be a legal basis for Trump to prevent the current administration from seeing top secret information created by federal agencies. Absurd on its face. DOJ better appeal”
Appeal won’t help. It’s a Republican dominated Circuit, backed by a Republican dominated Supreme Court. The standard is abuse of discretion. She didn’t abuse hers. Appeals courts give trial courts wide discretion to conduct their business. She threw enough into her opinion that she won’t be overruled. For example, the Govt said “trust us we have a taint team in place”. She responded that they let privileged documents through to the investigation team. Moreover, the two teams are in the same branches in the same divisions. That means that they meet regularly at the coffee pot or water cooler, probably socialize together, etc. Too easy for something to slip out. Moreover, it’s not just important that the taint team be honest and independent - they have to appear that way to the public too, and sharing coffee pots, water coolers, and meals doesn’t help there.
She also obliquely pointed out that, so far, the only thing that they had in their claim that Trump was preventing the government from seeing top secret information, was that the FBI and DOJ asserted it. That was never the issue. The issue was never whether the government could see the claimed top secret documents, but rather Trump could have them in the first place. He was never asked to photocopy the documents and give them to the Govt, but rather they demanded that he turn over his copies to them. And, the only reason that you have for believing that those documents are still classified is that the search warrant sought documents marked classified. That may be sufficient for anyone else, but a sitting President has plenary declassification authority. That means that the mere presence of classification marks has little, if any bearing on whether the documents are still classified. That means that he can, almost literally, waive his hand, to declassify anything that he wants. These were all documents acquired while Trump was President, and had plenary declassification authority.
Seconding JeanE and reproving gadfly. Say you really, really want to prosecute Trump. Wouldn't it be better for your cause of you can be shown to respect every protection that the law provides a defendant? I mean, he's obviously guilty, right? So when the Special Master's work is done, you'll get access to everything you properly seized, and you'll have him over a barrel - absolutely legally. No room for his "drooling minions" (that might have been Howard, not gadfly - I can't remember) to whine that he didn't get a fair shake.
Hard to get good law clerks when your chambers are located in Fort Pierce, Fl.
Ironically, 'Special Master' is my pronoun...
Given that Judge Aileen Cannon was appointed by Donald Trump, my going in supposition is that she is more likely to carefully follow the law, both as written and case law, than if she had been appointed by, for instance, Barack Obama.
Hahaha! Like that'll stop the FBI. They've have more than enough time to photo/copy everything and distribute it widely.
The barn door is off it's hinges and he horses are running wild and free.
The gadfly leftists are so very very upset about this completely normal and commonplace ruling that the gadflys have reverted to more "mindreading"-based "analysis" and determination of guilt.
Reminscent of the years-long daily Inga "You Dont Know What Mueller Knows!" reports where Inga would regale all and sundry on what was really going on behind the scenes and how we would all be shocked at what was coming as The Walls Closed In and Tipping Points reached!
Imagine being a woman of color, immigrant from Columbia with a mother that fled communist Cuba , gets into Duke and then University of Michigan Law, Court of Appeals clerk ship and then the times boils that biography down to Trump appointee.
The Hopeless gadfly: "She made up her mind before hearing any counter-argument and then ignored all the legal points made by DOJ..."
I suspect there are a number of obama corrupt judges who would happily allow gadfly's Adam Schiff-like "testimony" in any legal proceeding.
"It’s the NYT so I can’t read it (wouldn’t want to anyway), but do they ever say what this supposed “key piece of evidence” is? And how do they know it’s “key”?"
And further, who at the FBI/DOJ leaked this bit of "information" to the NYT.
But of course, we'll never find that out.
My prior comment incorrectly pointed to gahrie.
It was actually gadfly.
So here it is, amended:
Gadfly treats us to his inanity:
She made up her mind before hearing any counter-argument and then ignored all the legal points made by DOJ, particularly the one declaring that FBI seizure action was precisely permitted by SDFL Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart.
>>>>The DOJ did file its objection, and the judge sided with Trump "on the merits". That's what judges do.
Finally, the stolen classified documents and related presidential papers belonging to the government had already been found and segregated.
>>>>> It is still a legal question whether any documents were stolen. It's another that Trump is claiming some documents confiscated were his personal papers and others protected by "attorney-client" privilege.
>>>>>But Gahrie somehow claims to know more than has been legally established. His ass is GENIUS!!!
No Special Master has the security clearance to examine all papers,.....
>>>>>A Special Master can be chosen among disinterested parties who do have such a clearance, and there is no legal reason why such a trusted person w/o one could be granted a special clearance to conduct his investigation. Do you think Mueller didn't get to see "secret" docs?
....which likely means that Trump no longer had clearance to even have possessed the documents after 1/21/21.
>>>>>huh? Are you really claiming that Trump lacked the power to possess his own personal papers and those covered by "attorney client privilege" when he left office? IOW that he had to have a "clearance' to possess" even those papers, the very ones which are in dispute?
Are you that addled?
Why, yes, gadfly....yes you are.
Compared to Joe and Hunter using the office of the VP to illegally obtain millions and millions of washed clean tax payer funded (and tax free!) income streams from pay-to-play sources in Ukraine and China....
some paperwork and TIME magazine covers - woooosh - so bad.
Compared to Joe and Hunter using the office of the VP to illegally obtain millions and millions of washed clean tax payer funded (and tax free!) income streams from pay-to-play sources in Ukraine and China....
some paperwork and TIME magazine covers - woooosh - so bad.
(
Drago said: "Reminscent of the years-long daily Inga "You Dont Know What Mueller Knows!"
That's hilarious. Recall when Mueller testified before congress he was a befuddled old coot. He was fortunate to remember his own name, let alone the Steele Dossier. He made Bidas Touch look articulate.
"Seemingly Trump has a lot to hide."
As is frequently the case, Igna has seized the wrong end of the stick. Trump has asked that the affidavit supporting the search warrant be published. DOJ has resisted. Seemingly, DOJ has something to hide.
Goobfly states as fact -"she made up her mind"
Q: As a staunch Crook Biden supporter - do you have special powers that grant you mind-reading capabilities?
Likely Too late for the Special Master to matter. Over the weeks since the raid, the FBI could have:
1. Destroyed documents that are incriminating against the FBI, the DOJ and/or the Biden administration.
and/or
2. Destroyed documents that are exculpatory for Trump.
and/or
3. Planted documents that are incriminating against Trump.
As crazy as the above scenarios sound, at this point does anyone doubt that the FBI is not above this level of corruption?
Russia Collusion Truther and Hillary Hoax Dossier Dead Ender Inga: "Seemingly Trump has a lot to hide."
"Seemingly"
LOL
Like the Pee Tape?
What a dolt you are!
Jean E
"I'm not an attorney, but on all the TV shows involving lawyers, appointing a Special Master seems to be standard practice."
Absolutely. I recall the judge granting Perry Mason's motion to appoint a Special master over Hamilton Burger's vigorous objection. Think I saw one appointed in an episode of an episode of Matlock too.
have not FBI already made copies of all seized materials already?
I’m not a lawyer but I have watched a lot of crime dramas…:). If the FBI/DOJ copies and widely distributes docs from MAL, any case they think they have would have to be thrown out. They have to maintain chain of custody or the defense will claim contamination and they’d be right.
Also, given the overbroad scope of the search warrant, I think the Judge is correct in this decision. She’ll be able to review the basis for the search warrant to begin with. For instance, why is the FBI taking magazines if they’re worried about national security? Those items are by definition public information. The warrant judge should have recused himself.
PB: "Hahaha! Like that'll stop the FBI. They've have more than enough time to photo/copy everything and distribute it widely."
Au contraire! The DOJ-NSD and FBI seek to HIDE all evidence of their criminal russia hoax behavior so they wont be photo-copying anything.
No, no, no.
They will be going Full Hillary and destroying evidence and then continue conjuring up more lies to "leak" to their New Soviet Democratical allies in the media.
Bruce - I disagree with your assessment of a possible appeal. The trial court committed clear error on a purely legal question - whether trump can prevent DOJ from seeing government records. All the fluff in the opinion is immaterial.
The judge told DOJ to immediately stop its investigation. So eg, forensic work on the documents (eg fingerprints) must cease immediately. No more grand jury sessions for months.
Judge is a complete quack.
Word on news radio: Garland is going to appeal it.
If the special master determines that a number of the seized items (clothing) do not meet any of the descriptions in the warrant, could those agents be charged with theft?
I would think that the specificity requirement is there to prevent something like that.
Readering: Hard to get good law clerks when your chambers are located in Fort Pierce, Fl.
Who is this classist, bigoted, and stupid fuck?
Watched the two-hour Navalny documentary last night on CNN. Navalny is/ was the opposition leader of Vlad the Impaler. Navalny is currently residing in a Russian prison after having attempted a triumphal entry back to Russia. The parallels of his treatment to the Feds treatment of Trump is astonishing. Secret police and all (read: FSB = CIA /FBI).
Maybe the FBI will now have some free time to complete the Hunter/Big Guy investigation they've been stonewalling for two years. LOL, yeah crazy right?
At least when they were investigating Hilary you knew they were working on the case by the number of immunity deals they were offering up front to anyone with "D" after their name.
Mutaman trots out Perry Mason as his go-to legal authority. It's not the dumbest thing I've read today but it's in the top three.
“No Special Master has the security clearance to examine all papers,”
But the FBI had plenty of people with sufficient security clearance to dump them on the floor, photograph them, and leak the pictures to the press. Don’t you realize that it violated the espionage act to leak to the press that nuclear secrets could be laying around in Florida? What if the FBI missed one and Iran sent in a team to find it in the garbage dump!
“Hard to get good law clerks when your chambers are located in Fort Pierce, Fl.” MEOWW! Lawyers are really bitchy, teenagers at the cool kid table.
Seemingly Trump has a lot to hide.
That makes no sense, Inga.
Can you explain how the appointment of a Special Master allows Trump to hide things?
He will be getting back a lot of his stuff and Melania will get her panties back as well.
It's the DOJ that wants to hide stuff, so they can selectively leak to their propaganda arm.
Readering said...
"Friday deadline seems unrealistic"
Only four days write and to file a motion- what madness is this?
‘The trial court committed clear error on a purely legal question - whether trump can prevent DOJ from seeing government records.’
Which government records? Trump’s personal medical records, his tax documents, personal correspondence, items of clothing, and framed covers of Time magazine?
Supposedly the security cameras inside MAL were not turned off as the FBI requested. It's all on tape but the FBI really doesn't know what they actually captured. Did one of the agents plant something? Was there inappropriate behavior while searching personal effects? Were there incriminating remarks? Plenty there to cause some sleepless nights.
Trump, you magnificent bastard!
The FBI and the DOJ have been caught repeatedly lying to the courts to spy on enemies of the Regime.
But the swamp Judges didn't mind the lying because the FBI wanted to illegally spy on Trump supporters.
And the same disgusting shithead Biden supporters are here supporting these people as they are caught lying again.
These people are purely driven by will to power. They are completely amoral and dishonest.
These people are completely incompatible with a free society.
“Bruce - I disagree with your assessment of a possible appeal. The trial court committed clear error on a purely legal question - whether trump can prevent DOJ from seeing government records. All the fluff in the opinion is immaterial. “
“The judge told DOJ to immediately stop its investigation. So eg, forensic work on the documents (eg fingerprints) must cease immediately. No more grand jury sessions for months.”
“Judge is a complete quack”
You know none of that. You don’t know if Trump had a single document that he shouldn’t have. All that you have are leaked statements from FBI and DOJ e employees whose organizations (FBI CD, DOJ NSD) routinely have lied to federal judges before (4 FISA warrants on Carter Page, etc). Half the country wouldn’t believe them if they said red was red. Maybe they are honest. Maybe they aren’t. We don’t know, and neither do you. That’s why there was a special master ordered.
Lost in all this is that there never was a legal justification for this unprecedented and outrageous violation of the 4th Amendment in the first place. The Judge should have ordered all of the documents returned to Trump immediately. Full stop.
If there are "classified" documents in Trump's possession, this was at most a records act violation (that was the pretense for the "raid.") The issues were being negotiated, and if there were disputes those could and should be adjudicated in a court of law.
If (contrary to the stated purpose for obtaining the warrant), there is some more sinister and dangerous content in the records sought--which called for immediate action and the extraordinary actions of raid and seizure of the former President's home and property--then let's hear about it.
Isn't the time long past for the "emergency" to be explained? If Trump committed crimes purportedly justifying this action, then indict him.
Friday is the deadline for the two sides to meaningfully confer and submit a joint filing that includes: a list of proposed candidates; a detailed proposed order of appointment in accordance with FRCP 53(b), outlining, inter alia, the special master’s duties and limitations consistent with the Order, ex parte communication abilities, schedule for review, and compensation. Any points of substantive disagreement should be identified in the joint filing.
Of course DOJ could seek expedited appeal and a stay from either court, but that would be tough to obtain before Friday too.
The Judge noted that Joe Biden requested the FBI have access to the documents seized.
BIDEN: “I didn’t have any advanced notice. None, zero, not one single bit.”
So the Biden Regime, the DOJ, and the FBI are caught lying again.
And again.
And again.
It is monotonous.
And the same dumbshits are here supporting these repeated liars because they agree with the lying.
They will do anything to get power over the people they want to rule.
“Bruce - I disagree with your assessment of a possible appeal. The trial court committed clear error on a purely legal question - whether trump can prevent DOJ from seeing government records. All the fluff in the opinion is immaterial.
“The judge told DOJ to immediately stop its investigation. So eg, forensic work on the documents (eg fingerprints) must cease immediately. No more grand jury sessions for months.”
What is the urgency? The coming election in two months? The government has all the documents, including many that it had no right to. Trump isn’t going to be able to leak any of our nuclear secrets to anyone, with the government having everything. We know 5he Taint team wasn’t adequately protecting Trump’s interests. So, of course a special master.
Inga said...
Seemingly Trump has a lot to hide. So this judge made a ruling that will delay things…but the Feds already know what are in the documents he stole(?). He can try to delay the investigation, he won’t be able to stop it. Eventually it will be known to Americans what Trump was up to.
The 80 IQ take. You are a truly stupid person.
The special master is going to go through the items seized and look for things that were not on the warrant and for documents covered by attorney client privilege.
This is what usually happens. But for some reason the FBI and the DOJ don't want anyone to know what they took from Trump.
Only a moron like Inga thinks this is Trump hiding anything.
Everyone knows it it the FBI and the DOJ who are hiding behind redactions and lies.
gadfly said...
No Special Master has the security clearance to examine all papers, which likely means that Trump no longer had clearance to even have possessed the documents after 1/21/21.
There is more but the fact is that this is a delaying tactic, not a defensive action and Aileen Cannon knows this.
Trump declassified all of the documents.
He had the legal power to do that and every president before him did exactly the same thing.
There were no classified documents seized from his residence.
None.
You are just a truly stupid loser who hides from reality.
Steve said: " the times boils that biography down to Trump appointee." A line our hostess, for whatever reason, chose to call attention to.
'He will be getting back a lot of his stuff and Melania will get her panties back as well.'
Not sure that she wants them back...
but that's what you get with cut'n'paste trolls.
They're just following the talking points from the their cult leaders on high. Too low on the totem pole to be allowed original thoughts.
jim5301 said...
Bruce - I disagree with your assessment of a possible appeal. The trial court committed clear error on a purely legal question - whether trump can prevent DOJ from seeing government records. All the fluff in the opinion is immaterial.
>>>>>> You fucking idiot. This isn't a trial court! You haven't even even properly framed a "legal" question, as yours assumes what it has not proved.
>>>>>Our courts have specific sections dealing with the when's, why's and hows of appointing Special Masters regarding materials seized during searches.
>>>>>Trump has always claimed that some of the records in dispute, and then seized, are attorney-client privileged materials. Others are protected by "executive Privilege", in that Trump's successor wants access to matters NOBODY could get to when Trump was POTUS.
>>>>>Yet the DOJ wants them, very likely for political purposes.
>>>>>If true, they are NOT "government records". They would be PRIVATE materials not covered by the Presidential Records Act statute and not admissible in court.
>>>>>Those are the legal matters in dispute here.
"The judge told DOJ to immediately stop its investigation. So eg, forensic work on the documents (eg fingerprints) must cease immediately. No more grand jury sessions for months."
>>>>>moron. You didn't even get that right. See below:
Here's the judge's position:
Cannon ruled that the special master could review the seized materials for both attorney-client privilege and executive privilege, saying that the Supreme Court had not settled the question of whether a former president could assert executive privilege against the administration of the sitting president. Cannon also questioned the Justice Department’s contention that Trump has no property interest in any of the presidential records seized from his residence because they belong to the government -- not him. “That position calls for an ultimate judgment on the merits as to those documents and their designations,” Cannon said, adding that the government had already conceded that the search had resulted in the seizure of more than 500 pages of documents potentially covered by attorney-client privilege. The judge said in her Sept. 5 ruling that the government could continue to access the documents -- many of them bearing the nation’s highest classification markings -- for the limited purposes of conducting a national-security review that’s already underway.
>>>>>> You think Trump's fingerprints will NOT be on many of the documents seized? SNORT. And what if docs DON'T have his prints? What would that prove?
>>>>>>In any case, the judge ordered the Special Master to review the seized documents to determine which, if any, are not subject to PRA. Aside from a party being the former POTUS, that is hardly unprecedented.
>>>>>Have you never heard of the police or FBI unlawfully seizing evidence? And judges tossing them out in court?
>>>>>In summary, what an ill-schooled dope you are. You must still be in high school.
Sixth year senior, maybe?
It never ceases to amaze me how all the leftists truly desire to live in a country where the Government has all power and the people have no rights against the government.
Doesn't Inga, Gadfly, etc. realize that the kind of government powerful enough to do what they want can be turned against them easily?
“ Steve said: " the times boils that biography down to Trump appointee." A line our hostess, for whatever reason, chose to call attention to.”
I didn’t see it in the Times. I was curious and looked it up myself. That’s why there’s a link to Wikipedia.
I wonder whether Trump had the documents bate-stamped. You can't take documents out and put different documents in if they are bate-stamped.
Trump strikes me as the kind of guy who would have the documents bate-stamped.
It is amusing to note that our lefties are simultaneously claiming that this is a delaying tactic by Trump and the judge, and that the judge isn't giving the DOJ enough time to comply with her order regarding the special master review.
Get your talking points straight, folks.
“It’s ok judge we’ve already gone through everything and a Special Master is now moot” has to be one of the dumbest arguments ever wrt seized items in dispute.
Inga said...
Seemingly Trump has a lot to hide. So this judge made a ruling that will delay things…but the Feds already know what are in the documents he stole(?). He can try to delay the investigation, he won’t be able to stop it. Eventually it will be known to Americans what Trump was up to.
Biden relies on these people to prop up his theories about those who didn't vote for him.
Blogger jim5301 said...
Bruce - I disagree with your assessment of a possible appeal. The trial court committed clear error on a purely legal question - whether trump can prevent DOJ from seeing government records. All the fluff in the opinion is immaterial.
The bottom quintile of the population checks in with a comment.
Inga said...
Seemingly Trump has a lot to hide.
Surely you didn't mean to imply that there is no right to privacy, did you? Or are you prepared to allow any and all law enforcement agencies free rein to dig through all of your papers and financial records? Perhaps publish your tax returns and all supporting documents for the world to see? You don't have anything to hide, do you?
"For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you." Matthew 7:2
Happy Labor Day Inga 🏝
Recall when Mueller testified before congress he was a befuddled old coot. He was fortunate to remember his own name, let alone the Steele Dossier. He made Bidas Touch look articulate.
That's why Weissmann, who destroyed Arthur Anderson in a decision reversed by the Supreme Court 9-0, actually ran the "Russiagate" scam.
Most of the lefties here still believe the Hillary story.
Besides the question of an overbroad warrant which should be a fourth amendment issue there is the unstated issue of whether or not Trump had in his possession the original documents and that those documents were not copied and already in the possession of the government. As I understand it, a president being the executive branch in his person can simply declassify anything from the moment his terms starts to a moment before his term ends. Therefore Trump's argument that he declassified made those documents declassified and if Biden re-classified them he should have requested those documents be returned without all of the Stasi/KGB/Gestapo behavior.
To me its more a tell about the state of Howard and Ingas mind on what they dont comment on.
Just the other day, Joey was giving his 2 minutes of hate speech and he noticed someone in the crowd. "Hey Baby, how old are you?" I couldnt hear her answer. Joe replies, "oh, almost double digits".
So warm and fuzzy .......BABY.
“Bruce - I disagree with your assessment of a possible appeal. The trial court committed clear error on a purely legal question - whether trump can prevent DOJ from seeing government records. All the fluff in the opinion is immaterial. “
“The judge told DOJ to immediately stop its investigation. So eg, forensic work on the documents (eg fingerprints) must cease immediately. No more grand jury sessions for months. “
“Judge is a complete quack”
The first problem is that it isn’t clear that these are the only copies of these government documents. In the case of any document with classified markings (which may or may not still be classified), the odds of anyone of them being the only copy is very low, esp since he was an intelligence consumer, and rarely an intelligence creator.. Which is to say that Trump was not depriving the government of probably any of those documents. They very, very, likely had other copies (and typically the originals). Which means that what it is about is depriving Trump of the documents.
He may have some President Records, and it is intentionally confusing the two, which is the issue. Traditionally, an outgoing President is given wide latitude in determining what is a Presidential Record, subject to the PRA, and what isn’t. Not turning over documents that some bureaucrat thinks are covered by the PRA, and the President thinks aren’t, isn’t a criminal matter (and isn’t subject to felony Obstruction prosecution, no matter how hard Ben Whitte and LawFare argue to the contrary. It lacks both specific intent and materiality required by felony Obstruction.
Trump isn’t preventing the DOJ prosecutors from continuing their investigation until the Special Master has reviewed the documents. It is a duly nominated and confirmed Article III Judge. Claiming that she doesn’t have the power to do that isn’t going to work very well. Courts at her level order Special Masters on a routine basis in disputes just like this. claiming that she doesn’t have the power or authority to do this is getting you into Separation of Powers waters, and you can pretty well guarantee that the Judiciary is very protective of its powers, and will likely back her to the hilt.
Finally, I disagree as to standard of review - this is a preliminary matter. Plain error is mostly reserved for later matters, esp when a defendant is trying to challenge an adverse judgment. Trial is over, and overturning the verdict is limited to only the most egregious cases. So, I think that you would do better arguing abuse of discretion. What exactly was the Plain Error? Appointing a Special Master? District courts like hers commonly do so. Slowing down the prosecution in order to make sure that they aren’t using documents that they shouldn’t? Again, very common. The Plain Error would have been to go to court without giving the defendant the opportunity to challenge the evidence in the hands of the prosecution. She issued a temporary injunction, which is equitable relief. She dutifully went through the various factors to weigh before granting it, and found irreparable harm to Trump if she didn’t grant his motion, but did not find irreparable harm to the government if she did. Maybe the government didn’t make a compelling case that they would be irreparably harmed if the investigation was delayed long enough to vet the evidence they have. Or she didn’t believe them. In any case, this is the very type of decision where appeals courts rarely step in.
So - show us your work for Plain Error. What precisely was it? When you are claiming it on an appeal, you need to be precise, and not just waive your hands, yelling plain error”. Why do you think that is the proper standard, and what do you think it was?
"Blogger boatbuilder said...
It is amusing to note that our lefties are simultaneously claiming that this is a delaying
tactic by Trump and the judge, and that the judge isn't giving the DOJ enough time to
comply with her order regarding the special master review.
Get your talking points straight, folks.
9/5/22, 7:18 PM"
It is the Heisenberg political uncertainty principle at work no matter what is happening it is because Trump is bad and the DOJ/FBI/IRS.... is good in doing anything to destroy him.
I was about to comment that the discussion in this thread is useless -- but then I read Bruce Hayden (8:41pm). Thank you Bruce. My take: Let's wait until we know something before we declare that THE END OF THE REPUBLIC IS UPON US !!!!
Vance: "Doesn't Inga, Gadfly, etc. realize that the kind of government powerful enough to do what they want can be turned against them easily?"
The New Soviet Democraticals and their GOPe allies are banking on having all future elections very, very "fortified" with billions of Zuckerbucks so that any questions of future "turnabout is fair play" are rendered quite moot.
"Under the statutory scheme established by the PRA, the decision to segregate personal materials from Presidential records is made by the President, during the President's term and in his sole discretion," Jackson wrote in her March 2012 decision, which was never appealed.
"Since the President is completely entrusted with the management and even the disposal of Presidential records during his time in office, it would be difficult for this Court to conclude that Congress intended that he would have less authority to do what he pleases with what he considers to be his personal records," she added.
Humperdink said...
" Mutaman trots out Perry Mason as his go-to legal authority. It's not the dumbest thing I've read" today but it's in the top three."
You just can't make this stuff up.
As for the boys and girls on the government "Bash Trump" tag team being prevented from "seeing the top secret documents"==consider this. In the first place 30 agents went into Mar A Lago and came out with a bunch of documents--the agents "seizing" the documents saw them.
Okay maybe the FBI flatfoots couldn't recognize the significance of a document as they made their way through the house. Some smarter Feeb would have to consider the documents at length back at the office. But they've already done that, haven't they?
After all in opposing the motion for appointment of a special master the Feebs said, "There's no reason to do that. We've already reviewed all the documents." So the gubmint admits it's "seen the documents".
Well there's chest thumping on both sides like chimpanzees getting in to it.
Maybe the government didn’t make a compelling case that they would be irreparably harmed if the investigation was delayed long enough to vet the evidence they have.
Maybe the "government" (in the person of the DOJ or FBI) couldn't make a compelling case for irreparable harm because the harm they would have had to claim would have been either exposure of their wrongdoing or loss of Congressional seats, and even in this new Era of Transparent Malice that's a little too close to the bone for them.
Folks have asserted that special masters are routine. The only major study I know of is from 2000. It calculated that special masters were used in 0.2% of federal cases. Doubt the MAL judge has prior experience. I encountered them twice in over 4 decades of mostly federal practice. Once to recommend a result for a trade secrets preliminary injunction motion and once to supervise discovery in a contentious, multi-defendant action. A third time the client and DOJ discussed using a special master to get away from a bad judge (DOJ claimed using an arbitrator would be unconstitutional), but the case settled first.
Once again the DOJ shows Trump to be smart, witty and clean as a whistle. Good characteristics for a president I'd say. Swing and a miss, Trump stuck them out.
@Readering - if that was really you - I was a patent attorney, and apparently was involved with social masters more times than you were. They were, not surprisingly, very large cases (because damages are typically based on a reasonable royalty of maybe a couple percent, and litigation costs were in the millions - small patent cases rarely go to trial for that reason). A rate of .1% (if accurate) doesn’t mean that much here. That’s because judges spend 90% of their time on 10% of their civil cases, and maybe 25% of their time is spent (at least at the state level) on their c ivil docket, and 75% on their criminal docket.
In any case here’s a quote by the infamously pro DOJ Andrew McCarthy:
There are no heroes in this drama. The Justice Department has been playing with fire from the start. Trump dragged his feet in seeking the special master, to the point that DOJ had nearly completed its privilege review by the time he finally filed his court action. Cannon, whom Trump appointed to the district court in 2020, inexplicably allowed nine days to elapse after first signaling her inclination to appoint a special master, during which she wrung her hands about whether to order the appointment and, more significantly, failed to rule on Trump’s application for a court-ordered suspension of the Justice Department’s review process and directive that DOJ cease using documents Trump claimed were privileged in furtherance of its criminal investigation.
The Justice Department blithely assumed that Trump had no executive privilege even though this is an unsettled question in the law.
When a salient point of law is unclear, the responsible course for prosecutors is to flag the issue for the court and get a ruling before taking controversial actions. Instead, in seeking the search warrant, DOJ advised Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart that the filtering process that would be implemented in connection with documents seized in the search would screen only for attorney-client privileged documents, not executive privileged documents. The latter category is apt to be considerably more expansive. It does not appear that DOJ alerted Reinhart to the possibility that Trump could have a colorable executive-privilege claim, and there’s no indication that Reinhart raised the question on his own.
McCarthy tends to close his eyes from seeing malfeasance on the part of his former employer, the DOJ, unless he is slapped in the face with it. The DOJ went to a compliant magistrate judge, not an Article III judge, which they should have. Did they have something on him? Maybe. He switched sides from working for the DOJ to working for Jeffrey Epstein. And they had plenty on Epstein. Or maybe, being a former DOJ prosecutor, like McCarthy, he trusted his former employer. In any case, he issued a probably unconstitutionally (under the 4th Amdt) broad search warrant, that allowed the FBI to vacuum up everything that dated from Trump’s entire term of office. They promised him a taint team for attorney/client privileged documents, but not for w hat could legitimately be considered personal mementoes. And they could seize anything that was marked classified, whether it had been declassified, or not (and if it was removed under Trump’s orders, it was probably declassified). They didn’t bother to explain that their taint team and investigative team were office mates, coming from the same section, of the same branch, sharing the same branch chief, coffee pot, and water cooler.
The search warrant was abusive, so no surprise that the search was too. Trump’s attorneys were forbidden from overseeing the search. That normally doesn’t happen,and as McCarthy pointed out, the Trump team should have filed an emergency petition at that time with a real Article III judge. The FBI went through the entire residence, even searching Melania’s personal effects, because they could. Because the magistrate had given them a warrant that was entirely too broad, and provided no mechanism to rein them in.
In any case, the real Article III judge, Cannon, inherited a complete mess. The DOJ had, and was continuing to, violate Trump’s Constitutional rights. The Fed’s search warrant was based on the assumption that the successor President could override Executive Privilege for his predecessor. That means that his minions, the FBI could, and did, seize every critical decision Al document from his term in office, and then look through them for any wrongdoing. If this is allowed to work, expect the records from Biden and Obama to be blown open. Was this raid approved by the White House? Who there approved it? How about Crossfire Hurricane AND Midyear Exam? Did the Obama WH, or even Obama himself, approve not prosecuting Crooked Hillary for her illegal email server? How much did he know about the origins of the Steele Dossier? Inquiring minds want to know. There is essentially no such thing anymore as Executive Privilege, if the next President can waive it for his predecessor, and that strikes at the center of the Presidency. Which the DOJ blithely, or maybe even intentionally, failed to inform the magistrate about. My expectation is that appeals courts are going to have to step in and split the baby. Maybe too late for Trump though - the FBI has everything he had from his 4 years in office, and no doubt has reviewed much of it. If there is a single skeleton in his closet, expect the DOJ to use it against him - all based on the pretext that bureaucrats could determine what was a Presidential record, subject to the PRA,And they needed to seize everything to make sure they got what they wanted.
At this point, absent voiding the search warrant, and ordering the DOJ to return everything they seized from Trump, and not use it against him, she did the only other thing that she reasonably could - ordered a Special Master. My view is that it’s too late, and the barn door is being closed after the horses have all escaped. We shall see.
What about the fact that the Great Mar-a-Lago Panty Raid and Fishing Expedition itself grossly violated the Fourth Amendment? Shouldn't it all be thrown out? I'm not a Con Law prof, but Ann is (or was). How about a comment on this, Ann?
Bruce Hayden. There nay be an argument that Article III judges must issue search warrants, but for now it's the job of Article I judges. There may be an argument that former presidents retain executive privilege, but not in the face of the incumbent's contrary position that he return everything and that the FBI be authorized to go through it.
If you were a patent lawyer you saw more special masters than average. They are still not routine in federal courts. Will be interesting to see what happens if and when the parties do not agree on a candidate. I'm guessing most of the special masters you saw were attorneys. The MAL judge, less than 2 years on the job, a little green to know a lot of good attorney candidates here. My impression is that special masters became replaced by magistrate judges in recent decades. It would make more sense for a magistrate judge to be tasked here.
Bruce Hayden: "McCarthy tends to close his eyes from seeing malfeasance on the part of his former employer, the DOJ, unless he is slapped in the face with it"
McCarthy doesn't just "close his eyes". He covers his ears and yells and stomps his feet to avoid the obvious corruption of his beloved pals and buddies at our Stasi-ified DOJ/FBI.
Not to worry though. It only takes about 3 or 4 years for our conflicted and wobbly Andy to reluctantly come to the correct conclusion and then to write about it very gently with the softest assessment possible.
It's different this time because shut up!
“Bruce - I disagree with your assessment of a possible appeal. The trial court committed clear error on a purely legal question - whether trump can prevent DOJ from seeing government records. All the fluff in the opinion is immaterial”
For the attorneys here - how does the DOJ appeal this ruling? It’s very obviously a preliminary order, and those aren’t usually appealable.
"For the attorneys here - how does the DOJ appeal this ruling? It’s very obviously a preliminary order, and those aren’t usually appealable. "
Parties have the right to appeal an order granting or denying injunctive relief.
Includes preliminary injunction, so appealable. DOJ expressly requested court to perform pi analysis.
AG Barr of all people just opined decision wrong and DOJ should appeal.
Why would anyone be against a neutral party making sure that the very same people who lied to multiple FISA courts and doctored evidence against this same person are not up to their same illegal behavior?
It seems like the only way millions of Americans can have any faith in the outcome, although I think it's to late, because those scum bags have likely already done what they wanted to, which was likely the very reason for the raid in the first place.
@Readering - I don’t trust Barr’s judgement here. He was the AG, and is invested in their honesty, despite plenty of evidence his last time around as AG that they often aren’t. They were his people. And he likely felt obligated to protect their reputation.
We shall see how far an appeal gets. I (no surprise to you) feel that her order was on solid ground. The key question, I think, is the harm done to each party, if they are right, and the other party is wrong. The downside if Trump is right, is that the DOJ will have access to documents they legally shouldn’t, in building their case against him. If the Government is right, then their harm is having to delay using those documents. Irreparable harm on his side. Minimal harm on theirs. In order for the appeals court to reverse here, they are going to have to, essentially say “if Trump is right, and the Government has more documents than they should, if they directly, or indirectly use any of them, an exclusionary order will be sufficient”.
For the government to win here, I think that they are going to have to rely on winning on legal, not equitable grounds. She was the one on the ground. She weighed the evidence before her, determined the equities, justifying her decisions, etc. Appeals Courts rarely overrule lower courts on evidentiary grounds, including, as here, weighing the equities. And, as we discussed earlier, while special masters are not common, they are not that uncommon either, in dealing with evidentiary issues, esp as here, when the special master would merely guarantee that the government only gets to use the evidence they are legally entitled to. Does that mean that, by opposing the special master, you want the government to get to use evidence that they are not entitled to? Or that the appointment might delay an indictment until after the election two months from now?
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